7 ms·
One interesting thing about middle ages technologies, like boats, is that the words in the different romance languages for things invented in this era are very
by narrator 4y ago
One interesting thing about middle ages technologies, like boats, is that the words in the different romance languages for things invented in this era are very different from each other. For example, in Spanish boat words like port and starboard are totally different[1]. Other examples of middle ages words that are very different: windmill = molino, wheelbarrow = carretilla.
Words that refer to older things have more latin roots and are thus similar. Very newly created words also are similar because of all the english loan words. E.g computer= la computadora.
[1] https://www.spanish.academy/blog/the-ultimate-guide-to-nautical-and-sailing-vocabulary-in-spanish/ https://www.spanish.academy/blog/the-ultimate-guide-to-nauti...
- denton-scratch 4y ago> windmill = molino I don't know Spanish, but "molino" looks like French "moulin", which is a mill; a windmill is "moulin a vent". So I reckon "very different" is an exaggeration.
- roveo 4y agoI imagine this word should be of Indoeuropean origin, Eastern Slav words for a mill also contain m-l-n (e.g. melnitsa). Modern English lost the "n" part, but it was present in Middle English, milne.
- ivanhoe 4y agoyes, it's "mlin" or "mlyn" in a number of Slavic languages, and I just looked up it's etymology in Serbian and the book says it comes from old slavic "mъlinъ" which they say comes from the Latin root "molinum"
- ivanhoe 4y agoand Italian "il mulino"... it all comes from Latin "molinum" for the mill (and "mola" for the grind stone used in mills)
- yobbo 4y agoThe name of Thor's hammer "mjolnir" (as english speakers would see it) did not come through latin though, so the version of the word in germanic languages was inherited independently. "Mjolnir" means something like "crusher" and the noun "mjol" (flour) means "having been ground up". For example, it can be combined as vetemjöl (wheat flour) or stenmjöl (ground stone or stone powder).
- denton-scratch 4y ago> the noun "mjol" (flour) means "having been ground up" Ah - "mjol" as flour must be cognate with "meal". I hadn't previously associated meal with mills, but it makes sense.
- hnbad 4y agoAs another data point: meal/flour is "Mehl" in German. Mehl/meal is milled in a Mühle/mill.
- Ichthypresbyter 4y agoFlour was originally only the highest quality grade- the "flower"- of ground grain.
- vidarh 4y agoMeal appears to be a cognate of Old Norse "mál" ("mål", "måltid" - meal, meal time - in modern Norwegian) rather than mjol. Compare also Mehl (flour) vs Mahl (meal) in German.
- yobbo 4y agoBoth meanings exist in English - "stonemeal" or "oatmeal" for example.
- pezezin 4y agoYes, "molino" is just mill. Windmill would be "molino de viento" and watermill "molino de agua".
- NeoTar 4y agoAn in German - Mühle... in fact the English Mill is pretty close too!
- stratosgear 4y agoAnd in Greek: μύλος. With latin characters: milos. So it seems the root of the word is the same...
- pantulis 4y agoJust a point, "starboard" sounds pretty similar to "estribor".
- pmontra 4y agoMolino is mulino in Italian. Ancient Greek and Latin had similar words starting with mol-. Given the importance of that technology I'm not surprised that the word didn't change much. English' mill is also close to the romance languages. [1] Port and starboard used to be "babordo" and "tribordo" in Italian but they were replaced by "sinistra" (the very word used to say "left") and "dritta". [1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mill#Etymology_1 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mill#Etymology_1
- kwhitefoot 4y agoBabord is port in Norwegian. But starboard is styrbord which makes a lot of sense because the steering board, or oar, is on the steersman's right side.
- ekianjo 4y agoBabord is also used in French
- stefncb 4y agoWe use "tribord" and "babord" in romanian.
- oesexe 4y agoDanish as well. I didn’t see it mentioned, so I will add: that back then, a ship could not moor along the key on starboard/styrbord side. So it had to be the other side: hence the English port side.
- anthk 4y agoBabor y estribor in Spanish. In Spanish we used to say "siniestra", now we say "izquierda", a loanword from Basque 'ezkerra'.
- russellbeattie 4y agoIn Spain a computer is an ordenador. Spaniards hate anglicisms. Car is coche, not carro, email is correo electronico, zipper is cremallera. Lots of others.
- xxs 4y ago>ordenador you mean unlike French?
- ekianjo 4y agoIs carro used more in Mexico then ?
- qtzfz 4y agoCarro is not used in Spain at all.
- anthk 4y agoIt's used, but for the old ones with horses.
- qtzfz 4y agoExactly, but don't ask Manolo Escobar about it, since it's somewhat of a sensitive issue for him.
- el-salvador 4y ago> It's used, but for the old ones with horses. This was new for me. The Spanish words carro, carreta, coche, carretilla, carrito all mean "something that has wheels on it", but the meaning keeps changing between car, horse drawn carriage, baby stroller, shopping cart, horse drawn cart or toy car between countries. Fortunately it's easy to figure out from context and doesn't have possible misunderstandings as the Spanish word for straw.
- jjav 4y ago
- loloquwowndueo 4y agoHowever in peninsular Spanish, computer = ordenador, the loan word is the French “ordinateur”.
- ekianjo 4y agoMexican spanish should not be the reference for what is said in spanish
- aae42 4y agoWhy not? https://www.statista.com/statistics/991020/number-native-spanish-speakers-country-worldwide/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/991020/number-native-spa...
- bee_rider 4y agoMexico & USA, language taking over buddies. We just need to grow Quebec, so we can get the full set over here. Long way to go, though…
- ekianjo 4y agobecause numbers don't matter. Just like Quebecois would not be the reference for the French language, even if it somehow outgrew the French speaking population in France
- loloquwowndueo 4y agoCheese is an interesting one - I would expect Spanish to share the word with French and Italian but it’s actually closer to English and Dutch. French fromage Italian formagio Spanish queso English cheese Dutch kaas Languages are so weird :)
- dendriti 4y agoThis tracks, actually - Spain (or Spanish monarchs) ruled the Netherlands for over 170 years.
- thaumasiotes 4y agoThat doesn't appear to be related. The word is not Germanic; Spanish is using the word it inherited from Latin, while English and Dutch are using the same word, borrowed from Latin. In other words, the reason that Spanish is similar to English/Dutch here is that they borrowed the Spanish word, becoming more like Spanish. The reason Italian and French aren't similar to Spanish is that they changed while Spanish didn't.
- marvin 4y agoIn the case of cheese, I've had a long-running discussion with French extended family regarding exactly what the words refer to. Norwegian 'cheese' = 'ost', and we refer to the brown cheese produced by boiling and solidifying the left-over whey fluid from cheese production as 'brunost'; 'brown cheese'. This product is important in cultures where food security and calories are held at a premium. My French relatives however, insist that this is not real cheese, as it is not fermented. But the Norwegian language has no such distinction -- the 'brunost' is an instance of 'mysost'; 'cheese produced from whey'. This is no less real cheese than the one you ferment from caseine. This naturally led me down a rabbit hole of etymological investigation. The best conclusion I've reached so far, is that the Germanic words stemming from 'kase', referring to caseine, naturally refer to cheeses that would mostly be fermented, as this is what happens with the solid caseine when you leave it around for a bit. Whereas Norwegian 'ost', stemming from 'yste', the verb for separating the caseine from the whey, makes no such distinction. And ironically, the Latin-stemming words 'fromage', 'formagio', stem from Latin 'formicum'; something that is cast in a form. Having nothing at all to do with fermentation or even milk! There are two conclusions here, one being that the dictionary translation of words does not capture somewhat-subtle but sometimes important distinctions between words. The second conclusion is that my French relatives are wrong and brown cheese is in fact fromage. But not cheese, I will concede as much.
- copperx 4y agoReally? in French, starboard is tribord, and in Spanish, it's estribor. Port is bâbord, and in Spanish, it's babor. How are they different?
- mejutoco 4y agoIn Spain the computer is el ordenador. Port and starboard are babor y estribor (similar to French). I think it is more about who introduced these words. Etymology is fascinating.
- mattigames 4y agoIn the 90s in Colombia (perhaps all LATAM) we used "ordenador" but quickly fell out of use in favor of "computador", now only few old people occasionally call it "ordenador" in this country.
- jjav 4y ago> in Spanish boat words like port and starboard are totally different Indeed. Spanish is my native language but I learned sailing in the US so my nautical vocabulary is all in English. I feel completely illiterate on a Spanish speaking boat.