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European DSA Recipients of Services Report
- CostcoFanboy 3y agoI'm surprised there are more Apple TV users than Apple watch users. It always felt like a fairly niched device. On a somewhat unrelated side-note, as a hardcore Plex user for the last 5-6 years, Apple TV has been an amazing Plex client. Second only to a Nvidia Shield Pro downgraded to 8.2.3 firmware. Honestly with the quality of their TV boxes, screens and the "ecosystem", I'm kind of surprised they didn't dive into the TV business.
- mostlysimilar 3y agoI don't find this surprising. Apple TV probably has nearly 100% penetration of app store usage, you download your streaming apps as a necessity (Netflix, Hulu, HBO, Disney+ are all apps). Meanwhile there's almost zero useful watchOS apps. The device is great out of the box and doesn't need much else.
- jasongill 3y agoI'm actually NOT surprised by this stat - keep in mind these numbers are the number of active users of the stores, not of the devices themselves. I've had an Apple Watch since day 1 but I can't remember the last time I went to the App Store on my watch itself. On the other hand, I have to use the AppleTV App Store once every couple months to download whatever app is required by the newest streaming platform the family want to use. I suspect most people are like me as well in that they use their iPhone to manage the "apps" on their watch (or, don't manage them at all), but are forced to download apps on the AppleTV periodically, which causes it to have higher usage stats.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- theseanstewart 3y ago> Second only to a Nvidia Shield Pro downgraded to 8.2.3 firmware. What's special about 8.2.3 vs the latest firmware? I've only owned my Shield for a few months so I'm curious what I may be missing.
- radicaldreamer 3y agoI think its about external storage: https://www.reddit.com/r/ShieldAndroidTV/comments/yjt6aq/whats_special_about_823/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ShieldAndroidTV/comments/yjt6aq/wha... Not really relevant if you're mostly streaming on the box or streaming locally from a file/plex server
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y agoI'm not sure either, are they referring to the shitty new home screen courtesy of Google? That comes in separate of the firmware.
- thoughtpalette 3y agoClass action suit against Nvidia for effectively removing local Gamestream from the Shield. Mine's a $200 brick now. [0]: https://www.classaction.org/news/nvidia-hit-with-class-action-after-removing-gamestream-from-shield-tv-streaming-device https://www.classaction.org/news/nvidia-hit-with-class-actio...
- pjc50 3y agoI'm sad about this, because I use Moonlight for the same purpose, and there doesn't seem to be any good reason for this? It's just removing a feature.
- thoughtpalette 3y agoThey're moving to streaming your "Connected Apps" (Steam, EA, etc) through their cloud stream service now. I'm mad since I only bought the Shield in September for the sole purpose of local desktop streaming. I played around with Moonlight for about 15 minutes but have yet to get it work the same. I do love there's an open source solution but I'll probably be going with an AMD build for the first time in my life instead of Intel/NVidia because of this.
- DRW_ 3y ago>I'm surprised there are more Apple TV users than Apple watch users. I don't think these stats suggest that there are more Apple TV users than Apple watch users. They say more people use the App Store on tvOS than use the App Store on Apple Watch. As an Apple Watch user, I'm not surprised by that all. Why would I want to browse the app store directly on my watch? That's annoying and cumbersome. I do it on my phone, it's quicker and easier and therefore I assume that'd be counted as iOS app store usage. And I also reckon most Apple Watch apps people use are companions to apps they installed on their iPhone anyway, rather than Apple Watch only apps.
- radicaldreamer 3y agoSpot on, nobody uses the App Store on the Apple Watch, most people either never use third-party apps on the watch or only use companion apps which are installed alongside iOS apps
- rootusrootus 3y agoFamily setup Apple watches are the most likely situation where people are browsing the app store from their watch. No companion iPhone.
- karmelapple 3y agoI had zero idea there was an App Store on the Apple Watch until this thread. There's some neat apps listed on there - glad everyone in this thread talked about this!
- mk89 3y agoLet me guess, you're using the grid view? :)
- ericpauley 3y agoWow, TIL there's an app store on the watch...
- 3y ago
- Hamuko 3y agoIt's much cheaper. Especially the non-4K models were dirt cheap for Apple products.
- TYPE_FASTER 3y agoThe Apple Watch will automatically install the watchOS app for each iOS app you install on your phone by default, if a watchOS app exists for the iOS app. I don't know if the auto installs count towards user visits to the watchOS App Store. I don't think I've ever used the watchOS store, and my watch is full of apps. https://support.apple.com/guide/watch/get-more-apps-apd99e3c6a68/watchos#:~:text=By%20default%2C%20apps%20on%20your,turn%20off%20Automatic%20App%20Install https://support.apple.com/guide/watch/get-more-apps-apd99e3c....
- eddieroger 3y agoApps aside, my house has two adults with Apple Watches and four TVs with AppleTVs. I don't think it's surprising that the aTV outnumbers the Watch.
- ryanfreeborn 3y agoPurely anecdotal but I know way more TVs with an Apple TV device than I know humans with an Apple watch. In most cases they are households with many TV-Apple TV pairings, and maybe one or two people in the household have an Apple watch.
- scarface74 3y agoApple sells far more watches than AppleTVs by every estimate that you can find.
- tpmx 3y agoApple TV (the hardware, not the streaming service) is so underappreciated. The smooth task switching alone makes it worth a buy. I think it's severely undermarketed. And the old touch remote that so many people hated.. I like it so much. (Haven't tried the newest remote that has a combined d-pad/touch area because of troglodyte customer feedback ( ;) ) but I suspect I will hate it since the touchpad area is so much smaller.)
- graftak 3y agoApple TV+ the streaming service too is under-appreciated, Severance is one of the absolute best tv work out there yet nobody’s talking about it.
- anonymouse008 3y agoWow, they may 'sell' millions in the market, but many end up in a drawer, or rarely seen as anything other than a wrist worn notification device. This information is beautiful! Reaffirms the true value of these things. (Well that, or the metric is truly skewed not including companion apps - though that would feel disingenuous)
- vezuchyy 3y agoI don't have Apple Watch, but have Garmin. I used the store once during the initial setup and I don't see why it should be different for AW users.
- Jtsummers 3y agoA lot of Watch apps also get installed through the attached iPhone when you install the associated iPhone app. I think it was the default, I turned it off, to have "Automatic Downloads" on for apps. So if that's still the default (or the present setting for the watch) then if you download Strava for iPhone you'll get Strava on your Apple Watch without ever touching the Watch App Store.
- izacus 3y agoBut it's still Watch App Store which installed and delivered the app right? And the developers must use it to give you the application? Just because you didn't open the UI it doesn't mean the developers weren't forced to go through that app store to reach you.
- anonymouse008 3y agoThis is the disingenuous piece if so - as in if the target is non companion iOS, then it’s watchOS App Store? That breaks the logic of the rest of the data disclosure
- stirlo 3y agoMost apple watch apps are installed and managed through the watch app on your iPhone not from the app store on the apple watch itself. I just checked and I've never even opened the app store app on my watch but I have configured dozens of 3rd party apps using the Watch app on my iPhone.
- plufz 3y ago> I'm surprised there are more Apple TV users than Apple watch users Anecdotal but everyone in my proximity that uses apple products have an apple tv. My mother, my father, etc. Very few have an apple watch. That’s like me and my developer friends or friends who are more nerdy about workout.
- mperham 3y agoNote these counts are for *European* users. The Apple watch seems really successful in my American suburb but that may not be true in the EU.
- babypuncher 3y agoYou can thank me. I've been shilling the ATV to any friends or family I hear complain about their Roku/Fire Stick/smart TV. I went through literally all of them before getting an ATV, even the Shield, because for a long time I refused to believe Apple could make a good TV experience.
- katbyte 3y agoAnd one with zero ads on the home screen. Something the shield now does by default :(
- idk1 3y agoI would say it's more about accessibility of the store and what you can do with the device. There's not many games you can play on the Apple Watch, not many TV channel apps to download, I expect it's more to do with that than users of the device. They may well have sold more Apple Watches, but the Apple TV has sold less and there's more TV App Store users. This is totally over the top, but just as an example, what if 1% of Apple Watch users use the Watch App Store and 75% of Apple TV users use the Apple TV App Store.
- jsnell 3y ago> iOS App Store: 101 million > iPadOS App Store: 23 million Asserting that the iPad App Store is distinct from the iOS App Store - and totally isn't in scope for the regulations - is certainly a bold strategy. I wonder why iTunes and Apple TV+ aren't included, and why Podcasts is only counting paid subscribers. Is there some obvious reason why these kinds of services would be out of scope?
- radicalbyte 3y agoFantastic, now Epic can use this as evidence for their inevitable appeal against the recent decision which decided exactly the opposite.
- radicalbyte 3y agoIt's strange that the iPhone apps I purchased also work on the iPad. I don't have to buy them again. How is it then a "different store"?
- wildredkraut 3y agoI don’t think they will be out of scope, because they all uses the same AppleID backend and users can cross login with the same AppleID everywhere. To be out of scope, Apple would have to block iOS AppleIDs and iOS purchases from working on the other gadgets and stores.
- threeseed 3y agoThey share the same AppleID backend. But users don't have to use the same login for each store.
- MBCook 3y agoiTunes and Apple TV aren’t app stores. The Apple TV App Store is listed.
- jsnell 3y agoThat explanation does not work. The DSA isn't a law restricted to App Stores. Also, podcasts and ebooks are not apps, but they listed their ebook store and podcast subscriptions platform in this disclosure. Why not the music store, the TV series and movie subscription service?
- smoldesu 3y ago> because the goals of the DSA align with Apple’s goals to protect consumers from illegal content. An interesting gambit. It sounds like they want to concede to the regulators while using "illegal content" as the new boogeyman stopping people from freely using their device. The freedom-loving part of me wants the EU to push the DSA/DMA further, damning all the "content" boogeymen that exist. The realistic part of me knows that this is an amazing deal for the regulator, a literal Golden Apple if you will. Apple is signalling cooperation here, and attaching it to a "think of the children/terrorists" sentiment that most politicians will jump on. It's a damn good strategy, and would almost be impressive if it wasn't used in a desperate struggle to stop the user from installing F-Droid on iOS.
- csomar 3y agoIt'll be interesting if the plot is twisted and instead the EU requires Google to limit Android to only Google Playstore.
- smoldesu 3y agoIt would be a hell of a pivot, but kinda unlikely given how the AOSP exists.
- knaik94 3y agoThat would imply that Amazon app store or Samsung app store apps are illegal content. While they are not as popular in the US, these alernate apps stores have existed for years on android without issue.
- rootusrootus 3y ago> The freedom-loving part of me wants the EU to push I'd expect that writing this phrase caused actual physical pain from the cognitive dissonance.
- madsbuch 3y agoWhy? A big part of governance is to ensure individual freedom: Minimum salary, unions, etc. The comment seems to be perfectly congruent. (Though you have to accept a more ... European world view)
- nottorp 3y ago> Without prejudice to further consideration of the legal characterisation, Apple views each version of the App Store as a distinct online platform under the DSA, and only the iOS App Store may qualify as a VLOP. LOL LMAO ROFL. I really hope there is some EU directive that this is breaking so they can be fined just for being asses.
- apetresc 3y agoGiven that the definition of a VLOP is >45M MAU, and the iOS store is the only one that's even remotely close to being over that, what do you object with in this characterization? Also you left out the very next sentence, which completely reverses the interpretation you're trying to imply: > Nonetheless, Apple intends, on an entirely voluntary basis, to align each of the existing versions of the App Store (including those that do not currently meet the VLOP designation threshold) with the existing DSA requirements for VLOPs because the goals of the DSA align with Apple’s goals to protect consumers from illegal content.
- 988747 3y agoI think the point is: App Stores for iPhone and iPads are in reality one and the same. Apple tries to artificially split them, so they can avoid regulations for at least one of them.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- rpgbr 3y agoLess than 1% of European iPhone users have an Apple Watch, or am I misreading something? I really thought this percentage was bigger in such a rich place.
- ezfe 3y agoI interpret this to be users of the service, not users of the device the service supports. Most users probably don't open the Watch app store and use the iPhone app store instead.
- ffitch 3y agoProbably just mean the users visit watch store less often than they visit ios app store
- Jtsummers 3y agoThis is monthly ??? Store users. Having an Apple Watch does not imply they use the Apple Watch App Store every month, or even any month. Even having an iPhone does not mean they'll use the iPhone App Store each month (though it's probably more likely).
- pertymcpert 3y agoWe don't call them europoors for nothing! (I'm a European myself)
- gumballindie 3y ago
- systemvoltage 3y agoWait, why is this a regulation? Why should a corporation have to disclose MAU? I’m holding off my cynicism, asking for a friend.
- Someone 3y agoThere’s fairly broad political pressure to regulate large players in online platforms such as Apple and Google. As a result, the EU regulated online platforms. As is often the case, they aren’t stupid, and put more stringent requirements on large players than on smaller ones. So, they have to know which players are smaller and which are larger. They chose to use number of active users as the way to measure whether players are large, with 10% of the population (45 million) a cut-off point. That’s why they require all digital services companies to report # of active users. (Aside: it turns out that Wikipedia is a very large online platform, too. See https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_23_2413 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_23_...)
- greycol 3y agoTo comply with section 24(2) of the DSA. You need to publish that information about your number of EU users. Currently there's no strict rules on how you calculate or even necessarily the information you publish. Other than saying based on your calculation your number of users is below 45 million (in the EU). In the future there will be delegated articles on how the calculation must be done. Obviously the regulation was made in comitee with team of lawyers but I expect the justification for "Why should a corporation have to disclose MAU?" is something like: * The majority of businesses will with minimal work be able to tell the difference between having under say 4 million EU usere and having 45 million eureopean users so they'll know if they're in a range where they should be concerned about the regulations. * If they're getting to a size where they have millions of users (in europe alone) they should have the resources to put in place logging/policy to figure out if they're approaching the 45 million EU users with more confidence. * By making them publish a statement saying they've done what they believe is due dilligence on making sure the rules don't apply then enforcement becomes much easier. Auditing only needs to be done randomly on a handful of sites that declare they're just under the limit and on those who look like they are taking the piss saying they're well below the limit or seem to be growing but keep saying they're just under the limit declaration after declaration. So these numbers are shown in Apple's case because it's in a companies best interest to show they're acting in good faith in working out these numbers (Especially since in Apple's case they're trying to differentiate the services so that they can try to reserve the right to not apply the DSA to some of those services in a possible future). Stating a number (or that you're well below the user limit) implies you've done a real calculation (i.e. I only get 44 million site visits from anywhere in the world every 6 months so I can't have 45 million EU users) and in the case of an audit where it's not the case shows you were acting maliciously/with gross negligence/with a calculation tha needs to be changed, making any enforcement much more justifiable.
- I_am_tiberius 3y agoThis sounds like something I would expect from China.
- frasermarlow 3y ago"Without prejudice to further consideration of the legal characterisation". I am using that in every conversation I have with my wife.
- kyrra 3y agoIt looks like Google has the same report, I hadn't seen it before. https://transparencyreport.google.com/report-downloads https://transparencyreport.google.com/report-downloads