15 ms·

Windows is my daily driver. I actually like the OS but Microsoft would do well to listen to these concerns being raised consistently. They need to ask some deep

by nstart 3y ago

Windows is my daily driver. I actually like the OS but Microsoft would do well to listen to these concerns being raised consistently. They need to ask some deep questions of themselves of what they want Windows to be. This reminds me of the days where Ballmers goal seemed to be to lock everyone into Windows and MS products when the real upside turned out to be “make MS products fully available where people already are”. To me this brought about some great changes to their products on android, Mac, and iOS. Even the web versions of their products are actually really good. I feel like windows is going through the same identity crisis that Ballmer took the MSFT brand through. Like what does it want to be? Is it an OS or an advertisement platform. Right now it’s trying to be both and that sucks. I hope that someone from very high up finally steps in at some point and clarifies the vision for windows and closes up all these crap avenues of revenue squeezing.

michaelcampbell 3y ago
> what they want Windows to be. A way to make as much money as they possibly can. Was this ever a question, really?
WWLink 3y ago
> Like what does it want to be? Is it an OS or an advertisement platform. It's an OS created for enterprise corporations to support and manage the actions of their employees in a digital world. First and foremost. Most MS products are. The ad platform is MS trying to find ways to continue growing profits. :D
- StillBored 3y ago
  Nah, few enterprises have asked for any of this trash either. I'm pretty sure that most of them would be perfectly happy with a windows 98 style GUI, that supported modern hardware. They don't want all this churn either, they want something that is stable, doesn't change very fast and doesn't require them to constantly retrain their staff or waste their IT admins time fighting with whatever new options require a new set of group policies. AKA, the new control panel that has been evolving.. most users are likely locked out of it for anything more advanced than changing the sound volume, its the IT nerds that need to figure out the optimal set of setting and push it out. Which is work that the C*'s would be more than happy to not have to pay IT staff to perform.
  - iJohnDoe 3y ago
    I think the point was that the big enterprises pay for licenses that don’t display this garbage. The rest, Microsoft is trying to monetize. I agree big time. We pay for licenses so none of this crap is shown. However, most businesses get the Windows license that is included with their hardware purchase and this crap is shown to them.
    - linguae 3y ago
      The sad thing is that you'd think the revenue coming from license sales to OEMs would be enough for Microsoft to not resort to these blatant attempts to make Windows an advertising platform, but I guess it's not.
      - iJohnDoe 3y ago
        Much agreed. It would take a bit more class within Microsoft these days to realize that and maybe they just aren’t ready to take the step in the right direction yet.
      - nobody9999 3y ago
        >The sad thing is that you'd think the revenue coming from license sales to OEMs would be enough for Microsoft to not resort to these blatant attempts to make Windows an advertising platform, but I guess it's not. I'm not defending Microsoft here, but just about everyone else is doing that same thing (and not just tech companies, auto, appliance, consumer electronics manufacturers and many others are doing this), so why wouldn't Microsoft do so as well? Microsoft isn't the problem per se. Rather it's the lack of effective privacy regulations. GDPR (sadly, I'm not in the EU) is a start, but is still far too weak to reverse the perverse incentives that lead to your coffee maker[0][1] spying on you. Yes, that example is (I think) an outlier, but I used it to point up just how widespread this sort of thing is. But we shouldn't let Microsoft off the hook for that reason. We should bash them (and everyone else who does this kind of thing) and do our best to vote with our wallets/feet. Failing that (for whatever reasons), as others have pointed out, Pro/Enterprise versions of Windows allow you to turn this garbage off. [0] https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jun/14/chinese-smart-coffee-machine-threat-data-security/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jun/14/chinese-sma... [1] I'd note that the article linked in [0] has some pretty blatant China bashing^W^W jingoistic undertones. That said, concern over this sort of thing out of China is definitely a concern, but less so (at least to me) than the US/Western corporations that are doing at least as much of this disgusting stuff. Edit: Clarified prose.
- milsorgen 3y ago
  I'm getting heavy flashbacks to Active Desktop and iirc "Active Channels". Does anyone remember those? Web feeds on/in your desktop. I believe it coincided with the release of IE 4 and their big web integration push.
  - JakeAl 3y ago
    Active Desktop and MS DHTML was awesome. Insecure as hell for "consumers", but awesome. VBscript/Wscript on/in the desktop as an application was really useful.
    - muyuu 3y ago
      If containers had been a thing, many of the wild MS ideas of the early 2000s wouldn't have been actually crazy.
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        They were a thing, on mainframes, micro-computers, and a few selected UNIXes like the (shortly lived) Tru64 and HP-UX. My introduction to containers was HP-UX Vaults.
        muyuu 3y ago
        they were not a thing that commodity hardware, but most importantly the target user, was really prepared to run at the time same as virtual machines were a thing in the early 70s and client-server in the 80s, but not for the target market despite the industry thought so for some time
        pjmlp 3y ago
        It depends on the definition of target user/market. For IT professionals definitly yes.
        muyuu 3y ago
- mdmglr 3y ago
  > Is it an OS or an advertisement platform. OS for enterprise customers and Windows Pro users who know how to use Group Policy. Advertisement platform for everyone else. Sad times.
  - esafak 3y ago
    Tell your kids to study hard so they can afford to stay away from it.
  - midoridensha 3y ago
    No, it's good times. Look at MSFT's stock price. Despite the lousy market, they're doing pretty well. You can whine all you want about the user experience being terrible, but that literally doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is how profitable the company is, and the value it provides to shareholders. Nothing else is important. If customers don't like being bombarded by ads in their OS, they're free to choose something else. Alternatives are available, but most users don't want to bother looking.
    - deaddodo 3y ago
      > No, it's good times. Look at MSFT's stock price. Despite the lousy market, they're doing pretty well. MSFT is one of my major blue chips. Between Office, Azure and Windows; they always perform pretty well: https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/MSFT/ https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/MSFT/ I’m not expecting any big returns from them, but they certainly beat inflation, when amortized over my investment period. And they don’t seem to be going anywhere soon.
    - pineaux 3y ago
      This is a very narrow view of what "good" is. If a company dumps barrels full of toxic DDT in the Pacific Ocean causing widespread pollution, but still make a profit for their shareholders; would you still argue they are a good company? Same for Windows. They are polluting our visual space. These ads are unwanted and not sought out.
      - 3y ago
- rwmj 3y ago
  My assumption is they want to pivot into Windows being really free of charge, with it monetised through advertising. Putting all this junk into the Start menu is testing the waters.
  - soylentcola 3y ago
    If they must go that route, I sincerely hope they offer a paid SKU in the traditional $100-200 range that dispenses with all of that. It's kinda icky, but if they want to offer a Pro version that's all clean and tidy for money, and a crappy, ad-laden version for free...I don't want to think of all the shitty bargain PCs people will be stuck with, but at least I'll be able to keep building a new PC every 8-10 years with whatever hardware I choose and include a Windows license as part of the parts list. Make this ad-supported version a budget option for people who can't afford more and won't install Linux if you must hit that market. Just don't ruin the whole thing for those of us who will pay a modest amount for hardware and software compatibility.
    - neverartful 3y ago
      Agreed! If I need a copy of Windows, I'd happily pay for a license that lets me run it without ads and other annoying crapware.
johnea 3y ago
[flagged]
muyuu 3y ago
At some point MS decided their main rival is Google not Apple. Perhaps they're right. I'm not a MS user other than occasionally when work requires it, haven't really been for many many years. But looking at their stock and profit, I can't say they are doing badly at all. At some point, especially when your focus is the consumer market, you're not going to be so scrupulous with certain choices where the trade-off is profit vs consumer interests. This is perhaps even much worse in the mobile market thanks to Google, the company that started with such good press and lofty goals. I'm skeptical that MS isn't going just fine, and I've never been a fan.
- Closi 3y ago
  I think they decided that Apple is a coopetitor - i.e. they are a competitor on multiple fronts but they ultimately need to support their products operating on Apple's platform.
  - Mindwipe 3y ago
    I think the Office team might feel that way. I'm not sure the rest of the company does. (We'd probably have seen a bit more movement towards making DirectX workable on M-series chips if that were a broad MS feeling.)
- ouraf 3y ago
  They took that decision after windows 8 and all the push for windows phones failed to compete with android and iOS. Now they just focus hard on offering software for people who pays and ads for people who doesn't. They can't just dictate the technology trends and styles like before (Metro lost space to Material, so they can't even influence the look & feel of computers like before). One of the few parts where Microsoft is still focusing on being cutting edge and force their proprietary ecosystem is XBox. They're still trying to be unique and stand out against Sony and Nintendo
  - muyuu 3y ago
    and their profits have soared
frozenport 3y ago
You think they can control it? Lack of design in Windows is a direct consequence of MS's inability to steer its process and product strategies. Multiple competing GUI teams, user experience, core devs unable to roll out features because of the number of stake holders, etc.
- xiphias2 3y ago
  For deep level changes you're probably right, but showing ads in windows is probably a board level decision. At least Satya doesn't look like the CEO who would approve it with all his product focus, it must come from above.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  On top of that, Azure seems to have become the main platform, and most people that cared about their career have jumped from Windows into "Azure OS". So Windows is left with the GUI civil wars, Windows old timers that cannot let go of COM (think ATL) and classical Win32, or new employees raised on UNIX workflows without any background on Windows development history. See efforts to put WebWidget2 and Blazor everywhere, while key figures from WinRT are no longer around, designers with macOS only experience get into the Windows UI design team, CLI tooling instead of VS GUI wizards,...
- ricardobayes 3y ago
  Windows 11 arguably looks better than Monterey. Please don't tell me closing windows on top left is a good UX decision and also don't tell me that Mac's weird 2.5D icons look good. Apple's software design language is actually terrible. Of course that can't be said about the hardware - that's world class.
  - anthk 3y ago
    Windows 10/11 would look great with an interface close to Zukitre for GTK2/3 from BSD/Linux world. Boring, gray neutral, yes; but it has clear buttons and widgets. Put a dark mode based on that and the problem it's solved.
  - dsego 3y ago
Dalewyn 3y ago
>Like what does it want to be? Is it an OS or an advertisement platform. Right now it’s trying to be both and that sucks. Microsoft wants Windows to be an ad platform and data sinkhole, it being an OS is mostly Win32 baggage that they've been repeatedly failing to kill off because users want an OS to run Win32 software and couldn't care less about being data sheep.
7speter 3y ago
Maybe I’m wrong but Windows is “free” (as in beer) unless you want to change your desktop, and then you have to fork over 100 dollars (if you don’t just buy a license from one of these grey market sellers who advertise on youtube). It seems pretty clear to me that Microsoft serves ads and collects people’s data to subsidize, at least to some degree the losses of not selling license codes for 150-200 dollars. This is because Google has its Chromebook platform that sells a laptop with ad subsidized (its their business model afterall) word processing, other cloud apps and “operating system.” I don’t know if I’m missing something but if I’m not I don’t understand why people think Microsoft is just randomly serving ads on Windows (to keep up earnings wise with google from quarter to quarter as it gives one of its former cash-cows away for free).
- yellowapple 3y ago
  > unless you want to change your desktop, and then you have to fork over 100 dollars (if you don’t just buy a license from one of these grey market sellers who advertise on youtube). That, or you install vlmcsd somewhere and activate against that.
  - Animux 3y ago
    Or py-kms.
- Kwpolska 3y ago
  Microsoft doesn't really care about pirate home users, their primary source of income is business users, and these tend to buy many more Microsoft products than just client Windows. Moreover, the vast majority of home users just buys a laptop with a fully licensed copy of Windows preinstalled.
  - 7speter 3y ago
    Even then, google proved most people are okay with having their data collected and if they can get away with it, might as well profit off of it too. Also, maybe this is an old thing, but doesn’t ms get some money for having windows installed on prebuilds. And yes, I know microsoft makes most of its profit off of enterprise and government contracts, but thats not gonna stop them from collecting data for immediate (and potentially long term, if they find some new thing to do with said data) profit.
flohofwoe 3y ago
> They need to ask some deep questions of themselves of what they want Windows to be. I bet they did exactly that and the answer was: we're going to milk our users as long as Windows is still relevant. Windows doesn't seem to have much of a priority anymore at MS now that Azure is the new darling.
- qikInNdOutReply 3y ago
  I bet that there is already some Linux version reverse-developed inside Microsoft with a windows copy on top and a working compatability layer below.
  - pas 3y ago
    they already have a compatibiltiy layer for "SQL Server on Linux", they had one for WSL1 (but WSL2 just runs in a VM), Edge already has official Linux builds. And as Office moves to the cloud all they need is just a thin-client running Edge. WSL2 already uses a VNC/RDP something to show Linux applications on the host, so it's not far-fetched to run the old legacy stuff in Windows VMs on Azure and VNC/RDP that to the user. but I think corporate IT is still in love with group policies, and many fancy "endpoint security" things (device management for compliance), and they might be slow to change
    - red-iron-pine 3y ago
      > but I think corporate IT is still in love with group policies, and many fancy "endpoint security" things (device management for compliance), and they might be slow to change Aye, AD rules the roost, as does O365 and being able to lock down work laptops. I've done work w/ FreeIPA and OpenLDAP stuff -- and as much as I hate to admit it, I think AD is better for that, and it's not hard to find an SME. Also kinda liked powershell, though I don't use it very often.
  - izacus 3y ago
    In what world would that make any sense? Like, seriously, how did you get from "Microsoft is pushing ads into the OS they own so they earn more" to "That means that they are spending money to rebuild their OS on top of another OS they don't own" ?
BrotherBisquick 3y ago
> I actually like the OS Because it allows you to do stuff that MacOS/Linux won't, or do you actually like it as software, in and of itself? If the former, that's understandable. If the latter, then may God have mercy on your soul.
- ricardobayes 3y ago
  It's not easy to like windows actually, for the most part, things do what they say on the tin, aka "close" really closes a program/window, unlike Mac. There you need to do that weird right click dance to really close something. The whole thing just feels super dumbed down.
npteljes 3y ago
>Microsoft would do well >They need to ask some deep questions of themselves Are they not doing well though? I see that they are a successful business.
- have_faith 3y ago
  "would do well" does not mean "in order to do well", it's more like cautioning someone on a dangerous path that appears to be fine at a glance.
  - npteljes 3y ago
    Thanks for the clarification, I wasn't aware of that usage. I feel the same though. I don't see how these things backfire at Microsoft. Rather than them doing something particular, I see that every such entity is doing things like this, so it's more of just a sign of the times, and MS just doing what everyone else is doing.
    - nstart 3y ago
      So, I recall ballmer doing really well financially at msft during his time. Ignoring stocks, revenue was up. I think profits were up. But then they missed every major trend during that time, and were looked at as creaking in the wrong direction. The reason I said they should ask themselves questions about windows is because it feels the same way to me. A product that still makes its way to enterprise and other money minting categories. But it’s quietly losing its way in the young developer/business/influencer market. Maybe one day MSFT wakes up and looks at windows and realizes they’ve been going in a stupid direction of screwing the long game over the whole time.
      - npteljes 3y ago
        I don't think they screw the long game at all. I don't see developers having much choice regarding the OS, so MS needs to deal with their companies, not with them directly. They are also placated with things like WSL, which satisfies many use cases where otherwise someone would have installed Linux or used git bash/cygwin/VM. Or a shiny new editor, like VSCode, and they also have GitHub... Businesses, as always, need things to just work, and in the current climate, that would include handling MS Office formats, and only one software exists that handles them well enough - MS Office. Windows is still bundled with new computers as the de facto free system, running it pirated is easier than ever, you can download from MS directly even. And now every of their offering is also online, bundled with a large cloud storage offering for really really cheap. I really don't think these offerings can be beaten. It makes business sense to use them, it makes sense personally to use them, and you can't avoid them either, because govts, administration, businesses all use them and expect the people to interface with them over these formats. I don't feel there's anything stupid about what MS is currently doing. But I DO feel that people are hurt by how they operate.
MattPalmer1086 3y ago
Honest question - what do you like about Windows? I used windows from 3.1, NT, 95, 2000 until XP, at which point I switched to Linux for my main OS. Obviously I used all the later versions of Windows too for work, but each version seemed worse and less usable (7 was ok I guess).
- nstart 3y ago
  I dont know how to explain it. I’ve used all major OS’s including a couple of flavors of Linux. I just love windows. 11 is pretty awesome for me where I use it on my surface pro 8 and it’s just really nice especially with touch. Touch is definitely a huge part of my workflow too to the point that when I sit at my desktop I sometimes try to touch the screen. There are so many tiny quality of life things like being able to use auto hot key to macro my way around daily stuff or how the file explorer works in a way that feels more intuitive. The little thing of being able to win+shift+s and snip a part of the screen where it loads into the clipboard immediately and does not save to a file by default. I heart power toys so much especially fancy zones which I use extensively. I also do like customizing my start menu. I find building my native home brew apps for the OS to be more pleasant. I find the windows terminal to be a fabulous experience I couldn’t live without now. Wsl is a blessing where I have multiple OS’s which I need and they don’t bog the system down. All my games work fine. I just… I really love the OS and what it lets me do. Other OS’s could probably do similar things (auto hot key is your final boss though) but I guess windows just clicks for me really really well. Literally, the only things I’d change about it right now are the whole adware/spyware bit and making the file path work like it does in Unix based systems. Backslashes! Urgh.
  - MattPalmer1086 3y ago
    Interesting, thanks. Many of those things I'd make the same argument for Linux, I think a lot is simply what you are used to. I don't use touch in my main OS, but maybe I should consider it! Wsl does look really useful too (although the one time I tried to use it failed because it didn't support shared memory yet). EDIT: Backslashes argghhh! Agree strongly here. Would be nice to get away from drive letters too and have a unified file system.
wslh 3y ago
I use and try multiple operating systems at work: Windows, macOS, Linux, iOS, tried ChromeOS Flex, etc. Windows 11 doesn't pass basic UX principles and I would not rant about bluetooth devices handling. Also, the performance of the UI is subpar ChromeOS flex in 8 years old notebooks. There are multiple UIs inserted by pressure in the same OS. I know the kernel itself is quite advanced, the problem is at higher layers. BTW, love .NET and the Linux susbsystem.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  My pet peeve is COM, the idea in abstract is quite good, the tooling besides VB 6 and C++/CX, not so much. Even with .NET we need a whole book on COM interop to actually understand how they go together, and now CsWinRT has rendered most of it outdated.
  - wslh 3y ago
    Regarding COM, we created pretty advanced tools to hook/intercept it [1]. It is a good abstraction as you said. DCOM is a mess though. [1] https://blog.nektra.com/main/2015/06/11/remotebridge-is-now-open-source-inspect-and-control-java-and-com-objects-remotely-in-windows/ https://blog.nektra.com/main/2015/06/11/remotebridge-is-now-...
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Interesting!
- gymbeaux 3y ago
  I use Linux (usually Ubuntu or a derivative), macOS and Windows 11 regularly. To me they all “suck”. They all have shortcomings, and my constant switching between them only proves that there isn’t a clear winner. I can think of at least two “dumb” things with each that are easy to address but for whatever reason…. Aren’t. I will say desktop Linux has been the worst experience for me, and it’s been that way since 2010 when I first installed a desktop Linux distro and tried to use it as my daily. BUT it’s not much worse than macOS or Windows for bugs.
tmountain 3y ago
Who’s going to want to use it if they opt for advertising platform?
otikik 3y ago
Wouldn’t the “advertising platform” part always suck, though? What I mean is that the problem is not an “identity crisis”. It’s that it’s becoming enshittified.
- AlexandrB 3y ago
  I agree. I don't think Microsoft is confused - Windows is becoming an advertising/"service" platform. This is entirely intentional. I also don't think that product managers or executives think of themselves as building an "OS" anymore. That's a very technical way of looking at the product vs. whatever business buzzwords at in vogue.
  - badloginagain 3y ago
    Which is insane to think about given the hard open-source "engineer first" pivot Satya has taken the company. It's like Windows team is committed to building the complete antithesis of that vision.
Seanambers 3y ago
Deep questions like why didn't anyone like Metro UI on Windows 8? :) Even on touch devices it sucked. I would say that was an obvious sign of a a sick organization when it effects that kind of carnage on its users. Only reason they got away with it, was that there were no real alternatives to Windows. Windows 11 is something in the same league, but i would say there are more alternatives now than ever before, so Microsoft better watch out. Got my first Macbook this year after 25+ years on windows/linux. The more I use it the more I like it much in the same way as when i started using iPhones 8 years ago.
- qikInNdOutReply 3y ago
  Cause everyone already had learned how to "touch"-gui, but microsoft in typical arrogance, redesigned it from the bottom up, throwing all the learnings away, you either had from android or macos. And like introducing a third language, to do the same tasks you already can perform fluent in two other languages, it was just this constant stepping into the void of expectations. It came out 2012 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_(design_language) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_(design_language) and was thus 9 years to late (1 iphone) and 5 years to late (1 android). It was moment were microsoft dediced to go uphill, that journey developers usually have to face, when dragging users away from windows (aka the universal gui). I mean, the normal user learns windows in school. You only make that sort of learning effort on rare ocassions. And you dont make it just because your vendor locks you out of a previoulsy perfectly working for you ("You learned to know it blind") device.
  - meepmorp 3y ago
    The Metro touch UI first shipped on the Zune HD in 2009. The iPhone launched at the beginning of 2007, and the iPod touch later in the year. I don't think it's fair to say Apple had a 9 year head start.
    - anotherman554 3y ago
      Zune's were very basic music and video players(I used to own one.) You can't say with a straight face that the user interface of the Zune had any great similarities to the User interface of a desktop OS.
al2o3cr 3y ago
They need to ask some deep questions of themselves of what they want Windows to be. They did - and the answer was "an advertising puke-funnel"
phendrenad2 3y ago
> these concerns being raised consistently They're being raised on HN, sure, but are they widely-held by the average Windows user? Seems to me the answer is no.
- brokenmachine 3y ago
  People aren't passionate about it like we are here on HN... But if a checkbox was there that they could click to not be tracked, they would click it.

by nstart 3y ago

michaelcampbell 3y ago

> what they want Windows to be. A way to make as much money as they possibly can. Was this ever a question, really?

WWLink 3y ago

> Like what does it want to be? Is it an OS or an advertisement platform. It's an OS created for enterprise corporations to support and manage the actions of their employees in a digital world. First and foremost. Most MS products are. The ad platform is MS trying to find ways to continue growing profits. :D

StillBored 3y ago
Nah, few enterprises have asked for any of this trash either. I'm pretty sure that most of them would be perfectly happy with a windows 98 style GUI, that supported modern hardware. They don't want all this churn either, they want something that is stable, doesn't change very fast and doesn't require them to constantly retrain their staff or waste their IT admins time fighting with whatever new options require a new set of group policies. AKA, the new control panel that has been evolving.. most users are likely locked out of it for anything more advanced than changing the sound volume, its the IT nerds that need to figure out the optimal set of setting and push it out. Which is work that the C*'s would be more than happy to not have to pay IT staff to perform.
- iJohnDoe 3y ago
  I think the point was that the big enterprises pay for licenses that don’t display this garbage. The rest, Microsoft is trying to monetize. I agree big time. We pay for licenses so none of this crap is shown. However, most businesses get the Windows license that is included with their hardware purchase and this crap is shown to them.
  - linguae 3y ago
    The sad thing is that you'd think the revenue coming from license sales to OEMs would be enough for Microsoft to not resort to these blatant attempts to make Windows an advertising platform, but I guess it's not.
    - iJohnDoe 3y ago
      Much agreed. It would take a bit more class within Microsoft these days to realize that and maybe they just aren’t ready to take the step in the right direction yet.
    - nobody9999 3y ago
      >The sad thing is that you'd think the revenue coming from license sales to OEMs would be enough for Microsoft to not resort to these blatant attempts to make Windows an advertising platform, but I guess it's not. I'm not defending Microsoft here, but just about everyone else is doing that same thing (and not just tech companies, auto, appliance, consumer electronics manufacturers and many others are doing this), so why wouldn't Microsoft do so as well? Microsoft isn't the problem per se. Rather it's the lack of effective privacy regulations. GDPR (sadly, I'm not in the EU) is a start, but is still far too weak to reverse the perverse incentives that lead to your coffee maker[0][1] spying on you. Yes, that example is (I think) an outlier, but I used it to point up just how widespread this sort of thing is. But we shouldn't let Microsoft off the hook for that reason. We should bash them (and everyone else who does this kind of thing) and do our best to vote with our wallets/feet. Failing that (for whatever reasons), as others have pointed out, Pro/Enterprise versions of Windows allow you to turn this garbage off. [0] https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jun/14/chinese-smart-coffee-machine-threat-data-security/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jun/14/chinese-sma... [1] I'd note that the article linked in [0] has some pretty blatant China bashing^W^W jingoistic undertones. That said, concern over this sort of thing out of China is definitely a concern, but less so (at least to me) than the US/Western corporations that are doing at least as much of this disgusting stuff. Edit: Clarified prose.
milsorgen 3y ago
I'm getting heavy flashbacks to Active Desktop and iirc "Active Channels". Does anyone remember those? Web feeds on/in your desktop. I believe it coincided with the release of IE 4 and their big web integration push.
- JakeAl 3y ago
  Active Desktop and MS DHTML was awesome. Insecure as hell for "consumers", but awesome. VBscript/Wscript on/in the desktop as an application was really useful.
  - muyuu 3y ago
    If containers had been a thing, many of the wild MS ideas of the early 2000s wouldn't have been actually crazy.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      They were a thing, on mainframes, micro-computers, and a few selected UNIXes like the (shortly lived) Tru64 and HP-UX. My introduction to containers was HP-UX Vaults.
      - muyuu 3y ago
        they were not a thing that commodity hardware, but most importantly the target user, was really prepared to run at the time same as virtual machines were a thing in the early 70s and client-server in the 80s, but not for the target market despite the industry thought so for some time
        pjmlp 3y ago
        It depends on the definition of target user/market. For IT professionals definitly yes.
        muyuu 3y ago
mdmglr 3y ago
> Is it an OS or an advertisement platform. OS for enterprise customers and Windows Pro users who know how to use Group Policy. Advertisement platform for everyone else. Sad times.
- esafak 3y ago
  Tell your kids to study hard so they can afford to stay away from it.
- midoridensha 3y ago
  No, it's good times. Look at MSFT's stock price. Despite the lousy market, they're doing pretty well. You can whine all you want about the user experience being terrible, but that literally doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is how profitable the company is, and the value it provides to shareholders. Nothing else is important. If customers don't like being bombarded by ads in their OS, they're free to choose something else. Alternatives are available, but most users don't want to bother looking.
  - deaddodo 3y ago
    > No, it's good times. Look at MSFT's stock price. Despite the lousy market, they're doing pretty well. MSFT is one of my major blue chips. Between Office, Azure and Windows; they always perform pretty well: https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/MSFT/ https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/MSFT/ I’m not expecting any big returns from them, but they certainly beat inflation, when amortized over my investment period. And they don’t seem to be going anywhere soon.
  - pineaux 3y ago
    This is a very narrow view of what "good" is. If a company dumps barrels full of toxic DDT in the Pacific Ocean causing widespread pollution, but still make a profit for their shareholders; would you still argue they are a good company? Same for Windows. They are polluting our visual space. These ads are unwanted and not sought out.
    - 3y ago
rwmj 3y ago
My assumption is they want to pivot into Windows being really free of charge, with it monetised through advertising. Putting all this junk into the Start menu is testing the waters.
- soylentcola 3y ago
  If they must go that route, I sincerely hope they offer a paid SKU in the traditional $100-200 range that dispenses with all of that. It's kinda icky, but if they want to offer a Pro version that's all clean and tidy for money, and a crappy, ad-laden version for free...I don't want to think of all the shitty bargain PCs people will be stuck with, but at least I'll be able to keep building a new PC every 8-10 years with whatever hardware I choose and include a Windows license as part of the parts list. Make this ad-supported version a budget option for people who can't afford more and won't install Linux if you must hit that market. Just don't ruin the whole thing for those of us who will pay a modest amount for hardware and software compatibility.
  - neverartful 3y ago
    Agreed! If I need a copy of Windows, I'd happily pay for a license that lets me run it without ads and other annoying crapware.

johnea 3y ago

[flagged]

muyuu 3y ago

At some point MS decided their main rival is Google not Apple. Perhaps they're right. I'm not a MS user other than occasionally when work requires it, haven't really been for many many years. But looking at their stock and profit, I can't say they are doing badly at all. At some point, especially when your focus is the consumer market, you're not going to be so scrupulous with certain choices where the trade-off is profit vs consumer interests. This is perhaps even much worse in the mobile market thanks to Google, the company that started with such good press and lofty goals. I'm skeptical that MS isn't going just fine, and I've never been a fan.

Closi 3y ago
I think they decided that Apple is a coopetitor - i.e. they are a competitor on multiple fronts but they ultimately need to support their products operating on Apple's platform.
- Mindwipe 3y ago
  I think the Office team might feel that way. I'm not sure the rest of the company does. (We'd probably have seen a bit more movement towards making DirectX workable on M-series chips if that were a broad MS feeling.)
ouraf 3y ago
They took that decision after windows 8 and all the push for windows phones failed to compete with android and iOS. Now they just focus hard on offering software for people who pays and ads for people who doesn't. They can't just dictate the technology trends and styles like before (Metro lost space to Material, so they can't even influence the look & feel of computers like before). One of the few parts where Microsoft is still focusing on being cutting edge and force their proprietary ecosystem is XBox. They're still trying to be unique and stand out against Sony and Nintendo
- muyuu 3y ago
  and their profits have soared

frozenport 3y ago

You think they can control it? Lack of design in Windows is a direct consequence of MS's inability to steer its process and product strategies. Multiple competing GUI teams, user experience, core devs unable to roll out features because of the number of stake holders, etc.

xiphias2 3y ago
For deep level changes you're probably right, but showing ads in windows is probably a board level decision. At least Satya doesn't look like the CEO who would approve it with all his product focus, it must come from above.
pjmlp 3y ago
On top of that, Azure seems to have become the main platform, and most people that cared about their career have jumped from Windows into "Azure OS". So Windows is left with the GUI civil wars, Windows old timers that cannot let go of COM (think ATL) and classical Win32, or new employees raised on UNIX workflows without any background on Windows development history. See efforts to put WebWidget2 and Blazor everywhere, while key figures from WinRT are no longer around, designers with macOS only experience get into the Windows UI design team, CLI tooling instead of VS GUI wizards,...
ricardobayes 3y ago
Windows 11 arguably looks better than Monterey. Please don't tell me closing windows on top left is a good UX decision and also don't tell me that Mac's weird 2.5D icons look good. Apple's software design language is actually terrible. Of course that can't be said about the hardware - that's world class.
- anthk 3y ago
  Windows 10/11 would look great with an interface close to Zukitre for GTK2/3 from BSD/Linux world. Boring, gray neutral, yes; but it has clear buttons and widgets. Put a dark mode based on that and the problem it's solved.
- dsego 3y ago

Dalewyn 3y ago

>Like what does it want to be? Is it an OS or an advertisement platform. Right now it’s trying to be both and that sucks. Microsoft wants Windows to be an ad platform and data sinkhole, it being an OS is mostly Win32 baggage that they've been repeatedly failing to kill off because users want an OS to run Win32 software and couldn't care less about being data sheep.

7speter 3y ago

Maybe I’m wrong but Windows is “free” (as in beer) unless you want to change your desktop, and then you have to fork over 100 dollars (if you don’t just buy a license from one of these grey market sellers who advertise on youtube). It seems pretty clear to me that Microsoft serves ads and collects people’s data to subsidize, at least to some degree the losses of not selling license codes for 150-200 dollars. This is because Google has its Chromebook platform that sells a laptop with ad subsidized (its their business model afterall) word processing, other cloud apps and “operating system.” I don’t know if I’m missing something but if I’m not I don’t understand why people think Microsoft is just randomly serving ads on Windows (to keep up earnings wise with google from quarter to quarter as it gives one of its former cash-cows away for free).

yellowapple 3y ago
> unless you want to change your desktop, and then you have to fork over 100 dollars (if you don’t just buy a license from one of these grey market sellers who advertise on youtube). That, or you install vlmcsd somewhere and activate against that.
- Animux 3y ago
  Or py-kms.
Kwpolska 3y ago
Microsoft doesn't really care about pirate home users, their primary source of income is business users, and these tend to buy many more Microsoft products than just client Windows. Moreover, the vast majority of home users just buys a laptop with a fully licensed copy of Windows preinstalled.
- 7speter 3y ago
  Even then, google proved most people are okay with having their data collected and if they can get away with it, might as well profit off of it too. Also, maybe this is an old thing, but doesn’t ms get some money for having windows installed on prebuilds. And yes, I know microsoft makes most of its profit off of enterprise and government contracts, but thats not gonna stop them from collecting data for immediate (and potentially long term, if they find some new thing to do with said data) profit.

flohofwoe 3y ago

> They need to ask some deep questions of themselves of what they want Windows to be. I bet they did exactly that and the answer was: we're going to milk our users as long as Windows is still relevant. Windows doesn't seem to have much of a priority anymore at MS now that Azure is the new darling.

qikInNdOutReply 3y ago
I bet that there is already some Linux version reverse-developed inside Microsoft with a windows copy on top and a working compatability layer below.
- pas 3y ago
  they already have a compatibiltiy layer for "SQL Server on Linux", they had one for WSL1 (but WSL2 just runs in a VM), Edge already has official Linux builds. And as Office moves to the cloud all they need is just a thin-client running Edge. WSL2 already uses a VNC/RDP something to show Linux applications on the host, so it's not far-fetched to run the old legacy stuff in Windows VMs on Azure and VNC/RDP that to the user. but I think corporate IT is still in love with group policies, and many fancy "endpoint security" things (device management for compliance), and they might be slow to change
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    > but I think corporate IT is still in love with group policies, and many fancy "endpoint security" things (device management for compliance), and they might be slow to change Aye, AD rules the roost, as does O365 and being able to lock down work laptops. I've done work w/ FreeIPA and OpenLDAP stuff -- and as much as I hate to admit it, I think AD is better for that, and it's not hard to find an SME. Also kinda liked powershell, though I don't use it very often.
- izacus 3y ago
  In what world would that make any sense? Like, seriously, how did you get from "Microsoft is pushing ads into the OS they own so they earn more" to "That means that they are spending money to rebuild their OS on top of another OS they don't own" ?

BrotherBisquick 3y ago

> I actually like the OS Because it allows you to do stuff that MacOS/Linux won't, or do you actually like it as software, in and of itself? If the former, that's understandable. If the latter, then may God have mercy on your soul.

ricardobayes 3y ago
It's not easy to like windows actually, for the most part, things do what they say on the tin, aka "close" really closes a program/window, unlike Mac. There you need to do that weird right click dance to really close something. The whole thing just feels super dumbed down.

npteljes 3y ago

>Microsoft would do well >They need to ask some deep questions of themselves Are they not doing well though? I see that they are a successful business.

have_faith 3y ago
"would do well" does not mean "in order to do well", it's more like cautioning someone on a dangerous path that appears to be fine at a glance.
- npteljes 3y ago
  Thanks for the clarification, I wasn't aware of that usage. I feel the same though. I don't see how these things backfire at Microsoft. Rather than them doing something particular, I see that every such entity is doing things like this, so it's more of just a sign of the times, and MS just doing what everyone else is doing.
  - nstart 3y ago
    So, I recall ballmer doing really well financially at msft during his time. Ignoring stocks, revenue was up. I think profits were up. But then they missed every major trend during that time, and were looked at as creaking in the wrong direction. The reason I said they should ask themselves questions about windows is because it feels the same way to me. A product that still makes its way to enterprise and other money minting categories. But it’s quietly losing its way in the young developer/business/influencer market. Maybe one day MSFT wakes up and looks at windows and realizes they’ve been going in a stupid direction of screwing the long game over the whole time.
    - npteljes 3y ago
      I don't think they screw the long game at all. I don't see developers having much choice regarding the OS, so MS needs to deal with their companies, not with them directly. They are also placated with things like WSL, which satisfies many use cases where otherwise someone would have installed Linux or used git bash/cygwin/VM. Or a shiny new editor, like VSCode, and they also have GitHub... Businesses, as always, need things to just work, and in the current climate, that would include handling MS Office formats, and only one software exists that handles them well enough - MS Office. Windows is still bundled with new computers as the de facto free system, running it pirated is easier than ever, you can download from MS directly even. And now every of their offering is also online, bundled with a large cloud storage offering for really really cheap. I really don't think these offerings can be beaten. It makes business sense to use them, it makes sense personally to use them, and you can't avoid them either, because govts, administration, businesses all use them and expect the people to interface with them over these formats. I don't feel there's anything stupid about what MS is currently doing. But I DO feel that people are hurt by how they operate.

MattPalmer1086 3y ago

Honest question - what do you like about Windows? I used windows from 3.1, NT, 95, 2000 until XP, at which point I switched to Linux for my main OS. Obviously I used all the later versions of Windows too for work, but each version seemed worse and less usable (7 was ok I guess).

nstart 3y ago
I dont know how to explain it. I’ve used all major OS’s including a couple of flavors of Linux. I just love windows. 11 is pretty awesome for me where I use it on my surface pro 8 and it’s just really nice especially with touch. Touch is definitely a huge part of my workflow too to the point that when I sit at my desktop I sometimes try to touch the screen. There are so many tiny quality of life things like being able to use auto hot key to macro my way around daily stuff or how the file explorer works in a way that feels more intuitive. The little thing of being able to win+shift+s and snip a part of the screen where it loads into the clipboard immediately and does not save to a file by default. I heart power toys so much especially fancy zones which I use extensively. I also do like customizing my start menu. I find building my native home brew apps for the OS to be more pleasant. I find the windows terminal to be a fabulous experience I couldn’t live without now. Wsl is a blessing where I have multiple OS’s which I need and they don’t bog the system down. All my games work fine. I just… I really love the OS and what it lets me do. Other OS’s could probably do similar things (auto hot key is your final boss though) but I guess windows just clicks for me really really well. Literally, the only things I’d change about it right now are the whole adware/spyware bit and making the file path work like it does in Unix based systems. Backslashes! Urgh.
- MattPalmer1086 3y ago
  Interesting, thanks. Many of those things I'd make the same argument for Linux, I think a lot is simply what you are used to. I don't use touch in my main OS, but maybe I should consider it! Wsl does look really useful too (although the one time I tried to use it failed because it didn't support shared memory yet). EDIT: Backslashes argghhh! Agree strongly here. Would be nice to get away from drive letters too and have a unified file system.

wslh 3y ago

I use and try multiple operating systems at work: Windows, macOS, Linux, iOS, tried ChromeOS Flex, etc. Windows 11 doesn't pass basic UX principles and I would not rant about bluetooth devices handling. Also, the performance of the UI is subpar ChromeOS flex in 8 years old notebooks. There are multiple UIs inserted by pressure in the same OS. I know the kernel itself is quite advanced, the problem is at higher layers. BTW, love .NET and the Linux susbsystem.

pjmlp 3y ago
My pet peeve is COM, the idea in abstract is quite good, the tooling besides VB 6 and C++/CX, not so much. Even with .NET we need a whole book on COM interop to actually understand how they go together, and now CsWinRT has rendered most of it outdated.
- wslh 3y ago
  Regarding COM, we created pretty advanced tools to hook/intercept it [1]. It is a good abstraction as you said. DCOM is a mess though. [1] https://blog.nektra.com/main/2015/06/11/remotebridge-is-now-open-source-inspect-and-control-java-and-com-objects-remotely-in-windows/ https://blog.nektra.com/main/2015/06/11/remotebridge-is-now-...
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Interesting!
gymbeaux 3y ago
I use Linux (usually Ubuntu or a derivative), macOS and Windows 11 regularly. To me they all “suck”. They all have shortcomings, and my constant switching between them only proves that there isn’t a clear winner. I can think of at least two “dumb” things with each that are easy to address but for whatever reason…. Aren’t. I will say desktop Linux has been the worst experience for me, and it’s been that way since 2010 when I first installed a desktop Linux distro and tried to use it as my daily. BUT it’s not much worse than macOS or Windows for bugs.

tmountain 3y ago

Who’s going to want to use it if they opt for advertising platform?

otikik 3y ago

Wouldn’t the “advertising platform” part always suck, though? What I mean is that the problem is not an “identity crisis”. It’s that it’s becoming enshittified.

AlexandrB 3y ago
I agree. I don't think Microsoft is confused - Windows is becoming an advertising/"service" platform. This is entirely intentional. I also don't think that product managers or executives think of themselves as building an "OS" anymore. That's a very technical way of looking at the product vs. whatever business buzzwords at in vogue.
- badloginagain 3y ago
  Which is insane to think about given the hard open-source "engineer first" pivot Satya has taken the company. It's like Windows team is committed to building the complete antithesis of that vision.

Seanambers 3y ago

Deep questions like why didn't anyone like Metro UI on Windows 8? :) Even on touch devices it sucked. I would say that was an obvious sign of a a sick organization when it effects that kind of carnage on its users. Only reason they got away with it, was that there were no real alternatives to Windows. Windows 11 is something in the same league, but i would say there are more alternatives now than ever before, so Microsoft better watch out. Got my first Macbook this year after 25+ years on windows/linux. The more I use it the more I like it much in the same way as when i started using iPhones 8 years ago.

qikInNdOutReply 3y ago
Cause everyone already had learned how to "touch"-gui, but microsoft in typical arrogance, redesigned it from the bottom up, throwing all the learnings away, you either had from android or macos. And like introducing a third language, to do the same tasks you already can perform fluent in two other languages, it was just this constant stepping into the void of expectations. It came out 2012 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_(design_language) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_(design_language) and was thus 9 years to late (1 iphone) and 5 years to late (1 android). It was moment were microsoft dediced to go uphill, that journey developers usually have to face, when dragging users away from windows (aka the universal gui). I mean, the normal user learns windows in school. You only make that sort of learning effort on rare ocassions. And you dont make it just because your vendor locks you out of a previoulsy perfectly working for you ("You learned to know it blind") device.
- meepmorp 3y ago
  The Metro touch UI first shipped on the Zune HD in 2009. The iPhone launched at the beginning of 2007, and the iPod touch later in the year. I don't think it's fair to say Apple had a 9 year head start.
  - anotherman554 3y ago
    Zune's were very basic music and video players(I used to own one.) You can't say with a straight face that the user interface of the Zune had any great similarities to the User interface of a desktop OS.

al2o3cr 3y ago

They need to ask some deep questions of themselves of what they want Windows to be. They did - and the answer was "an advertising puke-funnel"

phendrenad2 3y ago

> these concerns being raised consistently They're being raised on HN, sure, but are they widely-held by the average Windows user? Seems to me the answer is no.

brokenmachine 3y ago
People aren't passionate about it like we are here on HN... But if a checkbox was there that they could click to not be tracked, they would click it.