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Observation of Berlin from the weekend I spent there last month: literally the only place I was better off speaking German rather than English was a Turkish caf

Observation of Berlin from the weekend I spent there last month: literally the only place I was better off speaking German rather than English was a Turkish cafe. Everywhere else? Too many people understood English far better than they did German, especially anywhere to do with tech. Some of the tech people I talked to were running into being otherwise eligible for a permanent residence permit, but not being able to manage the moderate language requirements. Contrast with Nuremberg and Erlangen, two relatively international cities in northern Bavaria: you can get around ok in English for anything tourist-related, but you really need to learn some German for day to day life. The B1 level that a permanent residence permit requires is about the right minimum level around here.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jillesvangurp 4y ago
One thing that is specific to Berlin is that increasingly bars and cafes are staffed by foreigners. This is a quirk of the German employment system, a scarcity of staff, and the wide availability of expats in need of gigs. Instead of hiring permanent staff and paying them a salary, it's less risky to have temporary workers. However, you can't do that endlessly with the same people in the German system. You would have to employ them after a while. However, there's a never ending stream of students and other expats flowing through Berlin willing to do that kind of job. So, lots of bars and cafes employ those instead. Also, there are a fair amount of expats that stay in Berlin that open their own businesses.
- Lacerda69 4y ago
  That is only correct for a very small number of hip cafes and restaurants in certain districts tbh. You can employ germans indefinitely without "proper" contract as well through something called "Minijob" and the majority of cafes and restaurant skirt the law and let you work without paying taxes "illegally". Most of the ppl working there are students or in between careers. Only a fraction of the staff will be employed permanently with "real" contracts. source: worked in the industry there for 6+ years
  - AdamN 4y ago
    My wife tried to check into a fancy hotel (nothing hip) in Berlin and the receptionist only spoke English (and presumably some other language). It's not just hipster restaurants. Even when the person does speak German, they're often not a native speaker and speak better English.
    - Lacerda69 3y ago
      correct, hotels/accommodations are another sector that is run mostly through students and minijobbers.
- vintermann 4y ago
  Yes, I was shocked the first time in Oslo when I went to a cafe and understood that the staff didn't understand a word of Norwegian. This is probably a capital thing. There's an expat-run café near where I live (not in Oslo) that employs a lot of US and Australian young people for shorter periods, and if they don't understand Norwegian, they surely do a lot better job of hiding it and guessing what you're asking for.
  - sgt 4y ago
    As a social experiment, tell them you don't speak English. Only Norwegian. See if they manage a few words from their language course. They might actually appreciate being forced to take the leap.
- m_fayer 4y ago
  When I moved to Berlin 15 years ago, this was not the case. Many bars and cafes were staffed by German-speaking people in their 30s - underpaid artistic or intellectual types or professional partiers making an extra buck. This had a particular charm - they were often cranky and unconcerned, but they kept the same job for a long time and you could get to know them and feel like a "regular." This kept me returning to the same places time and again. These days, and especially post-covid, the faces are shockingly young, obviously inexperienced with the skilled or social sides of their job, and seem to never last more than a month or two. The charm is completely gone.
  - Aromasin 3y ago
    I don't think it's much different anywhere else; certainly not in the UK or Ireland at least. My father works in the pub trade. Hospitality work used to just about be well paid enough that one could make good money out of it in while also having the flexibility to pursue other careers - hence why it attracted so many struggling musicians/actors/artist types. In the last decade, because the wages have dropped so low compared to living expenses, we've moved to a model where hospitality work is often done by people in their late teens to mid-twenties, who are living with their parents or in university digs so don't "need" the money to the same degree, just the flexibility. They're doing it for pocket money. People later on on life with kids or other responsibilities simply can't make ends meet and independent cafe/bar/pub owners can't raise wages without going bust, as the running costs have sky-rocketed at a much higher rate than they can acceptably increases prices. People complain about the cost of a pint going up £1, but really the cost per keg is such that it should be £2 more; however, if they charged that price then customers go elsewhere to places they can afford. Wetherspoons or Greene King come to mind. These sort of commercial enterprises can afford to buy a pub outright - so no lease fees - and can reduce their bottom line through economies of scale to a point where independents can't compete. Of course, these corporations don't increase wages because God forbid their billionaire owners and shareholders don't get their cut of the pie.
  - ido 3y ago
    My theory is that this is completely due to the raising cost of housing - it's no longer easy (possible?) do make due in Berlin on that kind of job long-term.
- gpvos 4y ago
  Same for Amsterdam and other expat-heavy places.
- systemtest 4y ago
  If you stay and open a restaurant in Berlin, presumably for the long term, wouldn't that make you an immigrant? There is a Syrian bakery in my street and people don't call him an expat.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    It probably depends on the specifics. In Asia, I've known a fair number of Europeans who have lived there for a significant period of time and I would still think of them as expats.
    - actionfromafar 4y ago
      I thought the "joke" was that expats are white, immigrants are not?
      - WeylandYutani 3y ago
        I make a distinction between a highly educated Japanese person working at a university and a boat refugee from Sudan. Got nothing to do with race. We are a civilised people we judge on economics.
        actionfromafar 3y ago
        And you never let race be a shorthand for economics either.
        CRConrad 3y ago
        Naah, they use method of conveyance for that. Expats are yacht refugees, not boat.
      - te_chris 4y ago
        Definitely true on the whole, but perhaps identity is not the most productive lens to look through. As a white expat/immigrant to the UK, I think it's more about whether you've committed to never returning. It's a very different mindset I find, between those who've moved and are staying put, vs those with the idea of leaving in the back of their minds. The privilege of the expat is being able to hedge for a very long time.
- netsharc 3y ago
  In any case, if you're a EUian, you can live and work in Germany (or any other EU country) just like a native of the country (some restrictions may apply/may have applied, e.g. with the UK (when it was part of the EU) restricting the number of Romanians and other "freshly joined the EU" citizens who could live there). There's even no need to have a high-paying contract like software dev or brain surgeon, you can be a dishwasher. Maybe it's not just EU, but EFTA as well, I was in Iceland and there were a lot of Eastern Europeans working in the retail stores.
  - dfawcus 3y ago
    There are a number of overlapping things. Within the EU, the "four freedoms" apply, of which on "freedom of movement" is the thing mainly at play. The EFTA states have a similar distinct thing between them. How all EFTA states (bar Switzerland - i.e. Iceland, Norway, Lichtenstein) are also in the EEA Agreement, and the EU "four freedoms" also apply there. Switzerland has a raft of linked treaties with the EU, which sort of replicate the EEA agreement, and includes the "four freedoms".
jamil7 4y ago
It depends on where you are and what you're doing in the city. After a long enough time here, that lack of German starts to stunt or limit you to a degree. You'll end up in the same types of places with the same groups of people. Getting colleagues and friends to call places or answer letters or emails for you, or just stumbling along in broken German.
- AdamN 4y ago
  I don't think anybody 'wants' to not know German in Berlin - it's just that they've decided it's not worth the effort at all or they are ok with their A2 level even though it's obviously not ideal. I know trilingual people in Berlin who just aren't going to learn German, a fourth language, beyond A2. I (native English speaker) personally aspire to getting to B2 from my current A2 though.
TomK32 4y ago
Be stubborn and stick to your German even if it is bad, a bilingual conversation is just as fun. It took me as a German a long time to not automatically switch to English when I talk with someone who has little German knowledge.
- seqizz 4y ago
  As someone who still can't speak "good enough" after 6 years in Germany, thank you! Everyone switches to English all the time :)
  - akie 3y ago
    Gern geschehen!
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  This gets harder when you struggle to meet other people who actually speak German.
philippgerard 4y ago
A permanent residency (PR) in Berlin does not require German language skills anymore. Maybe this is official or just established practice but regardless, there’a no reason not to have your PR if you qualify otherwise.
- snassar 4y ago
  Where do you have this information from? The State of Berlin says otherwise https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/121864/en/ https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/121864/en/ : ------ Sufficient knowledge of German You must have an adequate command of the German language (level B 1 of the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages). If you were in possession of either a residence permit or a residence authorisation on 31/12/2004, you only have to demonstrate basic knowledge of the German language (level A 1) to be granted a permanent settlement permit. ------ In practice the staff giving interviewing you have leeway to assess your German level on the spot, but applying without demonstrated adequate German levels could lead to wasting ones time.
  - AdamN 4y ago
    That's for non-EU citizens. There are 360MM non-German EU citizens - some of which are living in Berlin visa-free.
    - bolanyo 4y ago
      There has never been any language requirement for EU citizens to live in Germany or anywhere else, ever since freedom of movement was established.
    - netsharc 3y ago
      Some? Wouldn't they all be visa free? Yeah, that page is for non-EU-ians, because if you're from the EU, due to freedom of movement, you can live and work in any other EU country, and you don't even need to apply for a "permanent resident permit".
      - 3y ago
Silverback_VII 4y ago
The problem is that in most places people want to display their ability to speak English to show their sophistication. Let’s hope that some day speaking another language besides English is a sign of status.
zeta_ 4y ago
The language requirements for a PR are lower if you have a blue card
ricardobayes 4y ago
B1 is actually pretty strict, Spain only requires an A2 even for citizenship (after ten years of being a resident). In a parallel universe, imagine needing to learn B1 Turkish as a German to become a turkish resident. Pretty daunting.
- wink 4y ago
  The funny thing about that is most people who never did a real language test have no idea what these categories even mean. I only learned languages in high school and I never moved to another country. A coworker of mine once tried to explain it to me, but his German and English was pretty much flawless so that didn't help telling me where he (may have) struggled in the past.
  - treis 3y ago
    For anyone else curious: B1 Can understand the main points of clear standard input on familiar matters regularly encountered in work, school, leisure, etc. Can deal with most situations likely to arise whilst travelling in an area where the language is spoken. Can produce simple connected text on topics which are familiar or of personal interest. Can describe experiences and events, dreams, hopes & ambitions and briefly give reasons and explanations for opinions and plans. A2: Can understand sentences and frequently used expressions related to areas of most immediate relevance (e.g. very basic personal and family information, shopping, local geography, employment). Can communicate in simple and routine tasks requiring a simple and direct exchange of information on familiar and routine matters. Can describe in simple terms aspects of his/her background, immediate environment and matters in areas of immediate need.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      I wish I could admit to being able to tell a significant difference between those two lists.
      - muffinman26 3y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

jillesvangurp 4y ago

One thing that is specific to Berlin is that increasingly bars and cafes are staffed by foreigners. This is a quirk of the German employment system, a scarcity of staff, and the wide availability of expats in need of gigs. Instead of hiring permanent staff and paying them a salary, it's less risky to have temporary workers. However, you can't do that endlessly with the same people in the German system. You would have to employ them after a while. However, there's a never ending stream of students and other expats flowing through Berlin willing to do that kind of job. So, lots of bars and cafes employ those instead. Also, there are a fair amount of expats that stay in Berlin that open their own businesses.

Lacerda69 4y ago
That is only correct for a very small number of hip cafes and restaurants in certain districts tbh. You can employ germans indefinitely without "proper" contract as well through something called "Minijob" and the majority of cafes and restaurant skirt the law and let you work without paying taxes "illegally". Most of the ppl working there are students or in between careers. Only a fraction of the staff will be employed permanently with "real" contracts. source: worked in the industry there for 6+ years
- AdamN 4y ago
  My wife tried to check into a fancy hotel (nothing hip) in Berlin and the receptionist only spoke English (and presumably some other language). It's not just hipster restaurants. Even when the person does speak German, they're often not a native speaker and speak better English.
  - Lacerda69 3y ago
    correct, hotels/accommodations are another sector that is run mostly through students and minijobbers.
vintermann 4y ago
Yes, I was shocked the first time in Oslo when I went to a cafe and understood that the staff didn't understand a word of Norwegian. This is probably a capital thing. There's an expat-run café near where I live (not in Oslo) that employs a lot of US and Australian young people for shorter periods, and if they don't understand Norwegian, they surely do a lot better job of hiding it and guessing what you're asking for.
- sgt 4y ago
  As a social experiment, tell them you don't speak English. Only Norwegian. See if they manage a few words from their language course. They might actually appreciate being forced to take the leap.
m_fayer 4y ago
When I moved to Berlin 15 years ago, this was not the case. Many bars and cafes were staffed by German-speaking people in their 30s - underpaid artistic or intellectual types or professional partiers making an extra buck. This had a particular charm - they were often cranky and unconcerned, but they kept the same job for a long time and you could get to know them and feel like a "regular." This kept me returning to the same places time and again. These days, and especially post-covid, the faces are shockingly young, obviously inexperienced with the skilled or social sides of their job, and seem to never last more than a month or two. The charm is completely gone.
- Aromasin 3y ago
  I don't think it's much different anywhere else; certainly not in the UK or Ireland at least. My father works in the pub trade. Hospitality work used to just about be well paid enough that one could make good money out of it in while also having the flexibility to pursue other careers - hence why it attracted so many struggling musicians/actors/artist types. In the last decade, because the wages have dropped so low compared to living expenses, we've moved to a model where hospitality work is often done by people in their late teens to mid-twenties, who are living with their parents or in university digs so don't "need" the money to the same degree, just the flexibility. They're doing it for pocket money. People later on on life with kids or other responsibilities simply can't make ends meet and independent cafe/bar/pub owners can't raise wages without going bust, as the running costs have sky-rocketed at a much higher rate than they can acceptably increases prices. People complain about the cost of a pint going up £1, but really the cost per keg is such that it should be £2 more; however, if they charged that price then customers go elsewhere to places they can afford. Wetherspoons or Greene King come to mind. These sort of commercial enterprises can afford to buy a pub outright - so no lease fees - and can reduce their bottom line through economies of scale to a point where independents can't compete. Of course, these corporations don't increase wages because God forbid their billionaire owners and shareholders don't get their cut of the pie.
- ido 3y ago
  My theory is that this is completely due to the raising cost of housing - it's no longer easy (possible?) do make due in Berlin on that kind of job long-term.
gpvos 4y ago
Same for Amsterdam and other expat-heavy places.
systemtest 4y ago
If you stay and open a restaurant in Berlin, presumably for the long term, wouldn't that make you an immigrant? There is a Syrian bakery in my street and people don't call him an expat.
- ghaff 4y ago
  It probably depends on the specifics. In Asia, I've known a fair number of Europeans who have lived there for a significant period of time and I would still think of them as expats.
  - actionfromafar 4y ago
    I thought the "joke" was that expats are white, immigrants are not?
    - WeylandYutani 3y ago
      I make a distinction between a highly educated Japanese person working at a university and a boat refugee from Sudan. Got nothing to do with race. We are a civilised people we judge on economics.
      - actionfromafar 3y ago
        And you never let race be a shorthand for economics either.
        CRConrad 3y ago
        Naah, they use method of conveyance for that. Expats are yacht refugees, not boat.
    - te_chris 4y ago
      Definitely true on the whole, but perhaps identity is not the most productive lens to look through. As a white expat/immigrant to the UK, I think it's more about whether you've committed to never returning. It's a very different mindset I find, between those who've moved and are staying put, vs those with the idea of leaving in the back of their minds. The privilege of the expat is being able to hedge for a very long time.
netsharc 3y ago
In any case, if you're a EUian, you can live and work in Germany (or any other EU country) just like a native of the country (some restrictions may apply/may have applied, e.g. with the UK (when it was part of the EU) restricting the number of Romanians and other "freshly joined the EU" citizens who could live there). There's even no need to have a high-paying contract like software dev or brain surgeon, you can be a dishwasher. Maybe it's not just EU, but EFTA as well, I was in Iceland and there were a lot of Eastern Europeans working in the retail stores.
- dfawcus 3y ago
  There are a number of overlapping things. Within the EU, the "four freedoms" apply, of which on "freedom of movement" is the thing mainly at play. The EFTA states have a similar distinct thing between them. How all EFTA states (bar Switzerland - i.e. Iceland, Norway, Lichtenstein) are also in the EEA Agreement, and the EU "four freedoms" also apply there. Switzerland has a raft of linked treaties with the EU, which sort of replicate the EEA agreement, and includes the "four freedoms".

jamil7 4y ago

It depends on where you are and what you're doing in the city. After a long enough time here, that lack of German starts to stunt or limit you to a degree. You'll end up in the same types of places with the same groups of people. Getting colleagues and friends to call places or answer letters or emails for you, or just stumbling along in broken German.

AdamN 4y ago
I don't think anybody 'wants' to not know German in Berlin - it's just that they've decided it's not worth the effort at all or they are ok with their A2 level even though it's obviously not ideal. I know trilingual people in Berlin who just aren't going to learn German, a fourth language, beyond A2. I (native English speaker) personally aspire to getting to B2 from my current A2 though.

TomK32 4y ago

Be stubborn and stick to your German even if it is bad, a bilingual conversation is just as fun. It took me as a German a long time to not automatically switch to English when I talk with someone who has little German knowledge.

seqizz 4y ago
As someone who still can't speak "good enough" after 6 years in Germany, thank you! Everyone switches to English all the time :)
- akie 3y ago
  Gern geschehen!
AlecSchueler 4y ago
This gets harder when you struggle to meet other people who actually speak German.

philippgerard 4y ago

A permanent residency (PR) in Berlin does not require German language skills anymore. Maybe this is official or just established practice but regardless, there’a no reason not to have your PR if you qualify otherwise.

snassar 4y ago
Where do you have this information from? The State of Berlin says otherwise https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/121864/en/ https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/121864/en/ : ------ Sufficient knowledge of German You must have an adequate command of the German language (level B 1 of the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages). If you were in possession of either a residence permit or a residence authorisation on 31/12/2004, you only have to demonstrate basic knowledge of the German language (level A 1) to be granted a permanent settlement permit. ------ In practice the staff giving interviewing you have leeway to assess your German level on the spot, but applying without demonstrated adequate German levels could lead to wasting ones time.
- AdamN 4y ago
  That's for non-EU citizens. There are 360MM non-German EU citizens - some of which are living in Berlin visa-free.
  - bolanyo 4y ago
    There has never been any language requirement for EU citizens to live in Germany or anywhere else, ever since freedom of movement was established.
  - netsharc 3y ago
    Some? Wouldn't they all be visa free? Yeah, that page is for non-EU-ians, because if you're from the EU, due to freedom of movement, you can live and work in any other EU country, and you don't even need to apply for a "permanent resident permit".
    - 3y ago

Silverback_VII 4y ago

The problem is that in most places people want to display their ability to speak English to show their sophistication. Let’s hope that some day speaking another language besides English is a sign of status.

zeta_ 4y ago

The language requirements for a PR are lower if you have a blue card

ricardobayes 4y ago

B1 is actually pretty strict, Spain only requires an A2 even for citizenship (after ten years of being a resident). In a parallel universe, imagine needing to learn B1 Turkish as a German to become a turkish resident. Pretty daunting.

wink 4y ago
The funny thing about that is most people who never did a real language test have no idea what these categories even mean. I only learned languages in high school and I never moved to another country. A coworker of mine once tried to explain it to me, but his German and English was pretty much flawless so that didn't help telling me where he (may have) struggled in the past.
- treis 3y ago
  For anyone else curious: B1 Can understand the main points of clear standard input on familiar matters regularly encountered in work, school, leisure, etc. Can deal with most situations likely to arise whilst travelling in an area where the language is spoken. Can produce simple connected text on topics which are familiar or of personal interest. Can describe experiences and events, dreams, hopes & ambitions and briefly give reasons and explanations for opinions and plans. A2: Can understand sentences and frequently used expressions related to areas of most immediate relevance (e.g. very basic personal and family information, shopping, local geography, employment). Can communicate in simple and routine tasks requiring a simple and direct exchange of information on familiar and routine matters. Can describe in simple terms aspects of his/her background, immediate environment and matters in areas of immediate need.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    I wish I could admit to being able to tell a significant difference between those two lists.
    - muffinman26 3y ago