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Court strikes down Berkeley’s ban on natural gas in new construction
- baggy_trough 4y agoI don't know if this is a good legal decision, but it's certainly a good practical decision. California's forced electrification is a disaster in the making.
- runarberg 4y agoHow so? Particularly since we’ve been in a climate emergency for a few years now. In fact I think Berkeley was one of the first cities to declare one. How is electrifying households a disaster but emitting more green house gasses isn’t?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- qtzfz 4y ago[flagged]
- aorloff 4y agoBerkeley has declared a climate emergency, a housing emergency, a homeless emergency. Turns out City officials don’t do anything different in an emergency
- baggy_trough 4y agoCalifornia's grid is in no way prepared for the plans of forced electrification that are now in place. It is essentially a plan for the impoverishment and immiseration of Californians in pursuit of utopian climate dreams - an extraordinary waste of resources.
- xiphias2 4y ago“it’s disappointing the Ninth Circuit held that Berkeley, like many other cities around the country, cannot take common-sense measures to protect its constituents from climate change.” I'm all for getting rid of nat gas heating, and I wouldn't install it in a new home, but that doesn't mean that I believe that I would be protected from climate change because of it.
- kova12 4y ago> I'm all for getting rid of nat gas heating, and I wouldn't install it in a new home... Does that also apply if your new house is in Alaska?
- kube-system 4y agoHomes in Alaska use natural gas for heating at about the same rate as the national average. Fuel oil is the overrepresented heating fuel there.
- seb1204 4y agoStraw man
- operatingthetan 4y agoI don't agree with their line of thinking but that's not even remotely a strawman.
- xiphias2 4y agoProbably not, but we're talking about moderate climate (you couldn't pay me enough to move to Alaska). And of course I'm talking about a modern heat pump, not direct electric heating. ,,Heat pumps are generally more efficient than gas furnaces, but their efficiency may be affected by colder temperatures'' - Google search
- encoderer 4y agoYeah it’s really sad. Treating your constituents like idiots is supposed to be something the other side does.
- georgeburdell 4y agoGood news. Electricity is several times more expensive than gas per unit of energy in CA, and I generally find electrical appliances to be inferior at the present. The ban was just too soon.
- kube-system 4y agoHeat pumps are a lot better than they used to be, and in mild climates they can attain insane effective efficiency ratings... several times more efficient than gas furnaces per unit of energy. I do like cooking with a flame though, even though it's terrible for indoor air quality.
- hnav 4y agoI imagine that a proper range hood makes more of a difference than the stove technology the second you start pan frying anything.
- htag 4y agoI don't imagine that's the case for boiling things, which is 90% of my stove use.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- zarzavat 4y agoBuy a kettle.
- yellow_postit 4y agoElectric kettles in the US are so much more frustrating to use than UK given the electric standard differences. I never knew I’d miss fast booking so much but have yet to pull the trigger on something like a zojirushi boiler to use throughout the day.
- photochemsyn 4y agoWell of course the largest fossil fuel exporter on the planet is not going to tolerate some local community instituting a ban on fossil fuel use, why should anyone be surprised? The way things are shaping up, it's going to be the countries who have to import all their fossil fuels who will be the most interested in developing renewable energy as a replacement for fossil fuels. It's not exactly rocket science, is it?
- bagacrap 4y agoEven if big oil captured the judiciary, why would they care what Berkeley does when Europe generates more than enough demand for American natural gas exports?
- Kim_Bruning 4y agoThat's very short term though. The reason for Europe's natural gas demand at the moment is because the EU has this minor dispute with that other large supplier of natural gas: Russia. Lesson learned: Don't depend on resources that can run out or be denied to you. Right now there are literally simply not enough craftsmen around able to rip out/replace/supplement (my corner of) Europe's natural gas heating systems fast enough. The waiting lists are insane. This means that the EU is stuck having to import natural gas as an interim emergency measure. But ask any county in northwest Europe and I bet they'd tell you that Berkeley is doing the sane thing here.
- bagacrap 4y agoSo Russian gas is going to start flowing again soon? I am not holding my breath on that one. In any case, the global harm that's come from building a multi-decade dependence on Russia for anything as crucial as oil and gas is far worse than the harm coming from some gas stoves, so European powers don't get to comment on sanity in this debate.
- Kim_Bruning 4y ago> So Russian gas is going to start flowing again soon? No. I think you must have misread something. In my previous post, I am strongly implying that Russian gas is not going to start flowing again anytime soon, if ever. > In any case, the global harm that's come from building a multi-decade dependence on Russia for anything as crucial as oil and gas is far worse than the harm coming from some gas stoves The use of large numbers of gas stoves (and gas ovens, and gas central heating) is what leads to this kind of dependency in the first place. > European powers don't get to comment on sanity in this debate. I'm talking about all the counties (villages, towns, cities) large and small, who have been working hard to help their local home-owners and renters get through this winter and beyond.
- encoderer 4y agoI live in Berkeley, it’s a nice place, great food, a lot of people who care about their neighborhoods. But I hate that the elected officials here feel the need to get involved in issues beyond their scope. Last week I was emailed by the city schools that they want to take the lead on… slavery reparations. What? Leave aside if reparations is right or not right, why the heck does the schoolboard think solving this problem is part of their job? It’s like deciding the school district will do ABI. It looks like resume building to me.
- monero-xmr 4y agoI live in a similarly “highly active” citizen government area, and the parking committee will issue proclamations on support for international wars. It’s just government nerds with too much money and time trying to play Model UN. I would say it’s harmless except there is always some hundred million dollar bond they are proposing.
- hnav 4y agoIn my opinion that attitude permeates the whole of society, nowhere is the inherent irony of the moniker "liberal" being applied to aspiring dictators as apparent as it is in Berkeley.
- akiselev 4y ago"Aspiring dictators in Berkeley" What permeates society is chronic histrionics.
- hnav 4y agoA tool the aforementioned aspiring dictators often wield, often in the context of a town hall, far exaggerating the effects of something they don't like. At the very least let's do a CEQA study first, ok?
- runarberg 4y agoI feel like that is only natural after a prolonged inaction by the elected official upper in the hierarchy. Climate change is only a world ending type of emergency, we are already at 1.2 degrees and are heading towards 3-4, a lot of people are already dying and the death count will grow exponentially every decade as inaction continues. Perhaps your elected officials are simply desperate. And given the severity of the situation, I wish more elected officials were many times more desperate than Berkeley’s.
- ovidiup 4y agoI live in another Bay Area city that recently imposed a ban on natural gas for all new construction, whether residential or commercial. In addition, the ban forces existing homeowners to install all electric appliances if the cumulative cost of remodels in a 3-year window is over $250,000. I find this idea absolutely bonkers when our electric infrastructure is terrible. The aerial power lines are subject to trees or large branches falling over and causing large power outages. Just this winter we had 4 major power outages, lasting from few hours to multiple days. Not only my city, the whole Silicon Valley had no power! The place supposedly having the brightest minds, trillion dollar companies, and the most advanced technology in the world! Not only we didn't have electricity, we had no Internet and cellular phones either. Absolutely insane! Yeah, I do have solar power and battery backup, but during the winter relying on them does not always work. Luckily I had enough solar and battery generated electricity to power my natural gas furnace so I can have my house heated. The fan on the furnace uses 700W when pushing air, far less than electric heaters that would kill my Tesla batteries in a few short hours. Why would anyone rely on a single source of energy, especially one that's so unreliable? Until we fix the electric grid, we shouldn't force everybody to switch to it.
- emodendroket 4y agoIf we can't reliably deliver electricity why should I trust the ability to reliably deliver electricity _and_ natural gas? Many gas appliances still require electricity to operate anyway.
- ars 4y agoNatural gas is underground and virtually never has an outage. A stove needs no power to run - you can light it with a match. And those appliances that need some electricity to help the natural gas can run off of a battery, or a tiny generator.
- hindsightbias 4y agoLet’s see how old gas infrastructure looks after the big one. San Bruno bonfires for everyone.
- gotoeleven 4y agoI think the key to managing statist left wing busybody governments is distraction. We need to get more stupid things on their radar, since they've already tackled the scourges of plastic straws, big sodas, and food deserts. How about a fourth kind of garbage bin? Maybe a purple one for waste that has bad vibes. Bad vibes are the third leading cause of harshed mellows in the US.
- coding123 4y agoEvery watt that is on used to heat makes more carbon in Berkeley today than it does to heat with a gas of some kind. I do, however, agree that new builds should be all electric, with the exception of commercial spaces.
- sudosysgen 4y agoThat's not true. Heat pumps are efficient enough that isn't the case.
- realworldperson 4y ago[dead]
- Kim_Bruning 4y agoAs a $European, I can only be jealous. We were importing our natural gas from Russia. Fortunately it was a mild winter, so people got away with lots of extra layers and blankets. The word "renewable" gets thrown around a lot to the point where you forget what it means. But it means a resource that you can renew: It doesn't run out, you don't need to depend on others, and best of all it doesn't need to be bought from a crazed homicidal neighboring nation.
- orwin 4y agoCompared to the last few years, it was not a mild winter. Colder than usual even (I mean I had to wear a coat in early December, when I was in t-shirts around Christmas in 2018, 2019 and 2020, and it's still cold in mid-April) but we haven't had a polar vortex that would have put significant stress on the grid
- aorloff 4y agoIt is unfortunate that the people of Berkeley keep electing local officials who want to grandstand instead of spending their time more wisely governing the city. There are certainly lots of right-now problems to solve in Berkeley, including at the operations of the City of Berkeley, and yet council can find time for a foreign policy agenda, a climate change agenda, a human rights agenda, etc.
- jnmandal 4y agoHeavy handed interventions from upper courts, like this one, only make itbmore likely that localities will fracture and separatism will take root. The central government should be making it easier for municipalities and states to set their own policy, not harder. Otherwise the political future of an already divided country is a dark one.
- infamouscow 4y agoThis is an extremely salient point that only the libertarians and anarchists understand and practice.
- vrglvrglvrgl 4y ago[dead]