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Man my heart goes out to you. I owned and operated an adult website for 18 years. For 15 of those years it was primary source of income. It was completely lawf

Man my heart goes out to you. I owned and operated an adult website for 18 years. For 15 of those years it was primary source of income. It was completely lawful and above board, no user-generated-content so I never once had any issues with controversial content etc. One day last year we get a notice from our bank telling us that we were deemed "high risk" and they were closing our commercial accounts. For months we tried to find any bank or credit union that would take us but they all turned us down. Someone actually posted our story to HN but it's not really tech related so didn't get many upvotes or engagement. So I know how devastating it is for ignorance and stupidity on the part of the others to shut down something that a) you worked hard to create yourself and b) was such a huge part of your life for so long. Extreme empathy.

NikolaNovak 4y ago
Do you have the link to original story and HN post? The engagement on HN tends to be due to interest in story but also time of day and other stories and specific wording of title and other fickle factors. I find that HN has a lot of interest in freedom of expression and how it interacts with banking sector, but sometimes topics slip nonetheless.
- gspencley 4y ago
  Yep https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33425319 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33425319 The story was posted before we closed, and we had put up a notice to our visitors explaining that we were trying to find alternate banking arrangements and would have to shut down if we couldn't. If you visit the site today, there is still some NFSW content, so beware. But it also has all of the details of the history of the site as well as what led to us having to shut it down if anyone is interested.
  - dageshi 4y ago
    So I use 4g net connection here in the UK and just tried to load what I assume is the site? coedcherry.com? I got a vodaphone (uk mobile phone co whose network I'm apparently connected via) nag page asking me to confirm me age, we protect young mobile users blah blah blah. Which... I have never seen before in the six months I've been using this connection. Any other porn site even massive ones like xvideos works fine, but coedcherry does not? Which is very odd. I'm really rather perplexed as to why your site would be blocked but the biggest porn site on the net is not if the purpose here is to block childrens access to porn.
    - proactivesvcs 4y ago
      I had this when trying to look up nmap docs on insecure.org.
    - iudqnolq 4y ago
      Try archive.org. Many UK mobile providers block it outright, without even an age bypass, because it can be used as a proxy to arbitrary sites.
      - dageshi 4y ago
        Figured it out, browser defaulted to http not https. Looks like the filters don't work on https.
    - mst 4y ago
      Their blocker is weird. I discovered it existed trying to check when the local gay bar called last orders.
    - jhugo 4y ago
      I used to hit this all the time when I lived in the UK. One of the first things you have to do when you get a SIM card there is ask the provider to turn off their "block randomly selected websites" function. At one point mine was blocking Wikipedia.
  - NikolaNovak 4y ago
    Ah; I bet if title was "Legal Canadian adult site forced shut down due to billing processor" or something that provided context, it might have gotten more traction. Otherwise "Random site you've never heard of shutting down" does not entice interest necessarily :-/ ( edit: Also, in your "Fuck Banks" page, I'm assuming " pay for offense expenses" is meant to be "pay for office expenses", in which case you may want to change it as "offense expenses" would go against much of the rest of the message of your post :-> )
  - NikolaNovak 4y ago
    would you be open to chat via email? I'm also in Ontario Canada. Every time I breach this type of thing to a non-IT person, they say "oh, porn sites are all sex trafficking and exploitative work", which doesn't feel mathematically true. I'm not a journalist or anything, but would as personal curiosity love to hear an (ex-)operator's perspective :)
    - nothereoften 4y ago
      > I'm also in Ontario Canada. Every time I breach this type of thing to a non-IT person, they say "oh, porn sites are all sex trafficking and exploitative work", which doesn't feel mathematically true. Yeah. Another (Canadian) voice in this space worth listening to: https://twitter.com/MsKateSinclaire/ https://twitter.com/MsKateSinclaire/ Unfortunately this thread is definitely not the only example of perfectly-legal, but adult-industry[-adjacent] people being cut off from banking. Credit card processing is even worse.
      - jhugo 4y ago
        It's not only adult. A huge range of legitimate industries are effectively cut off from easy banking & payment processing. This doesn't prevent those industries from existing, it just protects the monopoly of the large players in those industries, who can afford to have their legal team sit down with the bank / payment processor's legal team.
  - breck 4y ago
    Very interesting. Also a bit scary how the government can basically shut down any business under the broad guise of “anti-money-laundering”. The level of detail that they wanted from you is basically like “Provide step-by-step instructions for someone at this bank to copy your business and capture your profits”.
  - tester457 4y ago
    > we will be ending our banking relationship with Amber-Lace Entertainment Ltd.[0] > We found out, after connecting with industry colleagues, was that they all thought we were pretty dumb having the business name we do and were surprised this didn't happen way sooner. The name isn't what killed the business in my opinion because it is quite tame. Your risk was probably evaluated by some automatic process and no innocuous name could have saved it. [0] https://www.coedcherry.com/fuck-banks.html https://www.coedcherry.com/fuck-banks.html [NSFW]
segmondy 4y ago
For you or the next person. Checkout - https://www.hbms.com/highrisk-b https://www.hbms.com/highrisk-b
- ed25519FUUU 4y ago
  Credit card processing wasn’t the problem. Banking is the problem.
  - segmondy 4y ago
    Talk to the processor, ask them which bank to use. ;). The client bank is rarely the problem, often it's the underwriting bank of processors.
    - gspencley 4y ago
      What do you mean by "the processor" ? Our website did not sell anything direct to consumer. Our "customers" were "advertisers" (affiliate programs that supplied us with content and either mailed us a physical commission check or pay out electronically). There was no payment processing of any sort. What we needed to do was clear physical checks and receive deposits from electronic / online banking services like PayPal and Paxum. We had a business credit card which we used to pay for things like web hosting, and we had 3 bank accounts: a chequing account, business savings and US currency. We did not have a merchant account. It wasn't that the bank refused to process payments for us. They refused to hold our money and handle every day banking transactions like bill payments.
MuffinFlavored 4y ago
> One day last year we get a notice from our bank telling us that we were deemed "high risk" and they were closing our commercial accounts. For months we tried to find any bank or credit union that would take us but they all turned us down. High risk of what, chargebacks?
- gspencley 4y ago
  They never said. Not chargebacks though because we never sold directly to customers. We promoted affiliate programs and would get paid by our sponsors (electronically or by mailing us physical checks).
  - codetrotter 4y ago
    The adult industry should adopt Bitcoin
    - hanklazard 4y ago
      yes, and with an e-cash layer: https://github.com/cashubtc/cashu https://github.com/cashubtc/cashu
    - gspencley 4y ago
      I can't pay my accountant, utility bills or my property taxes with Bitcoin though. At some point that money needs to be converted to fiat which means I still need a commercial account. And to maintain a commercial account in current year, "Know Your Customer" regulations force the bank to ask you an insane amount of details about your business activities and cash flow. Even if they didn't, bringing in $120k / year into the account from a crypto exchange would raise a lot of questions and that, in and of itself, would likely get branded "high risk" by the bank since there is a perception that 100% of Bitcoin activity is money laundering.
      - im3w1l 4y ago
        You could have an old school exchange where people go in person to shout bids and offers and settle with briefcases full of $100 bills. Those can be used to pay accountants, utility bills and property taxes.
bondant 4y ago
Isn't there something like a right to own a deposit bank account in Cananda? Or is it too difficult to actually enforce this law?
- brazzy 4y ago
  My guess would be that a "right to bank" would only apply to individuals, not to businesses.
- gspencley 4y ago
  Exactly what brazzy said. Lots of rights for individual persons, but businesses need to be complete open books about their activities (Know Your Customer regulations) and banks have ultimate discretion when it comes to who they want to do business with. We consulted with a lawyer, not because we thought what our bank did was actionable, but just to explore options. First thing our lawyer said to us is "I want to make sure that you're not expecting that I can waive my magic lawyer wand and force the bank to reverse their decision right?" Of course we didn't expect that, but I did want to know if we had any rights that were being infringed and I had a few ideas about what to do with the business's money should the worst case scenario play out and I wanted to get a legal opinion and advise.
  - bondant 4y ago
    It's a shame no such rights exists in Canada... I think that in France it does exist such a right for individuals AND businesses. Any individuals or business that have been denied a bank account should be able to get a designated bank by the Banque de France. Here's the form for businesses: https://particuliers.banque-france.fr/sites/default/files/media/2022/06/23/formulaire_dac_personne_morale_en_anglais.pdf https://particuliers.banque-france.fr/sites/default/files/me... More informations (in french): https://particuliers.banque-france.fr/info-banque-assurance/droit-au-compte/faq-sur-le-droit-au-compte https://particuliers.banque-france.fr/info-banque-assurance/...
    - savingsPossible 4y ago
      wow This might be a blessing for anyone, even outside France. Is it too hard to open a subsidiary there? (Yep, you'd lose some money to fees, which still hurts...)
e40 4y ago
FT did a podcast series on the finances of porn and it was extremely interesting. Based on that, I'm not surprised. Certain factions of society are getting better at pushing their narratives, via the power they have amassed. It's hard to watch, for sure.
- hanklazard 4y ago
  The right to bank should be enshrined in the laws of free societies. I don't care what the business is or what people's moral qualms might be--as long as it is not breaking the law, there is no excuse for cutting off this critical business infrastructure.
  - zoobab 4y ago
    "The right to bank should be enshrined in the laws of free societies" Banks are living on "Credit", which is unethical and does not correspond to any creation of goods or services in the real economy.
    - CrazyStat 4y ago
      Is providing credit not a service?
      - loup-vaillant 4y ago
        It's not paid as a service. See Fractional Reserve Banking for the gory details, but the gist of it is, private banks create money out of thin air (within limits) so they can lend it to you. And then they charge interest back for it. That's not how it should work. First there's the morally questionable interest rates to begin with (not all societies or religions permitted that), but even if we assume it is legitimate, the justification for this is something about investment and risk taking. Which are supposed to involve your own funds, not money you printed out of thin air. But there is a risk, and there is a service. How should they charge for it? Well, it's simple: risks are supposed to be (and are) handled by insurances. And then there's the paperwork and checking and all that that most likely should involve a flat rate. This should be much more ethical than charging interest over money that didn't even exist to begin with. (Edit: 3 downvotes in 30 minutes, no rebuttal… guess I hit a nerve. I'll just say this: if you disagree with anything I've said here so strongly that you feel the need to downvote it, at least take the time necessary to articulate to yourself why.)
garbawarb 4y ago
This is fascinating to me, and sad to hear. Have you ever written about the history and starting up of your website from the business side of things, aside from the shutdown? I've thought about starting a similar business and would love to hear more.
artursapek 4y ago
[flagged]
saturn5k 4y ago
Does running a small p0rn website in 2023 still profitable? Can you still sell ads or make money from affiliate programs?
- gspencley 4y ago
  Yes it was profitable. That was one of the painful parts. I re-entered the job market in 2018 but my wife and I maintained the business in our free time with my employer's knowledge and consent. The business was feeding into our life savings, had a lot of assets and we had about 500k unique visitors per day (not huge but nothing to scoff at either). Our bandwidth bills were our major expense. All of that was taken from us because of prudish anti-porn attitudes and fear. Also, from what our visitors often told us, there was a perception that our site was 100% ad-free. This is because the content was all there to promote affiliate programs. I know that it's common for people to ask "why would anyone pay for porn when there is so much free stuff out there?" My 18 year "career" in the industry taught me that it is a symbiotic relationship. The free stuff advertises for the subscription based sites, and neither would exist without the other.
hosteur 4y ago
Do you have a link to the story?
sizzle 4y ago
Should have accepted Bitcoin or crypto and moved hosting to a more crypto friendly country? Sounds like an ideal use case for decentralized payments if I ever saw one.
bob_theslob646 4y ago
What about getting/receiving payment in crypto?
- minsc_and_boo 4y ago
  Still have to convert to USD, and most of the reliable exchanges are KYC, meaning they likely need to know your customers' identities. Doable, but probably not good for an adult toy/porn site.
Aeolun 4y ago
It’s so weird that a bank would close the account of a customer they’ve had for 15 years. How is that higher risk than taking on a random entirely new customer.

NikolaNovak 4y ago

Do you have the link to original story and HN post? The engagement on HN tends to be due to interest in story but also time of day and other stories and specific wording of title and other fickle factors. I find that HN has a lot of interest in freedom of expression and how it interacts with banking sector, but sometimes topics slip nonetheless.

gspencley 4y ago
Yep https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33425319 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33425319 The story was posted before we closed, and we had put up a notice to our visitors explaining that we were trying to find alternate banking arrangements and would have to shut down if we couldn't. If you visit the site today, there is still some NFSW content, so beware. But it also has all of the details of the history of the site as well as what led to us having to shut it down if anyone is interested.
- dageshi 4y ago
  So I use 4g net connection here in the UK and just tried to load what I assume is the site? coedcherry.com? I got a vodaphone (uk mobile phone co whose network I'm apparently connected via) nag page asking me to confirm me age, we protect young mobile users blah blah blah. Which... I have never seen before in the six months I've been using this connection. Any other porn site even massive ones like xvideos works fine, but coedcherry does not? Which is very odd. I'm really rather perplexed as to why your site would be blocked but the biggest porn site on the net is not if the purpose here is to block childrens access to porn.
  - proactivesvcs 4y ago
    I had this when trying to look up nmap docs on insecure.org.
  - iudqnolq 4y ago
    Try archive.org. Many UK mobile providers block it outright, without even an age bypass, because it can be used as a proxy to arbitrary sites.
    - dageshi 4y ago
      Figured it out, browser defaulted to http not https. Looks like the filters don't work on https.
  - mst 4y ago
    Their blocker is weird. I discovered it existed trying to check when the local gay bar called last orders.
  - jhugo 4y ago
    I used to hit this all the time when I lived in the UK. One of the first things you have to do when you get a SIM card there is ask the provider to turn off their "block randomly selected websites" function. At one point mine was blocking Wikipedia.
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  Ah; I bet if title was "Legal Canadian adult site forced shut down due to billing processor" or something that provided context, it might have gotten more traction. Otherwise "Random site you've never heard of shutting down" does not entice interest necessarily :-/ ( edit: Also, in your "Fuck Banks" page, I'm assuming " pay for offense expenses" is meant to be "pay for office expenses", in which case you may want to change it as "offense expenses" would go against much of the rest of the message of your post :-> )
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  would you be open to chat via email? I'm also in Ontario Canada. Every time I breach this type of thing to a non-IT person, they say "oh, porn sites are all sex trafficking and exploitative work", which doesn't feel mathematically true. I'm not a journalist or anything, but would as personal curiosity love to hear an (ex-)operator's perspective :)
  - nothereoften 4y ago
    > I'm also in Ontario Canada. Every time I breach this type of thing to a non-IT person, they say "oh, porn sites are all sex trafficking and exploitative work", which doesn't feel mathematically true. Yeah. Another (Canadian) voice in this space worth listening to: https://twitter.com/MsKateSinclaire/ https://twitter.com/MsKateSinclaire/ Unfortunately this thread is definitely not the only example of perfectly-legal, but adult-industry[-adjacent] people being cut off from banking. Credit card processing is even worse.
    - jhugo 4y ago
      It's not only adult. A huge range of legitimate industries are effectively cut off from easy banking & payment processing. This doesn't prevent those industries from existing, it just protects the monopoly of the large players in those industries, who can afford to have their legal team sit down with the bank / payment processor's legal team.
- breck 4y ago
  Very interesting. Also a bit scary how the government can basically shut down any business under the broad guise of “anti-money-laundering”. The level of detail that they wanted from you is basically like “Provide step-by-step instructions for someone at this bank to copy your business and capture your profits”.
- tester457 4y ago
  > we will be ending our banking relationship with Amber-Lace Entertainment Ltd.[0] > We found out, after connecting with industry colleagues, was that they all thought we were pretty dumb having the business name we do and were surprised this didn't happen way sooner. The name isn't what killed the business in my opinion because it is quite tame. Your risk was probably evaluated by some automatic process and no innocuous name could have saved it. [0] https://www.coedcherry.com/fuck-banks.html https://www.coedcherry.com/fuck-banks.html [NSFW]

segmondy 4y ago

For you or the next person. Checkout - https://www.hbms.com/highrisk-b https://www.hbms.com/highrisk-b

ed25519FUUU 4y ago
Credit card processing wasn’t the problem. Banking is the problem.
- segmondy 4y ago
  Talk to the processor, ask them which bank to use. ;). The client bank is rarely the problem, often it's the underwriting bank of processors.
  - gspencley 4y ago
    What do you mean by "the processor" ? Our website did not sell anything direct to consumer. Our "customers" were "advertisers" (affiliate programs that supplied us with content and either mailed us a physical commission check or pay out electronically). There was no payment processing of any sort. What we needed to do was clear physical checks and receive deposits from electronic / online banking services like PayPal and Paxum. We had a business credit card which we used to pay for things like web hosting, and we had 3 bank accounts: a chequing account, business savings and US currency. We did not have a merchant account. It wasn't that the bank refused to process payments for us. They refused to hold our money and handle every day banking transactions like bill payments.

MuffinFlavored 4y ago

> One day last year we get a notice from our bank telling us that we were deemed "high risk" and they were closing our commercial accounts. For months we tried to find any bank or credit union that would take us but they all turned us down. High risk of what, chargebacks?

gspencley 4y ago
They never said. Not chargebacks though because we never sold directly to customers. We promoted affiliate programs and would get paid by our sponsors (electronically or by mailing us physical checks).
- codetrotter 4y ago
  The adult industry should adopt Bitcoin
  - hanklazard 4y ago
    yes, and with an e-cash layer: https://github.com/cashubtc/cashu https://github.com/cashubtc/cashu
  - gspencley 4y ago
    I can't pay my accountant, utility bills or my property taxes with Bitcoin though. At some point that money needs to be converted to fiat which means I still need a commercial account. And to maintain a commercial account in current year, "Know Your Customer" regulations force the bank to ask you an insane amount of details about your business activities and cash flow. Even if they didn't, bringing in $120k / year into the account from a crypto exchange would raise a lot of questions and that, in and of itself, would likely get branded "high risk" by the bank since there is a perception that 100% of Bitcoin activity is money laundering.
    - im3w1l 4y ago
      You could have an old school exchange where people go in person to shout bids and offers and settle with briefcases full of $100 bills. Those can be used to pay accountants, utility bills and property taxes.

bondant 4y ago

Isn't there something like a right to own a deposit bank account in Cananda? Or is it too difficult to actually enforce this law?

brazzy 4y ago
My guess would be that a "right to bank" would only apply to individuals, not to businesses.
gspencley 4y ago
Exactly what brazzy said. Lots of rights for individual persons, but businesses need to be complete open books about their activities (Know Your Customer regulations) and banks have ultimate discretion when it comes to who they want to do business with. We consulted with a lawyer, not because we thought what our bank did was actionable, but just to explore options. First thing our lawyer said to us is "I want to make sure that you're not expecting that I can waive my magic lawyer wand and force the bank to reverse their decision right?" Of course we didn't expect that, but I did want to know if we had any rights that were being infringed and I had a few ideas about what to do with the business's money should the worst case scenario play out and I wanted to get a legal opinion and advise.
- bondant 4y ago
  It's a shame no such rights exists in Canada... I think that in France it does exist such a right for individuals AND businesses. Any individuals or business that have been denied a bank account should be able to get a designated bank by the Banque de France. Here's the form for businesses: https://particuliers.banque-france.fr/sites/default/files/media/2022/06/23/formulaire_dac_personne_morale_en_anglais.pdf https://particuliers.banque-france.fr/sites/default/files/me... More informations (in french): https://particuliers.banque-france.fr/info-banque-assurance/droit-au-compte/faq-sur-le-droit-au-compte https://particuliers.banque-france.fr/info-banque-assurance/...
  - savingsPossible 4y ago
    wow This might be a blessing for anyone, even outside France. Is it too hard to open a subsidiary there? (Yep, you'd lose some money to fees, which still hurts...)

e40 4y ago

FT did a podcast series on the finances of porn and it was extremely interesting. Based on that, I'm not surprised. Certain factions of society are getting better at pushing their narratives, via the power they have amassed. It's hard to watch, for sure.

hanklazard 4y ago
The right to bank should be enshrined in the laws of free societies. I don't care what the business is or what people's moral qualms might be--as long as it is not breaking the law, there is no excuse for cutting off this critical business infrastructure.
- zoobab 4y ago
  "The right to bank should be enshrined in the laws of free societies" Banks are living on "Credit", which is unethical and does not correspond to any creation of goods or services in the real economy.
  - CrazyStat 4y ago
    Is providing credit not a service?
    - loup-vaillant 4y ago
      It's not paid as a service. See Fractional Reserve Banking for the gory details, but the gist of it is, private banks create money out of thin air (within limits) so they can lend it to you. And then they charge interest back for it. That's not how it should work. First there's the morally questionable interest rates to begin with (not all societies or religions permitted that), but even if we assume it is legitimate, the justification for this is something about investment and risk taking. Which are supposed to involve your own funds, not money you printed out of thin air. But there is a risk, and there is a service. How should they charge for it? Well, it's simple: risks are supposed to be (and are) handled by insurances. And then there's the paperwork and checking and all that that most likely should involve a flat rate. This should be much more ethical than charging interest over money that didn't even exist to begin with. (Edit: 3 downvotes in 30 minutes, no rebuttal… guess I hit a nerve. I'll just say this: if you disagree with anything I've said here so strongly that you feel the need to downvote it, at least take the time necessary to articulate to yourself why.)

garbawarb 4y ago

This is fascinating to me, and sad to hear. Have you ever written about the history and starting up of your website from the business side of things, aside from the shutdown? I've thought about starting a similar business and would love to hear more.

artursapek 4y ago

[flagged]

saturn5k 4y ago

Does running a small p0rn website in 2023 still profitable? Can you still sell ads or make money from affiliate programs?

gspencley 4y ago
Yes it was profitable. That was one of the painful parts. I re-entered the job market in 2018 but my wife and I maintained the business in our free time with my employer's knowledge and consent. The business was feeding into our life savings, had a lot of assets and we had about 500k unique visitors per day (not huge but nothing to scoff at either). Our bandwidth bills were our major expense. All of that was taken from us because of prudish anti-porn attitudes and fear. Also, from what our visitors often told us, there was a perception that our site was 100% ad-free. This is because the content was all there to promote affiliate programs. I know that it's common for people to ask "why would anyone pay for porn when there is so much free stuff out there?" My 18 year "career" in the industry taught me that it is a symbiotic relationship. The free stuff advertises for the subscription based sites, and neither would exist without the other.

hosteur 4y ago

Do you have a link to the story?

sizzle 4y ago

Should have accepted Bitcoin or crypto and moved hosting to a more crypto friendly country? Sounds like an ideal use case for decentralized payments if I ever saw one.

bob_theslob646 4y ago

What about getting/receiving payment in crypto?

minsc_and_boo 4y ago
Still have to convert to USD, and most of the reliable exchanges are KYC, meaning they likely need to know your customers' identities. Doable, but probably not good for an adult toy/porn site.

Aeolun 4y ago

It’s so weird that a bank would close the account of a customer they’ve had for 15 years. How is that higher risk than taking on a random entirely new customer.