4 ms·

And by default chats are not e2e encrypted. And even if you want e2e, it's not syncing between devices. Also groups are not e2e. Signal is cooler for encryption

And by default chats are not e2e encrypted. And even if you want e2e, it's not syncing between devices. Also groups are not e2e. Signal is cooler for encryption, heck, even fb messenger or Whatsapp. Featurewise yes, telegram is miles ahead

skrowl 4y ago
> it's not syncing between devices > Signal is cooler Clearly you haven't tried using Signal on multiple devices. It's terrible currently. Telegram / WhatsApp / etc work great on multiple devices.
- solarkraft 4y ago
  (I'm partially utilizing Cunningham's law here) Because all the really security focused apps insist on per-device private keys, so everything has to be re-encrypted by everyone per the other users' device. This mitigates key leakage problems to some extent, but also makes the UX as awful as you describe. I don't understand why nobody (to my knowledge) has yet gone the middle route of having a private key per user. Sure, it's a bit less secure, but it's surely better than users preferring to use un(e2e)encrypted options instead?!
  - kitkat_new 4y ago
    Matrix has this as an option
  - NayamAmarshe 4y ago
    > I don't understand why nobody (to my knowledge) has yet gone the middle route of having a private key per user. That's what Telegram actually does with their cloud encryption.
- Moldoteck 4y ago
  I said it's cooler for encrypted stuff compared to telegram not for features/ux. I use both and I'm fully aware telegram ux and easy of inter device operation is superior(well, they have some minor ux problems because of Premium but still, these are minor)
0xy 4y ago
WhatsApp backs up your encryption key to Google Drive by default, meaning it's far from end-to-end encryption. It's more like end-to-Google-to-end. If you choose to decline this default, your conversation partners probably haven't. Signal had a catastrophic bug that would send random images in your camera roll to random contacts. If you want your private photos sent to your family members, use Signal I guess.
- skinkestek 4y ago
  > WhatsApp backs up your encryption key to Google Drive by default, Does it? I have criticized WhatsApp a lot, but this was new to me. (I don't follow WhatsApp development any more but back in the day they used to do things like sending data actually unencrypted - not just not e2e-encrypted - over port 443, and storing unencrypted backups on Google Drive, but encryption keys was/is new to me if it is correct.)
- AdrenalinMd 4y ago
  >WhatsApp backs up your encryption key to Google Drive by default, meaning it's far from end-to-end encryption. This is a lie[1]. If you don't enable backups yourself, you loose your messages. You can enable E2E encryption for your backups. WhatsApp is vastly superior to Telegram in terms of E2E encryption. Telegram can read users messages on their servers and they are not even trying to tell their users to enable E2E. [1] https://www.tomsguide.com/news/whatsapp-encrypted-backups https://www.tomsguide.com/news/whatsapp-encrypted-backups
  - NayamAmarshe 4y ago
    > WhatsApp is vastly superior to Telegram in terms of E2E encryption. I must reiterate that this is a baseless claim because no one can see WhatsApp's source code and going by the track record of Facebook as a company, I'd rather choose to reject this statement than accept it as a possibility.
    - AdrenalinMd 4y ago
      The argument regarding "source code" is misleading and not entirely relevant. It's worth noting that Telegram's backend is also closed source, yet its supporters often overlook this fact. Decompiling and inspecting mobile apps is relatively simple, so if there were any issues with the WhatsApp client, they would likely have been uncovered already. As for Telegram, its messages are stored in plain text on their servers, and it doesn't offer default end-to-end encryption. This means that if Russian secret services were to gain access to Telegram's backend, they could easily read all the messages. Therefore, when using Telegram, it's important to be aware that its administrators have the ability to read all of your messages.
skinkestek 4y ago
Let me upvote this even if I personally don't care as much about e2e in large group chats. Why? First time I can remember top critical comment has gotten encrypted/e2e-encrypted correct :-)
dotancohen 4y ago
Even if the app is not e2e encrypted, that is much better in my eyes than the targeted advertising in WhatsApp. Go to the toilet more often than usual, suddenly diarrhea-related ads. Drop a friend off at a smoke shop, suddenly marijuana-related ads. I don't want to imagine if they have the drug dealers' and prostitutes' locations mapped, and what would happen if you stop there for some reason.
stiltzkin 4y ago
Telegram is more akin to Discord or forum platforms thanks to supergroups than it was to Signal. If you want privacy you use the right tool.

skrowl 4y ago

> it's not syncing between devices > Signal is cooler Clearly you haven't tried using Signal on multiple devices. It's terrible currently. Telegram / WhatsApp / etc work great on multiple devices.

solarkraft 4y ago
(I'm partially utilizing Cunningham's law here) Because all the really security focused apps insist on per-device private keys, so everything has to be re-encrypted by everyone per the other users' device. This mitigates key leakage problems to some extent, but also makes the UX as awful as you describe. I don't understand why nobody (to my knowledge) has yet gone the middle route of having a private key per user. Sure, it's a bit less secure, but it's surely better than users preferring to use un(e2e)encrypted options instead?!
- kitkat_new 4y ago
  Matrix has this as an option
- NayamAmarshe 4y ago
  > I don't understand why nobody (to my knowledge) has yet gone the middle route of having a private key per user. That's what Telegram actually does with their cloud encryption.
Moldoteck 4y ago
I said it's cooler for encrypted stuff compared to telegram not for features/ux. I use both and I'm fully aware telegram ux and easy of inter device operation is superior(well, they have some minor ux problems because of Premium but still, these are minor)

0xy 4y ago

WhatsApp backs up your encryption key to Google Drive by default, meaning it's far from end-to-end encryption. It's more like end-to-Google-to-end. If you choose to decline this default, your conversation partners probably haven't. Signal had a catastrophic bug that would send random images in your camera roll to random contacts. If you want your private photos sent to your family members, use Signal I guess.

skinkestek 4y ago
> WhatsApp backs up your encryption key to Google Drive by default, Does it? I have criticized WhatsApp a lot, but this was new to me. (I don't follow WhatsApp development any more but back in the day they used to do things like sending data actually unencrypted - not just not e2e-encrypted - over port 443, and storing unencrypted backups on Google Drive, but encryption keys was/is new to me if it is correct.)
AdrenalinMd 4y ago
>WhatsApp backs up your encryption key to Google Drive by default, meaning it's far from end-to-end encryption. This is a lie[1]. If you don't enable backups yourself, you loose your messages. You can enable E2E encryption for your backups. WhatsApp is vastly superior to Telegram in terms of E2E encryption. Telegram can read users messages on their servers and they are not even trying to tell their users to enable E2E. [1] https://www.tomsguide.com/news/whatsapp-encrypted-backups https://www.tomsguide.com/news/whatsapp-encrypted-backups
- NayamAmarshe 4y ago
  > WhatsApp is vastly superior to Telegram in terms of E2E encryption. I must reiterate that this is a baseless claim because no one can see WhatsApp's source code and going by the track record of Facebook as a company, I'd rather choose to reject this statement than accept it as a possibility.
  - AdrenalinMd 4y ago
    The argument regarding "source code" is misleading and not entirely relevant. It's worth noting that Telegram's backend is also closed source, yet its supporters often overlook this fact. Decompiling and inspecting mobile apps is relatively simple, so if there were any issues with the WhatsApp client, they would likely have been uncovered already. As for Telegram, its messages are stored in plain text on their servers, and it doesn't offer default end-to-end encryption. This means that if Russian secret services were to gain access to Telegram's backend, they could easily read all the messages. Therefore, when using Telegram, it's important to be aware that its administrators have the ability to read all of your messages.

skinkestek 4y ago

Let me upvote this even if I personally don't care as much about e2e in large group chats. Why? First time I can remember top critical comment has gotten encrypted/e2e-encrypted correct :-)

dotancohen 4y ago

Even if the app is not e2e encrypted, that is much better in my eyes than the targeted advertising in WhatsApp. Go to the toilet more often than usual, suddenly diarrhea-related ads. Drop a friend off at a smoke shop, suddenly marijuana-related ads. I don't want to imagine if they have the drug dealers' and prostitutes' locations mapped, and what would happen if you stop there for some reason.

stiltzkin 4y ago

Telegram is more akin to Discord or forum platforms thanks to supergroups than it was to Signal. If you want privacy you use the right tool.