4 ms·

Let me save you from the momentary daydream and predictable disappointment after reading the clickbait article: > Mr. Thursfield and his Japanese-born wife, Ch

Let me save you from the momentary daydream and predictable disappointment after reading the clickbait article: > Mr. Thursfield and his Japanese-born wife, Chihiro > The couple have spent about $150,000 on renovations, and there’s more to do

jeffbee 3y ago
So, 20x less renovation than a $4m house in Palo Alto needs.
- guessmyname 3y ago
  > So, 20x less renovation than a $4m house in Palo Alto needs. While the comparison of renovation costs is interesting, it seems somewhat arbitrary to use Palo Alto as the sole point of comparison. After all, Palo Alto is widely known as one of the most expensive cities in the United States, so it’s possible that the cost of renovations there could be significantly higher than in other areas. It would be fascinating to see a broader analysis of renovation costs across different cities, regions, or countries, perhaps even taking into account factors such as local labor costs and materials prices. Only then can we truly understand the economic implications of home renovation and how it varies across the country.
  - jpdaigle 3y ago
    Yes, it would be interesting, because you'd expect materials to cost roughly the same wherever you are in the country (modulo shipping costs), and cost of labor to account for much of the city to city difference. A former landlord of mine, whose house I was renting in Palo Alto at the time (2021), shared that they were planning to kick off a major renovation that would total around 800K$ all-in. That's an absolutely stunning figure to renovate a 3bdrm home, considering I've also heard anecdotes from outside California, of completely stripping down a similar-sized home to the studs, redoing all plumbing / electricity / walls / flooring / high-end-everything in the kitchen... for under 250K$. So, where's the extra half-million dollars going? The delta in renovation costs alone between these anecdotes represents 10 years of the average California constructor worker's salary [per the BLS](https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472061.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472061.htm).
    - throwaway22032 3y ago
      This isn't unique to that region. Construction costs in London are significantly higher than in the north of England. I'd be surprised if this isn't common worldwide. Tradesmen are generally in high demand in these areas, it's not like McDonalds where you can just pay minimum wage + $5 and hope for the best. And as the other poster says, bulk materials are, well, bulky. Timber is comparatively expensive in the UK because we don't have vast forests like the US.
    - Retric 3y ago
      Shipping costs are a massive deal in construction so you’re stuck with local materials and local workers. Which recursively means your also stuck with fairly local factory workers making those materials etc. That said, the upper end of materials get crazy expensive anywhere. From basic linoleum floors in bathrooms, the next rung is tile and underfloor heating systems, and above that people are importing hand crafted marble from Italy etc. So each bathroom could have a 100$ toilet or a 15,000$ one etc.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      Older tradespeople are retiring and younger participation in the trades has not kept up (for a variety of reasons). Labor improvement costs will only go up if you or unpaid help (friends) are unable to do the work. Higher level thesis is structural demographics in general compressing productive worker cohort. https://www.google.com/search?q=skilled+trades+shortage https://www.google.com/search?q=skilled+trades+shortage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89fsWN9lxVs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89fsWN9lxVs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpggP9ygO_U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpggP9ygO_U
      - FrontierPsych 3y ago
        I have been talking to people in the construction/trades industry for a long, long time. I sell them stuff. At least for the last w20 years I've been talking with them, owners cannot find employees. It's the biggest complaint that I hear. I talk to construction company owners all the time and journeymen make $100,000+ per year. Not at all the companies, not the shitty owners, but if you look, you will find that money. This is way better than an average university education in all but a few majors like computer science. Not only that, but as you apprentice and learn the trade, you get paid, unlike university where you pay. When I went to university, you could get any degree, it didn't matter, because tuition was $600 per year. Get an English degree or art degree. You could pay your tuition and books and fees working a summer job. Now, if you go to university, anything other than a computer science degree is a waste of money and time, more or less. Most of the STEM field majors suck - you don't get squat for a biology degree or chemistry degree, or so I hear. Only computer science is a sure thing. Oh, there might be a few weird degrees you can make massive money in, like petrochemical engineering or whatever, but jobs are far and few between, and there's no a massive market for those type of degree, unlike computer science.
- jutrewag 3y ago
  In a small Japanese rural buffer. What sort of comparison is that.
- ShaneMcGowan 3y ago
  Or move to Ireland and buy 20 already finished houses for that price
  - jcul 3y ago
    200K wouldn't buy much of a house in Ireland these days. > Households paid a median or mid-point price of €305,000 for a residential property in the 12 months to January 2023. https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-rppi/residentialpropertypriceindexjanuary2023/ https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-rppi/resi... And that would be a lot higher if you want to buy in a city like Dublin or Cork.
verisimilidude 3y ago
Even with a Japanese wife, Japanese fluency, fondness for rural Japan, a career in remote work, and a flair for home renovation, I still have no interest in buying one of these houses. It’s a huge job to fix up most of these homes.
andrewryno 3y ago
Also: > Mr. Thursfield has done much of the renovation work himself, including woodworking.

jeffbee 3y ago

So, 20x less renovation than a $4m house in Palo Alto needs.

guessmyname 3y ago
> So, 20x less renovation than a $4m house in Palo Alto needs. While the comparison of renovation costs is interesting, it seems somewhat arbitrary to use Palo Alto as the sole point of comparison. After all, Palo Alto is widely known as one of the most expensive cities in the United States, so it’s possible that the cost of renovations there could be significantly higher than in other areas. It would be fascinating to see a broader analysis of renovation costs across different cities, regions, or countries, perhaps even taking into account factors such as local labor costs and materials prices. Only then can we truly understand the economic implications of home renovation and how it varies across the country.
- jpdaigle 3y ago
  Yes, it would be interesting, because you'd expect materials to cost roughly the same wherever you are in the country (modulo shipping costs), and cost of labor to account for much of the city to city difference. A former landlord of mine, whose house I was renting in Palo Alto at the time (2021), shared that they were planning to kick off a major renovation that would total around 800K$ all-in. That's an absolutely stunning figure to renovate a 3bdrm home, considering I've also heard anecdotes from outside California, of completely stripping down a similar-sized home to the studs, redoing all plumbing / electricity / walls / flooring / high-end-everything in the kitchen... for under 250K$. So, where's the extra half-million dollars going? The delta in renovation costs alone between these anecdotes represents 10 years of the average California constructor worker's salary [per the BLS](https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472061.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472061.htm).
  - throwaway22032 3y ago
    This isn't unique to that region. Construction costs in London are significantly higher than in the north of England. I'd be surprised if this isn't common worldwide. Tradesmen are generally in high demand in these areas, it's not like McDonalds where you can just pay minimum wage + $5 and hope for the best. And as the other poster says, bulk materials are, well, bulky. Timber is comparatively expensive in the UK because we don't have vast forests like the US.
  - Retric 3y ago
    Shipping costs are a massive deal in construction so you’re stuck with local materials and local workers. Which recursively means your also stuck with fairly local factory workers making those materials etc. That said, the upper end of materials get crazy expensive anywhere. From basic linoleum floors in bathrooms, the next rung is tile and underfloor heating systems, and above that people are importing hand crafted marble from Italy etc. So each bathroom could have a 100$ toilet or a 15,000$ one etc.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Older tradespeople are retiring and younger participation in the trades has not kept up (for a variety of reasons). Labor improvement costs will only go up if you or unpaid help (friends) are unable to do the work. Higher level thesis is structural demographics in general compressing productive worker cohort. https://www.google.com/search?q=skilled+trades+shortage https://www.google.com/search?q=skilled+trades+shortage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89fsWN9lxVs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89fsWN9lxVs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpggP9ygO_U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpggP9ygO_U
    - FrontierPsych 3y ago
      I have been talking to people in the construction/trades industry for a long, long time. I sell them stuff. At least for the last w20 years I've been talking with them, owners cannot find employees. It's the biggest complaint that I hear. I talk to construction company owners all the time and journeymen make $100,000+ per year. Not at all the companies, not the shitty owners, but if you look, you will find that money. This is way better than an average university education in all but a few majors like computer science. Not only that, but as you apprentice and learn the trade, you get paid, unlike university where you pay. When I went to university, you could get any degree, it didn't matter, because tuition was $600 per year. Get an English degree or art degree. You could pay your tuition and books and fees working a summer job. Now, if you go to university, anything other than a computer science degree is a waste of money and time, more or less. Most of the STEM field majors suck - you don't get squat for a biology degree or chemistry degree, or so I hear. Only computer science is a sure thing. Oh, there might be a few weird degrees you can make massive money in, like petrochemical engineering or whatever, but jobs are far and few between, and there's no a massive market for those type of degree, unlike computer science.
jutrewag 3y ago
In a small Japanese rural buffer. What sort of comparison is that.
ShaneMcGowan 3y ago
Or move to Ireland and buy 20 already finished houses for that price
- jcul 3y ago
  200K wouldn't buy much of a house in Ireland these days. > Households paid a median or mid-point price of €305,000 for a residential property in the 12 months to January 2023. https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-rppi/residentialpropertypriceindexjanuary2023/ https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-rppi/resi... And that would be a lot higher if you want to buy in a city like Dublin or Cork.

verisimilidude 3y ago

Even with a Japanese wife, Japanese fluency, fondness for rural Japan, a career in remote work, and a flair for home renovation, I still have no interest in buying one of these houses. It’s a huge job to fix up most of these homes.

andrewryno 3y ago

Also: > Mr. Thursfield has done much of the renovation work himself, including woodworking.