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The US Wants to Close an ‘SUV Loophole’ That Supersized Cars
- ummonk 3y agoI’d limit the carveout to trucks with a certain minimum bed size. If you’re using most of the space for seating instead of a cargo bed, you aren’t actually using it as a utility truck.
- baseline-shift 3y agoGreat news. Long needed simple fix for climate. The highest sector for GHG emissions in California for example, is transport.
- Paul-Craft 3y agoThis is not in any way a "fix." It's a bandaid on a shotgun wound, at best.
- Daishiman 3y agoTransport is one the lowest-hanging fruits for fixing climate change with domestic heating.
- Paul-Craft 3y ago[flagged]
- bdcravens 3y agoThe US has the second most CO2 emissions [1], and roughly 28% of that total comes from transportation [2]. That means our transportation emissions are higher than most countries' total emissions. Reducing that number by 25% would be the equivalent of the UK eliminating 100% of its emissions. 1. https://www.statista.com/statistics/270499/co2-emissions-in-selected-countries https://www.statista.com/statistics/270499/co2-emissions-in-... 2. https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fast-facts-transportation-greenhouse-gas-emissions https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fast-facts-transportation-...
- pengaru 3y ago2020 seems like an odd year to source those stats from considering how abnormal transportation was during COVID-19. Particularly air travel, which is part of transportation, would have been way down vs. normal, artificially inflating the %age contributed by others including the fraction you're implying would go away.
- bdcravens 3y agoI was trying to source the most current information I could find. I'm happy to use more current data. Considering how car-dependent we are, years unaffected (or less affected) pandemic would learn more towards the US having a larger share.
- pengaru 3y agoWell, the distribution of transportation's emissions within the US is completely out of wack throughout COVID-19. People stopped commuting by car due to shelter in place and WFH, air travel was paralyzed, deliveries went up and trucking was a shit show. Throughout 2020 I practically never saw jets in the air, and that's quite unusual for my locale, being east of LA (JTNP).
- Paul-Craft 3y agoAnd how many years will that take? Hint: more than we've got, if we want to have a prayer of avoiding more than 1.5 degrees of warning. Just read for yourself here: https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/04/1115452 https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/04/1115452 > “This assessment shows that limiting warming to around 2C (3.6F) still requires global greenhouse gas emissions to peak before 2025 at the latest, and be reduced by a quarter by 2030.” Ain't happenin', and this isn't going to get us there. Only massive, worldwide action will save us. Again, this is not a "fix" in any sense of the word. At best, by itself, it's a feel good measure. But I'm sure we won't commit to what it would really take.
- BobbyJo 3y ago
- thecopy 3y agoWhat would you suggest the US policy makers do instead?
- SyzygistSix 3y agoRemoving the Chicken Tax in addition might be good.
- tmnvix 3y agoAs much as I agree that this is great news, I would like to see something that isn't focused exclusively on emissions - or even weight for that matter. As important as those are, I would also like to see something that focuses on size as well. There is so much potential in small vehicles, but it is stymied by the proportion of over-sized vehicles on the road. Something to short circuit the 'visibility arms race' would be welcome in my opinion.
- cozzyd 3y agoInstead of taxing fuel, governments should tax mileage * weight (or perhaps mileage * weight^alpha for some alpha...)
- hackernewds 3y agoWhy? Truck seamlessly and scalably move cargo for thousands of customers at once. Distributing that to hundreds of smaller trucks for tax efficiency would be worse for the env
- cozzyd 3y agoIt wouldn't make sense to distribute to smaller trucks for tax efficiency when considering the cost of the extra trucks, drivers, and loading/unloading. And besides, trucks already pay more in fuel tax. A mileage tax is going to be a necessity with electrification in the future, and it doesn't make sense for all weight-classes to pay the same tax as they don't do equal damage to roads.
- thecopy 3y ago>equal damage to roads. That's an understatement. Afaik damage to the road scales with weight to the _FOURTH_ power.
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoDon’t wheels and weight distribution have something to do with this? Otherwise this property would be really easy to game.
- cozzyd 3y agoRelevant NJB video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo
- hinkley 3y agoLet skilled labor get commercial driver's licenses to drive those huge trucks and get the rest of them off the road.
- Proven 3y ago[dead]
- derdlick 3y agoSo regulations on small cars forced people to buy larger vehicles, and their solution is even more regulations, just this time on larger vehicles? How about just relax regulations on the smallest vehicles, making them more feasible?
- AlecSchueler 3y agoSurely those regulations still serve a purpose?
- hospitalhusband 3y ago> The more hegemonic the system, the more the imagination is struck by the smallest of its reversals. The challenge, even infinitesimal, is the image of a chain failure. Seriously though, the purpose of those regulations is to prevent upstarts from making simple, cheap, reliable vehicles and to protect the incumbents. Gotta have a big bank account and a lot of lawyers to redesign and crash test a handful of vehicles every few years. Modern hybrids still don't match (or barely match) the gas mileage of old, small, lightweight cars despite being substantially more complex, less recyclable, less repairable, and using substantially more (and more exotic) materials in production. Ouroboros regulations only exist to justify their own continued existence. Cars get bigger? More regulations on smaller (less safe) cars, making cars bigger. Rinse and repeat.
- theGnuMe 3y ago1980 and 2021 civic get basically the same mpg.
- dsfyu404ed 3y agoWhat MPG does a 2021 sedan vehicle that compares in weight and frontal area to a 1980 civic get?
- Tagbert 3y agoThat is a big win for the much larger, safer, and more luxurious 2021 Civic. The 1980 one was tiny and not something you wanted to be in in a crash. Also, the EPA ratings have changed between now and then getting stricter and closer to actual mileage. That 1980 vehicle would get much lower mileage ratings now than it did then.
- xqcgrek2 3y agoLarger vehicles are safer for occupants. This will lead to an increase in road deaths.
- Gigachad 3y agoThey aren't. They have a higher center of gravity and often roll.
- prepend 3y agoThey are. They also have a higher center of gravity and are more likely to rollover, but in genera SUV drivers are much more likely to survive crashes than car drivers [0]. But I think it’s hard to generalize as there are many safety factors and there are some cars that are safer than some SUVs (I survived a Chevy avalanche t-boning my Saab 9-3 that totaled both cars and had both avalanche driver and passenger taken away in stretchers and I took a cab home). But, generally speaking, SUVs are safer because they have such greater mass. And SUVs also have safety features. [0] https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/suv-passengers-more-likely-survive-crashes-flna1c9948205 https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/suv-passenger...
- kgermino 3y ago*safer for the occupants. They’re much more dangerous to others around them due to higher and more aggressive front ends, more weight, and less ability to see people around you.
- argiopetech 3y agoI work hard not to run into people. So far, I've had a 100% success rate. I can't say as much for the people around me, so "safer for the occupants" is a strong selling point.
- FooBarBizBazz 3y ago> So far, I've had a 100% success rate. With blind spots that big, how would you really know?
- TexanFeller 3y agoI'm thrilled that they're finally looking at these issues. I would like to own a tiny pickup, like the old Tacomas, but the way the regulations are written prevents anyone from manufacturing something small and efficient, all trucks are behemoths now. I'd love to kill the trend of making everything an SUV as well. Bring back the more efficient sedans. Families going to soccer practice should have a station wagon or minivan, not a four wheel drive Suburban.
- SyzygistSix 3y ago>Bring back the more efficient sedans. Is that a type of wagon I am unfamiliar with?
- vuln 3y agoWagons have hatches, sedans have trunks.
- doubled112 3y agoBut I thought hatchbacks had hatches. Really though, a wagon checks all of the boxes an SUV does other than the need to be bigger and higher Room for the kids, the cargo, and the dog. Decent interior. Good ride quality.
- flyingfences 3y agoHatchbacks have three pillars, wagons have four. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillar_(car) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillar_(car)
- Tagbert 3y agoBut that article also describes a 5-door hatchback that has the same pillars as the wagon. These terms are not fixed and not mutually exclusive. I’ve always considered wagons to be based on sedans and with the same length as the sedan but with the trunk expanded into an open cargo area with a hatch/door. A hatchback is similar but typically, the cargo area is shorter than the sedan and often the hatch is less vertical and contains less space. An SUV was originally designed like a wagon but built on a truck platform and typically given 4WD. A CUV is generally a tall wagon build on a sedan/hatchback chassis. A crossover is more vaguely defined but is built on a sedan chassis with expanded cargo space but less boxy than a wagon and typically only slightly taller than a sedan. A lot a vehicles that are sometimes called SUVs would really fall into the crossover category (Mustang Mach-E, Hyundai Ionic 5)
- dsfyu404ed 3y agoWhat's always missing from this discussions is mention of the social norms of the upper middle class who do the bulk of the new car buying and who's preferences determine the shape of the new and used car market. Sure, the CAFE rules are dumb but the behavior of the people who who are spending $50k on midsize pickups and $40k on electric sedans can't solely be explained by a nudge at the margins of tax policy. As long as the people who's demands and preferences do the lions share of shaping the new car market act like stuffing two car seats into anything less than a 3-row SUV or hauling bulk material on a tarp in a station wagon/crossover is some large burden SUVs/crossovers and pickups will continue to fly off the metaphorical shelves. And this is a self-reinforcing pattern. If people feel like buying a lot of vehicle is the kind of thing that successful white collar professionals do then that's what people with that kind of money will do, at least at the margins.
- AbrahamParangi 3y agoPeople buy large cars because that’s what’s available. Anecdotal example: I grew up driving Toyota Camrys. Nice car, lasts forever. At some point in the 2010s they started getting bigger, larger turn radius, lower visibility - all around a worse product.
- jmpman 3y agoThe SUV Loophole was not a consumer decision. It was a bill passed by Congress after lobbying by the big three automakers who had a niche they could compete against the Japanese and the Europeans. Without it, our domestic automobile industry would have died. It won’t be closed unless the big three have another profitable path forward. I expect electrification is that path with products like the F-150 lightning. The vehicles will not get smaller once battery density and price points are met. I’d actually predict them to get larger. If I could drive an electric suburban, charged by my solar array - why wouldn’t I?
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoParking such a beast would be hard in urban areas. But ya, I totally expect for the canyonero EV to come out and be popular.
- maerF0x0 3y ago> If I could drive an electric suburban, charged by my solar array Could an Average American home solar install actually charge enough to match their consumption (average daily miles), and with such a big vehicle (very heavy, moreso as electric)?
- malfist 3y agoPossibly. But more likely, the energy grid will adopt more and more renewables to the point it doesn't matter if you have a local solar grid at home or not.
- doubled112 3y agoWhat happens up here in Canada or some of the northern states? Cold and dark doesn't sound like a good combination for long lasting batteries and fast solar charging rates
- corbulo 3y agoNo
- jmpman 3y ago
- RecycledEle 3y agoPeople wanted rear wheel drive, American made, V8 powered cars. Detroit stopped making those, so people compromised and bought pickup trucks and SUVs. Now Detroit will be forced to stop making those. Just let people but what they want.
- bzzzt 3y agoYou don't want a V8 powered RWD car. Car manufacturers spend huge amounts of money to make you want a V8 powered car. When everyone has an EV, TV ads show cool new EV's and make you look backward for even thinking about burning gasoline you will want an EV.
- RecycledEle 3y agoTo be clear, I am talking about large cars, not sports cars. I'm referring to Crown Vic sized cars, not Camaros or Mustangs. I didn't see any ads for the Crown Vic in its last years of production. (That was the last of the cars I am referring to.) When Chevrolet discontinued the old Caprice & Impala in 1996, it was because journalists were ridiculing them for making them, not because they did not have customers. There were police departments begging to fund more years of production in addition to more than a year of back-orders from civilians. GM cancelled those orders because MBAs who could not change their own oil did not want to be made fun of for producing a car people wanted. Those cars sold used for more their new retail price for almost a decade. This is a problem across the auto industry. One big auto maker exits a class of vehicle, and everyone wants to follow. Find me a coupe utility vehicle like the 1987 El Camino, a compact pickup like the 2004 S10 pickup, or a full-size American made car like the 1996 Caprice. There is plenty of room in the market for someone to make one model of each of these. Just make them like they used to: simple, easy to work on, and reliable. MBAs can not bring themselves to do it. If they tried to build a coupe utility vehicle, they would have to turn it into a performance car (like the SSR) because performance cars sell for more money. If they tried to build a compact pickup they would have to make it the size of a full size truck (like the Colorado,) because full size trucks sell for more money. If they tried to build a full size car, they would have to turn it into a luxury car with 500+ horse power (like the Charger,) because those sell for more money. The problem is that none of those contraptions they would produce would sell in the volume of a reliable, low-end vehicle. So they would shut down the production line after two years. Instead of making cars we want to buy, they are chasing the newest trend, losing billions of dollars on electric cars that we can not afford. I called out Bob Lutz one time when he said GM was committed to making fuel efficient pickups. At the time the 17 MPG Colorado had recently replaced the 25 MPG S10. I said if they wanted fuel economy, they would bring back the S10 electric, the 25 MPG S10, and clone the 1970's Volkswagen pickup that got 35 MPG on diesel.
- latchkey 3y agoI've been looking for a new small car in the US. There really aren't any options any more. Even the 'small' cars are all 4 doors and I only want 2. All I can come up with is: Mini and MX-5 I'd love to go electric but the Mini-E range is terrible (~100 miles). They are supposed to be coming out with a new version that doubles the range though, so at least that is good.
- smackeyacky 3y agoDo they not sell the Ford Fiesta any more? Mazda2? Great little cars and surprisingly quick.
- latchkey 3y ago> Ford Fiesta Retired: https://www.ford.com/cars/fiesta/ https://www.ford.com/cars/fiesta/ > Mazda2 4 door
- smackeyacky 3y agoWhat a shame. The supermini class cars were awesome.
- latchkey 3y agoI really wish the Smart cars would come back. The plan now is just to get a ICE Mini. Then sell it in a couple years once the Mini-E comes down in price and goes up in mileage.
- nickd2001 3y agoIMHO Americans might like these if they ever got a chance to buy them : https://www.autotrader.co.uk/cars/citroen/berlingo https://www.autotrader.co.uk/cars/citroen/berlingo. Super practical. Not exactly beautiful but hardly worse than a lot of things that cost 4x the price. Take tons of stuff around with you. Fuel efficient. Affordable new, without a huge income. What's not to like? Well, apart from some people being anti-French, they aren't sold in USA presumably because US car-makers and lobby groups have kept them out.