20 ms·

The Great Electrician Shortage

175 points by cocacola1 4y ago

GalenErso 4y ago
Isn't it almost impossible to become an apprentice electrician if you don't have family connections to unions? A few comments from this Reddit thread: https://old.reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/104fooe/america_needs_carpenters_and_plumbers_try_telling/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/104fooe/america_... > It’s hard, because the formally decent paying apprentice programs pay has stayed about the same while working, fast food or whatever has gone up a lot. Working at Taco Bell for $18 an hour is less physically demanding than being a grunt laborer for 15. > Our local IBEW apprentices start at $19/hr with another 9.50/hr in benefits. First raise is an extra $2 on the check and another $2 in benefits after 1000 hours or roughly 6 months. > I almost accepted a plumbing apprenticeship when I was 26 but the starting wage was so low I just wouldn’t have been able to live. If I could go back in time though I’d try getting into a trade or automotive work by 18. > I tried becoming an electrician after the military. No where had any interest in taking on an apprentice. > One friend of mine saved and left her corporate job to become an electrician, only to find boomer electricians wouldn’t apprentice a woman. Just one anecdote, of course. > I got out of the Army, and tried to join the local union as an apprentice. It was a 6-8 months selection process before I could even start. It took longer and was more challenging to try and get into a trade then the military. > The trades pay shite. I’m a third term apprentice and it’s hard work for not much more than McDonald’s. Maybe the whole journeyman/apprentice system needs to be dismantled.
- denimnerd42 4y ago
  Yup.. the system takes forever to advance through. If you don't start at 18 it's hard to justify doing. Regulations need to be changed but I don't see that happening.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- CaliforniaKarl 4y ago
  One of the best High Volt electricians we have at work is a woman. She’s an integral part of keeping out data centers working, and we’re actively hiring for an apprentice High Volt electrician!
- jandrese 4y ago
  The funny thing is the rate charged to customers has skyrocketed in the past decade, yet the wages for the electricians are apparently stagnant?
  - vkou 4y ago
    Middlemen and managers are pocketing the difference. When you hear about tradespeople pulling in mid-six figures, they generally aren't in the trenches, laying down pipes or wiring cables.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    Productivity and wages (across the board, not just electricians) diverged around 1980. https://www.epi.org/blog/growing-inequalities-reflecting-growing-employer-power-have-generated-a-productivity-pay-gap-since-1979-productivity-has-grown-3-5-times-as-much-as-pay-for-the-typical-worker/ https://www.epi.org/blog/growing-inequalities-reflecting-gro...
    - JustSomeNobody 4y ago
      It never trickled down. It floated up.
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    More central management with large shops/conglomerates/chains, fewer small shops and independents, maybe? You know, "market efficiency".
    - geodel 4y ago
      Yup, leveraging the synergy all the way.
  - JustSomeNobody 4y ago
    That's the case with so many things. If a nickel can be squeezed out of the working class and diverted to the wealthy, it surely will.
  - 4y ago
- bsder 4y ago
  California IBEW seems to start an apprentice at $27 and goes up to $54. Seems eminently reasonable?
  - GalenErso 4y ago
    $27 in a HCOL state like California in 2023 is ... not great, even for an entry-level position.
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      A friend is a journeyman lineman in NorCal and makes ~$300k/year + pension rebuilding PG&E infra. Lives in a lovely rural $800k home. Started his career climbing poles in Illinois, straight out of high school.
      - akavi 4y ago
        Your friend is a massive outlier in the pay distribution of electricians. He's either gaming the overtime system somehow, or has a unique set of specialized skills (or some regulatory arbitrage combo of both).
        SoftTalker 4y ago
        Have you seen what linemen do? Work with heavy transmission lines dozens or hundreds of feet in the air, at night, in the rain, etc. They earn every penny of whatever they make IMO.
        toomuchtodo 4y ago
        Based on the state of PG&E infra from public records and committed capex/infra spend, I'm more inclined to believe the overtime is warranted due to This Is All Terrible And Will Take Decades To Fix. I'll ask! Where there is chaos, there is usually money to be made. https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news-release/2022/10/safety-investigation-faults-pges-failure-maintain-aging https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news-release/2022/10/safet... https://theintercept.com/2019/10/11/pge-power-shutdown-california/ https://theintercept.com/2019/10/11/pge-power-shutdown-calif... https://www.naturalgasintel.com/pge-bets-big-on-infrastructure-projects-to-move-utility-into-new-era/ https://www.naturalgasintel.com/pge-bets-big-on-infrastructu... https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/about-pge/environment/what-we-are-doing/electric-program-investment-charge/2021-EPIC-Annual-Report.pdf https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/about-pge/environ...
- mcbishop 4y ago
  My hack was to offer two months of free work to a local electrician (I was fortunate to be able to do that). He took me up on it, and it worked out. He and I now have an arrangement where I can do my own electrical (solar) projects under his license (with his availability for questions) for a flat per-project fee. ...This pays much better than the hourly rate as an employed apprentice.
- rossdavidh 4y ago
  Varies a lot by state. I have a friend (was ringbearer at my wedding when he was a wee lad), and he did a lot of research on which state to go through this in (he chose Colorado, btw). The journeyman/apprentice system, for all its problems, is probably a net bonus to the lifetime wages, since it prevents a huge surge of new entrants in a short time. Also, although it may not be all we would want, it does probably prevent the worst safety/incompetence concerns that we would have if it were left to the market (since people hiring electricians often don't have the knowledge to tell if they are competent or not).
denimnerd42 4y ago
The regulatory requirements for electricians and plumbers take so long to advance through that if you don't choose it at a young age it's hardly possible to justify doing later.
- vkou 4y ago
  If the pay (At the lower/upper/both certification levels) were better, people would justify it.
  - mdgrech23 4y ago
    Wife's Dad was a plumber. He made better money running hydraulic fluid to the machines at the GM plant than he did bringing clean water to people and disposing of their waste. This boggles me my mind. Clean drinking water and the ability to safely and sanitarily escort your shit out of your house is so vital yet these guys get paid shit. Capitalisms don't always reward what really matters.
    - jtbayly 4y ago
      Capitalism just says that whoever is willing to pay more has the priority. GM was willing and able to pay more than a single consumer? That’s not a surprise. Their factory couldn’t run without it.
  - denimnerd42 4y ago
    The pay will never increase because you need the master to hire you to become a master yourself. So they have so much power. You just have to suck it up when you're young and then capitalize on your master license later. That's one reason it won't easily change. The masters have the power and they are entrenched with it. Will the masters that sit on these state regulatory boards or however it works ever vote to decrease the requirements? No it would have to be a revolution or coup.
    - morkalork 4y ago
      In smaller towns, some masters aren't even interested in taking apprentices because they don't want the future competition.
mdorazio 4y ago
https://archive.is/qKH9C https://archive.is/qKH9C
zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago
My brother went to school for residential and commercial electrician stuff. He quit after a few years because of low pay, long hours, traveling, and unexpected layoffs. I almost forgot the craziest part. The Christmas bonus at his company was funded by all the copper they were able to take from jobs and sell
- itsoktocry 4y ago
  >He quit after a few years because of low pay, long hours, traveling, and unexpected layoffs In my area of Canada, demand for this work is so high you can work as much or little as you want, independently, for $50+ an hour. Nothing to sneeze at. Just need that entrepreneurial itch.
  - briffle 4y ago
    And a license, insurance, transportation, a place to sleep, eat, proably storage for all your stuff that doesn't fit in your vehicle, etc.
  - zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago
    This was over 10 years ago in North Dakota.
    - themaninthedark 4y ago
      So what does he do now? I know many white collar workers who also lost their jobs to sudden layoffs a little over 10 years ago...
      - zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago
        He works for a DAO organizing meetings and stuff and does moderating/customer support type stuff for that blockchain
- nuancebydefault 4y ago
  So workers were incentivised to downgrade 10 euro/meter wire paid by customers into scrap of 40 cents per kg? No respect for customers, no respect for the workers and no respect for the environment.
tennisflyi 4y ago
Look up the median on BLS and tell me if this is all it’s made out to be. Wow. $45k/year…
- UncleOxidant 4y ago
  But electricians working for themselves must be making a lot more than that? Last time I called an electrician it was $100 for him to step in the door and $150/hr for the work and that was about 10 years ago.
  - SoftTalker 4y ago
    If they are working for themselves yes. But remember they have to not only pay themselves but pay for their truck, their tools, their fuel and their time to drive out to your house, their accountant or bookkeeper, maybe someone who answers their phone and does their schedule, etc. If they are working for someone else, they need to cover all the overhead of the business.
    - tuatoru 4y ago
      Also time not billable to jobs, and vacation time, and rework (hopefully this is minimal). And insurance - that's a biggie.
  - the_only_law 4y ago
    It’s like comparing a software developer with a very successful startup founder who started a software business and saying: “Look programmers can be billionaires” to goad kids into going into software development.
  - redavni 4y ago
    If they can pay for the insurance.
  - dghlsakjg 4y ago
    The sparkie is also going to show up with $75k worth of equipment and vehicle too. They might be charging that much, but how many hours/day are they charging that much, and what are their costs?
booleandilemma 4y ago
It's just an effect of the market right? Why become an electrician when you can become a programmer (with no license requirements whatsoever) and make double. All while working from home, or in a nice office.
- mdgrech23 4y ago
  100% this. I've been getting into home improvement and I was wondering what it would be like to do that for a living. Took a look at the wages and noped the f out of that.
  - poisonarena 4y ago
    "100% this"
  - eldavido 4y ago
    I've noticed this with a lot of professions. Comp is back-loaded. They start much lower than software, but the good ones make it up in the end by being owners and having a crew of 10-20 work for them, and earning margin on their labor. Regulation and professionalization (e.g. you need to be licensed) seem to encourage this. Software, assuming one doesn't go into management, seem to have a more linear comp structure. You start much higher, but it doesn't ramp as dramatically as most trade/licensed professions as you go up. Probably because there's less regulation/capture so even entry-level people keep more of what they produce, vs the almost-feudal nature of many trades/professions. Just what I've seen, anyway.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      > the good ones make it up in the end by being owners and having a crew of 10-20 work for them, and earning margin on their labor. Regulation and professionalization (e.g. you need to be licensed) seem to encourage this. Good luck with this strategy after decades of declining and still to decline fertility rates.
mdorazio 4y ago
My brother is in HVAC, so my perspective on this is biased, but in general there's a blue collar shortage because the job still sucks. First, you have pretty high barriers to entry in the form of apprenticeships and per-state licensing requirements. Then you have the shit hours and shit customers that expect those shit hours. My brother got angry calls from customers because he dared to say no when they wanted him to ditch his daughter's birthday party on a Saturday to go fix their AC immediately. Then you have the actual pay which just isn't that great unless you're an established business owner with a good clientele - as others have pointed out (and the article itself points out), the real pay after you sort through all the outlier stories is pretty low. So, option A is you go to college, immediately get a job with zero hurdles up front, sit behind a desk from 9-5, and collect a solid paycheck. Option B is you go to trade school, then make next to nothing apprenticing for years, then you make somewhere around median income while driving a truck all over the place working in shitty conditions and getting chewed out by people who expect you to be available 24/7.
- xattt 4y ago
  > First, you have pretty high barriers to entry in the form of apprenticeships and per-state licensing requirements. Your brother’s story can also be applied to the shortage of nurses/allied health staff in Canada.
  - Tangurena2 4y ago
    Nursing goes through boom & bust cycles. When wages start creeping up, the media is full of "OMG! Shortage of nurses!" Then as too many youngsters start nursing, the job market gets flooded and nurses quit. In previous decades, nurses quit to make more money elsewhere. After COVID, nurses are just plain burned out. Medical staff got too abused by mismanagers and assaults by anti-vax people, this results in them quitting - no amount of money will keep them.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- aidenn0 4y ago
  Everyone I know who does blue collar work echoes what you said. It's pretty broken on the other side of things too, presumably because the work sucks so much and is so variable that they are incentivized to milk every penny from those who appear like they can afford it. As a busy professional homeowner that is well-paid, I would gladly pay 50% more than the current going rate in town to know that a decent, workmanlike job would be done. The quality of the work is completely decoupled from the rates charged though, which kind of makes sense, as there are plenty of people in town who need HVAC/plumbing/electrical &c. work done who can't afford to pay over the going rate. It took me a decade to find a plumber that is honest (luckily they do decent work as well, but honest was hard enough of a bar to reach).
meetingthrower 4y ago
It's a truly amazing market failure. Up here in New England, you can't get an electrician for love or money. And if you do, you are paying $75 an hour for the lowliest apprentice. But you go on Reddit, and the poor schlubs in the rest of the country are making <$20 an hour to start. You can make more at McDonalds. I talked to a friend of mine who runs a big corp electrician unit for a utility. He cannot hire anyone at the rates he wants to pay, and says he cannot pay them market because then he'd "have to reset the comp for his entire 100 man crew." The journeymen coming in are asking for more than supervisor pay (and they should be getting it!) I predict we are in for more inflation as this works its way through the system.
- GalenErso 4y ago
  This is where YouTube and DIY forums come in. It doesn't require advanced knowledge to perform most electrical repairs and maintenance oneself, and young people's practical skills have atrophied compared to their parents and grandparents at the same age, and I say this as one of those young people.
  - SoftTalker 4y ago
    Yes I can't really think of any electrical job around the house that I could not do myself. Calling in an electrician to change an outlet is expensive because such trivial work is boring and they don't really want to do it. Sort of like hiring a senior developer to change a heading on a web page. So they charge a lot. They also have to cover the cost of travel to and from the house, even to change a $5 wall outlet.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      I'd probably pay someone to redo the panel. I could definitely do it, but it's tedious and I'd be pulling the meter to get it done anyway, at which point the conversation with the power company will be smoother if a licensed electrician is having it. But everything else is fair game. It's really straightforward. The part I hate the most is fixing the drywall if I have to damage it running some new wire.
Workaccount2 4y ago
Fast track the learning process to catch all the white collars who are on the cusp of being automated out of a job.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- tuatoru 4y ago
  I laughed out loud, imagining the enormous spike in musculoskeletal, joint and tendon injuries and disability claims. White collars are cripples.
briffle 4y ago
Every time you see an article about "we cant find enough employees" its like they need to also include a second half of that sentance: "to match our requirements, at the wages we want to pay".
rcarr 4y ago
At this point in my life, I think I would quite happily become a tradie. Would anyone pay me a living wage whilst I was an apprentice? No. Will the government top up my wages so I can survive whilst on the apprenticeship? No. Will the government offer free or subsidised training so I can learn in my spare time whilst working another job? No. Will the government give a bunch of money away to their mates in dodgy covid contracts? Yes. Will they let bankers get away with tanking the entire economy? Yes. Will they do anything and everything they possibly can to support landlords who don't offer anything productive to the economy? Yes. In the words of the Joker, you get what you fucking deserve.
- Panzer04 4y ago
  The clear best option would be to get rid of the apprenticeship system - test for what they actually care about, greatly shorten the working experience period (engineers have to do 3-6mo on an education). If it was possible to get a sparky license in 3-6 months I’d probably do it!
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    My bet is everyone who's gone through the process of becoming a journeyman or master electrician would fight tooth and nail to keep the apprenticeship system. It's not going away.
  - MrBuddyCasino 4y ago
    They tried this here in Germany. The problem is that masters then have no incentive to teach the young, because they will jump ship ASAP, and the general quality level of the whole trade degrades. I think they rolled back some of that.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  At this point, I'd happily become a tradie if I could skip the slaving away part and go directly to owning the business. I know someone who did that, and totally illegally. Told his customers he was a licensed electrician but it was actually one of his employees' licenses he was giving. Got away with it while he earned his way into his own license. More risk than my personal tolerance would allow.
retrocryptid 4y ago
Industry: we don't have nearly enough electricians. Electricians: maybe pay us more. I: It's a complete mystery. We can't figure it out. E: pay us more I: Maybe we should try to use AI to figure out how to install wire more efficiently. E: or you could pay us more. I: we should create a billion dollar fund to pay for graduate students to research why we don't have enough electricians. E: or you could pay electricians more. I: SHUT UP, PEASANT!
- DrThunder 4y ago
  They have unions. Unions are doing a terrible job of negotiating and/or keeping the prices low.
  - ProllyInfamous 4y ago
    I'm a former IBEW (Union Electrician) member and I have TONS to say about this: I absolutely agree that unions are not negotiating rates to keep up with inflation. Worse, many jurisdictions are creating new positions that are assistant helpers, with compensation typically a quarter of journeyman rate, NO BENEFITS, and really isn't intended to lead into apprenticeships. This is NOT the CW/CE program, which was already controversially rolled out early 2000's... it is basically a burn-through-help and then don't even give them healthcare. I just cannot imagine how skilled trades are going to be affected when most LUs negotiate 3-year contracts, and the past three years won't be anything like the next three years (i.e. it's only going to get exponentially worse)! Also, I am not yet forty and am looking for another career as a partially disabled dude.
- Tangurena2 4y ago
  My state requires 6 years of on-the-job employment before you can get a journeyman's license. Or 4 years of employment with an apprenticeship program.
7speter 4y ago
Yawn. The story that starts the article (that tells the same story about the trades that all of these articles tell) takes place in Connecticut, but in NYC, homeowners aren’t allowed to touch anything electrical behind a wall. You have to pay an electrician to do the work. Meanwhile, every year on the news there are people camping out for electrician apprenticeships (theres a shortage in the city as far as I can understand) and most get turned away. Anyways, the funny thing is that if you’re college educated and willing to take things step by step, and buy a good set of tools, and read your local municipalities code (the most recent copy of electrical code in nyc is something like 180 dollars instead of being freely available, dunno if its like that elsewhere), you can probably do your own repairs, arrange a schedule to have anyone who needs to jackhammer and run a connection somewhere on your property, have the electric company run whatevers needed wherever and have an inspector look over the work to either certify it or tell you whats wrong.
- Tangurena2 4y ago
  The NYC electric code is based on the National Electric Code from a few years earlier. Everywhere else uses the National Electric Code which is like $150. https://www.nyc.gov/site/buildings/codes/electrical-code.page https://www.nyc.gov/site/buildings/codes/electrical-code.pag...
  - rovolo 4y ago
    The NEC is also free online (with registration). The NYC amendments are also available starting on page 30 of "Local Law 39 of 2011" linked from the page. > 27-3025 The New York city amendments to the 2008 National Electrical Code. The following New York City amendments to the 2008 National Electrical Code are hereby adopted as set forth in this section. In the event of conflicts between technical provisions, the more restrictive shall apply: 2008 NEC New York City Amendment https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70 https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-stand... https://www.nyc.gov/assets/buildings/pdf/ll39of2011_electrical_code.pdf https://www.nyc.gov/assets/buildings/pdf/ll39of2011_electric...
emptybits 4y ago
Canadian perspective here. The median wage of an electrician in Canada is CAD$30/hr (approx €20/hr or USD$22/hr).[1] Not great. That requires a four to five year apprenticeship and the prospects for electricians in the near future is considered "very limited" in the province I live in (BC), which is among the nicest places to live and also the most expensive.[3] (And pays electricians lower than the national median.) So IMO that hourly wage standard needs to go WAY up before it's considered tempting. Most electricians here work on new projects and there is great reluctance to increase the cost of construction projects (e.g. worker pay) any more than it has already jumped in the last few years. [1] https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/marketreport/wages-occupation/20684/ca https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/marketreport/wages-occupation/2068... [2] https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/outlookreport/occupation/20684 https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/outlookreport/occupation/20684
- pcthrowaway 4y ago
  I'm inclined to believe the job bank numbers here are incorrect, based on what it lists for software engineers, which seems a bit low: https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/marketreport/wages-occupation/5485/ca https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/marketreport/wages-occupation/5485... Assuming 1880 hours per year (52 weeks * 40 hours - 120 vacation hours - 80 stat day hours), that would imply the median wage in BC is $99414 Levels reports a median pay in Vancouver (where I assume at least 60% of the software engineers in BC are) of $156K, and $130K in Victoria. While Levels may be off, I think real wages are somewhere in the middle.
  - dghlsakjg 4y ago
    Tech jobs in BC are notoriously low paid for the cost of living. The Job Bank website pulls from tax filing data so is going to be pretty reflective of real positions. I was clearing $80k CAD as a mid level dev pre-covid, and that was considered on the higher end for a mid level dev. I switched to working for a US company during covid since no one in Vancouver could match the pay.
    - pcthrowaway 4y ago
      > The Job Bank website pulls from tax filing data so is going to be pretty reflective of real positions The data here is completely survey-based, not based on tax filing. The primary source is Statistics Canada's Labour Force Survey. This survey is conducted using a sample of respondents and data may be suppressed for reasons of confidentiality or data quality, but it is the most inclusive, timely and unbiased source of wage data by occupational group. When the Labour Force Survey data is not available, other sources are considered, including: Employment and Social Development Canada program data such as Employment Insurance program survey data The Census Provincial and territorial surveys and administrative data Other organizations administrative data, such as the Canadian Institute for Health Information and the Canadian Medical Association Other sources when applicable First published in November 2022, Small Area Estimations developed by Statistics Canada were added as a new data source.
samtho 4y ago
I apprenticed as an electrician in California briefly as my father was in construction. I decided quickly that I did not like crawling in hot attics, getting bit by black widows, and (worse of all) dealing with customers who think this is a minimum wage job.
- knallfrosch 4y ago
  The more honest the work, the less the pay
ars 4y ago
The typical answer to this is "pay more". But that just shifts the problem to some other field "not enough plumbers", "not enough something else". There's just not enough people to do all the work that needs doing, and not enough money available to pay all of them. For any individual trade you can "solve it" by paying more - but how do you solve it for all the work that needs doing? We need to dramatically simplify how much work it takes to do something, or make things last longer, or both.
- nitwit005 4y ago
  I have wondered if stagnating wages has meant a growing population that basically can't afford a professional for any purpose. Someone who works for $15 an hour is going to have obvious difficulties hiring someone that asks for $100 an hour.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  > We need to dramatically simplify how much work it takes to do something, or make things last longer, or both. Or lower expectations of quality of life. But I do not buy this: >There's just not enough people to do all the work that needs doing Example #1 of wasting society’s labor resources: the TSA, 65k employees.
  - tuatoru 4y ago
    Example #2: millions of people in prison for minor drug offences, or now out of prison for same, but unable to get this kind of work because of their criminal record.
dylan604 4y ago
A few years ago, the small company (4 people) I was at relocated to a new space that was as-is so we had to do the custom build out for it ourselves. Two of us are hardcore DIY types, so we took on the build ourselves. Part of that required electrical work. We found an electrician that worked with us on the plans and permits, but then allowed us to do the work for the internal wiring to the panel before he ran the mains with the explicit understanding that if there was anything that did not meet specs, he would not connect mains until it was corrected. So we bent conduit, pulled/labeled wires, wired the breaker, then held our breath when he came back for inspection. It was very satisfying when the electrician said it was better work than 90% of his employees. I wish I could find the pics I took of how clean the breaker panel was. The bending of the conduit and measure 3 times cut once was fun and frustrating at the same time, and the decisions on which way to run based on which route needed the least amount of bending was challenging and fun. I definitely have a much deeper appreciation of what electricians go through. It also made it very clear why I did not pursue that kind of construction career path my dad took and did everything he could do to have me not follow those footsteps. To this day, I find myself looking at the conduit work in places and admiring the work more than your normal person
- kencausey 4y ago
  In my opinion, actually caring about the result makes all the difference.
  - dylan604 4y ago
    Right, but it's hard to care to the same level when you're doing the work for your own use vs caring enough to do a job for someone else you may or may not know or like. Caring to do a good job for the sake of doing a good job is so not a common thing any more. Also, having the time to care and do everything to that precision for a single one-off type of job vs doing it every day is a whole other level of discipline.
  - allenrb 4y ago
    I’ve seen lots of cases where I or others can do better work than “the pros”. Some of it is because we’re working for ourselves on our own stuff and care more. But a lot of it is speed. It’s very possible to do a great job if being slow doesn’t mean you and your family get to starve.
seabird 4y ago
There's a lot of talk about apprentice pay being too low and the process taking too long. What a lot of people seem to be missing is that being an apprentice is a young man's game, that journeyman wages being bad or good is highly regional, and that the path to running your own business is fairly direct. It's an entirely different path from the two-step college to white-collar job pipeline most of us probably went through. You work hard pulling horsecock wire or cleaning shit out of sewer systems fresh out of high school to have the option of either pushing far and hard after your journeyman's card to make incredibly good money, or making a wage that ranges from kind-of-bad to kind-of-good wholly depending on where you live. If you had a rough start in life, bad grades, no applicable skills, no money to go to college, no family support, etc. but are willing to show up and get your balls busted for a while while you learn, you could do a hell of a lot worse than the average journeyman's wage, and you stand a chance to make a hell of a lot more.
chadcmulligan 4y ago
Its a pretty awful job, you spend a lot of time crawling through roofs in summer. Most sparkies I know get out of it as soon as they can it plays havoc on your back, its not a job you can do after 40. You can make big money in the mines but there's also an increased risk of physical harm, and you're away from family a lot. Even if you're doing new constructions you have to travel to the new construction area, and that means a lot of driving. (This is in australia but probably the same everywhere).
nemo44x 4y ago
There’s a huge shortage of stairs guys. Line guys that can built and install staircases and run railings, balusters, newels, etc. These guys make a bank too and in terms of comfort, it’s able as comfortable a trade there is. Lots of thinking too. Or window restoration. Lots of money and few guys that do it. In essence there’s good money and a lot of demand in trades that are craftsman like.
- yurishimo 4y ago
  What sort of liability insurance do you think is required for this? Especially if you can become a certified installer for some sort of luxury stair manufacturer (tension cables and floating tread shenanigans) I have no doubt you could make bank assuming the work is consistent. Would definitely be better to own/work with at least one other person however so you don't need to try and find subs constantly if you land a job that needs a little extra manpower. If you don't need the second person, you both can be off working on separate jobs.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    That’s a good question. The type of guy I was referring to here would be all about custom building the entire thing - stringers, risers, treads, tailings, balusters, trim, etc. As far as I know, stairs are generally a custom thing since they have A LOT of code requirements and every space has different dimensions, unless you’re building track housing, etc. There are a good deal of old homes that are worth good money and have owners with the means to replace or repair their old, squeaky stairs. Or renovations going on in old homes that require new stairs. And any new custom hone is going to need custom stairs. No idea on liability insurance but I’d imagine similar to other trades. The stairs guy would only be responsible for gathering the space specs and design. They then build the stairs in their workshop and deliver them to the site. Carpenters install them. Then the stairs guy comes back and installs the railing, etc. which can take a lot of custom work (rail fittings, bending rains, etc) and balusters. Real craft stuff there.
    - defrost 4y ago
      By chance I've been consolidating meta-data on old DIY, Craft, et el. TV series and This Old House Season 11 E15 (Concord Barn, 1989) featured an in depth walk through of just such a specialised custom stair case shop that's still very active. They design and shop build production run and custom stairs, dismantle, ship, and fit or oversee fitting on site. Seems like a good business: Over 50 Years of Custom Staircase Design and Construction https://arcways.com/ https://arcways.com/
dghlsakjg 4y ago
The thing that always gets left out of these pro-trade articles is how brutal it is on your body. It is HARD work Most older tradies I know have a lot of pain and work-related chronic injuries.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  This is very true, I've talked to so many contractors doing work for me who were in their 20s and already had back problems far worse than anything I've yet experienced (and I haven't been 20-anything for decades). To a rough approximation, all of them. I did meet an older plumber, though. I asked him about it and he said his trick was that he only did new construction, no repair. Much easier work. On the occasion he had to do any re-work, his son did it.
- knallfrosch 4y ago
  They also seem to have odd hours more often, regularely work on the side after-hours and on the weekend, and medicate themselves with amounts of caffeine, nicotine and alcohol that would kill horses. That is not to say it's the persons' fault. But if you can tolerate these jobs only like that, it tells you something about the work.
- Tangurena2 4y ago
  Falling off a roof, or off a ladder, can be a "career ending move". I used to be a car mechanic (and electronic technician). That ended when I got run over by a car. I no longer bend too well in the middle - not enough to crawl under a dashboard or car. While I was recovering, my company needed some stuff done that I felt needed to be computerized: one customer was stealing $18k-30k per year because our shipping/receiving system was terribly flawed. Of course it was my fault for pointing that out.
thescriptkiddie 4y ago
Unfortunately most openings for electricians aren't good unionized career positions anymore, they are independent contractor scams with low pay, no benefits, and bad working conditions.
DiscourseFan 4y ago
I'm a little bit put off that this article is essentially suggesting that not only should young men, who are being failed by the educational system, go to trade-school instead (instead of say, fixing the educational system), but that trade-school is also somehow feminist/progressive as well because it challenges gender norms or something. The majority of engineers are still men, and just because an increasing number, soon to be majority, of corporate drones are women doesn't mean we're "progressing as a society" if a relatively small class of professional women manages the working class men and women, while a supreme tech aristocracy made up almost exclusively of men lords over all.
- anoxor 4y ago
  There are men at the top. What is the demographic at the bottom (garbage workers, manual workers, farm labor). Which sex goes to prison more, commits more suicides, dies in war, and loses custody battles the vast majority of the time? Have you heard of the term toxic masculinity, weaponized incompetence, patriarchal, misogyny used? Are women discussed the same way? Are women ever misandrist?
  - DiscourseFan 4y ago
    I'm also skeptical of MRA simply because I do think they are resistant to many feminist arguments that are actually applicable primarily to the working class. I'm in total agreement, I think working class men often suffer a great deal of the blunt of exploitation, but to say that women in similar economic positions don't have their own struggles is also faulty. Anyone who truly wants to change society should recognize that a social movement must involve the concerns of men AND women, white and black, etc. and not be some sort of cheap identity politics that re-enforces the norms of victimhood ideology, and as far as I can tell MRA does fit into that category--but I could be wrong.
yazaddaruvala 4y ago
Should we even need that many electricians these days? Nowadays, most houses should move to use power over Ethernet/USBC for all the lights, cameras, vacuums , toasters(with a small battery), and most of the sockets. That way only big appliances (washer, stove, heater, etc) still need a real electrician to come help with.
- elevaet 4y ago
  New builds, renovations, extensions generally all need electrical work.
- NotYourLawyer 4y ago
  I have never seen an electrical socket that was powered via Ethernet or USB-C.
  - yazaddaruvala 4y ago
    Check out this hotel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4aTcU6Fzoc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4aTcU6Fzoc
- bbradley406 4y ago
  It's code that you must have outlets every so many feet, regardless if 12V / 5V appliances are more efficient. Even then you still need to be familiar with code to run low voltage wiring. Things like - How high outlets and switches must be off the floor - How close to plumbing / ducting wires can be and where you can run them - Which areas need GFCI - How to hammer in a wire staple securely without damaging the insulation (harder than it sounds) - How to divvy up circuits and pick appropriate gauge wire - How to wire n-way switches This stuff is not idiot-proof, even at low voltages. If you get it wrong, your house burns down and insurance won't pay out. In my experience it's better to have a master electrician lay out the circuits and give advice while you do the grunt work of routing and pulling runs. Let them handle the panels, wiring switches, outlets and lights, and listen to their stories (most electricians have some good ones)
- hotpotamus 4y ago
daguava 4y ago
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twothamendment 4y ago
I'm in software, but have built 3 houses and did all my own electrical. If I had to pick a blue collar job (I've done most residential trades) I'd pick electrician. While I was hanging and taping drywall to pay for school I was sure I was on the right track by going to school and getting into software. I couldn't imagine working these jobs when I was older - that was enough to steer me away from any construction.
- ProllyInfamous 4y ago
  I'm a mid-year electrician (IBEW; ran my own shop; seeking alternative career) and HVAC is what I wished I'd done over the past decade.
paulcole 4y ago
In my experience the number of white collar professionals telling young people to work in the trades is at least 10x the number of blue collar professionals telling young people to work in the trades. People just adore telling people to do something they themselves wouldn’t touch with a 10-foot pole. It’s like giving out stock tips without buying the stock yourself. If it’s so obvious that being an electrician is the ticket to a great paying stable job, why’s there a shortage? Maybe it is that (from the article), “the job was too wet, too messy, too cold, too dirty, too hot.” I remember when I graduated college the “shortage” was library science professionals and that ended up going over like a lead balloon. Then it was a nursing shortage and now nobody wants to be a nurse because it’s obvious the job really sucks. Perhaps the most valuable lesson to learn here is that people love giving out advice and that most advice is awful.
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  I agree with that but I have once or twice recommended to some ladies who are stuck in menial jobs that they think about nursing. It seems like a menial job that at least pays decently, but really it seems like an entry level into the medical profession; I work with a (I suppose former) nurse who hasn't touched a patient in decades but helps document and manage medical software that my team develops. I'd imagine drug reps and tons of other weird medical niches open up from there. And NPs/PAs also seem reasonable. At least it's not what others are saying here about how tradespeople are expected to open up their own businesses to advance their careers.
  - paulcole 4y ago
    How have you enjoyed your career as a nurse?
    - hotpotamus 4y ago
      Did you hate your career as a nurse?
      - paulcole 4y ago
1letterunixname 4y ago
My grandfather and dad were both mechanics. I'm jealous of anyone who can leave something built and better at the end of the day, whereas I stare a glowing box pushing electrons around. I'm not jealous of the toll it takes on the body. The mechanical and construction trades are definitely riskier than office work in injuries, both chronic and episodic. What makes good money is specialized workers in high-demand areas. My dad was an electrical and A/C automotive mechanic, and most mechanics hate electrical problems. My consolation prizes are an EE/CS degree and can restore a VW, run plenum wiring, recycle desk IoT lamps into Alexa-controlled wall lamps, and shop for SBCs from global suppliers. There's dignity in whatever is useful and customers are willing to pay for. Title is often narcissistic and résumé pomposity. Usually what pays best is what requires specialized skills, is least sexy, and what most others find excruciatingly painful or impossible to do themselves. I know a guy who has a niche business doing all things related to large flat screen TV installs. That's the kind of ingenuity and market awareness that paves the way for success.
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anikan_vader 4y ago
Oh no if only the free market had a mechanism to correct labor shortages. Anyways…
ljsocal 4y ago
I’m genuinely curious, where in this shortage are the trade unions? The manufacturers of tradesman-installed hardware? The distributor/retailers of same? They all have reason to see that their revenues aren’t limited by too few trained installers.
bolangi 4y ago
I follow the youtube channel of a jet engine mechanic.(*1) If someone wants to learn this profession, his material will take you a long way and supplement if not supplant jet engine maintenance school. You will need on-the-job experience. Better if you're formally trained, but if you're willing to work in subzero winter Canada and start by sweeping the shop floor, you can get in! 1. https://www.youtube.com/@AgentJayZ https://www.youtube.com/@AgentJayZ
trashtester 4y ago
I wonder how much of the shortage of high paying trades people has to do with how women tend to reject men with less education than themselves, and how being a tradesperson affects the dating prospects for a young man these days.....

175 points by cocacola1 4y ago

Isn't it almost impossible to become an apprentice electrician if you don't have family connections to unions? A few comments from this Reddit thread: https://old.reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/104fooe/america_needs_carpenters_and_plumbers_try_telling/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Economics/comments/104fooe/america_... > It’s hard, because the formally decent paying apprentice programs pay has stayed about the same while working, fast food or whatever has gone up a lot. Working at Taco Bell for $18 an hour is less physically demanding than being a grunt laborer for 15. > Our local IBEW apprentices start at $19/hr with another 9.50/hr in benefits. First raise is an extra $2 on the check and another $2 in benefits after 1000 hours or roughly 6 months. > I almost accepted a plumbing apprenticeship when I was 26 but the starting wage was so low I just wouldn’t have been able to live. If I could go back in time though I’d try getting into a trade or automotive work by 18. > I tried becoming an electrician after the military. No where had any interest in taking on an apprentice. > One friend of mine saved and left her corporate job to become an electrician, only to find boomer electricians wouldn’t apprentice a woman. Just one anecdote, of course. > I got out of the Army, and tried to join the local union as an apprentice. It was a 6-8 months selection process before I could even start. It took longer and was more challenging to try and get into a trade then the military. > The trades pay shite. I’m a third term apprentice and it’s hard work for not much more than McDonald’s. Maybe the whole journeyman/apprentice system needs to be dismantled.

denimnerd42 4y ago
Yup.. the system takes forever to advance through. If you don't start at 18 it's hard to justify doing. Regulations need to be changed but I don't see that happening.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
CaliforniaKarl 4y ago
One of the best High Volt electricians we have at work is a woman. She’s an integral part of keeping out data centers working, and we’re actively hiring for an apprentice High Volt electrician!
jandrese 4y ago
The funny thing is the rate charged to customers has skyrocketed in the past decade, yet the wages for the electricians are apparently stagnant?
- vkou 4y ago
  Middlemen and managers are pocketing the difference. When you hear about tradespeople pulling in mid-six figures, they generally aren't in the trenches, laying down pipes or wiring cables.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  Productivity and wages (across the board, not just electricians) diverged around 1980. https://www.epi.org/blog/growing-inequalities-reflecting-growing-employer-power-have-generated-a-productivity-pay-gap-since-1979-productivity-has-grown-3-5-times-as-much-as-pay-for-the-typical-worker/ https://www.epi.org/blog/growing-inequalities-reflecting-gro...
  - JustSomeNobody 4y ago
    It never trickled down. It floated up.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  More central management with large shops/conglomerates/chains, fewer small shops and independents, maybe? You know, "market efficiency".
  - geodel 4y ago
    Yup, leveraging the synergy all the way.
- JustSomeNobody 4y ago
  That's the case with so many things. If a nickel can be squeezed out of the working class and diverted to the wealthy, it surely will.
- 4y ago
bsder 4y ago
California IBEW seems to start an apprentice at $27 and goes up to $54. Seems eminently reasonable?
- GalenErso 4y ago
  $27 in a HCOL state like California in 2023 is ... not great, even for an entry-level position.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    A friend is a journeyman lineman in NorCal and makes ~$300k/year + pension rebuilding PG&E infra. Lives in a lovely rural $800k home. Started his career climbing poles in Illinois, straight out of high school.
    - akavi 4y ago
      Your friend is a massive outlier in the pay distribution of electricians. He's either gaming the overtime system somehow, or has a unique set of specialized skills (or some regulatory arbitrage combo of both).
      - SoftTalker 4y ago
        Have you seen what linemen do? Work with heavy transmission lines dozens or hundreds of feet in the air, at night, in the rain, etc. They earn every penny of whatever they make IMO.
      - toomuchtodo 4y ago
        Based on the state of PG&E infra from public records and committed capex/infra spend, I'm more inclined to believe the overtime is warranted due to This Is All Terrible And Will Take Decades To Fix. I'll ask! Where there is chaos, there is usually money to be made. https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news-release/2022/10/safety-investigation-faults-pges-failure-maintain-aging https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news-release/2022/10/safet... https://theintercept.com/2019/10/11/pge-power-shutdown-california/ https://theintercept.com/2019/10/11/pge-power-shutdown-calif... https://www.naturalgasintel.com/pge-bets-big-on-infrastructure-projects-to-move-utility-into-new-era/ https://www.naturalgasintel.com/pge-bets-big-on-infrastructu... https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/about-pge/environment/what-we-are-doing/electric-program-investment-charge/2021-EPIC-Annual-Report.pdf https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/about-pge/environ...
mcbishop 4y ago
My hack was to offer two months of free work to a local electrician (I was fortunate to be able to do that). He took me up on it, and it worked out. He and I now have an arrangement where I can do my own electrical (solar) projects under his license (with his availability for questions) for a flat per-project fee. ...This pays much better than the hourly rate as an employed apprentice.
rossdavidh 4y ago
Varies a lot by state. I have a friend (was ringbearer at my wedding when he was a wee lad), and he did a lot of research on which state to go through this in (he chose Colorado, btw). The journeyman/apprentice system, for all its problems, is probably a net bonus to the lifetime wages, since it prevents a huge surge of new entrants in a short time. Also, although it may not be all we would want, it does probably prevent the worst safety/incompetence concerns that we would have if it were left to the market (since people hiring electricians often don't have the knowledge to tell if they are competent or not).

denimnerd42 4y ago

The regulatory requirements for electricians and plumbers take so long to advance through that if you don't choose it at a young age it's hardly possible to justify doing later.

vkou 4y ago
If the pay (At the lower/upper/both certification levels) were better, people would justify it.
- mdgrech23 4y ago
  Wife's Dad was a plumber. He made better money running hydraulic fluid to the machines at the GM plant than he did bringing clean water to people and disposing of their waste. This boggles me my mind. Clean drinking water and the ability to safely and sanitarily escort your shit out of your house is so vital yet these guys get paid shit. Capitalisms don't always reward what really matters.
  - jtbayly 4y ago
    Capitalism just says that whoever is willing to pay more has the priority. GM was willing and able to pay more than a single consumer? That’s not a surprise. Their factory couldn’t run without it.
- denimnerd42 4y ago
  The pay will never increase because you need the master to hire you to become a master yourself. So they have so much power. You just have to suck it up when you're young and then capitalize on your master license later. That's one reason it won't easily change. The masters have the power and they are entrenched with it. Will the masters that sit on these state regulatory boards or however it works ever vote to decrease the requirements? No it would have to be a revolution or coup.
  - morkalork 4y ago
    In smaller towns, some masters aren't even interested in taking apprentices because they don't want the future competition.

mdorazio 4y ago

https://archive.is/qKH9C https://archive.is/qKH9C

zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago

My brother went to school for residential and commercial electrician stuff. He quit after a few years because of low pay, long hours, traveling, and unexpected layoffs. I almost forgot the craziest part. The Christmas bonus at his company was funded by all the copper they were able to take from jobs and sell

itsoktocry 4y ago
>He quit after a few years because of low pay, long hours, traveling, and unexpected layoffs In my area of Canada, demand for this work is so high you can work as much or little as you want, independently, for $50+ an hour. Nothing to sneeze at. Just need that entrepreneurial itch.
- briffle 4y ago
  And a license, insurance, transportation, a place to sleep, eat, proably storage for all your stuff that doesn't fit in your vehicle, etc.
- zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago
  This was over 10 years ago in North Dakota.
  - themaninthedark 4y ago
    So what does he do now? I know many white collar workers who also lost their jobs to sudden layoffs a little over 10 years ago...
    - zoklet-enjoyer 4y ago
      He works for a DAO organizing meetings and stuff and does moderating/customer support type stuff for that blockchain
nuancebydefault 4y ago
So workers were incentivised to downgrade 10 euro/meter wire paid by customers into scrap of 40 cents per kg? No respect for customers, no respect for the workers and no respect for the environment.

tennisflyi 4y ago

Look up the median on BLS and tell me if this is all it’s made out to be. Wow. $45k/year…

UncleOxidant 4y ago
But electricians working for themselves must be making a lot more than that? Last time I called an electrician it was $100 for him to step in the door and $150/hr for the work and that was about 10 years ago.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  If they are working for themselves yes. But remember they have to not only pay themselves but pay for their truck, their tools, their fuel and their time to drive out to your house, their accountant or bookkeeper, maybe someone who answers their phone and does their schedule, etc. If they are working for someone else, they need to cover all the overhead of the business.
  - tuatoru 4y ago
    Also time not billable to jobs, and vacation time, and rework (hopefully this is minimal). And insurance - that's a biggie.
- the_only_law 4y ago
  It’s like comparing a software developer with a very successful startup founder who started a software business and saying: “Look programmers can be billionaires” to goad kids into going into software development.
- redavni 4y ago
  If they can pay for the insurance.
- dghlsakjg 4y ago
  The sparkie is also going to show up with $75k worth of equipment and vehicle too. They might be charging that much, but how many hours/day are they charging that much, and what are their costs?

booleandilemma 4y ago

It's just an effect of the market right? Why become an electrician when you can become a programmer (with no license requirements whatsoever) and make double. All while working from home, or in a nice office.

mdgrech23 4y ago
100% this. I've been getting into home improvement and I was wondering what it would be like to do that for a living. Took a look at the wages and noped the f out of that.
- poisonarena 4y ago
  "100% this"
- eldavido 4y ago
  I've noticed this with a lot of professions. Comp is back-loaded. They start much lower than software, but the good ones make it up in the end by being owners and having a crew of 10-20 work for them, and earning margin on their labor. Regulation and professionalization (e.g. you need to be licensed) seem to encourage this. Software, assuming one doesn't go into management, seem to have a more linear comp structure. You start much higher, but it doesn't ramp as dramatically as most trade/licensed professions as you go up. Probably because there's less regulation/capture so even entry-level people keep more of what they produce, vs the almost-feudal nature of many trades/professions. Just what I've seen, anyway.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    > the good ones make it up in the end by being owners and having a crew of 10-20 work for them, and earning margin on their labor. Regulation and professionalization (e.g. you need to be licensed) seem to encourage this. Good luck with this strategy after decades of declining and still to decline fertility rates.

mdorazio 4y ago

My brother is in HVAC, so my perspective on this is biased, but in general there's a blue collar shortage because the job still sucks. First, you have pretty high barriers to entry in the form of apprenticeships and per-state licensing requirements. Then you have the shit hours and shit customers that expect those shit hours. My brother got angry calls from customers because he dared to say no when they wanted him to ditch his daughter's birthday party on a Saturday to go fix their AC immediately. Then you have the actual pay which just isn't that great unless you're an established business owner with a good clientele - as others have pointed out (and the article itself points out), the real pay after you sort through all the outlier stories is pretty low. So, option A is you go to college, immediately get a job with zero hurdles up front, sit behind a desk from 9-5, and collect a solid paycheck. Option B is you go to trade school, then make next to nothing apprenticing for years, then you make somewhere around median income while driving a truck all over the place working in shitty conditions and getting chewed out by people who expect you to be available 24/7.

xattt 4y ago
> First, you have pretty high barriers to entry in the form of apprenticeships and per-state licensing requirements. Your brother’s story can also be applied to the shortage of nurses/allied health staff in Canada.
- Tangurena2 4y ago
  Nursing goes through boom & bust cycles. When wages start creeping up, the media is full of "OMG! Shortage of nurses!" Then as too many youngsters start nursing, the job market gets flooded and nurses quit. In previous decades, nurses quit to make more money elsewhere. After COVID, nurses are just plain burned out. Medical staff got too abused by mismanagers and assaults by anti-vax people, this results in them quitting - no amount of money will keep them.
deleted 4y ago
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aidenn0 4y ago
Everyone I know who does blue collar work echoes what you said. It's pretty broken on the other side of things too, presumably because the work sucks so much and is so variable that they are incentivized to milk every penny from those who appear like they can afford it. As a busy professional homeowner that is well-paid, I would gladly pay 50% more than the current going rate in town to know that a decent, workmanlike job would be done. The quality of the work is completely decoupled from the rates charged though, which kind of makes sense, as there are plenty of people in town who need HVAC/plumbing/electrical &c. work done who can't afford to pay over the going rate. It took me a decade to find a plumber that is honest (luckily they do decent work as well, but honest was hard enough of a bar to reach).

meetingthrower 4y ago

It's a truly amazing market failure. Up here in New England, you can't get an electrician for love or money. And if you do, you are paying $75 an hour for the lowliest apprentice. But you go on Reddit, and the poor schlubs in the rest of the country are making <$20 an hour to start. You can make more at McDonalds. I talked to a friend of mine who runs a big corp electrician unit for a utility. He cannot hire anyone at the rates he wants to pay, and says he cannot pay them market because then he'd "have to reset the comp for his entire 100 man crew." The journeymen coming in are asking for more than supervisor pay (and they should be getting it!) I predict we are in for more inflation as this works its way through the system.

GalenErso 4y ago
This is where YouTube and DIY forums come in. It doesn't require advanced knowledge to perform most electrical repairs and maintenance oneself, and young people's practical skills have atrophied compared to their parents and grandparents at the same age, and I say this as one of those young people.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  Yes I can't really think of any electrical job around the house that I could not do myself. Calling in an electrician to change an outlet is expensive because such trivial work is boring and they don't really want to do it. Sort of like hiring a senior developer to change a heading on a web page. So they charge a lot. They also have to cover the cost of travel to and from the house, even to change a $5 wall outlet.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    I'd probably pay someone to redo the panel. I could definitely do it, but it's tedious and I'd be pulling the meter to get it done anyway, at which point the conversation with the power company will be smoother if a licensed electrician is having it. But everything else is fair game. It's really straightforward. The part I hate the most is fixing the drywall if I have to damage it running some new wire.

Workaccount2 4y ago

Fast track the learning process to catch all the white collars who are on the cusp of being automated out of a job.

deleted 4y ago
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tuatoru 4y ago
I laughed out loud, imagining the enormous spike in musculoskeletal, joint and tendon injuries and disability claims. White collars are cripples.

briffle 4y ago

Every time you see an article about "we cant find enough employees" its like they need to also include a second half of that sentance: "to match our requirements, at the wages we want to pay".

rcarr 4y ago

At this point in my life, I think I would quite happily become a tradie. Would anyone pay me a living wage whilst I was an apprentice? No. Will the government top up my wages so I can survive whilst on the apprenticeship? No. Will the government offer free or subsidised training so I can learn in my spare time whilst working another job? No. Will the government give a bunch of money away to their mates in dodgy covid contracts? Yes. Will they let bankers get away with tanking the entire economy? Yes. Will they do anything and everything they possibly can to support landlords who don't offer anything productive to the economy? Yes. In the words of the Joker, you get what you fucking deserve.

Panzer04 4y ago
The clear best option would be to get rid of the apprenticeship system - test for what they actually care about, greatly shorten the working experience period (engineers have to do 3-6mo on an education). If it was possible to get a sparky license in 3-6 months I’d probably do it!
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  My bet is everyone who's gone through the process of becoming a journeyman or master electrician would fight tooth and nail to keep the apprenticeship system. It's not going away.
- MrBuddyCasino 4y ago
  They tried this here in Germany. The problem is that masters then have no incentive to teach the young, because they will jump ship ASAP, and the general quality level of the whole trade degrades. I think they rolled back some of that.
rootusrootus 4y ago
At this point, I'd happily become a tradie if I could skip the slaving away part and go directly to owning the business. I know someone who did that, and totally illegally. Told his customers he was a licensed electrician but it was actually one of his employees' licenses he was giving. Got away with it while he earned his way into his own license. More risk than my personal tolerance would allow.

retrocryptid 4y ago

Industry: we don't have nearly enough electricians. Electricians: maybe pay us more. I: It's a complete mystery. We can't figure it out. E: pay us more I: Maybe we should try to use AI to figure out how to install wire more efficiently. E: or you could pay us more. I: we should create a billion dollar fund to pay for graduate students to research why we don't have enough electricians. E: or you could pay electricians more. I: SHUT UP, PEASANT!

DrThunder 4y ago
They have unions. Unions are doing a terrible job of negotiating and/or keeping the prices low.
- ProllyInfamous 4y ago
  I'm a former IBEW (Union Electrician) member and I have TONS to say about this: I absolutely agree that unions are not negotiating rates to keep up with inflation. Worse, many jurisdictions are creating new positions that are assistant helpers, with compensation typically a quarter of journeyman rate, NO BENEFITS, and really isn't intended to lead into apprenticeships. This is NOT the CW/CE program, which was already controversially rolled out early 2000's... it is basically a burn-through-help and then don't even give them healthcare. I just cannot imagine how skilled trades are going to be affected when most LUs negotiate 3-year contracts, and the past three years won't be anything like the next three years (i.e. it's only going to get exponentially worse)! Also, I am not yet forty and am looking for another career as a partially disabled dude.
Tangurena2 4y ago
My state requires 6 years of on-the-job employment before you can get a journeyman's license. Or 4 years of employment with an apprenticeship program.

7speter 4y ago

Yawn. The story that starts the article (that tells the same story about the trades that all of these articles tell) takes place in Connecticut, but in NYC, homeowners aren’t allowed to touch anything electrical behind a wall. You have to pay an electrician to do the work. Meanwhile, every year on the news there are people camping out for electrician apprenticeships (theres a shortage in the city as far as I can understand) and most get turned away. Anyways, the funny thing is that if you’re college educated and willing to take things step by step, and buy a good set of tools, and read your local municipalities code (the most recent copy of electrical code in nyc is something like 180 dollars instead of being freely available, dunno if its like that elsewhere), you can probably do your own repairs, arrange a schedule to have anyone who needs to jackhammer and run a connection somewhere on your property, have the electric company run whatevers needed wherever and have an inspector look over the work to either certify it or tell you whats wrong.

Tangurena2 4y ago
The NYC electric code is based on the National Electric Code from a few years earlier. Everywhere else uses the National Electric Code which is like $150. https://www.nyc.gov/site/buildings/codes/electrical-code.page https://www.nyc.gov/site/buildings/codes/electrical-code.pag...
- rovolo 4y ago
  The NEC is also free online (with registration). The NYC amendments are also available starting on page 30 of "Local Law 39 of 2011" linked from the page. > 27-3025 The New York city amendments to the 2008 National Electrical Code. The following New York City amendments to the 2008 National Electrical Code are hereby adopted as set forth in this section. In the event of conflicts between technical provisions, the more restrictive shall apply: 2008 NEC New York City Amendment https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70 https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-stand... https://www.nyc.gov/assets/buildings/pdf/ll39of2011_electrical_code.pdf https://www.nyc.gov/assets/buildings/pdf/ll39of2011_electric...

emptybits 4y ago

Canadian perspective here. The median wage of an electrician in Canada is CAD$30/hr (approx €20/hr or USD$22/hr).[1] Not great. That requires a four to five year apprenticeship and the prospects for electricians in the near future is considered "very limited" in the province I live in (BC), which is among the nicest places to live and also the most expensive.[3] (And pays electricians lower than the national median.) So IMO that hourly wage standard needs to go WAY up before it's considered tempting. Most electricians here work on new projects and there is great reluctance to increase the cost of construction projects (e.g. worker pay) any more than it has already jumped in the last few years. [1] https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/marketreport/wages-occupation/20684/ca https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/marketreport/wages-occupation/2068... [2] https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/outlookreport/occupation/20684 https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/outlookreport/occupation/20684

pcthrowaway 4y ago
I'm inclined to believe the job bank numbers here are incorrect, based on what it lists for software engineers, which seems a bit low: https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/marketreport/wages-occupation/5485/ca https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/marketreport/wages-occupation/5485... Assuming 1880 hours per year (52 weeks * 40 hours - 120 vacation hours - 80 stat day hours), that would imply the median wage in BC is $99414 Levels reports a median pay in Vancouver (where I assume at least 60% of the software engineers in BC are) of $156K, and $130K in Victoria. While Levels may be off, I think real wages are somewhere in the middle.
- dghlsakjg 4y ago
  Tech jobs in BC are notoriously low paid for the cost of living. The Job Bank website pulls from tax filing data so is going to be pretty reflective of real positions. I was clearing $80k CAD as a mid level dev pre-covid, and that was considered on the higher end for a mid level dev. I switched to working for a US company during covid since no one in Vancouver could match the pay.
  - pcthrowaway 4y ago
    > The Job Bank website pulls from tax filing data so is going to be pretty reflective of real positions The data here is completely survey-based, not based on tax filing. The primary source is Statistics Canada's Labour Force Survey. This survey is conducted using a sample of respondents and data may be suppressed for reasons of confidentiality or data quality, but it is the most inclusive, timely and unbiased source of wage data by occupational group. When the Labour Force Survey data is not available, other sources are considered, including: Employment and Social Development Canada program data such as Employment Insurance program survey data The Census Provincial and territorial surveys and administrative data Other organizations administrative data, such as the Canadian Institute for Health Information and the Canadian Medical Association Other sources when applicable First published in November 2022, Small Area Estimations developed by Statistics Canada were added as a new data source.

samtho 4y ago

I apprenticed as an electrician in California briefly as my father was in construction. I decided quickly that I did not like crawling in hot attics, getting bit by black widows, and (worse of all) dealing with customers who think this is a minimum wage job.

knallfrosch 4y ago
The more honest the work, the less the pay

ars 4y ago

The typical answer to this is "pay more". But that just shifts the problem to some other field "not enough plumbers", "not enough something else". There's just not enough people to do all the work that needs doing, and not enough money available to pay all of them. For any individual trade you can "solve it" by paying more - but how do you solve it for all the work that needs doing? We need to dramatically simplify how much work it takes to do something, or make things last longer, or both.

nitwit005 4y ago
I have wondered if stagnating wages has meant a growing population that basically can't afford a professional for any purpose. Someone who works for $15 an hour is going to have obvious difficulties hiring someone that asks for $100 an hour.
lotsofpulp 4y ago
> We need to dramatically simplify how much work it takes to do something, or make things last longer, or both. Or lower expectations of quality of life. But I do not buy this: >There's just not enough people to do all the work that needs doing Example #1 of wasting society’s labor resources: the TSA, 65k employees.
- tuatoru 4y ago
  Example #2: millions of people in prison for minor drug offences, or now out of prison for same, but unable to get this kind of work because of their criminal record.

dylan604 4y ago

A few years ago, the small company (4 people) I was at relocated to a new space that was as-is so we had to do the custom build out for it ourselves. Two of us are hardcore DIY types, so we took on the build ourselves. Part of that required electrical work. We found an electrician that worked with us on the plans and permits, but then allowed us to do the work for the internal wiring to the panel before he ran the mains with the explicit understanding that if there was anything that did not meet specs, he would not connect mains until it was corrected. So we bent conduit, pulled/labeled wires, wired the breaker, then held our breath when he came back for inspection. It was very satisfying when the electrician said it was better work than 90% of his employees. I wish I could find the pics I took of how clean the breaker panel was. The bending of the conduit and measure 3 times cut once was fun and frustrating at the same time, and the decisions on which way to run based on which route needed the least amount of bending was challenging and fun. I definitely have a much deeper appreciation of what electricians go through. It also made it very clear why I did not pursue that kind of construction career path my dad took and did everything he could do to have me not follow those footsteps. To this day, I find myself looking at the conduit work in places and admiring the work more than your normal person

kencausey 4y ago
In my opinion, actually caring about the result makes all the difference.
- dylan604 4y ago
  Right, but it's hard to care to the same level when you're doing the work for your own use vs caring enough to do a job for someone else you may or may not know or like. Caring to do a good job for the sake of doing a good job is so not a common thing any more. Also, having the time to care and do everything to that precision for a single one-off type of job vs doing it every day is a whole other level of discipline.
- allenrb 4y ago
  I’ve seen lots of cases where I or others can do better work than “the pros”. Some of it is because we’re working for ourselves on our own stuff and care more. But a lot of it is speed. It’s very possible to do a great job if being slow doesn’t mean you and your family get to starve.

seabird 4y ago

There's a lot of talk about apprentice pay being too low and the process taking too long. What a lot of people seem to be missing is that being an apprentice is a young man's game, that journeyman wages being bad or good is highly regional, and that the path to running your own business is fairly direct. It's an entirely different path from the two-step college to white-collar job pipeline most of us probably went through. You work hard pulling horsecock wire or cleaning shit out of sewer systems fresh out of high school to have the option of either pushing far and hard after your journeyman's card to make incredibly good money, or making a wage that ranges from kind-of-bad to kind-of-good wholly depending on where you live. If you had a rough start in life, bad grades, no applicable skills, no money to go to college, no family support, etc. but are willing to show up and get your balls busted for a while while you learn, you could do a hell of a lot worse than the average journeyman's wage, and you stand a chance to make a hell of a lot more.

chadcmulligan 4y ago

Its a pretty awful job, you spend a lot of time crawling through roofs in summer. Most sparkies I know get out of it as soon as they can it plays havoc on your back, its not a job you can do after 40. You can make big money in the mines but there's also an increased risk of physical harm, and you're away from family a lot. Even if you're doing new constructions you have to travel to the new construction area, and that means a lot of driving. (This is in australia but probably the same everywhere).

nemo44x 4y ago

There’s a huge shortage of stairs guys. Line guys that can built and install staircases and run railings, balusters, newels, etc. These guys make a bank too and in terms of comfort, it’s able as comfortable a trade there is. Lots of thinking too. Or window restoration. Lots of money and few guys that do it. In essence there’s good money and a lot of demand in trades that are craftsman like.

yurishimo 4y ago
What sort of liability insurance do you think is required for this? Especially if you can become a certified installer for some sort of luxury stair manufacturer (tension cables and floating tread shenanigans) I have no doubt you could make bank assuming the work is consistent. Would definitely be better to own/work with at least one other person however so you don't need to try and find subs constantly if you land a job that needs a little extra manpower. If you don't need the second person, you both can be off working on separate jobs.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  That’s a good question. The type of guy I was referring to here would be all about custom building the entire thing - stringers, risers, treads, tailings, balusters, trim, etc. As far as I know, stairs are generally a custom thing since they have A LOT of code requirements and every space has different dimensions, unless you’re building track housing, etc. There are a good deal of old homes that are worth good money and have owners with the means to replace or repair their old, squeaky stairs. Or renovations going on in old homes that require new stairs. And any new custom hone is going to need custom stairs. No idea on liability insurance but I’d imagine similar to other trades. The stairs guy would only be responsible for gathering the space specs and design. They then build the stairs in their workshop and deliver them to the site. Carpenters install them. Then the stairs guy comes back and installs the railing, etc. which can take a lot of custom work (rail fittings, bending rains, etc) and balusters. Real craft stuff there.
  - defrost 4y ago
    By chance I've been consolidating meta-data on old DIY, Craft, et el. TV series and This Old House Season 11 E15 (Concord Barn, 1989) featured an in depth walk through of just such a specialised custom stair case shop that's still very active. They design and shop build production run and custom stairs, dismantle, ship, and fit or oversee fitting on site. Seems like a good business: Over 50 Years of Custom Staircase Design and Construction https://arcways.com/ https://arcways.com/

dghlsakjg 4y ago

The thing that always gets left out of these pro-trade articles is how brutal it is on your body. It is HARD work Most older tradies I know have a lot of pain and work-related chronic injuries.

rootusrootus 4y ago
This is very true, I've talked to so many contractors doing work for me who were in their 20s and already had back problems far worse than anything I've yet experienced (and I haven't been 20-anything for decades). To a rough approximation, all of them. I did meet an older plumber, though. I asked him about it and he said his trick was that he only did new construction, no repair. Much easier work. On the occasion he had to do any re-work, his son did it.
knallfrosch 4y ago
They also seem to have odd hours more often, regularely work on the side after-hours and on the weekend, and medicate themselves with amounts of caffeine, nicotine and alcohol that would kill horses. That is not to say it's the persons' fault. But if you can tolerate these jobs only like that, it tells you something about the work.
Tangurena2 4y ago
Falling off a roof, or off a ladder, can be a "career ending move". I used to be a car mechanic (and electronic technician). That ended when I got run over by a car. I no longer bend too well in the middle - not enough to crawl under a dashboard or car. While I was recovering, my company needed some stuff done that I felt needed to be computerized: one customer was stealing $18k-30k per year because our shipping/receiving system was terribly flawed. Of course it was my fault for pointing that out.

thescriptkiddie 4y ago

Unfortunately most openings for electricians aren't good unionized career positions anymore, they are independent contractor scams with low pay, no benefits, and bad working conditions.

DiscourseFan 4y ago

I'm a little bit put off that this article is essentially suggesting that not only should young men, who are being failed by the educational system, go to trade-school instead (instead of say, fixing the educational system), but that trade-school is also somehow feminist/progressive as well because it challenges gender norms or something. The majority of engineers are still men, and just because an increasing number, soon to be majority, of corporate drones are women doesn't mean we're "progressing as a society" if a relatively small class of professional women manages the working class men and women, while a supreme tech aristocracy made up almost exclusively of men lords over all.

anoxor 4y ago
There are men at the top. What is the demographic at the bottom (garbage workers, manual workers, farm labor). Which sex goes to prison more, commits more suicides, dies in war, and loses custody battles the vast majority of the time? Have you heard of the term toxic masculinity, weaponized incompetence, patriarchal, misogyny used? Are women discussed the same way? Are women ever misandrist?
- DiscourseFan 4y ago
  I'm also skeptical of MRA simply because I do think they are resistant to many feminist arguments that are actually applicable primarily to the working class. I'm in total agreement, I think working class men often suffer a great deal of the blunt of exploitation, but to say that women in similar economic positions don't have their own struggles is also faulty. Anyone who truly wants to change society should recognize that a social movement must involve the concerns of men AND women, white and black, etc. and not be some sort of cheap identity politics that re-enforces the norms of victimhood ideology, and as far as I can tell MRA does fit into that category--but I could be wrong.

yazaddaruvala 4y ago

Should we even need that many electricians these days? Nowadays, most houses should move to use power over Ethernet/USBC for all the lights, cameras, vacuums , toasters(with a small battery), and most of the sockets. That way only big appliances (washer, stove, heater, etc) still need a real electrician to come help with.

elevaet 4y ago
New builds, renovations, extensions generally all need electrical work.
NotYourLawyer 4y ago
I have never seen an electrical socket that was powered via Ethernet or USB-C.
- yazaddaruvala 4y ago
  Check out this hotel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4aTcU6Fzoc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4aTcU6Fzoc
bbradley406 4y ago
It's code that you must have outlets every so many feet, regardless if 12V / 5V appliances are more efficient. Even then you still need to be familiar with code to run low voltage wiring. Things like - How high outlets and switches must be off the floor - How close to plumbing / ducting wires can be and where you can run them - Which areas need GFCI - How to hammer in a wire staple securely without damaging the insulation (harder than it sounds) - How to divvy up circuits and pick appropriate gauge wire - How to wire n-way switches This stuff is not idiot-proof, even at low voltages. If you get it wrong, your house burns down and insurance won't pay out. In my experience it's better to have a master electrician lay out the circuits and give advice while you do the grunt work of routing and pulling runs. Let them handle the panels, wiring switches, outlets and lights, and listen to their stories (most electricians have some good ones)
hotpotamus 4y ago

daguava 4y ago

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twothamendment 4y ago

I'm in software, but have built 3 houses and did all my own electrical. If I had to pick a blue collar job (I've done most residential trades) I'd pick electrician. While I was hanging and taping drywall to pay for school I was sure I was on the right track by going to school and getting into software. I couldn't imagine working these jobs when I was older - that was enough to steer me away from any construction.

ProllyInfamous 4y ago
I'm a mid-year electrician (IBEW; ran my own shop; seeking alternative career) and HVAC is what I wished I'd done over the past decade.

paulcole 4y ago

In my experience the number of white collar professionals telling young people to work in the trades is at least 10x the number of blue collar professionals telling young people to work in the trades. People just adore telling people to do something they themselves wouldn’t touch with a 10-foot pole. It’s like giving out stock tips without buying the stock yourself. If it’s so obvious that being an electrician is the ticket to a great paying stable job, why’s there a shortage? Maybe it is that (from the article), “the job was too wet, too messy, too cold, too dirty, too hot.” I remember when I graduated college the “shortage” was library science professionals and that ended up going over like a lead balloon. Then it was a nursing shortage and now nobody wants to be a nurse because it’s obvious the job really sucks. Perhaps the most valuable lesson to learn here is that people love giving out advice and that most advice is awful.

hotpotamus 4y ago
I agree with that but I have once or twice recommended to some ladies who are stuck in menial jobs that they think about nursing. It seems like a menial job that at least pays decently, but really it seems like an entry level into the medical profession; I work with a (I suppose former) nurse who hasn't touched a patient in decades but helps document and manage medical software that my team develops. I'd imagine drug reps and tons of other weird medical niches open up from there. And NPs/PAs also seem reasonable. At least it's not what others are saying here about how tradespeople are expected to open up their own businesses to advance their careers.
- paulcole 4y ago
  How have you enjoyed your career as a nurse?
  - hotpotamus 4y ago
    Did you hate your career as a nurse?
    - paulcole 4y ago

1letterunixname 4y ago

My grandfather and dad were both mechanics. I'm jealous of anyone who can leave something built and better at the end of the day, whereas I stare a glowing box pushing electrons around. I'm not jealous of the toll it takes on the body. The mechanical and construction trades are definitely riskier than office work in injuries, both chronic and episodic. What makes good money is specialized workers in high-demand areas. My dad was an electrical and A/C automotive mechanic, and most mechanics hate electrical problems. My consolation prizes are an EE/CS degree and can restore a VW, run plenum wiring, recycle desk IoT lamps into Alexa-controlled wall lamps, and shop for SBCs from global suppliers. There's dignity in whatever is useful and customers are willing to pay for. Title is often narcissistic and résumé pomposity. Usually what pays best is what requires specialized skills, is least sexy, and what most others find excruciatingly painful or impossible to do themselves. I know a guy who has a niche business doing all things related to large flat screen TV installs. That's the kind of ingenuity and market awareness that paves the way for success.

deleted 4y ago

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anikan_vader 4y ago

Oh no if only the free market had a mechanism to correct labor shortages. Anyways…

ljsocal 4y ago

I’m genuinely curious, where in this shortage are the trade unions? The manufacturers of tradesman-installed hardware? The distributor/retailers of same? They all have reason to see that their revenues aren’t limited by too few trained installers.

bolangi 4y ago

I follow the youtube channel of a jet engine mechanic.(*1) If someone wants to learn this profession, his material will take you a long way and supplement if not supplant jet engine maintenance school. You will need on-the-job experience. Better if you're formally trained, but if you're willing to work in subzero winter Canada and start by sweeping the shop floor, you can get in! 1. https://www.youtube.com/@AgentJayZ https://www.youtube.com/@AgentJayZ

trashtester 4y ago

I wonder how much of the shortage of high paying trades people has to do with how women tend to reject men with less education than themselves, and how being a tradesperson affects the dating prospects for a young man these days.....