5 ms·

Ok? You can play the victim all you want but entry into tech is by every measure easier than comparably compensated career fields.

giantg2 3y ago
And that's not what's being discussed here. What we are discusing is the distorted view in the original comment. The original comment was comparing the top earners of one field to the median earners for another. It would be better to compare the medians. For example median dev salary is about $110k. Median physician salary is about $205k. So no, these are not comparably paying jobs. And one does not "easily" earn more than a physician simply by enjoying learning.
- evilduck 3y ago
  I have an employee right now with Bachelor of Art in Music whose career in music fizzled out making $190k today in software outside of SV. That's it. That's his software credentials. A physician lost far more money in life getting their degree and spends about that gap in pay in malpractice insurance and professional attire required to work in a hospital, and generally works more hours at a higher stress level. Your bitterness is completely blinding you.
  - aio2 3y ago
    Yall need to calm your asses. It's just a comparison to other job
    - giantg2 3y ago
      It's more than that. It's the continuation of a distorted view of reality in which the world is a meritocracy and everyone can be rich if they just try hard enough. That's there's nothing stopping anyone from taking a job that doesn't require years of training and making 2x+ the median for that role and using just an anecdote to back it up. This type of stuff is detrimental to the choices and mental health of the next generation - expecting things that don't exist and then being crushed by reality.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - aio2 3y ago
        It's up to you to percieve this the way you wish, but please don't not force these assumptions onto other people. Thanks!
        giantg2 3y ago
        Not an assumption. You can look up median wages on the BLS and see they are vastly different.
        imtringued 3y ago
        Ah yes, the good old other people's life's are "forced assumptions".
  - giantg2 3y ago
    That's one example. Look at the medians. I mean, this is HN not Reddit. We should be looking at the data.
    - evilduck 3y ago
      Look at the data then, because your cherry picking nonsense to support your sob story is tiring. https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm Sorting by annual income, software developers are surrounded by more highly credentialed career options that are much harder to get into or are surrounded by similar paying roles that much more sparsely available per capita.
      - giantg2 3y ago
        What sob story? Are those immediately adjacent roles physicians - no, they're making almost double nased on median hourly wage. There are many near that level that do not require extensive training, including ones that have sizable representation (look at all those manager positions, and FYI magistrates are near there and require no law degree, etc). Had that person used nurses, PAs, etc, then they would have been correct. Those do have training requirements and make similar money. FYI, that's the mean annual income. I'm talking about median (use the median hourly wage column).
        pipes 3y ago
        Good grief, what are you angry at? Do you not like working in tech?
        giantg2 3y ago
        I guess you could say I'm angry at blatant misinformation.
        tarboreus 3y ago
        Person doesn't seem that angry?
- 908B64B197 3y ago
  > For example median dev salary is about $110k. Median physician salary is about $205k. That's an interesting point, but what to the distributions look like? For devs there's evidence it might be bimodal [0]. [0] http://danluu.com/bimodal-compensation/ http://danluu.com/bimodal-compensation/
  - giantg2 3y ago
    It would be interesting to see what that looks like adjusted for location/COL. It's possible the comp due to cost of living with a high concentration of devs in one area might be enough to influence this. Until we understand that and compare it to the distribution for physicians, it would be hard to draw any conclusions from it.
    - 908B64B197 3y ago
      > adjusted for location/COL Isn't the majority of COL housing? Of course, with a mortgage, you actually build equity into an asset (the house) that you can later resell. From my experience, SV caliber devs command SV comp pretty much worldwide.
      - giantg2 3y ago
        I'm not sure how that can be true. I would expect the if there were demand for the higher quality devs then we would see them skewing the distribution locally (like on Glassdoor). There are certainly some higher paid devs in the distribution, but the overall distribution is lower than SV. If the demand is low, then I would also assume the pay would be lower.
        908B64B197 3y ago
        > I would expect the if there were demand for the higher quality devs then we would see them skewing the distribution locally (like on Glassdoor). Glassdoor or salary surveys aren't the most reliable source of information for outliers. There's a proportion of devs that are flying completely under the radar and who are completely invisible to most local companies, even if they are in the same "local market" [0]. Because they are extremely valuable, they don't interview a lot and tend to hop between companies where they know people (or get fast tracked internally). When hiring is red hot, they might completely disappear from the hiring pool by junior year. [0] https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-salaries-in-the-netherlands-and-europe/ https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-sala...
- Kranar 3y ago
  > So no, these are not comparably paying jobs. And one does not "easily" earn more than a physician simply by enjoying learning. To become a physician requires on the order of half a million dollars in tuition not to mention the lost opportunity cost of around 8-10 years. It's tough to say but being a dev likely pays off all things considered.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    There are alternatives, such as the military programs that will pay those bills for about an 8 year commitment. But yes, I agree that being a programmer is better from an opportunity cost perspective. What I'm disagreeing with is the claim that devs make the same as docs. When looking at the medians, it's closer to half. If they had compared to to nurses or PAs, then it would be more appropriate.
    - chii 3y ago
      These alternatives require that you take a risk else where, such as the military one where you're going to have to be enlisted. There's no free lunch.
- hellisothers 3y ago
  Keep in mind almost all “salary” data I’ve seen for tech is just that, “salary”, it doesn’t include RSUs which begin to make up 50% or more of your TC which brings it to parity (or more) in your examples.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    Someone else posted a link to actual income which still showed the median was about half. "Wages", according to the BLS, include bonuses and other comp. Stuff that vests or is deferred might not be counted. Even if it isn't, that's a small percentage of devs even earning them and wouldn't change the median much. https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm

giantg2 3y ago

And that's not what's being discussed here. What we are discusing is the distorted view in the original comment. The original comment was comparing the top earners of one field to the median earners for another. It would be better to compare the medians. For example median dev salary is about $110k. Median physician salary is about $205k. So no, these are not comparably paying jobs. And one does not "easily" earn more than a physician simply by enjoying learning.

evilduck 3y ago
I have an employee right now with Bachelor of Art in Music whose career in music fizzled out making $190k today in software outside of SV. That's it. That's his software credentials. A physician lost far more money in life getting their degree and spends about that gap in pay in malpractice insurance and professional attire required to work in a hospital, and generally works more hours at a higher stress level. Your bitterness is completely blinding you.
- aio2 3y ago
  Yall need to calm your asses. It's just a comparison to other job
  - giantg2 3y ago
    It's more than that. It's the continuation of a distorted view of reality in which the world is a meritocracy and everyone can be rich if they just try hard enough. That's there's nothing stopping anyone from taking a job that doesn't require years of training and making 2x+ the median for that role and using just an anecdote to back it up. This type of stuff is detrimental to the choices and mental health of the next generation - expecting things that don't exist and then being crushed by reality.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - aio2 3y ago
      It's up to you to percieve this the way you wish, but please don't not force these assumptions onto other people. Thanks!
      - giantg2 3y ago
        Not an assumption. You can look up median wages on the BLS and see they are vastly different.
      - imtringued 3y ago
        Ah yes, the good old other people's life's are "forced assumptions".
- giantg2 3y ago
  That's one example. Look at the medians. I mean, this is HN not Reddit. We should be looking at the data.
  - evilduck 3y ago
    Look at the data then, because your cherry picking nonsense to support your sob story is tiring. https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm Sorting by annual income, software developers are surrounded by more highly credentialed career options that are much harder to get into or are surrounded by similar paying roles that much more sparsely available per capita.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      What sob story? Are those immediately adjacent roles physicians - no, they're making almost double nased on median hourly wage. There are many near that level that do not require extensive training, including ones that have sizable representation (look at all those manager positions, and FYI magistrates are near there and require no law degree, etc). Had that person used nurses, PAs, etc, then they would have been correct. Those do have training requirements and make similar money. FYI, that's the mean annual income. I'm talking about median (use the median hourly wage column).
      - pipes 3y ago
        Good grief, what are you angry at? Do you not like working in tech?
        giantg2 3y ago
        I guess you could say I'm angry at blatant misinformation.
        tarboreus 3y ago
        Person doesn't seem that angry?
908B64B197 3y ago
> For example median dev salary is about $110k. Median physician salary is about $205k. That's an interesting point, but what to the distributions look like? For devs there's evidence it might be bimodal [0]. [0] http://danluu.com/bimodal-compensation/ http://danluu.com/bimodal-compensation/
- giantg2 3y ago
  It would be interesting to see what that looks like adjusted for location/COL. It's possible the comp due to cost of living with a high concentration of devs in one area might be enough to influence this. Until we understand that and compare it to the distribution for physicians, it would be hard to draw any conclusions from it.
  - 908B64B197 3y ago
    > adjusted for location/COL Isn't the majority of COL housing? Of course, with a mortgage, you actually build equity into an asset (the house) that you can later resell. From my experience, SV caliber devs command SV comp pretty much worldwide.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      I'm not sure how that can be true. I would expect the if there were demand for the higher quality devs then we would see them skewing the distribution locally (like on Glassdoor). There are certainly some higher paid devs in the distribution, but the overall distribution is lower than SV. If the demand is low, then I would also assume the pay would be lower.
      - 908B64B197 3y ago
        > I would expect the if there were demand for the higher quality devs then we would see them skewing the distribution locally (like on Glassdoor). Glassdoor or salary surveys aren't the most reliable source of information for outliers. There's a proportion of devs that are flying completely under the radar and who are completely invisible to most local companies, even if they are in the same "local market" [0]. Because they are extremely valuable, they don't interview a lot and tend to hop between companies where they know people (or get fast tracked internally). When hiring is red hot, they might completely disappear from the hiring pool by junior year. [0] https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-salaries-in-the-netherlands-and-europe/ https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-sala...
Kranar 3y ago
> So no, these are not comparably paying jobs. And one does not "easily" earn more than a physician simply by enjoying learning. To become a physician requires on the order of half a million dollars in tuition not to mention the lost opportunity cost of around 8-10 years. It's tough to say but being a dev likely pays off all things considered.
- giantg2 3y ago
  There are alternatives, such as the military programs that will pay those bills for about an 8 year commitment. But yes, I agree that being a programmer is better from an opportunity cost perspective. What I'm disagreeing with is the claim that devs make the same as docs. When looking at the medians, it's closer to half. If they had compared to to nurses or PAs, then it would be more appropriate.
  - chii 3y ago
    These alternatives require that you take a risk else where, such as the military one where you're going to have to be enlisted. There's no free lunch.
hellisothers 3y ago
Keep in mind almost all “salary” data I’ve seen for tech is just that, “salary”, it doesn’t include RSUs which begin to make up 50% or more of your TC which brings it to parity (or more) in your examples.
- giantg2 3y ago
  Someone else posted a link to actual income which still showed the median was about half. "Wages", according to the BLS, include bonuses and other comp. Stuff that vests or is deferred might not be counted. Even if it isn't, that's a small percentage of devs even earning them and wouldn't change the median much. https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm