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Startup dudes: Cut the sexist crap

• gibybo 15y ago
  I don't know the context here (full audio is not loading for me), but doesn't it seem reasonable that it was just his way of congratulating her for recently getting married? I could imagine a similar intro being used for a guy that was just married too. EDIT: I got the full audio to work and the introduction is longer than the quote he pulled out. Judging from his tone and the earlier part of the introduction, I really don't think he was doing anything but trying to compliment/congratulate her (though admittedly he could have done a better job).
  • untog 15y ago
    Perhaps. Still seems a little strange to me- if someone described my (at this point, imaginary) wife as "sexy" I would probably be more weirded out than complimented- especially at a professional event.
    • enjo 15y ago
      My wife would be extraordinarily flattered fwiw:)
  • jfoutz 15y ago
    a) we have an insightful comment from gibybo. b) the incredibly sexy gibybo commented. one of these is better. sexy.
    • gibybo 15y ago
      I admit 'sexy' was a little out of place, but I ended up getting the download to work and the full introduction starts out: "Rebecca took over as effective director of northwest entrepreneurial group and just blew us all away with her expertise, knowledge, connections, and her charm." The tone of the final remark really just sounded like he was trying to compliment and congratulate her. The sexist implication of using 'sexy' was pretty marginal and is being blown a little out of proportion I think.
      • jfoutz 15y ago
        I'm sure it was the best of intentions. I'm just not sure when physical attributes have any relevance to a professional introduction. When we selected Bob and he said yes, he was a fat single man. When we selected Dave and he said yes, he was a acne-ridden single man. When we selected Joe and he said yes, he was a weightlifting single man. I think in all other cases, you'd just say single. maybe "talented" rather than drawing attention to physique. It's just stereotypical nerd bullshit that everyone will try to paper over as not a big deal. Frankly, there doesn't seem to be a market for non-stereotypical engineering environments, or the market would capitalize on that. So perhaps it's not a big deal in any startup sense, but it's a real effect.
        • _delirium 15y ago
          I've actually seen the weightlifting case with men, though it's far less common. Former EA and now-Blizzard AI programmer Brian Schwab gets a lot of comments about his physique, because he has a bodybuilder-type physique, which is sort of unusual in videogame programming. It doesn't seem to bug him, though.
      • saraid216 15y ago
        It's kinda like having an awesome idea, starting a company, and watching it sink because you screwed up on execution. He was trying to compliment and congratulate her. He gets points for effort. That's worth something, but it's not much when stacked against everything else.
  • Qworg 15y ago
    You don't congratulate someone for getting married as an introduction when their technical chops are what got them there. This was an awful intro - you want to establish someone's right to be there with an introduction, not comment on their personal life.
    • gibybo 15y ago
      Check out the full audio, the rest of the introduction goes into more detail of her technical chops.
      • anigbrowl 15y ago
        You can talk for a half hour about someone's chops, but if you conclude by saying what a great ass that person has, that's the part that people are going to focus on.
  • rcfox 15y ago
    > ...and so I wanted her lucky new spouse to stand up. This kinda comes off as, "don't worry, this woman is being properly escorted."
  • jfarmer 15y ago
    I'd encourage this for a thought experiment. Take a step back. Bottle your immediate reaction to this article. Starting asking yourself a few questions. Why did the author react this way to the introduction? Why do so many people in the comments seem to agree? Avoid easy, dismissive answers. "Because they're illogical," "because they're too sensitive," "because they're not thinking this through," etc. are not good answers. They're easy answers. If it helps pretend there's a woman upset by this sitting across the table from you. Have a conversation with her. The goal is to really understand why she's upset. Or imagine what the husband in the audience felt -- if I were him, I'd be a little embarrassed and apologize to my wife afterwards. I'd also send a follow-up email to the moderator and the person who organized the conference voicing my displeasure (as the husband). I'm not being flippant. Think deeply about why people are reacting this way, and avoid easy answers.
    • NinetyNine 15y ago
      I think you have a very good point, and a great technique. In general, it works great when reacting to things. In this case though, you have a third party journalist complaining that a racy joke is a cultural set back to an entire group of people ("startup guys"). It's pretty far out there. The commenters are mostly agreeing with a generalization of the headline, something along the lines of "there is too much sexism in tech", which is probably true.
      • jfarmer 15y ago
        All but the most blatant examples of sexism (and racism -- "food stamp President" anyone?) are like this. At worst they seem insensitive, at least in isolation. That's why it's so easy to talk about getting a thicker skin, etc. I know this will seem like I'm dismissing you, but looking at your profile I see you're a current student at RIT. There is a backdrop here and it's hard to see from the other side of the country. Heck, it's hard to see right here in Silicon Valley unless you're in the middle of it and sensitive to it. Many people are the former, but not the latter. You might accuse me of using weasel words -- "many people," "most instances," etc. -- and I won't blame you. What I can say, though, is that there's a lot between the lines here. Anyone who spends time in Silicon Valley and isn't completely unaware sees it and knows it. See my top-level comment on this thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3573674 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3573674
  • InclinedPlane 15y ago
    Change the genders, would you expect the same style of introduction for a man, even remotely?
    • deleted 15y ago
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    • ben0x539 15y ago
      Careful, there's no shortage of clowns in the comments on the blog post literally substituting a male name in the quotation and going "see? no sexism now!" Edit: Fuck, I just scrolled down and found http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3573710 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3573710
  • rmc 15y ago
    Something can be both a compliment and sexist. Especially if it's a compliment that has a lot of baggage and assumptions. There is a history women only being viewed as good for marriage and babies. It used to be seen as unusual & unnatural for a woman to not want babies and marriage. It was seen as weird for a woman to want to focus on carrer rather than marriage. Also they were viewed as "nice to look at, but unable to do any real work". Things have gotten a lot better, but there are still bits of this attitude around. If you compliment a woman based on (a) getting married and (b) physical attractiveness, you are slightly re-inforcing that meme. You are also signaling that you might be the sort of person who thinks the above, or that you support the above attitudes.
• DanBC 15y ago
  It's staggering that in 2012 we still have to remind people about this.
• j_baker 15y ago
  I think he chose a pretty bad example to lead in with. Yeah, the comment to Lovell lacked taste, but it was hardly the worst thing that could have been said. That said, there was a good point here: Think before you open your mouth. Couldn't agree more. Far too many faux pas (including some that I've made) could be avoided just by thinking about what you're about to say before you say it.
  • lmkg 15y ago
    > ... it was hardly the worst thing that could have been said While I agree with this statement to an extent, on the other hand, which has more of an impact: the infrequent blatant examples, or the more common low-level ones? I can't answer that myself, but I would imagine that the ubiquity of the ubiquitous different treatment would bother me more than the blatancy of the few blatant assholes.
  • pavel_lishin 15y ago
    > it was hardly the worst thing that could have been said. "He didn't slap her ass, therefore it's fine."
  • saalweachter 15y ago
    Reversing the genders in the introduction yields, "Robert's one of the smartest men[1] I know, and I thought that he was a perfect pick for the role of moderator. When we selected Robert and he said yes, he was a sexy single man. And since that time, he’s become a sexy married man, and so I wanted his lucky new spouse to stand up. So we’ve got not only a very talented, but a happy moderator.", which is only slightly weird. Removing the obvious weird part -- "sexy" -- yields, "... When we selected Robert and he said yes, he was a single man. And since that time, he’s become a married man, and so I wanted his lucky new spouse to stand up ...", which isn't weird anymore, but somewhat of an awkward construction; you don't say "he has become a married man" in normal conversation. If I had to rephrase that less awkwardly, I'd go with "... since we selected Robert and he said yes, he's gone and got himself married, and so I wanted his lucky new spouse to stand up ...". Maybe throw in the classic, "Let's have a round of applause for the happy couple." Putting this all back together: "Rebecca’s one of the smartest ladies I know, and I thought that she was a perfect pick for the role of moderator. Since we selected Rebecca and she said yes, she's gone and got herself married, and so I wanted her lucky new spouse to stand up. (Let's have a round of applause for the happy couple.) So we’ve got not only a very talented, but a happy moderator." [1] "ladies" might be slightly off in this context, but I think it's less egregious than twisting a marriage announcement into an opportunity to call a woman sexy twice.
• ekanes 15y ago
  Argh. This continues to happen. Was in a boardroom meeting with a company recently with my female cofounder, and she was all but ignored by the CEO (others were fine). On the surface, nothing will come of it. In actual fact though, the behavior spoke volumes about what kind of environment they offer in terms of a deeper integration/commitment, and who knows what opportunities were lost for them (and, in theory, for us).
• deleted 15y ago
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• nailer 15y ago
  There's another side to this as well: it distracts from your message and makes you sound weird and creepy. Don't introduce people as sexy unless you're trying to make a joke about being weird and creepy. In which case, make it a guy, and compliment the way their hair smells for extra weird and creepy.
  • _delirium 15y ago
    I agree with that. Even if you didn't care about sexism (which you should), it's just not a good introduction. If your event has one of the few prominent women in technology keynoting it, that fact will be obvious to everyone, and there's no real need to emphasize it, especially not in a way that could come off as weird. A bit more classy to just emphasize why she's actually there, how she's relevant to the event, etc. For whatever reason, I have usually seen this done better with Black technologists. Unfortunately, even rarer than women as keynote speakers, but introductions rarely do anything too facepalm-inducing. Maybe people just have more cultural sensitivity around race, so some of the more egregious things you could do in that context are too obviously stupid for anyone to actually do.
    • wisty 15y ago
      I read that discrimination against blacks (by normal middle class people) is actually a lot rarer than discrimination against, say, Hispanics. In most circles, sexist discrimination is also one of those things that is universally frowned on. Maybe not in tech, though.
      • deleted 15y ago
        [deleted]
      • pbhjpbhj 15y ago
        >In most circles, sexist discrimination is also one of those things that is universally frowned on. // I disagree strongly with this assertion. There is much sexism that is highly regarded by certain sectors.
  • deleted 15y ago
• jtchang 15y ago
  How to do introductions 101: 1. Say something about why the person is here. Speak to their credentials and establish credibility. 2. Know your audience. Let them know why the person being introduced is important to them. 3. It's okay to make a small personal comment. It establishes rapport. If the entire intro is #3 you've screwed up. This intro was clearly out of line. My guess is that the moderator didn't even realize it which is twice as bad.
  • burgerbrain 15y ago
    If you look at the whole introduction instead of merely the snippet presented, it appears as though the introducer followed your guidelines.
  • rmc 15y ago
    3. It's okay to make a small personal comment. It establishes rapport. Not all personal comments are OK.
• fishtoaster 15y ago
  For context, here's the text of the audio of the guy introducing her: "So Rebecca Lovell is the chief business officer of Geekwire, and I got to know– you can read the bio– what's written, but just for some personal color: So, Rebecca took over as executive director of the Northwest Entrepreneur network while I was on the board there and just blew us all away with her expertise, her knowledge, her connections, and her charm. And when we were putting together this program, we were looking for a real dynamite moderator who really knew the subject area, might know some of the potential panelists, and who could really add something– some substance to the program. Rebecca's one of the smartest ladies ..."
  • bobbles 15y ago
    It would be interesting to get Rebeccas thoughts on the introduction.. it sounds strange reading it, but I could easily expect something like that from someone who was a close personal friend of the couple.
    • saalweachter 15y ago
      There's a little bit of selection bias: I wager that if you asked the women in a Mad Men-style secretarial pool if they minded having their bottoms patted and their appearances complemented, a majority of them would say 'no', because women who minded (and had any other employment options) would have long since left the secretary pool for greener pastures with less bottom-patting (or have never gotten such a job to begin with). The sort of people who can make it in the tech world are smart, motivated, powerful people. If they find the tech world uninviting, they have plenty of options elsewhere. So it's perfectly possible that you could survey a hundred women in tech and find that all but a handful don't notice or don't mind their peers' attitudes towards women, but that if you were to survey a hundred women who could be in tech, 95% of them would find the behavior unacceptable.
      • mechanical_fish 15y ago
        all but a handful don't notice or don't mind their peers' attitudes towards women You left out an important subset, here: Those who notice, and mind, perhaps even mind a lot, but who know better than to admit it out loud, because doing so won't help them.
• iDisapprove 15y ago
  Really? Women do not start or get involved with tech companies because the male programmers make sexist jokes?! Get real. Women are just as competitive as men, and the reason they stay out of tech has not much to do with sexism. I am all for women and men being equal, but putting men on the burning stake for something like this seems unfair to me.
  • icebraining 15y ago
    Really? Women do not start or get involved with tech companies because the male programmers make sexist jokes?! Get real. This wasn't a sexist joke. This was a sign of a sexist culture, which is much more pervasive and damaging. Women are just as competitive as men Men don't have to take this crap. Well, usually. he reason they stay out of tech has not much to do with sexism So, what is it?
    • iDisapprove 15y ago
      Lack of role models. Thats probably the biggest reason there are not enough women in technology. Also, your mention of sexist culture makes it sound like that's the culture in technology startups, this is not true. Sexism, where it exists, does not depend on the domain. Its pervasive.
      • kbatten 15y ago
        I wonder how much role models actually play a role. I got into programming because I loved programming, it was something I could do at home with minimal ramp up time or gear.
        • iDisapprove 15y ago
          There is a lack of role models because there is a perception among the younger generation of women that programming is not a creative endeavor, which makes a lot of women away from learning programming. The society's portrayal of programmers as geeks or beta males does not help either. People are the sum total of the 5-10 people they closely associate with, and most girls do not find their friends wanting to be programmers when they grow up. Peer support, role models, are key. When women like Sheryl Sandberg of Facebook start showing up on TV and the idea of successful women in technology is portrayed to be appealing, you will slowly find women taking more to technology jobs.
• littlegiantcap 15y ago
  Being sexist, racist, or anything else really distracts from the mission of the startup. That being said we take the same approach that south park does. Everything is on the table or nothing is on the table. Everyone in my group constantly rags on each other for everything including some off color jokes. However we've been friends for years, and when we work with other people we cut that stuff out immediately. The comments he made were fairly demeaning, and I guess a strong lesson here is know your audience or if you can't figure that out then don't do it at all. To clarify I judge a person based on their ability and how they treat others. It's really the only way to go about things.
  • rmc 15y ago
    That's a good point, but it's important to remember that a lot of insults can carry baggage. Especially if you're a straight, white, cisgendered, upper/middle class male. (or whatever the formerly priviliged group in your area). So you might think "Oh I insulted Joe about his looks and Wendy about her looks, so it's all equal", but Joe might have never been judged as much on his looks as Wendy, so one joke might sting more. I suppose it's like all jokes. You have to make sure not to say something too cutting to the audience.
• drivebyacct2 15y ago
  I'm disgusted at the amount of sexist crap everywhere and I'm horrified when I see it here on HN and am still surprised at its persistence on reddit (ie the trainwreck #1 post this morning). It's been a while but here on HN there was a series of posts and discussion about women's pay and negotiations that left a bad taste in my mouth from the dripping sense of entitlement and ignorance that resulted from posters arrogantly asserting that "women should just ask for more", revealing their ignorance of the complications of sexism in various tech industries. Sadly this reaction is typical when confronting a majority about their taking advantage of minority groups. "It's just a joke". (Hint, this response has already been offered up more than once in this thread). It doesn't affect males and it's a male dominated industry, thus the issue has low visibility and personal impact to those who are causing the problem or have the influence to fix it. This all compounds to make this issue hard to solve unless people are willing to vocally confront these incidents as they happen, when they happen, and take responsibility for treating people with respect and equality.
  • shareme 15y ago
    how much of this is the social background of the offender? I find those who had Moms that worked when they were growing up seem as far as a group as of a whole to be less inclined to state stuff like this
    • Stormbringer 15y ago
      Frankly I think that spending half the intro talking about how sexy they are and then essentially giving an update on what the person in question has been doing lately with their genitalia is just wrong. Are they in the pr0n industry? No? Well then, sit down and shut the %%%% up.
    • egillie 15y ago
      This makes me hopeful for the future
  • srl 15y ago
    > posters arrogantly asserting that "women should just ask for more" I believe I remember the posts to which you're referring, which centered IIRC around posts of "what you as a woman can do to improve your salary", by at least one feminist and one recruiter. The thesis of both posts - and many of the comments - was that a heavy contributing factor to the lower average salary for women, at least in "higher" professions (C.S., engineering in general), was that the system was biased towards giving higher salaries to those who were bolder and greedier, traits which women seemed less likely to display at the negotiating table. I suppose one could argue that emphasizing the "what women could do" rather than "fix the damn system" aspect was sexist, but it's a stretch, especially given the authors. Re: jokes. Whenever someone complains about a joke, or about an aspect of language, I always feel like we're attacking the tip of the iceberg in a way that won't really affect the rest of the problem at all. I'd rather people spent their time dealing with the roots of these sorts of problems than arguing over words and jokes.
• jfarmer 15y ago
  I see this shit all the time, and most men don't even realize they're doing it. Lots of startups quickly converge to a culture that's little better than a frat house. If you think this is much ado about nothing, consider this: the subtle sexist parts of your company's culture will turn off any qualified woman from working there. And we all know how EASY it is to hire in Silicon Valley these days. I'd also like to add, one of the most positive experiences in my startup life was working for Brian Sugar and Lisa Sugar at Sugar, Inc.. This was my first job at a proper startup and as a male I was in the minority. I joined as #10 or so, and the first non-founding engineer. One third of the founding team were female. The second engineer we hired was Lydia Wagner. From #10 to #30 or so I think I was one of only two or three male hires. The stereotypical Silicon Valley startup is founded by N engineers, probably male, who graduated from college in the last 5 years. Put those people in a tiny room for 10-14 hours a day, 6 days a week, for a year or two and it's kind of inevitable. But it's also easy to stop if you're self-aware about it, and the founders make it a priority. Also, guys (if I may be so bold), this thread is acting as an existence proof for the point the article is making.
• spking 15y ago
  I'll be the first to admit that before I had my daughter, this type of stuff never really bothered me (shame on me). Now that I have a little girl, I'm much more sensitive to it and really, really don't want her to grow up in a world where she gets introduced to a professional audience as "sexy".
  • egillie 15y ago
    As an early 20's woman in software engineering I've actually noticed differences in how older men with daughters treat me vs. my new-grad peers, and I prefer working with the former.
    • jgw 15y ago
      Interesting, but we have 2 variables here. How do older men with only sons, and older childless men stack up? To what do you attribute the difference - maturity, or having a daughter?
      • egillie 15y ago
        Actually, it seems to be both age and having a daughter, compounded. Older men seem generally more agreeable/less-fratboy, but men with daughters seem to be actively conscious of the environment and actively try to be respectful, even if it's counter to the culture. Of course, this is all just anecdotal, and my sample size is still small right now.
      • rmc 15y ago
        With lots of things involving discrimination, people tend to get a bit more tolerant when there's someone who they know who could be affected. e.g. families with a LGB member are a bit less anti-gay etc.
• HedgeMage 15y ago
  Somebody was (reportedly) rude. This is only news when the person being rude is male and the person on the receiving end is female. THEN it's proof of how horrible men are. Kind of like the reverse of: http://xkcd.com/385 http://xkcd.com/385
  • seldo 15y ago
    It's really funny that you would pick an XKCD that is about how sexism works as part of your argument that it wasn't sexism, merely rudeness. The whole point is that a man being rude about another man in this particular way -- by superfluously mentioning his attractiveness -- is exceedingly rare, while for women it is all too common. One would be an aberration, the other is pattern, and the pattern is why it's at the top of HN.
    • HedgeMage 15y ago
      "it wasn't sexism, merely rudeness" ugh. Sexism is an attitude, the rude introduction was the action. Who cares why it was rude? It shouldn't be more offensive because you can (correctly or not) ascribe a motive to it that you find distasteful. Trying to decry this sort of thing and speak up in "defense of women" or any of that garbage infantilizes women and perpetuates a much more serious problem than men noticing how we look.
  • icebraining 15y ago
    reportedly Uh, it's taped. You can listen to it yourself by simply clicking on a link. This is only news when the person being rude is male and the person on the receiving end is female. Are you saying female sexism is common in the tech startup world? Can you cite any examples? THEN it's proof of how horrible men are. Where has anyone claimed all men are horrible? I must have missed it. It is an example of an horrible culture, which fortunately is diminishing.
  • ben0x539 15y ago
    It's not only then! It also works, for example, when the person being rude is white and the person on the receiving end is black. I'm sure you'll figure out the pattern.
• phzbOx 15y ago
  Here's the male version: John’s one of the smartest guy I know, and I thought that he was a perfect pick for the role of moderator. When we selected John and he said yes, he was a handsome single man. And since that time, he’s become a handsome married man, and so I wanted his lucky new spouse to stand up. So we’ve got not only a very talented, but a happy moderator. Would someone saying that get to the top of hacker news? I do agree that this is far from a good introduction thought.
  • boredguy8 15y ago
    Is systemic exclusion of men from technology an endemic problem and I missed it? Are men commonly characterized by their physical attractiveness and marital status? It's appropriate to give attention to a widespread and often unacknowledged problem while not giving the same attention to statistical noise.
    • yummyfajitas 15y ago
      Is systemic exclusion of men from technology an endemic problem and I missed it? You are assuming that "systemic exclusion of women from technology" is a proven fact. It isn't.
  • seldo 15y ago
    Doesn't it sound super-weird though? You'd never talk about a guy's marital status and the attractiveness of his spouse in his introduction at a tech conference; why on earth would you say it about a woman?
    • erichocean 15y ago
      You would if you were speaking to an audience full of women, where that kind of comment happens all the time. And where, I might add, no one rushes to the defense of men with a "cut the sexist crap" article.
      • brown9-2 15y ago
• boredguy8 15y ago
  This exists in more than just the startup world. I was in a meeting today where a technology leader said, "Let's have X take the meeting notes, she's a woman." This person also had her administrative account set to a pathologically trivializing username. I think the term "microaggression" gets overused, but the story referenced in the article says that what's important about the person is her gender, attractiveness, and marital status. To the point that her "lucky" spouse deserves special recognition. What?!
  • efnx 15y ago
    "Let's have X take the meeting notes, she's a woman." Definitely sounds sexist. "You are sexy." Does not sound sexist (to me). I think tech guys are afraid of sex. Now - "You are sexy" could be sexual harassment, I guess that really depends on tone, expectations, relationships. In general I think humans (mostly men) are so messed up about sex, I think everyone needs to take a chill pill.
    • nikatwork 15y ago
      Sex, politics and religion do not belong in a professional environment. You are there to work, save the other stuff for after hours.
      • unconed 15y ago
        Oh lol, how north American of you. On the last two i mean.
    • rmc 15y ago
      If you compliment someone's attractiveness, you might be implying that they got to where they are due to their looks, which implies that they do not have the skills to get there themselves and that they are slightly dishonest. Women used to only been seen as good for menial jobs and as eye candy unable to do real work but kept around for the menfolk to look at. By calling someone sexy you are reinforcing this old view, or implying that you might hold that view yourself.
    • 15y ago
• joedev 15y ago
  Terrible introduction. Gives insight into how that man's brain works around women, causing him to trip over his tongue and mention what he saw - "sexy" - vs. what qualifications she had for moderating.
• larrys 15y ago
  "And if you see someone doing this, call them on it. I didn’t… that was my nervous laughter in the background of the recording." "Here’s what the man introducing Rebecca chose to say" So, who is this "man"? Easy to say but hard to do depending on your relationship to the "someone". Let's say the person doing this is of the stature of PG and you are looking to get into YC. Is it safe to stand up to him? Sure that might get you points for taking a stand, he might actually like that. Or maybe not. It's double or nothing. It's easy to take a stand when the person being sexist is of no significance to you. Much harder if you have something to loose. This is why things like this happen many times. And important to keep in mind. Power.
  • jfarmer 15y ago
    Nice! Yes, when other people in this thread -- and let's be honest, men -- play the thought experiment where the roles are reverse and it's the wife sitting in the audience, they don't see what's so offensive. "I wouldn't be offended!" they think. They see a formal symmetry in the situation, but miss the fact that there's a huge asymmetry when it comes to power and gender.
• efnx 15y ago
  I would be very complimented if an introducer said these things about me, replacing 'woman' with 'man'. Maybe I'm sexist - I think (those who are upset) are a little too uptight. It feels like (they) would like to take sexuality out of the workplace entirely.
  • kasraeg 15y ago
    how can you think this is appropriate in any professional setting?
    • efnx 15y ago
      Is professional modeling a professional setting? What if models were judged by their intelligence? Would that be inappropriate? ;P
  • drivebyacct2 15y ago
    And when you are hollered at when you're at the bars, and stared at when at a tech conference, when you're walking home and people think it's acceptable to offer you "a ride", do you think you'd be as excited about getting introduced by appearance? These sorts of comments show just how pervasive the problem is and how hard it is for males to understand what utter bullshit women have to put up with. Saying that you'd be flattered just goes to show that you really don't understand the problem whatsoever.
    • efnx 15y ago
      I probably don't understand the problem whatsoever. I try to understand the utter bullshit women have to go through. At least I'm trying. It is hard for me to understand, this problem. It seems like becoming so tired of being attractive that compliments on your looks make you angry would be a nice problem to have. That is a handleable suffering. I apologize for being so insensitive though.
      • drivebyacct2 15y ago
        Every day, you are judged first for your appearance and second for eveything else. It's like introducing a friend at a party, "Hi, this is my GAY friend, Cole". I can't imagine it's pleasant to have your primary attribute be your appearance (or sexuality, etc), always secondary to your contributions, skills, etc.
• shpoonj 15y ago
  If someone called me a sexy single man, I would be flattered. I don't see a problem.
  • deleted 15y ago
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• jrockway 15y ago
  I look at remarks like this as a result of not practicing in advance. As programmer types, we don't typically get up in front of people and make personable comments. If we are up in front of people, it's discussing something technical, which is something we are qualified to talk about. But introducing panel moderators -- when have you ever done that before? All you have to go on is cliches you've picked up from TV or movies, and you saying something that sounded funny when a comedian said it might not sound as funny. You don't know until you try. You don't know until you practice. (Personally, I think the best way to navigate uncharted waters like this is to stick to the facts. "Here's our panelist, she has a PhD from Harvard and likes skiing." I'm not going to get any laughs or win any awards for that sentence, but I'm also not going to make anyone feel bad. And that's more important to me.
• c0riander 15y ago
  Some of these comments baffle me. Look, it doesn't matter what someone said before or after they sexualized someone in a professional context. Here's why: human beings are smart. They know that things people say matter. Thus, if you are commenting on someone's appearance or sexiness in a professional context, that must matter to you. Why is that important? It serves to undermine the person it's said about. Rather than being judged on their work, or their connections, or what not - they are now being judged for their appearance. And that steals credibility they may have had in other, legitimate arenas. It says, I like you because you're attractive, not because you deserve it. ("Oh, Nancy's not a good lawyer - everyone just thinks she's pretty." "Well Bob got that promotion because he's so good-looking. He didn't really deserve it." Etc.) And yes, in some contexts, we expect to be more casual and colloquial. But if you're in a professional setting, unprofessional remarks do insidious harm to the subject.
  • planckscnst 15y ago
    >It says, I like you because you're attractive, not because you deserve it. I don't think so. What if, instead of commenting about her physical appearance, the introducer commented about her sense of humor. Is that saying "I like you because you're funny, not because you deserve it"? Equally, no. It is simply a noticeable quality about the person. To me, it's more like saying "I like this person, and just one of the things that make this person unique and remarkable is his/her appearance/humor/whatever." There is no "...not because you deserve it" part to that. That said, it does seem out of place in a professional setting to remark on someone's appearance when there are more relevant things to comment on. That is, unless you don't know that parson particularly well; in that case, appearance may be the only thing you know how to comment on.
    • c0riander 15y ago
      The point is relevance to the situation and context. If someone is about to give a talk, then (depending on the venue) it may be appropriate to say "Stacy is very funny," because it has a clear implication for the situation at hand. But imagine this. A woman walks by - your colleague Bob knows her and waves. You say, "Bob, who was that?" He says, "That's Stacy from Accounting. She has a great sense of humor." Do we think Stacy is great at her job? Probably not. The point is that in a professional context (certain professions excluded), it is never relevant to comment on someone's appearance or sexualize them. Like many things related to sexual harassment, the waters can be murky, and many people don't realize they are undermining their colleagues (often people they do in fact greatly respect) by their words and behaviors. And there is just no excuse for commenting on someone's appearance or sexualizing them in a professional context. Even if you don't know them well.
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• icarus127 15y ago
  A lot of the comments here compare this to saying a man is sexy and conclude "it sounds a little weird, it's out of place in a professional setting." This completely misses the point that in our culture women are frequently (practically _always_) objectified sexually in some way. There's a gulf between what it means to call a man sexy and what it means to call a woman sexy. I think this is what men so often completely miss. The male equivalent of this is not "John’s one of the smartest guy I know, and I thought that he was a perfect pick for the role of moderator. When we selected John and he said yes, he was a handsome single man. And since that time, he’s become a handsome married man, and so I wanted his lucky new spouse to stand up" it's something closer to: John’s one of the smartest guy I know, and I thought that he was a perfect pick for the role of moderator. When we selected John and he said yes, he's a single man with just has a gigantic penis. And since that time, he’s become a married man with a gigantic penis, and so I wanted his lucky new spouse, who gets all that in bed, to stand up" It's not 'out of place' it's appalling that something like this is acceptable _anywhere_.
• kafkaesque 15y ago
  I apologize for this (my) post because it adds no real value to this topic. But I just have to say, as a male, I am disgusted when guys talk like this in a professional environment. I do not know anything about the person who said it or the companies involved, but I associate this kind of talk to a particular type of person, which may or may not be an accurate portrayal of "guys who talk like this", and I guess it is this very archetypal man that rubs me the wrong way. Here I am no longer talking about the person who said this sexist comment, but the image of a guy in my own head: a yuppie, clean-cut, trendy, smooth-talker, that thinks (and certainly can be) cutting edge in the IT or business sector, that also thinks he's got it all figured out and knows exactly what each person (not just women) is worth. He's got us all "figured out", but is really just full of himself. I've met a couple, and again, I'm not saying this person is that type, but having gathered extremely little information on him, he reminded me of this "theoretical" person, and I just have no tolerance for these "slick" smooth-talking men. If my post is inappropriate because you deem it to be an overreaction, please delete it or advise me to, and I will follow through. I just feel very strongly about this. I can write a whole essay on how calling anybody "sexy" sends the wrong message. Good on him for going for the un-PC, hip talk, but it absolutely fuels the image of what our society deems to be a standard/pre-defined sense of beauty or a definitive definition of "success". And the problem is that many people point out what "sexy" is to the point that we start seeing a pattern and assume "Oh, this is what sexy is", or "Oh, this is what beauty is". It takes all types to make the world go 'round. And just to add a point that is not contentious: Calling anybody sexy in a business environment is disrespectful, regardless of gender, or how in-tune/hip with the kids you may feel you are. I feel women in power tend to downplay it or act like they don't mind for the very reason that they may be blamed for falling into the "typical sensitive, overreacting" woman role. It's like they can't escape it. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. A catch-22. So might as well make the best of it and put on a smile. (Or talk about it privately with your bestfriends.) I'm new here, so if this rant is inappropriate, please let me know and I'll remove it or edit it, instead of getting a flood of down-votes.
• Karunamon 15y ago
  So someone explain this to me.. how is this "sexist"? That to me takes on an air of discrimination. I didn't see any undertones, nor would those (assumed by the author) undertones exist if the gender roles were reversed. This "controversy" seems like a lot of bunkola, to me.
  • rimantas 15y ago
    The case is lost. Seems like people are not able to get the difference any more. If you mention skin color, you are racist, no matter that context. If you mention attractiveness or feminine side of someone you are sexist. If you talk to a child, you are a pedophile.
    • arnnr 15y ago
      Totally agree. If you mind expanding on why, I'd love hearing your opinion. Remember for example when Sylvio Berlusconi made a mediocre joke about Obama's tan how the correctness cannibals went frantic. Funny thing that the racist card was pulled by the people who actually had a taboo with skin colors.
  • rmc 15y ago
    Something can be both a compliment and sexist. Especially if it's a compliment that has a lot of baggage and assumptions. There is a history women only being viewed as good for marriage and babies. It used to be seen as unusual & unnatural for a woman to not want babies and marriage. It was seen as weird for a woman to want to focus on carrer rather than marriage. Also they were viewed as "nice to look at, but unable to do any real work". Things have gotten a lot better, but there are still bits of this attitude around. If you compliment a woman based on (a) getting married and (b) physical attractiveness, you are slightly re-inforcing that meme. You are also signaling that you might be the sort of person who thinks the above, or that you support the above attitudes. After all, would you compliment a Jewish speaker about how much money they had? Or compliment an older man about how they haven't needed to go to the toilet in a while?
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• pbhjpbhj 15y ago
  Typical men, all sexists ... Shouldn't the title be "startup people" if we're "cut[ting] the sexist crap" - unless of course it's a documented fact that no female involved in a startup has ever made a sexist comment.
  • rmc 15y ago
    The majority of sexism is suffered by women at the hands of men. There's no point in arguing false dichotomies where everyone agrees or not.
    • pbhjpbhj 15y ago
      Yes but condemning sexism in a subgroup chosen only by sex is itself sexist, and rather ironic.
• snth 15y ago
  Regardless of the merits of this blog post, we seem to have to discuss this at least once a week on Hacker News. At this point I'd classify it as a "classic flamewar topic". Flagged.
• jballanc 15y ago
  How about this: Cut the unprofessional crap! The programming world is so used to breaking the norms, revolutionizing industries, and wearing T-shirts and sneakers to work that we forget, sometimes, that some aspects of "professionalism" actually do serve a purpose. There's a reason that senators don't call each other by name (hint: how vitriolic can you sound when yelling "I respectfully disagree with the senator from Kentucky"). Respect is a currency in the world of intellectual pursuits. At one time, we showed that respect in the way we dressed. At the very least, shouldn't we show that respect in the way we speak? You might be surprised how far a little respect can go.
• grannyg00se 15y ago
  Is this necessarily sexist? He's not showing any belief in being superior to women, nor is he discriminating against her in any way. In fact, he complimented her at length on her professional success. At one point he described her as a sexy single woman. He even mentioned her husband and asked for him to stand up. While I would consider that to be a very odd and uncomfortable way to end his introduction, it doesn't seem sexist. If somebody went on at length about how great I am professionally, and then threw in a statement about me being a sexy single man, I'm pretty sure I'd just consider it as an added complement. I understand there is real sexism in the industry. I just don't think this is it. It's just an odd comment from a person who may be odd/uncomfortable around women.
  • marquis 15y ago
    Think of it like this: you are at a professional setting and being introduced in front of an audience. These points are made about you while you stand by and the audience watches you: 1. grannyg00se is a great person to work with 2. grannyg00se has a keen understanding and knowledge of the industry 3. grannyg00se brings a lot to the table and is a valued member of their team You stand there and maybe blush a little, proud. Then, 4. grannyg00se was a really sexy single and just got married and is still sexy. How is that relevant to the audience? If you are a guy and everyone in the audience is a guy, maybe that's some kind of frat behaviour that gets a laugh out of everyone. But if you are a women on that stage suddenly you are subject to intense pressure: be good at your job and be sexy because your female and the being good at your job isn't enough. It's complex and it's hard to really explain how it feels but I've been in situations like this. It's just really uncomfortable even when you know it's not meant in bad faith, that maybe some guy in the audience is objectifying you and no longer paying attention to what you are contributing outside of being pretty to look at.
  • rmc 15y ago
    Something can be both a compliment and sexist. Especially if it's a compliment that has a lot of baggage and assumptions. There is a history women only being viewed as good for marriage and babies. It used to be seen as unusual & unnatural for a woman to not want babies and marriage. It was seen as weird for a woman to want to focus on carrer rather than marriage. Also they were viewed as "nice to look at, but unable to do any real work". Things have gotten a lot better, but there are still bits of this attitude around. If you compliment a woman based on (a) getting married and (b) physical attractiveness, you are slightly re-inforcing that meme. You are also signaling that you might be the sort of person who thinks the above, or that you support the above attitudes. After all, would you compliment a Jewish speaker about how much money they had? Or compliment an older man about how they haven't needed to go to the toilet in a while?
• throwaway488 15y ago
  low cut shirts, mini-skirts, hose, lipstick, eye-liner, perfume... seems like being sexy matters a lot to women. you just better not acknowledge it out loud.
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• j45 15y ago
  Taking the focus away from intellectual and professional capacity with something else is just that, indirectly downplaying and trivializing the person. The interesting thing is many guys probably wouldn't say something like this about a close female they knew themselves, be it their own wives, girlfriends, sisters. Nor would we want anyone speaking like that about our wives, girlfriends, or sisters. 0.02
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• SarahKay 15y ago
  I'm a girl in tech, and I think nothing in that introduction is offensive. I feel that there are five points here that need addressing. 1. Women rarely become attractive by doing nothing. We have to work at it. You have to take care of yourself, go to the gym, eat right, choose appropriate clothing, and etc. I have never laid eyes on Rebecca Lovell, but if she's attractive then I think it is a safe assumption that she is trying to be attractive. If I were Rebecca, I would be pleased that my efforts had been noted and approved of. 2. If the fellow who introduced Rebecca had implied that her attractiveness was her only useful quality, I would be more sympathetic to Dan's complaint. But the introduction didn't do that. In fact, he led off by saying how smart Rebecca was, and then he went on to describe her as "perfect" (for the position) and "talented." At no point did he imply that Rebecca was chosen for her looks or that her looks were her claim to fame. On the contrary, his introduction seems genuinely kind, respectful, and affectionate. 3. Even if this introduction had been offensive -- if the introducer had said "Rebecca is hot and stupid and we will enjoy looking at her while she moderates" -- is it really that big a deal? Men insult each other all the time in similar contexts, and it's very rare that they get criticized for it as when women are insulted. If we women are worth a damn, surely our egos should be sturdy enough to handle this sort of thing like adults. 4. I have often heard men say "No wonder there aren't more women in tech; they get treated like sex objects!" It should be news to no one that men like sex -- least of all to women. People in all industries and with all interests are insulted all the time. Can it really be true that womens' interest in tech is so fragile and tenuous that vague insults and sexual innuendo are enough to discourage them from it entirely? I don't believe that, and I'd further venture to say that women who do say that are just making excuses because they're interested in something else. I got my CS degree from Georgia Tech, and in the College of Computing men outnumbered women 9 to 1. I was often the only girl in my classes, and sometimes I was exposed to immature male freshmen being immature male freshmen. This wasn't a trial for me; it wasn't difficult. I wasn't alienated. It sounds crazy to even consider that references to breasts or sex (gasp!) would make me leave my chosen field of study. Who cares if I know that someone wants to have sex with me? 5. Dan Shapiro is clearly trying to do right by women and be a good man, and I respect and appreciate that. But I think he is selling Rebecca (and all women) short by suggesting that that introduction should hurt her feelings.
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• xentronium 15y ago
  I am not sure I understood this post correctly: is it the phrase "a sexy married woman" that is a crime against humanity?
  • merian 15y ago
    Um, no. The "crimes against humanity" thread is over ----> there. This one is about how smart and otherwise insightful men thoughtlessly contribute to the sexist atmosphere that is pervasive in the tech world, as any technical woman can attest to.
• drats 15y ago
  I agree, but I flagged for the headline.
• yason 15y ago
  What the hell?! Someone has really stretched the definition of sexism here or the alleged problem exists in some alternate universe only. I took the time and listened the audio recording. What happened is: - The guy spends minutes talking about how good and smart Ms Lovell is and how she suits the role perfectly - And in the end makes the short remark about that a sexy single lady who is now a sexy married woman, obviously to celebrate the recent happy event. - He even pointed out how lucky her new husband was instead of, say, drooling at her sexiness himself. - Everybody laughed. - Ms Lovell laughed, and made some witty comments before starting with the real business. And then some third party guy gets upset because he thinks there's a problem somewhere. Excuse me but this reeks of steep hypersensitivism. It might certainly be sexist to say somewhat that would expand to "she's so smart that we picked her for this role eventhough she's only a woman" or "we chose her and that is because she was just too sexy to pass". That would be somehow implying that women are lesser but at least they can look good. But this was clearly not the case in this event. What happened was a compliment, both on her recent marriage and related to that, her good looks. Emphasis on the word "good". It was a compliment: the man stated what he thought were positive facts about her, and especially not pointed to anything negative nor exhibited, say, disturbing personal interest in her. The strange thing is that it's not only that as if women couldn't take compliments anymore—I think most of them can
  —but, rather, it seems that some men can't take it anymore to observe women being complimented. This is just crazy. We're all men and women and men do pay attention to good looking women and women do pay attention to good looking men (at least if only they let themselves). That is perfectly normal and there's generally nothing wrong in making a compliment about one's good looks. While there are subtle but complex rules about social interaction, flirting, including making comments about good looks or of even sexual nature, most of all that used to be the norm, and generally well received and lavishly given, without the slightest hint of sexist nature.
  • rmc 15y ago
    Something can be both a compliment and sexist. Especially if it's a compliment that has a lot of baggage and assumptions. There is a history women only being viewed as good for marriage and babies. It used to be seen as unusual & unnatural for a woman to not want babies and marriage. It was seen as weird for a woman to want to focus on carrer rather than marriage. Also they were viewed as "nice to look at, but unable to do any real work". Things have gotten a lot better, but there are still bits of this attitude around. If you compliment a woman based on (a) getting married and (b) physical attractiveness, you are slightly re-inforcing that meme. You are also signaling that you might be the sort of person who thinks the above, or that you support the above attitudes.
• gaius 15y ago
  Flagged; flamebait.
  • ben0x539 15y ago
    You'll be amazed to find out that the flag button works just as well (maybe even better?) without an accompanying post to that effect!
    • gaius 15y ago
      Just making the point that arguing with this kind of article is pointless.
• Proleps 15y ago
  I guess part of the problem is how women are presented in the tech industry. Whenever you see women on a tech event they tend to be booth babes, or they have been send to the event to attract men. I was at a career event last week. None of the women representing a company could give a clear story of what the company does from day to day. They where just there to be pretty. If we want to stop sexism we have to stop this, but i don't think this will happen any time soon.
• drunkenmasta 15y ago
  Way too many conflicting messages in this American culture of ours. I can understand the frustration felt by those who feel that their qualities are not recognized because of one reason or another, but honestly, I don't think it was the speaker's INTENT to sexualize the woman. It is an important topic but poor guy!! Why not focus on more subtle messages like the fact that CNN or your local news hires women to be on camera that do not look like the average woman you may see on the street?
  • ben0x539 15y ago
    Why not do both instead of trying to distract?