7 ms·

Can't modern heat pumps work even in crazy cold climates now? I seem to remember seeing that some are rated for -20F nowadays.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
stathibus 4y ago
Some are, and some of those even live up to their temperature rating, but they are subject to wind chill and can also fail due to ice and snow build-up, so its not as good as it sounds.
- tamaharbor 4y ago
  What is the backup, resistance heating?
  - john_shafthair 4y ago
    Electric resistance heat is super inefficient. That's why it's often referred to as "emergency heat". Ironically the best combo is a heat pump + natural gas furnace as a backup. Best of both worlds. But here we are making those illegal so we can pretend to save the planet.
    - CydeWeys 4y ago
      > Ironically the best combo is a heat pump + natural gas furnace as a backup. Best of both worlds. But here we are making those illegal so we can pretend to save the planet. How does this work in practice though? The natural gas distribution lines don't pay for themselves. If they're only gonna be used in emergencies then they'll be crazy expensive. You have a lot of money by not having to run natural gas through a neighborhood at all. A more realistic backup in these types of places (which is used widely in the northeast) is heating fuel oil in a tank.
      - john_shafthair 4y ago
        I agree with everything you said except there has been a war on heating oil since before this tiff with natural gas. So even suggesting that is anathema because it would be career suicide for the politicians pushing this. You can certainly use an oil furnace as a second stage, though oil is more often used as a boiler for steam or hydronic.
        simfree 4y ago
        Storing heating oil is risky, expensive and is a dirty use of a property due to the need for an underground or above ground tank. Abatement of tank leaks can run into the millions as you have to dig up all soil contaminated by heating oil when the tank is retired, and tank retirement is a cost that holds up many property sales and redevelopment here in the Pacific Northwest.
        john_shafthair 4y ago
        That's not really true elsewhere. Using in-ground oil tanks is an antiquated practice that isn't used anymore. Any modern heating oil installation has the tanks either in the cellar or in the yard behind the house. Either one would immediately reveal a leak so it could be remedied quickly. Yes Seattle is full of shitty bungalows with in-ground oil tanks that have to be condemned, it is a problem and one of the many reasons Seattle sucks. I did a stint at AWS so know the area. You can get away with a heat pump or baseboard electric in Seattle because the outdoor temperature rarely dips below 30F in winter. Go to a place like Maine where the vast majority of houses use oil. There is no natural gas infrastructure and heating with electric is impractical. 30F is a 'warm' winter day. A heat pump cannot effectively deal with the frigid climate in the NE and electric space heating would be insanely expensive. Many thousands of homes are heating with oil in the northeast everyday and not turning their yards into superfund sites. There are many compromises that work for the milquetoast PNW that won't work elsewhere.
        8note 4y ago
        Without said "war on heating oil" suddenly it becomes cheap to install multiple heating systems in your house? What changes with it not being political suicide? Government subsidies paying to add oil infrastructure to houses and to pay for unused pipelines?
    - ryukafalz 4y ago
      > Electric resistance heat is super inefficient. That's why it's often referred to as "emergency heat". Yes, which is why it only kicks in when the heat pump isn't enough. Which is not most of the year!
      - rayiner 4y ago
        The problem is when it kicks in for everyone in the neighborhood at the same time on an especially cold night and causes a brown out. (Happened to me this winter.)
    - osigurdson 4y ago
      >> Electric resistance heat is super inefficient I know what you mean but it is actually nearly 100% efficient. The inefficient part is converting high entropy heat to low entropy electricity.
      - GeneralMayhem 4y ago
        Heat pumps are significantly >100% efficient, if measured as (heat energy brought inside)/(electrical energy consumed).
        osigurdson 4y ago
        Yes, because you are moving heat from one location to another. Same thing with a refrigerator.
    - 8note 4y ago
      If you actually had to pay for the methane leakage from having the interconnect, it would be cost prohibitive, even if they were legal.
john_shafthair 4y ago
Not when the power's out for days - as often happens in winter storms. You can run the blower and electronics of a natural gas furnace or boiler off a little camping generator for a week or even better a natural gas whole house unit in perpetuity. So you don't, you know, freeze to death.
- smileysteve 4y ago
  If you take the investment that is the infrastructure for gas lines (all underground) and do similar for most electricity then storms don't take out electricity and people don't die. Best of all, the total investment and maintenance actually decreases.
  - tomohawk 4y ago
    How about you get that done first, prove that its at least as reliable, and then start banning things?
    - greenthrow 4y ago
      Other countries have buried their power lines ages ago, and yes it is as reliable as gas, more so.
  - nonethewiser 4y ago
    But gas lines are already down. If it were as easy as you said then NY would already have no grid problems.
- JamisonM 4y ago
  "You can run the blower and electronics of a natural gas furnace or boiler off a little camping generator.." Likewise for a heat pump, right? Does this "power out for days after a winter storm" thing actually happen very often? I am from Manitoba and my worst-ever experience was 10-11 hours when it was very, very cold out in 35+ years.
  - 4y ago
reisse 4y ago
I lived in a building with heat pumps in Europe. In colder climate, they're loud. As in, LOUD. It's likely fine when you can install the external module somewhere on the roof (poor birds though), but in many apartment buildings you can only put it on the outer walls, and you can clearly hear the sound inside the flat. Internal modules that cycle air are also noisy, though less. I'm glad to pay the premium for silent heating.
- Maximus9000 4y ago
  There are quiet heat pumps available: https://homeinspectioninsider.com/are-all-heat-pumps-noisy-11-quietest-heat-pumps-reviewed/ https://homeinspectioninsider.com/are-all-heat-pumps-noisy-1...
- maccard 4y ago
  I'd hardly classify my gas boiler as silent.
- 8note 4y ago
  Americans already have heat pumps installed "air conditioning units" Burning stuff is also loud, but resistive heating is mostly quiet other than fan noise and metal containers creaking as they heat up/cool down
cwillu 4y ago
My city was only a couple degrees short of -40 this last winter.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

stathibus 4y ago

Some are, and some of those even live up to their temperature rating, but they are subject to wind chill and can also fail due to ice and snow build-up, so its not as good as it sounds.

tamaharbor 4y ago
What is the backup, resistance heating?
- john_shafthair 4y ago
  Electric resistance heat is super inefficient. That's why it's often referred to as "emergency heat". Ironically the best combo is a heat pump + natural gas furnace as a backup. Best of both worlds. But here we are making those illegal so we can pretend to save the planet.
  - CydeWeys 4y ago
    > Ironically the best combo is a heat pump + natural gas furnace as a backup. Best of both worlds. But here we are making those illegal so we can pretend to save the planet. How does this work in practice though? The natural gas distribution lines don't pay for themselves. If they're only gonna be used in emergencies then they'll be crazy expensive. You have a lot of money by not having to run natural gas through a neighborhood at all. A more realistic backup in these types of places (which is used widely in the northeast) is heating fuel oil in a tank.
    - john_shafthair 4y ago
      I agree with everything you said except there has been a war on heating oil since before this tiff with natural gas. So even suggesting that is anathema because it would be career suicide for the politicians pushing this. You can certainly use an oil furnace as a second stage, though oil is more often used as a boiler for steam or hydronic.
      - simfree 4y ago
        Storing heating oil is risky, expensive and is a dirty use of a property due to the need for an underground or above ground tank. Abatement of tank leaks can run into the millions as you have to dig up all soil contaminated by heating oil when the tank is retired, and tank retirement is a cost that holds up many property sales and redevelopment here in the Pacific Northwest.
        john_shafthair 4y ago
        That's not really true elsewhere. Using in-ground oil tanks is an antiquated practice that isn't used anymore. Any modern heating oil installation has the tanks either in the cellar or in the yard behind the house. Either one would immediately reveal a leak so it could be remedied quickly. Yes Seattle is full of shitty bungalows with in-ground oil tanks that have to be condemned, it is a problem and one of the many reasons Seattle sucks. I did a stint at AWS so know the area. You can get away with a heat pump or baseboard electric in Seattle because the outdoor temperature rarely dips below 30F in winter. Go to a place like Maine where the vast majority of houses use oil. There is no natural gas infrastructure and heating with electric is impractical. 30F is a 'warm' winter day. A heat pump cannot effectively deal with the frigid climate in the NE and electric space heating would be insanely expensive. Many thousands of homes are heating with oil in the northeast everyday and not turning their yards into superfund sites. There are many compromises that work for the milquetoast PNW that won't work elsewhere.
      - 8note 4y ago
        Without said "war on heating oil" suddenly it becomes cheap to install multiple heating systems in your house? What changes with it not being political suicide? Government subsidies paying to add oil infrastructure to houses and to pay for unused pipelines?
  - ryukafalz 4y ago
    > Electric resistance heat is super inefficient. That's why it's often referred to as "emergency heat". Yes, which is why it only kicks in when the heat pump isn't enough. Which is not most of the year!
    - rayiner 4y ago
      The problem is when it kicks in for everyone in the neighborhood at the same time on an especially cold night and causes a brown out. (Happened to me this winter.)
  - osigurdson 4y ago
    >> Electric resistance heat is super inefficient I know what you mean but it is actually nearly 100% efficient. The inefficient part is converting high entropy heat to low entropy electricity.
    - GeneralMayhem 4y ago
      Heat pumps are significantly >100% efficient, if measured as (heat energy brought inside)/(electrical energy consumed).
      - osigurdson 4y ago
        Yes, because you are moving heat from one location to another. Same thing with a refrigerator.
  - 8note 4y ago
    If you actually had to pay for the methane leakage from having the interconnect, it would be cost prohibitive, even if they were legal.

john_shafthair 4y ago

Not when the power's out for days - as often happens in winter storms. You can run the blower and electronics of a natural gas furnace or boiler off a little camping generator for a week or even better a natural gas whole house unit in perpetuity. So you don't, you know, freeze to death.

smileysteve 4y ago
If you take the investment that is the infrastructure for gas lines (all underground) and do similar for most electricity then storms don't take out electricity and people don't die. Best of all, the total investment and maintenance actually decreases.
- tomohawk 4y ago
  How about you get that done first, prove that its at least as reliable, and then start banning things?
  - greenthrow 4y ago
    Other countries have buried their power lines ages ago, and yes it is as reliable as gas, more so.
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  But gas lines are already down. If it were as easy as you said then NY would already have no grid problems.
JamisonM 4y ago
"You can run the blower and electronics of a natural gas furnace or boiler off a little camping generator.." Likewise for a heat pump, right? Does this "power out for days after a winter storm" thing actually happen very often? I am from Manitoba and my worst-ever experience was 10-11 hours when it was very, very cold out in 35+ years.
- 4y ago

reisse 4y ago

I lived in a building with heat pumps in Europe. In colder climate, they're loud. As in, LOUD. It's likely fine when you can install the external module somewhere on the roof (poor birds though), but in many apartment buildings you can only put it on the outer walls, and you can clearly hear the sound inside the flat. Internal modules that cycle air are also noisy, though less. I'm glad to pay the premium for silent heating.

Maximus9000 4y ago
There are quiet heat pumps available: https://homeinspectioninsider.com/are-all-heat-pumps-noisy-11-quietest-heat-pumps-reviewed/ https://homeinspectioninsider.com/are-all-heat-pumps-noisy-1...
maccard 4y ago
I'd hardly classify my gas boiler as silent.
8note 4y ago
Americans already have heat pumps installed "air conditioning units" Burning stuff is also loud, but resistive heating is mostly quiet other than fan noise and metal containers creaking as they heat up/cool down

cwillu 4y ago

My city was only a couple degrees short of -40 this last winter.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]