20 ms·

Berkeley attempted this and it was recently overturned: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-californias-gas-ban/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/

Berkeley attempted this and it was recently overturned: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-californias-gas-ban/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo... California's electric grid is in horrendous shape. We can barely keep the power on in the summertime, especially when wildfires happen. When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ?

jrockway 3y ago
A bigger problem is getting a feed to your house that can handle your hot water heater, stove, washing machine, and electric car charging all at once. That's rather impractical in some areas, so there is some work to coordinate between the appliances so they can share a smaller feed. The way some stoves are participating is that they charge a battery at relatively low current all the time, and then cook from the battery at high current when the half-hour a day that you cook comes. That way you don't need a special circuit, and can cook while your hot water heater or washing machine is running. The added benefit is that your stove is now a UPS basically, so you can cook while the power's out. (I believe some can share power with other appliances, i.e. keep your refrigerator running for a while.) I have a gas range and it doesn't work when the electricity is off. If that's your contingency plan, check that a safety valve doesn't close when power is lost.
- orra 3y ago
  > If that's your contingency plan, check that a safety valve doesn't close when power is lost. And for good reason. Gas cookers require ventilation, to prevent carbon monoxide build up. An electric extractor fan won't work during a power cut.
  - im3w1l 3y ago
    Well you could open a window.
    - galleywest200 3y ago
      In the middle of the night while you are asleep?
      - xboxnolifes 3y ago
        Why is your stove on while you sleep?
        WalterBright 3y ago
        It's probably connected to the internet, downloading critical updates to the burner software and ads to display while you're cooking.
    - orra 3y ago
      Sure, but my point is to remember to do that. Extractor fans are for more than extracting the smell of onions or fish.
  - earthling8118 3y ago
    It's very bold of you to assume that my kitchen has ventilation at all. There's an electric extractor fan that just blows the air back in your face. I've seen other people's place where they don't even have that charade. I'd love to have a real setup. Unfortunately I've not been given that option and it is the same for many others.
  - jaclaz 3y ago
    I don't know how the codes are where you live, but in EU the norms are for natural ventilation in kitchens where gas stoves are used.
- SigmundA 3y ago
  Worst case at 240v : Electric hot water heater = 20 amps Electric stove = 50 amps all burners on and oven Washing machine = 15 amps Car charger = 50 amps Total = 135 amps Standard residential service in the US = 200 amps split phase @ 240v Whats the problem?
  - ou8_1_2 3y ago
    All the other 15 amp circuits people take for granted for things like lights, the clothes dryer and the heat/cooling system you left off your list (heat pump + air handler + emergency heat coils)... Add in the 80% rule and 200amps doesn't go as far as one might hope in a gas free-house.
    - rcme 3y ago
      I run my washer and dryer on a single 15 amp circuit. Heat pump dryers are very efficient.
    - radicaldreamer 3y ago
      There are some induction stove startups that are using batteries to not only not require 240v hookups but perform even better than a standard induction stove... the idea is that with cheap battery technology you can take advantage of the fact that not everything in your house will be running and charging at the same time.
    - greenthrow 3y ago
      The 80% rule is for running circuits and for breakers. It has nothing to do with actual load capacity. I.e. with 200A service you can have well beyond 200A nominal worth of breakers in your box (250A), but when all those things are running it should still use 200A or less if the 80% rule was followed.
    - SigmundA 3y ago
      I did not make the list, I was replying to the list given. None of those devices pull the rated amount continuous except may the car charger which can be adjusted for less draw / longer charge time if needed. Simply scheduling car charing for overnight would eliminate any issue, even so there is plenty of headroom on a typical residential system.
- gladiatr72 3y ago
  No matches?
- hedora 3y ago
  I don’t think it’s impractical to upgrade service lines. It is, however, impractical to get PG&E to approve the upgrade. (For us, that process cost about 3 years and $10K. They ran a wire 6 feet from an existing transformer to a pole we had to install ourselves). When they pass these laws, they should come with an SLA for the utility provider to approve “engineering” plans for the utility hookup and whatever transformer upgrades are required utility-side. There should be a ~ $250 per day fine, payable in cash to the homeowner once the SLA is exceeded. That’s roughly 2x normal homeowner costs due to delay of construction approvals (and therefore financing / alternative housing costs for those days) and using gas generators to power the site.
  - danans 3y ago
    > (For us, that process cost about 3 years and $10K. They ran a wire 6 feet from an existing transformer to a pole we had to install ourselves). Must have been a while ago because in 2021 they charged me $0 (not a typo) to go from 100A to 200A. It took just a month or so to arrange.
    - nuancebydefault 3y ago
      It's really amazing how people can talk about 200 amps as if it's nothing. We have a household installation of 40 amps (220) and last year there were months that cost 400 euros per month on electricity, and we are not heavy electricity users (we have no electric cloth dryer but have a small robot mower tho) It is almost like talking about 400HP cars/suvs, my 3 cylinder car is doing just fine at 84 kW max. Am I being pedantic?
      - mschuster91 3y ago
        You're talking in Euros... we have 230V power, while Americans and a few other holdouts still use 110V. The problem is, the lower the voltage the more current you need - an 1 kW vacuum draws 9 amps in the US, but 4.5 in Europe. The unit of billing - kW/h - however remains the same.
        3y ago
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  > … getting a feed to your house that can handle your hot water heater, stove, washing machine, and electric car charging all at once. This wasn’t on my radar as being a thing. What type of service is typical out there? Where I am, 200A is fairly normal and I haven’t really perceived of the concept of not having enough electricity to run a family as a thing. Do people trip the main breaker more than “almost never” out there?
- nostrademons 3y ago
  (Heat pump) Hot water heaters and washing machines are not major power draws. Some rough figures on power consumption of typical appliances, from most to least: Continuous-flow electric water heater: 20 kW Heat pump or central air, big home: 12-15 kW EV charger: 7 kW Electric tanked water heater or hybrid water heater in electric mode: 7.2 kW Clothes dryer with heating element on: 5 kW Heat pump or central air, small home: 3-4 kW Electric oven: 3-5 kW Induction range: 1.8 kW Instapot: ~1.5 kW Toaster oven: 1-1.5 kW Electric kettle: 1 kW Microwave: 1.2 kW Dishwasher: ~500-1000 W Heat pump water heater: ~600W Washing machine: 500 W Vacuum cleaner: 200-300 W Home server or desktop: 100-200 W Box fan or air purifier: 100 W Laptop on fast charge: 65W Laptop on slow charge: 30W LED light bulb: 12-15W Cell phone charger: 6W For reference, 200A electrical service can supply up to 24 kW of power, and even 120A service in older houses is good for about 14.4 kW. Individually coordinating appliance loads or including a battery with each appliance seems like an inefficient, expensive and unnecessary extra step. Basically, all you need to do is a.) charge your EVs at night when nothing else is running b.) don't use electric water heaters unless they're heat pumps and c.) insulate your home if you're using heat pump HVAC. All of which you should be doing anyway. The kitchen appliances are easily manageable if the EV and HVAC are not running at the same time, and everything else is rounding error. There might be some benefit to grid-coordinating EV charging and heat pump HVAC operation, particularly since these are the cases where naive loads all hit the grid at the same time, and they already come with batteries included (literal ones for EVs, thermal batteries for HVAC). For smaller appliances it's totally unnecessary though.
galleywest200 3y ago
Most states in this the country has less than 50% gas stove usage. This would not be an issue in most states. CA, NY, NJ can catch up to the rest of us. https://www.eia.gov/consumption/residential/data/2020/state/pdf/State%20Appliances.pdf https://www.eia.gov/consumption/residential/data/2020/state/...
gladiatr72 3y ago
Grilling over slagged e-waste
hedora 3y ago
Most people around here buy enough battery or generators to keep the power on. PG&E is way below one nine of availability this year, but the outlets inside our house are at 6 nines followed by an eight. Granted, once the propane rationing started, a few of our neighbors lost power for extended periods of time (weeks). The phone company doesn’t maintain internet if the power is out, but there is starlink, and fiber co-ops are starting to spring up. This is the SF Bay Area, so it’s pretty much a third world country if you measure things by quality of government services. I assume this isn’t typical for most other parts of the country.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  > a third world country if you measure things by quality of government services And yet Californians pay enormous taxes.
  - peter422 3y ago
    Californians actually pay lower overall taxes compared to other states due to low property taxes. Also, my power in San Francisco has probably been out for no more than 6 hours over the last 10 years. I don't know how many 9s that is, but it's more than 1.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      This seems to indicate otherwise https://www.prudential.com/financial-education/tax-burden-by-state https://www.prudential.com/financial-education/tax-burden-by...
      - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
        Mileage varies a lot in California. A high-income single person who just bought a place is paying a lot more than an older couple who have lived in the same home for 4 decades. To critique your link based on its footnotes: > 1 Calculated based on “State Individual Income Tax Rates and Brackets for 2020” from the Tax Foundation and “Median Household Income by State: 2018 and 2019” according to the U.S. Census Bureau. What is the distribution of households in each state by marital and dependent status? > 2 Calculated based on “Property Taxes by State” from WalletHub and “Median Home Values Across the U.S.” from Experian. Various propositions in California affect actual property taxes. In the chart in your link the property tax tax burden is shown the same for California and Texas based on Median income, but the actual property tax rate in Texas is almost double that in California (at least last I checked, a couple of years ago). Housing in California has just been more expensive compared to income, which is a con in affordabilty, but a pro in net worth for property owners (especially those who have owned for a long time, and thus pay lower taxes on their primary residence). I've got nothing to say about the sales tax burden, except to wonder how much of the "per capita personal consumption expenditures" are taxable transactions, and how much aren't. I've got no clue here though.
danans 3y ago
> When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ? How about a little butane stove? They work great at hotel omelette bars! Or a Coleman stove? It's not that big a deal to cook when the power is out, really.
- throwawaymaths 3y ago
  People downvote but I went to REI to get a dual purpose propane stove for both camping purposes and emergency purposes. At that moment there was another person in the store that was buying one just for backup. Luckily, haven't had to use it for emergencies yet (and successfully deployed it car camping).
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  Well you prove the point. Gas is necessary when the power is out.
  - danans 3y ago
    My point is that backup cooking solutions for when the power is out are both cheap and convenient. You don't need to build a wood fire in the backyard just to cook.
- crooked-v 3y ago
  Or just a tinfoil tray, a wire rack, and some candles. You're not going to really cook that way, but it should be more than enough to heat up some canned food or ramen or whatever.
  - giardini 3y ago
    Add a few bags of charcoal and you're set to BBQ some gooood ribs or steak there! And the candles are nice for lighting.
CircleSpokes 3y ago
>Berkeley attempted this and it was recently overturned: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo... There is a legal difference between a state banning it and a city. States have far more powers that cities don't (unless the state delegates that power which they often do)
- DannyBee 3y ago
  In this case it would not matter, the ruling says it's pre-empted by federal law. It would still be pre-empted by federal law even if the state did it.
0xdead8ead 3y ago
Eugene tried this as well. City council passed it without input from the community and is facing backlash. Since the 9th circuit decision, the ordinance has been called into question. https://www.bendbulletin.com/business/eugene-s-natural-gas-ban-faces-uncertain-future-with-federal-appeals-decision-in-california/article_8d31907f-9d81-5996-9f19-117a917a5fe2.html https://www.bendbulletin.com/business/eugene-s-natural-gas-b... The community has since generated enough signatures to put the ban to a public vote that will be voted on in November. Anecdotally, I'd say, most my neighbors are against the ban, judging from the names on the petition that I signed when they dropped through. Personally, I believe folks should have the liberty to choose the best solution for their energy needs. I do a bit of home brewing, and I can say, without question, gas is superior for heating a large quantity of water quickly and keeping it at temp throughout the process. I even looked into electric brew kettles and >10G vessels require a dedicated 240V circuit. Taking this all into account, I'm not sure I'll be buying / building within city limits. That or I'll just move to using my own methane composting biogas bladder. I'd love to see the greenies tell me I can't make my own gas in my back yard via composting.
- peteradio 3y ago
  Eugene is way past its prime unfortunately. There used to be a giant festering pit in the middle of downtown, now it looks worse.
- brianwawok 3y ago
  My best source of heat is burning animals bones, can I be your neighbor?
  - 0xdead8ead 3y ago
    Anytime, neighbor. But, for when they come for your natural gas line — https://www.homebiogas.com/ https://www.homebiogas.com/
- Symbiote 3y ago
  (The site is blocked in the EU.) Since the NY ban is for new construction, wouldn't the obvious thing be to install more 240V circuits in the new buildings?
gnopgnip 3y ago
Most modern gas stoves require power as well, look at the most popular GE or Samsung models
mschuster91 3y ago
> When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? You can't assume that gas supply works in a power outage. Some modern gas stoves depend on external electricity for active power regulation or flame surveillance, and the compressors along the line require electricity as well to function - which was one of the problems in the Texas power outage IIRC, as the gas peaker plants couldn't get powered on because the gas grid compressors were offline. Keep a camping stove for emergency scenarios, way more reliable and if you're running out of gas you can always walk to the next open hardware store.
devmunchies 3y ago
> When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? I tried this and a neighbor called CalFire on me since its illegal when its not a "burn day". It seems the solutions are to have: - a 5 gallon propane tank in the garage - a BBQ in the back yard - your own batteries - a generator (also useful for refrigeration) I have about 20 gallons of gas in my garage that is good for my generator. I use the gas for my motorcycle so they get refreshed regularly.
- youngNed 3y ago
  > I tried this and a neighbor called CalFire > I have about 20 gallons of gas in my garage I'm with your neighbor on this one
  - devmunchies 3y ago
    The fire pit is like 40 yards from the garage. Plus most people have 20+ gallons of gas in their garage... in their car.
ricardobayes 3y ago
Ask the Lebanese, I guess. They have electricity off more than have it on. Every house there has a generator and some have solar panels.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  A generator running on gasoline
  - danny_codes 3y ago
    Would you rather have: A) Burn gas at home 2 times a year for a couple hours. B) Burn gas many/most days for many hours. I fail to see how B is better?
danny_codes 3y ago
Pg&e runs both gas and electric for Berkeley. They are for-profit. It is in pg&e's best interest to keep demand for direct natural gas. It's in their best interest to keep the electric grid unstable so that people will be tricked into supporting direct natural gas. Fortunately, pg&e has enough regulatory capture and marketing to trick regulators into letting them rob taxpayers and trick taxpayers into docility. The issue lies not with a natural gas ban. The issue lies with having a for-profit monopoly in charge of all energy production and supply.
Tiktaalik 3y ago
yes a BBQ does sound like a perfectly good (and fun) solution to this minor hypothetical problem.

jrockway 3y ago

A bigger problem is getting a feed to your house that can handle your hot water heater, stove, washing machine, and electric car charging all at once. That's rather impractical in some areas, so there is some work to coordinate between the appliances so they can share a smaller feed. The way some stoves are participating is that they charge a battery at relatively low current all the time, and then cook from the battery at high current when the half-hour a day that you cook comes. That way you don't need a special circuit, and can cook while your hot water heater or washing machine is running. The added benefit is that your stove is now a UPS basically, so you can cook while the power's out. (I believe some can share power with other appliances, i.e. keep your refrigerator running for a while.) I have a gas range and it doesn't work when the electricity is off. If that's your contingency plan, check that a safety valve doesn't close when power is lost.

orra 3y ago
> If that's your contingency plan, check that a safety valve doesn't close when power is lost. And for good reason. Gas cookers require ventilation, to prevent carbon monoxide build up. An electric extractor fan won't work during a power cut.
- im3w1l 3y ago
  Well you could open a window.
  - galleywest200 3y ago
    In the middle of the night while you are asleep?
    - xboxnolifes 3y ago
      Why is your stove on while you sleep?
      - WalterBright 3y ago
        It's probably connected to the internet, downloading critical updates to the burner software and ads to display while you're cooking.
  - orra 3y ago
    Sure, but my point is to remember to do that. Extractor fans are for more than extracting the smell of onions or fish.
- earthling8118 3y ago
  It's very bold of you to assume that my kitchen has ventilation at all. There's an electric extractor fan that just blows the air back in your face. I've seen other people's place where they don't even have that charade. I'd love to have a real setup. Unfortunately I've not been given that option and it is the same for many others.
- jaclaz 3y ago
  I don't know how the codes are where you live, but in EU the norms are for natural ventilation in kitchens where gas stoves are used.
SigmundA 3y ago
Worst case at 240v : Electric hot water heater = 20 amps Electric stove = 50 amps all burners on and oven Washing machine = 15 amps Car charger = 50 amps Total = 135 amps Standard residential service in the US = 200 amps split phase @ 240v Whats the problem?
- ou8_1_2 3y ago
  All the other 15 amp circuits people take for granted for things like lights, the clothes dryer and the heat/cooling system you left off your list (heat pump + air handler + emergency heat coils)... Add in the 80% rule and 200amps doesn't go as far as one might hope in a gas free-house.
  - rcme 3y ago
    I run my washer and dryer on a single 15 amp circuit. Heat pump dryers are very efficient.
  - radicaldreamer 3y ago
    There are some induction stove startups that are using batteries to not only not require 240v hookups but perform even better than a standard induction stove... the idea is that with cheap battery technology you can take advantage of the fact that not everything in your house will be running and charging at the same time.
  - greenthrow 3y ago
    The 80% rule is for running circuits and for breakers. It has nothing to do with actual load capacity. I.e. with 200A service you can have well beyond 200A nominal worth of breakers in your box (250A), but when all those things are running it should still use 200A or less if the 80% rule was followed.
  - SigmundA 3y ago
    I did not make the list, I was replying to the list given. None of those devices pull the rated amount continuous except may the car charger which can be adjusted for less draw / longer charge time if needed. Simply scheduling car charing for overnight would eliminate any issue, even so there is plenty of headroom on a typical residential system.
gladiatr72 3y ago
No matches?
hedora 3y ago
I don’t think it’s impractical to upgrade service lines. It is, however, impractical to get PG&E to approve the upgrade. (For us, that process cost about 3 years and $10K. They ran a wire 6 feet from an existing transformer to a pole we had to install ourselves). When they pass these laws, they should come with an SLA for the utility provider to approve “engineering” plans for the utility hookup and whatever transformer upgrades are required utility-side. There should be a ~ $250 per day fine, payable in cash to the homeowner once the SLA is exceeded. That’s roughly 2x normal homeowner costs due to delay of construction approvals (and therefore financing / alternative housing costs for those days) and using gas generators to power the site.
- danans 3y ago
  > (For us, that process cost about 3 years and $10K. They ran a wire 6 feet from an existing transformer to a pole we had to install ourselves). Must have been a while ago because in 2021 they charged me $0 (not a typo) to go from 100A to 200A. It took just a month or so to arrange.
  - nuancebydefault 3y ago
    It's really amazing how people can talk about 200 amps as if it's nothing. We have a household installation of 40 amps (220) and last year there were months that cost 400 euros per month on electricity, and we are not heavy electricity users (we have no electric cloth dryer but have a small robot mower tho) It is almost like talking about 400HP cars/suvs, my 3 cylinder car is doing just fine at 84 kW max. Am I being pedantic?
    - mschuster91 3y ago
      You're talking in Euros... we have 230V power, while Americans and a few other holdouts still use 110V. The problem is, the lower the voltage the more current you need - an 1 kW vacuum draws 9 amps in the US, but 4.5 in Europe. The unit of billing - kW/h - however remains the same.
      - 3y ago
Waterluvian 3y ago
> … getting a feed to your house that can handle your hot water heater, stove, washing machine, and electric car charging all at once. This wasn’t on my radar as being a thing. What type of service is typical out there? Where I am, 200A is fairly normal and I haven’t really perceived of the concept of not having enough electricity to run a family as a thing. Do people trip the main breaker more than “almost never” out there?
nostrademons 3y ago
(Heat pump) Hot water heaters and washing machines are not major power draws. Some rough figures on power consumption of typical appliances, from most to least: Continuous-flow electric water heater: 20 kW Heat pump or central air, big home: 12-15 kW EV charger: 7 kW Electric tanked water heater or hybrid water heater in electric mode: 7.2 kW Clothes dryer with heating element on: 5 kW Heat pump or central air, small home: 3-4 kW Electric oven: 3-5 kW Induction range: 1.8 kW Instapot: ~1.5 kW Toaster oven: 1-1.5 kW Electric kettle: 1 kW Microwave: 1.2 kW Dishwasher: ~500-1000 W Heat pump water heater: ~600W Washing machine: 500 W Vacuum cleaner: 200-300 W Home server or desktop: 100-200 W Box fan or air purifier: 100 W Laptop on fast charge: 65W Laptop on slow charge: 30W LED light bulb: 12-15W Cell phone charger: 6W For reference, 200A electrical service can supply up to 24 kW of power, and even 120A service in older houses is good for about 14.4 kW. Individually coordinating appliance loads or including a battery with each appliance seems like an inefficient, expensive and unnecessary extra step. Basically, all you need to do is a.) charge your EVs at night when nothing else is running b.) don't use electric water heaters unless they're heat pumps and c.) insulate your home if you're using heat pump HVAC. All of which you should be doing anyway. The kitchen appliances are easily manageable if the EV and HVAC are not running at the same time, and everything else is rounding error. There might be some benefit to grid-coordinating EV charging and heat pump HVAC operation, particularly since these are the cases where naive loads all hit the grid at the same time, and they already come with batteries included (literal ones for EVs, thermal batteries for HVAC). For smaller appliances it's totally unnecessary though.

galleywest200 3y ago

Most states in this the country has less than 50% gas stove usage. This would not be an issue in most states. CA, NY, NJ can catch up to the rest of us. https://www.eia.gov/consumption/residential/data/2020/state/pdf/State%20Appliances.pdf https://www.eia.gov/consumption/residential/data/2020/state/...

gladiatr72 3y ago

Grilling over slagged e-waste

hedora 3y ago

Most people around here buy enough battery or generators to keep the power on. PG&E is way below one nine of availability this year, but the outlets inside our house are at 6 nines followed by an eight. Granted, once the propane rationing started, a few of our neighbors lost power for extended periods of time (weeks). The phone company doesn’t maintain internet if the power is out, but there is starlink, and fiber co-ops are starting to spring up. This is the SF Bay Area, so it’s pretty much a third world country if you measure things by quality of government services. I assume this isn’t typical for most other parts of the country.

WalterBright 3y ago
> a third world country if you measure things by quality of government services And yet Californians pay enormous taxes.
- peter422 3y ago
  Californians actually pay lower overall taxes compared to other states due to low property taxes. Also, my power in San Francisco has probably been out for no more than 6 hours over the last 10 years. I don't know how many 9s that is, but it's more than 1.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    This seems to indicate otherwise https://www.prudential.com/financial-education/tax-burden-by-state https://www.prudential.com/financial-education/tax-burden-by...
    - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
      Mileage varies a lot in California. A high-income single person who just bought a place is paying a lot more than an older couple who have lived in the same home for 4 decades. To critique your link based on its footnotes: > 1 Calculated based on “State Individual Income Tax Rates and Brackets for 2020” from the Tax Foundation and “Median Household Income by State: 2018 and 2019” according to the U.S. Census Bureau. What is the distribution of households in each state by marital and dependent status? > 2 Calculated based on “Property Taxes by State” from WalletHub and “Median Home Values Across the U.S.” from Experian. Various propositions in California affect actual property taxes. In the chart in your link the property tax tax burden is shown the same for California and Texas based on Median income, but the actual property tax rate in Texas is almost double that in California (at least last I checked, a couple of years ago). Housing in California has just been more expensive compared to income, which is a con in affordabilty, but a pro in net worth for property owners (especially those who have owned for a long time, and thus pay lower taxes on their primary residence). I've got nothing to say about the sales tax burden, except to wonder how much of the "per capita personal consumption expenditures" are taxable transactions, and how much aren't. I've got no clue here though.

danans 3y ago

> When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ? How about a little butane stove? They work great at hotel omelette bars! Or a Coleman stove? It's not that big a deal to cook when the power is out, really.

throwawaymaths 3y ago
People downvote but I went to REI to get a dual purpose propane stove for both camping purposes and emergency purposes. At that moment there was another person in the store that was buying one just for backup. Luckily, haven't had to use it for emergencies yet (and successfully deployed it car camping).
nonethewiser 3y ago
Well you prove the point. Gas is necessary when the power is out.
- danans 3y ago
  My point is that backup cooking solutions for when the power is out are both cheap and convenient. You don't need to build a wood fire in the backyard just to cook.
crooked-v 3y ago
Or just a tinfoil tray, a wire rack, and some candles. You're not going to really cook that way, but it should be more than enough to heat up some canned food or ramen or whatever.
- giardini 3y ago
  Add a few bags of charcoal and you're set to BBQ some gooood ribs or steak there! And the candles are nice for lighting.

CircleSpokes 3y ago

>Berkeley attempted this and it was recently overturned: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo... There is a legal difference between a state banning it and a city. States have far more powers that cities don't (unless the state delegates that power which they often do)

DannyBee 3y ago
In this case it would not matter, the ruling says it's pre-empted by federal law. It would still be pre-empted by federal law even if the state did it.

0xdead8ead 3y ago

Eugene tried this as well. City council passed it without input from the community and is facing backlash. Since the 9th circuit decision, the ordinance has been called into question. https://www.bendbulletin.com/business/eugene-s-natural-gas-ban-faces-uncertain-future-with-federal-appeals-decision-in-california/article_8d31907f-9d81-5996-9f19-117a917a5fe2.html https://www.bendbulletin.com/business/eugene-s-natural-gas-b... The community has since generated enough signatures to put the ban to a public vote that will be voted on in November. Anecdotally, I'd say, most my neighbors are against the ban, judging from the names on the petition that I signed when they dropped through. Personally, I believe folks should have the liberty to choose the best solution for their energy needs. I do a bit of home brewing, and I can say, without question, gas is superior for heating a large quantity of water quickly and keeping it at temp throughout the process. I even looked into electric brew kettles and >10G vessels require a dedicated 240V circuit. Taking this all into account, I'm not sure I'll be buying / building within city limits. That or I'll just move to using my own methane composting biogas bladder. I'd love to see the greenies tell me I can't make my own gas in my back yard via composting.

peteradio 3y ago
Eugene is way past its prime unfortunately. There used to be a giant festering pit in the middle of downtown, now it looks worse.
brianwawok 3y ago
My best source of heat is burning animals bones, can I be your neighbor?
- 0xdead8ead 3y ago
  Anytime, neighbor. But, for when they come for your natural gas line — https://www.homebiogas.com/ https://www.homebiogas.com/
Symbiote 3y ago
(The site is blocked in the EU.) Since the NY ban is for new construction, wouldn't the obvious thing be to install more 240V circuits in the new buildings?

gnopgnip 3y ago

Most modern gas stoves require power as well, look at the most popular GE or Samsung models

mschuster91 3y ago

> When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? You can't assume that gas supply works in a power outage. Some modern gas stoves depend on external electricity for active power regulation or flame surveillance, and the compressors along the line require electricity as well to function - which was one of the problems in the Texas power outage IIRC, as the gas peaker plants couldn't get powered on because the gas grid compressors were offline. Keep a camping stove for emergency scenarios, way more reliable and if you're running out of gas you can always walk to the next open hardware store.

devmunchies 3y ago

> When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? I tried this and a neighbor called CalFire on me since its illegal when its not a "burn day". It seems the solutions are to have: - a 5 gallon propane tank in the garage - a BBQ in the back yard - your own batteries - a generator (also useful for refrigeration) I have about 20 gallons of gas in my garage that is good for my generator. I use the gas for my motorcycle so they get refreshed regularly.

youngNed 3y ago
> I tried this and a neighbor called CalFire > I have about 20 gallons of gas in my garage I'm with your neighbor on this one
- devmunchies 3y ago
  The fire pit is like 40 yards from the garage. Plus most people have 20+ gallons of gas in their garage... in their car.

ricardobayes 3y ago

Ask the Lebanese, I guess. They have electricity off more than have it on. Every house there has a generator and some have solar panels.

nonethewiser 3y ago
A generator running on gasoline
- danny_codes 3y ago
  Would you rather have: A) Burn gas at home 2 times a year for a couple hours. B) Burn gas many/most days for many hours. I fail to see how B is better?

danny_codes 3y ago

Pg&e runs both gas and electric for Berkeley. They are for-profit. It is in pg&e's best interest to keep demand for direct natural gas. It's in their best interest to keep the electric grid unstable so that people will be tricked into supporting direct natural gas. Fortunately, pg&e has enough regulatory capture and marketing to trick regulators into letting them rob taxpayers and trick taxpayers into docility. The issue lies not with a natural gas ban. The issue lies with having a for-profit monopoly in charge of all energy production and supply.

Tiktaalik 3y ago

yes a BBQ does sound like a perfectly good (and fun) solution to this minor hypothetical problem.