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> - Cut expensive (old) employees. Anyone have tips to avoid this? I keep getting promotions and raises and it's all very nice but makes me worried about bein

> - Cut expensive (old) employees. Anyone have tips to avoid this? I keep getting promotions and raises and it's all very nice but makes me worried about being closer to the top of the list when the next round of cuts needs to happen... Just this year I got an unsolicited bump because I was "below market avg TCO." You can't just say "no thanks" to that.

jrockway 4y ago
Live frugally and fully fund your 401k.
- phkahler 4y ago
  Make it a Roth 401k so when unusual things like housing collapse you can pull your principal back out to make a purchase without penalty. Assuming the stock market didn't crash simultaneously.
  - javanissen 4y ago
    That is the rule with a Roth IRA - pull out up to your contribution value without penalty. Early withdrawals from a Roth 401(k) are different: if your account is 80% contributions and 20% earnings, any early withdrawal you make will be prorated to be 80% contributions and 20% earnings. The earnings chunk will be added to your gross income and subject to a 10% penalty (in this case, 2% of the overall withdrawal). Given that most people here are high-ish earners, I’d say a traditional 401(k) is still the most appropriate choice because of the tax arbitrage. If you need to tap it, a 401(k) loan is an imperfect but probably decent enough choice.
    - jrockway 4y ago
      I'd say either way, keep your retirement savings and home buying savings separate. Sure, it will be nice to own a home when you're retired. But you're still on the hook for property taxes, repairs, and food.
riffic 4y ago
jump ship
acapybara 4y ago
Make as much as you can and bank the extra. The only real security you have is your own assets and financial discipline.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  This! FIRE as fast as you can so you’re not at the whim of this class of people (management class, broadly speaking). There is no security, no one is coming to save you except you. I speak from experience.
  - rwmj 4y ago
    Rates of pay are so high in tech that I wonder if there will come a crisis when many people take early retirement. (Obviously I'm not saying this is a bad thing)
    - aeyes 4y ago
      The amount of new grads and people coming in from other trades because they want a piece of the cake is high enough to keep supporting the flywheel. It would be interesting to see median age of engineers at tech companies, here it's definitely well under 35.
    - away271828 4y ago
      Anecdotally, I see some people in their 40s or early 50s who made very serious money and worked really hard (founders, CEOs, and the like) end up doing some of the on-the-side type of work that gets thrown at people in that position (boards, "advisors," and the like). But I don't actually see a huge number of late career regular employees (even fairly well-compensated ones) retiring way early.
  - htag 4y ago
    FIRE is obviously nice. I do think "bank the extra" is significantly more attainable, while providing a lot of extra security. 1. He doesn't have to change his spending habits at all. He just needs to direct the extra income into a saving account, maybe check on it one a month/quarter/year and move it someplace like CDs, Bonds, or ETFs. 2. His goal is to continue to work. Having a healthy savings account can keep you secure while looking for another job.
SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
Frankly, companies who cut you for being older are not companies that are worth putting your faith into because they don’t respect your historical, institutional knowledge. Also if you’re getting unsolicited bumps from your employer you should be more concerned you’re underselling vs overselling yourself
- CoastalCoder 4y ago
  The only software-developing organization I know of that truly values institutional knowledge is the U.S. Dept. of Defense. Civil-service rules make it very difficult to fire most employees anyway, but that dovetails nicely with an appreciation for institutional knowledge.
oofta-boofta 4y ago
Work multiple jobs that you do the bare minimum at. Always be interviewing, Q1->Q3 is the best time.
- candiddevmike 4y ago
  Before the recession, it was a well-known secret among coworkers who was doing this, now when budgets are being slashed these folks are the first to be let go. Please don't do this, you're ruining remote work for everyone. If you really want to, become a contractor and be honest about your situation.
  - speeder 4y ago
    I was fired from my last job partially because a lot of people were doing this and the company decided to make my job be 100% in Office in response. Since the office of my job was literally on the other side of the planet and people there spoke the local language (one I don't know), I got fired.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - ghaff 4y ago
    I assume people who are sufficiently self-centered that they've convinced themselves that this is fine because it obviously is if you can get away with it are incredibly selfish and not nearly as clever as they think they are in many other ways as well. Personally if I were aware, I'd report them because I don't want to be either complicit or a liar if it comes out and I'm asked.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - oofta-boofta 4y ago
      I can't wait until you get laid-off/fired unjustly. I had this same attitude until I got laid off even though I was a high-performer (4/5 and 5/5 on all my bi-yearly reviews). Now, I'm in it for me and only me. Fuck these companies, they don't care about you so why should I care? I perform to the expectations of my job description but forget going above and beyond.
mathattack 4y ago
Keep in contact with everyone who thinks highly of your work. A strong recommendation (“you must hire person X, they’re perfect”) is the best defense against age discrimination. You can’t help it if your employer moves your job to India. You can lay the ground to make the transition faster.
pcurve 4y ago
At least where I used to work, older engineers were kept on payroll by working only 3-4 days a week. Some of them also got lower title. I'd imagine the title 'adjustment' happened when there was a round of layoffs and some were offered to stay on conditionally.
iLoveOncall 4y ago
Don't worry, it's not true. All studies show that the employees that stay the longest are the least paid. If they had to replace you with a new hire at the same level, they would have to pay the new hire a lot more than they pay you.
reaperducer 4y ago
Anyone have tips to avoid this? I keep getting promotions and raises and it's all very nice but makes me worried about being closer to the top of the list when the next round of cuts needs to happen Make your self invisibly essential to the company. Do things or have skills that nobody else does. The sorts of niche items that the company needs, but not enough to hire a second person to do them. But also be "invisible" — as in, higher-up bean counters won't know you do them, so they can't be outsourced or reassigned. But still remain known to your immediate managers, and one level above, that you're the person who takes care of some mission-critical task, and so will ensure you don't get cut. It's hard to find that thing, and not every company has this particular weakness. Volunteering to help out with projects in other departments is one way to explore the company for these flaws. As a broad illustration, think about all of the thousands and thousands of employees that financial services companies have shed over the last decade. Then remember that they're still eagerly hiring COBOL devs.
- peruvian 4y ago
  Eh, good advice but I have seen "essential" people or teams get laid off, even at the detriment of the company. Management and C-suite don't care - they face no consequences. I echo the other comment saying just save up as much money.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
scarface74 4y ago
> Anyone have tips to avoid this Never depend on your job for your livelihood. Depend on your network. Make sure your skills are in sync with the wider market. Keep your resume up to date and your “career document”. Always be interview ready. Of course, save and invest money and live in a position of f%%% you. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xdfeXqHFmPI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xdfeXqHFmPI
whitemary 4y ago
Unionize.
- garbagecoder 4y ago
  This is the best answer ITT. Union-busting tech people is easy though since they appeals to them as uniquely intelligent people who gain nothing from the support of others works most of the time.
  - clambirty 4y ago
    Yeah there's a general anti-union sentiment in tech, but I think this is slowly changing as companies continue to screw over tech workers, and we as tech workers start to realize that we actually aren't safe from the fall out of incompetent executives. How many companies this year started layoffs with recruiters, HR, and admin staff and are now turning to laying off software engineers?
    - garbagecoder 4y ago
      Yes, I think you're right and Gen-Z in general seems more open to it. I've worked several union and/or government jobs. Yes, it sucks that you end up carrying some of your co-workers. But knowing that your family isn't going to starve because your new manager doesn't like your outfit is nice.
namelessoracle 4y ago
Whats weird is that I've heard the opposite too. That being an old employee is a suckers game for taking the 2 to 4 percent each year. For instance the staff level who was with the company from junior and climbed the ranks is probably making alot less than the staff who came in as a staff, because climbing the ranks means you get percentage based increases or reset to the floor for the rank, and the staff who came in could negotiate higher than that. (You cant really negotiate comp for a promotion, its take it or leave it). Even though the junior to staff probably has more institutional knowledge, domain knowledge and political connections to get stuff done in the company.
- scarface74 4y ago
  “Salary Compression and Inversion”
- therealdrag0 4y ago
  Otoh: I’ve seen new-staff bring more maturity and diverse experience and broader knowledge of patterns and practices than the junior-to-staff, so the value prop may not be as clear cut as it seems. But of course the principle is true that if you hanging around make sure you get real market adjustment raises. Some companies/managers are better about this than others.
  - namelessoracle 4y ago
    Sure, there's also the point that while the junior to staff has connections, they might have also earned enemies too which will seek to impede stuff they want done. Where as the new staff has a fresh slate with everyone. Generally speaking though, people i've seen promoted to Staff are more effective at the role than people who come in at the role, because Staff seems heavily weighted towards being able to influence at most companies. And being a known quantity counts for a lot. (also to become a staff someone higher in the food chain had to have already vouched for you and be willing to grant you some degree of patronage) Also the value prop for what you are saying of "new pattern or practice" only applies if the staff gets to do green field dev, its rare a brand new staff without political capital can force a pivot on an already in development product that has patterns already set. In short its rare it gets to manifest, and when it does get to manifest it can take a year or 2 to manifest, and people who are willing to jump into staff roles probably have their next spot picked up for their next salary hike already picked out ;)
mindcrime 4y ago
Anyone have tips to avoid this? Avoid? No. It probably can't be avoided in the long-run. But you can mitigate the effects. A great take on this can be mined from this little rant by John Goodman's character in The Gambler: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJjKP8vYjpQ&pp=ygUTZ2FtYmxlciBwb3NpdGlvbiBvZg%3D%3D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJjKP8vYjpQ&pp=ygUTZ2FtYmxlc...
noelsusman 4y ago
My plan is to save enough money to at least quasi-retire in my 50s.
- susumukodai 4y ago
  My plan is to make sure my last job is in a southern state, so when I'm living in a cardboard box on a street corner it's at least warm...
matwood 4y ago
> I keep getting promotions and raises and it's all very nice but makes me worried about being closer to the top of the list when the next round of cuts needs to happen Don't think this way. Get all the promotions and pay raises you can. Unless you're way out of line salary wise, most layoffs are somewhat random. From the big companies standpoint who sees layoffs saving millions+, no one cares about another 50k-100k. And in semi-random times, it may help you because higher ups who have no idea who you are see title and salary as likely to know more and be able to keep things running with fewer people.

jrockway 4y ago

Live frugally and fully fund your 401k.

phkahler 4y ago
Make it a Roth 401k so when unusual things like housing collapse you can pull your principal back out to make a purchase without penalty. Assuming the stock market didn't crash simultaneously.
- javanissen 4y ago
  That is the rule with a Roth IRA - pull out up to your contribution value without penalty. Early withdrawals from a Roth 401(k) are different: if your account is 80% contributions and 20% earnings, any early withdrawal you make will be prorated to be 80% contributions and 20% earnings. The earnings chunk will be added to your gross income and subject to a 10% penalty (in this case, 2% of the overall withdrawal). Given that most people here are high-ish earners, I’d say a traditional 401(k) is still the most appropriate choice because of the tax arbitrage. If you need to tap it, a 401(k) loan is an imperfect but probably decent enough choice.
  - jrockway 4y ago
    I'd say either way, keep your retirement savings and home buying savings separate. Sure, it will be nice to own a home when you're retired. But you're still on the hook for property taxes, repairs, and food.

riffic 4y ago

jump ship

acapybara 4y ago

Make as much as you can and bank the extra. The only real security you have is your own assets and financial discipline.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
This! FIRE as fast as you can so you’re not at the whim of this class of people (management class, broadly speaking). There is no security, no one is coming to save you except you. I speak from experience.
- rwmj 4y ago
  Rates of pay are so high in tech that I wonder if there will come a crisis when many people take early retirement. (Obviously I'm not saying this is a bad thing)
  - aeyes 4y ago
    The amount of new grads and people coming in from other trades because they want a piece of the cake is high enough to keep supporting the flywheel. It would be interesting to see median age of engineers at tech companies, here it's definitely well under 35.
  - away271828 4y ago
    Anecdotally, I see some people in their 40s or early 50s who made very serious money and worked really hard (founders, CEOs, and the like) end up doing some of the on-the-side type of work that gets thrown at people in that position (boards, "advisors," and the like). But I don't actually see a huge number of late career regular employees (even fairly well-compensated ones) retiring way early.
- htag 4y ago
  FIRE is obviously nice. I do think "bank the extra" is significantly more attainable, while providing a lot of extra security. 1. He doesn't have to change his spending habits at all. He just needs to direct the extra income into a saving account, maybe check on it one a month/quarter/year and move it someplace like CDs, Bonds, or ETFs. 2. His goal is to continue to work. Having a healthy savings account can keep you secure while looking for another job.

SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago

Frankly, companies who cut you for being older are not companies that are worth putting your faith into because they don’t respect your historical, institutional knowledge. Also if you’re getting unsolicited bumps from your employer you should be more concerned you’re underselling vs overselling yourself

CoastalCoder 4y ago
The only software-developing organization I know of that truly values institutional knowledge is the U.S. Dept. of Defense. Civil-service rules make it very difficult to fire most employees anyway, but that dovetails nicely with an appreciation for institutional knowledge.

oofta-boofta 4y ago

Work multiple jobs that you do the bare minimum at. Always be interviewing, Q1->Q3 is the best time.

candiddevmike 4y ago
Before the recession, it was a well-known secret among coworkers who was doing this, now when budgets are being slashed these folks are the first to be let go. Please don't do this, you're ruining remote work for everyone. If you really want to, become a contractor and be honest about your situation.
- speeder 4y ago
  I was fired from my last job partially because a lot of people were doing this and the company decided to make my job be 100% in Office in response. Since the office of my job was literally on the other side of the planet and people there spoke the local language (one I don't know), I got fired.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ghaff 4y ago
  I assume people who are sufficiently self-centered that they've convinced themselves that this is fine because it obviously is if you can get away with it are incredibly selfish and not nearly as clever as they think they are in many other ways as well. Personally if I were aware, I'd report them because I don't want to be either complicit or a liar if it comes out and I'm asked.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - oofta-boofta 4y ago
    I can't wait until you get laid-off/fired unjustly. I had this same attitude until I got laid off even though I was a high-performer (4/5 and 5/5 on all my bi-yearly reviews). Now, I'm in it for me and only me. Fuck these companies, they don't care about you so why should I care? I perform to the expectations of my job description but forget going above and beyond.

mathattack 4y ago

Keep in contact with everyone who thinks highly of your work. A strong recommendation (“you must hire person X, they’re perfect”) is the best defense against age discrimination. You can’t help it if your employer moves your job to India. You can lay the ground to make the transition faster.

pcurve 4y ago

At least where I used to work, older engineers were kept on payroll by working only 3-4 days a week. Some of them also got lower title. I'd imagine the title 'adjustment' happened when there was a round of layoffs and some were offered to stay on conditionally.

iLoveOncall 4y ago

Don't worry, it's not true. All studies show that the employees that stay the longest are the least paid. If they had to replace you with a new hire at the same level, they would have to pay the new hire a lot more than they pay you.

reaperducer 4y ago

Anyone have tips to avoid this? I keep getting promotions and raises and it's all very nice but makes me worried about being closer to the top of the list when the next round of cuts needs to happen Make your self invisibly essential to the company. Do things or have skills that nobody else does. The sorts of niche items that the company needs, but not enough to hire a second person to do them. But also be "invisible" — as in, higher-up bean counters won't know you do them, so they can't be outsourced or reassigned. But still remain known to your immediate managers, and one level above, that you're the person who takes care of some mission-critical task, and so will ensure you don't get cut. It's hard to find that thing, and not every company has this particular weakness. Volunteering to help out with projects in other departments is one way to explore the company for these flaws. As a broad illustration, think about all of the thousands and thousands of employees that financial services companies have shed over the last decade. Then remember that they're still eagerly hiring COBOL devs.

peruvian 4y ago
Eh, good advice but I have seen "essential" people or teams get laid off, even at the detriment of the company. Management and C-suite don't care - they face no consequences. I echo the other comment saying just save up as much money.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

scarface74 4y ago

> Anyone have tips to avoid this Never depend on your job for your livelihood. Depend on your network. Make sure your skills are in sync with the wider market. Keep your resume up to date and your “career document”. Always be interview ready. Of course, save and invest money and live in a position of f%%% you. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xdfeXqHFmPI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xdfeXqHFmPI

whitemary 4y ago

Unionize.

garbagecoder 4y ago
This is the best answer ITT. Union-busting tech people is easy though since they appeals to them as uniquely intelligent people who gain nothing from the support of others works most of the time.
- clambirty 4y ago
  Yeah there's a general anti-union sentiment in tech, but I think this is slowly changing as companies continue to screw over tech workers, and we as tech workers start to realize that we actually aren't safe from the fall out of incompetent executives. How many companies this year started layoffs with recruiters, HR, and admin staff and are now turning to laying off software engineers?
  - garbagecoder 4y ago
    Yes, I think you're right and Gen-Z in general seems more open to it. I've worked several union and/or government jobs. Yes, it sucks that you end up carrying some of your co-workers. But knowing that your family isn't going to starve because your new manager doesn't like your outfit is nice.

namelessoracle 4y ago

Whats weird is that I've heard the opposite too. That being an old employee is a suckers game for taking the 2 to 4 percent each year. For instance the staff level who was with the company from junior and climbed the ranks is probably making alot less than the staff who came in as a staff, because climbing the ranks means you get percentage based increases or reset to the floor for the rank, and the staff who came in could negotiate higher than that. (You cant really negotiate comp for a promotion, its take it or leave it). Even though the junior to staff probably has more institutional knowledge, domain knowledge and political connections to get stuff done in the company.

scarface74 4y ago
“Salary Compression and Inversion”
therealdrag0 4y ago
Otoh: I’ve seen new-staff bring more maturity and diverse experience and broader knowledge of patterns and practices than the junior-to-staff, so the value prop may not be as clear cut as it seems. But of course the principle is true that if you hanging around make sure you get real market adjustment raises. Some companies/managers are better about this than others.
- namelessoracle 4y ago
  Sure, there's also the point that while the junior to staff has connections, they might have also earned enemies too which will seek to impede stuff they want done. Where as the new staff has a fresh slate with everyone. Generally speaking though, people i've seen promoted to Staff are more effective at the role than people who come in at the role, because Staff seems heavily weighted towards being able to influence at most companies. And being a known quantity counts for a lot. (also to become a staff someone higher in the food chain had to have already vouched for you and be willing to grant you some degree of patronage) Also the value prop for what you are saying of "new pattern or practice" only applies if the staff gets to do green field dev, its rare a brand new staff without political capital can force a pivot on an already in development product that has patterns already set. In short its rare it gets to manifest, and when it does get to manifest it can take a year or 2 to manifest, and people who are willing to jump into staff roles probably have their next spot picked up for their next salary hike already picked out ;)

mindcrime 4y ago

Anyone have tips to avoid this? Avoid? No. It probably can't be avoided in the long-run. But you can mitigate the effects. A great take on this can be mined from this little rant by John Goodman's character in The Gambler: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJjKP8vYjpQ&pp=ygUTZ2FtYmxlciBwb3NpdGlvbiBvZg%3D%3D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJjKP8vYjpQ&pp=ygUTZ2FtYmxlc...

noelsusman 4y ago

My plan is to save enough money to at least quasi-retire in my 50s.

susumukodai 4y ago
My plan is to make sure my last job is in a southern state, so when I'm living in a cardboard box on a street corner it's at least warm...

matwood 4y ago

> I keep getting promotions and raises and it's all very nice but makes me worried about being closer to the top of the list when the next round of cuts needs to happen Don't think this way. Get all the promotions and pay raises you can. Unless you're way out of line salary wise, most layoffs are somewhat random. From the big companies standpoint who sees layoffs saving millions+, no one cares about another 50k-100k. And in semi-random times, it may help you because higher ups who have no idea who you are see title and salary as likely to know more and be able to keep things running with fewer people.