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> I asked people for feedback. I found that if I just asked “do you have any feedback for me?” people often wouldn’t, but if I asked more granular questions—“wa

> I asked people for feedback. I found that if I just asked “do you have any feedback for me?” people often wouldn’t, but if I asked more granular questions—“was that meeting useful?”—I would usually learn a lot from it. This part is good. I think generally as engineers, a manager simply asking "do you have feedback for me" just feels like a trap. I don't know man, there's plenty of things you do that annoy me but like.. can we be more specific here? The other side to this is - don't ask for feedback if you don't plan to action any of it. I worked for a guy who must have read a book that told him to ask for feedback, but he was so rigid that he would vehemently defend against any feedback he was given. Not like personal stuff either, but structure/length/schedule of meetings, standups, etc. The "strong ideas loosely held" type guys need to be careful when they become management, because while it may work with peers (if they also love arguing), it doesn't work with a power imbalance. All your "strong ideas" will become "permanently held", congrats.

KarlTheCool 4y ago
I feel this response. If voicing your opinion is a risk that needs calculating, it's not worth trying. It's sad to see a small team's chat be bullied into a stream of just :eyes: :raising_hands: :party_popper:
- ehnto 4y ago
  I found it difficult when working with American companies, as they can be purified by positivity. A saving grace of software work is the retrospective, those were at least a moment of honesty. While I do appreciate the upbeat attitude, I found it made people hide small issues to not ruin the vibe, and anyone with major concerns with approach risks getting backbenched.
  - pfannkuchen 4y ago
    I have also been really confused by this. It reminds me a bit of a clunky, modified, but also less extreme version of face saving in Eastern cultures.
    - ehnto 4y ago
      I can see that, it is definitely a type of saving face I think. Almost like saving face for the team as a whole. We have a bit of it in Australia but it isn't as hard to pierce the veil. A robust system of banter takes the edge off I guess.
_adamb 4y ago
I find the pattern of "How are you feeling about X, 0-10?" followed up by "What would get you to a 10?" very useful. Almost nobody ever says 10 and when they do, when you pressure test it, "So, everything is 100% perfect and you want it to stay the same forever?" it gets revised down appropriately. "What would get you to a 10" is as very constructive way to think about it as well. It's not just complaining, it's articulating what you'd like to change. Once teams get used to this, it comes part of the vernacular, "I'm only 6/10 on this idea". The follow up is always, "What would get you to a 10"
- dataflow 4y ago
  > Almost nobody ever says 10 [...] "So, everything is 100% perfect and you want it to stay the same forever?" But I mean, "it's not perfect" doesn't imply "I want you to change something", right? To exaggerate a bit to get my point across: I'd love our meetings more if they included pony rides in the middle, but that doesn't mean I think we should incorporate pony riding sessions into our meetings. It feels weird to take all "this isn't perfect" messages to mean "you can/should be doing better" - things might not be perfect but they might just be good enough.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  I always feel there is an alterior motive when managers ask me these sorts of questions. Like the GP post, I'm rarely honest; I tell them what I think they want to hear. This has been learned over years where being honest resulted in the manager getting defensive, a lecture about "getting with the program" or at best an attempt to pursuade me to see it their way. Rarely have I ever had critical feedback accepted and used to improve anything.
  - operatingthetan 4y ago
    I tell my team that they are my first priority and I 100% mean it. When difficult situations arise I explain to them the pressures that are on me and ask them to do their best to help, and in return I try to make their lives easier the rest of the time. Of course I play the upward game, but in my mind it's in service of the team. This has the intended effect of having a very productive and functional team that seems (to me) to be honest with their feedback.
Andrex 4y ago
> I asked people for feedback. I found that if I just asked “do you have any feedback for me?” people often wouldn’t, but if I asked more granular questions—“was that meeting useful?”—I would usually learn a lot from it. "How was school today?" vs. "How was the class discussion on that book you were reading?"
kqr 4y ago
> The other side to this is - don't ask for feedback if you don't plan to action any of it. It's fine to ask for feedback without planning to do anything about it. Balancing the feedback of multiple people means sometimes not every opinion can be accounted for. Being defensive, on the other hand...
- roenxi 4y ago
  If we analyse the sentiment a bit, we discover that there was no point asking for feedback - the course was already locked in and there was nothing to change. The feedback was useless. Providing feedback has some risk for employees (maybe they'll get blowback) and it is easy for a manager to "ask for feedback" as a power play because they just want to show they can ignore it. It isn't nice to ask unless the intent is to treat the feedback respectfully and act on it. I can imagine getting surprising feedback that can't be acted on. But that should be genuinely unexpected.
  - achates 4y ago
    You might not know whether the feedback is worth acting on until you get it. If I ask my friend what he thinks about a new car I'm buying and he says "I don't like the color blue" then I might ignore it. If his feedback is that the transmission on this model explodes after 10,000 miles then I'll change my decision.
    - roenxi 4y ago
      You might, but if you are your friend's manager instead of just his friend then you should take the opportunity to get better at asking for feedback to do a better job of managing the relationship. Because what a manager should take away from that is that they weren't prepared enough - they could have asked "what do you think the most important aspects of buying a car are?" first and if "color" was the answer then either not asked for feedback or asked for feedback on something that would lead to a decision being made. The question was too vague. If you ask someone for their opinion, learn they don't like blue cars, then ignore it and buy a blue car ... you could do more to be respectful there. You don't need to do special work to respect your friend - presumably the relationship is strong and they can just walk out if they don't think the respect balance is good. But really things are better if a manager respects their reports.
User23 4y ago
It's the snafu principle at work. People in positions where they can ruin other people's lives will generally get told what those other people think they want to hear.
melvinmelih 4y ago
I call it “weak ideas, strongly held”
- steveBK123 4y ago
  I'd say possibly a plurality of who say "strongly ideas, loosely held" really do mean “weak ideas, strongly held”
devoutsalsa 4y ago
I’ve learned the biggest trap of all is “tell me what you’re really thinking thinking “.
- marginalia_nu 4y ago
  The "does this dress make me look fat" of management interaction.
- kayodelycaon 4y ago
  Yup. I got reprimanded once for replying honestly to this.
marliechiller 4y ago
> The "strong ideas loosely held" type guys need to be careful when they become management, because while it may work with peers (if they also love arguing), it doesn't work with a power imbalance. All your "strong ideas" will become "permanently held", congrats. As someone who loves a verbal spar and almost certainly falls into this category, this one resonates with me and I will be taking it to heart going forward. Thanks for pointing this one out!
matwood 4y ago
> I worked for a guy who must have read a book that told him to ask for feedback, but he was so rigid that he would vehemently defend against any feedback he was given One of the hardest parts of getting feedback is simply listening. Everyone's nature is to defend. When I get feedback I nod, listen, and try to never sound defensive - even if the feedback feels wrong at the time.
- papito 4y ago
  This translates to other areas. I am working on a new product, my idea and implementation from start to finish. Yesterday I asked my spouse to use it and tell me what she thought. Anything she had an issue with, I was like a crab - just claw claw claw. One has to resist the impulse.
  - steveBK123 4y ago
    Yes it translates EVERYWHERE, and it's a strong urge to fight.
  - matwood 4y ago
    > One has to resist the impulse. One of the best ways I have found to resist the impulse is to own all feedback. If your wife has an issue with something it's either a real issue or you failed to communicate it properly or it's a combination. My wife and I have a relationship where I explain something and she has issues forcing me to rework communication, the something, or a bit of both. Ends up being very helpful.
Balgair 4y ago
I think it comes down to a 'trust thing'. Managers have to prove to their reports that they are trustworthy. Until the ICs know that the manager will actually listen, let alone do anything, without the ICs job becoming more at risk, then nothing will come out. As for how to build trust? That's a whole other blog, not just a few posts.
ncr100 4y ago
The principle also goes hand in hand with opposite-direction feedback. Instead of "Thanks for the help!" ... ... say "Thanks for stepping in to help diagnose my bug, without being asked. I really benefited from your timely support, and for keeping track of that suspicious Login Field credential validation concern. I lost track of that detail and you held onto it."

KarlTheCool 4y ago

I feel this response. If voicing your opinion is a risk that needs calculating, it's not worth trying. It's sad to see a small team's chat be bullied into a stream of just :eyes: :raising_hands: :party_popper:

ehnto 4y ago
I found it difficult when working with American companies, as they can be purified by positivity. A saving grace of software work is the retrospective, those were at least a moment of honesty. While I do appreciate the upbeat attitude, I found it made people hide small issues to not ruin the vibe, and anyone with major concerns with approach risks getting backbenched.
- pfannkuchen 4y ago
  I have also been really confused by this. It reminds me a bit of a clunky, modified, but also less extreme version of face saving in Eastern cultures.
  - ehnto 4y ago
    I can see that, it is definitely a type of saving face I think. Almost like saving face for the team as a whole. We have a bit of it in Australia but it isn't as hard to pierce the veil. A robust system of banter takes the edge off I guess.

_adamb 4y ago

I find the pattern of "How are you feeling about X, 0-10?" followed up by "What would get you to a 10?" very useful. Almost nobody ever says 10 and when they do, when you pressure test it, "So, everything is 100% perfect and you want it to stay the same forever?" it gets revised down appropriately. "What would get you to a 10" is as very constructive way to think about it as well. It's not just complaining, it's articulating what you'd like to change. Once teams get used to this, it comes part of the vernacular, "I'm only 6/10 on this idea". The follow up is always, "What would get you to a 10"

dataflow 4y ago
> Almost nobody ever says 10 [...] "So, everything is 100% perfect and you want it to stay the same forever?" But I mean, "it's not perfect" doesn't imply "I want you to change something", right? To exaggerate a bit to get my point across: I'd love our meetings more if they included pony rides in the middle, but that doesn't mean I think we should incorporate pony riding sessions into our meetings. It feels weird to take all "this isn't perfect" messages to mean "you can/should be doing better" - things might not be perfect but they might just be good enough.
SoftTalker 4y ago
I always feel there is an alterior motive when managers ask me these sorts of questions. Like the GP post, I'm rarely honest; I tell them what I think they want to hear. This has been learned over years where being honest resulted in the manager getting defensive, a lecture about "getting with the program" or at best an attempt to pursuade me to see it their way. Rarely have I ever had critical feedback accepted and used to improve anything.
- operatingthetan 4y ago
  I tell my team that they are my first priority and I 100% mean it. When difficult situations arise I explain to them the pressures that are on me and ask them to do their best to help, and in return I try to make their lives easier the rest of the time. Of course I play the upward game, but in my mind it's in service of the team. This has the intended effect of having a very productive and functional team that seems (to me) to be honest with their feedback.

Andrex 4y ago

kqr 4y ago

> The other side to this is - don't ask for feedback if you don't plan to action any of it. It's fine to ask for feedback without planning to do anything about it. Balancing the feedback of multiple people means sometimes not every opinion can be accounted for. Being defensive, on the other hand...

roenxi 4y ago
If we analyse the sentiment a bit, we discover that there was no point asking for feedback - the course was already locked in and there was nothing to change. The feedback was useless. Providing feedback has some risk for employees (maybe they'll get blowback) and it is easy for a manager to "ask for feedback" as a power play because they just want to show they can ignore it. It isn't nice to ask unless the intent is to treat the feedback respectfully and act on it. I can imagine getting surprising feedback that can't be acted on. But that should be genuinely unexpected.
- achates 4y ago
  You might not know whether the feedback is worth acting on until you get it. If I ask my friend what he thinks about a new car I'm buying and he says "I don't like the color blue" then I might ignore it. If his feedback is that the transmission on this model explodes after 10,000 miles then I'll change my decision.
  - roenxi 4y ago
    You might, but if you are your friend's manager instead of just his friend then you should take the opportunity to get better at asking for feedback to do a better job of managing the relationship. Because what a manager should take away from that is that they weren't prepared enough - they could have asked "what do you think the most important aspects of buying a car are?" first and if "color" was the answer then either not asked for feedback or asked for feedback on something that would lead to a decision being made. The question was too vague. If you ask someone for their opinion, learn they don't like blue cars, then ignore it and buy a blue car ... you could do more to be respectful there. You don't need to do special work to respect your friend - presumably the relationship is strong and they can just walk out if they don't think the respect balance is good. But really things are better if a manager respects their reports.

User23 4y ago

It's the snafu principle at work. People in positions where they can ruin other people's lives will generally get told what those other people think they want to hear.

melvinmelih 4y ago

I call it “weak ideas, strongly held”

steveBK123 4y ago
I'd say possibly a plurality of who say "strongly ideas, loosely held" really do mean “weak ideas, strongly held”

devoutsalsa 4y ago

I’ve learned the biggest trap of all is “tell me what you’re really thinking thinking “.

marginalia_nu 4y ago
The "does this dress make me look fat" of management interaction.
kayodelycaon 4y ago
Yup. I got reprimanded once for replying honestly to this.

marliechiller 4y ago

> The "strong ideas loosely held" type guys need to be careful when they become management, because while it may work with peers (if they also love arguing), it doesn't work with a power imbalance. All your "strong ideas" will become "permanently held", congrats. As someone who loves a verbal spar and almost certainly falls into this category, this one resonates with me and I will be taking it to heart going forward. Thanks for pointing this one out!

matwood 4y ago

> I worked for a guy who must have read a book that told him to ask for feedback, but he was so rigid that he would vehemently defend against any feedback he was given One of the hardest parts of getting feedback is simply listening. Everyone's nature is to defend. When I get feedback I nod, listen, and try to never sound defensive - even if the feedback feels wrong at the time.

papito 4y ago
This translates to other areas. I am working on a new product, my idea and implementation from start to finish. Yesterday I asked my spouse to use it and tell me what she thought. Anything she had an issue with, I was like a crab - just claw claw claw. One has to resist the impulse.
- steveBK123 4y ago
  Yes it translates EVERYWHERE, and it's a strong urge to fight.
- matwood 4y ago
  > One has to resist the impulse. One of the best ways I have found to resist the impulse is to own all feedback. If your wife has an issue with something it's either a real issue or you failed to communicate it properly or it's a combination. My wife and I have a relationship where I explain something and she has issues forcing me to rework communication, the something, or a bit of both. Ends up being very helpful.

Balgair 4y ago

I think it comes down to a 'trust thing'. Managers have to prove to their reports that they are trustworthy. Until the ICs know that the manager will actually listen, let alone do anything, without the ICs job becoming more at risk, then nothing will come out. As for how to build trust? That's a whole other blog, not just a few posts.

ncr100 4y ago

The principle also goes hand in hand with opposite-direction feedback. Instead of "Thanks for the help!" ... ... say "Thanks for stepping in to help diagnose my bug, without being asked. I really benefited from your timely support, and for keeping track of that suspicious Login Field credential validation concern. I lost track of that detail and you held onto it."