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Community is the future of AI: Blog post and community discussion
- sharemywin 3y agoI just wonder what a future with AI looks like that doesn't suck.
- andsoitis 3y agoAs of this writing, that entry carries a -11 score. Not sure what to make of it!
- esnard 3y agoI think the vote distribution is more important than the absolute score in this context, so here it is: > This question has received 11 upvotes and 32 downvotes.
- jedberg 3y agoI don't think I've ever seen a post on SO with that many downvotes before. That's pretty telling how the community feels about being used as training data (especially backed up by the highly upvoted reply saying such).
- fabian2k 3y agoThat's nothing for a meta post with an unpopular announcement, there are quite a few with hundreds of downvotes. But yes, this does likely indicate something about how the active SE users feel about this. It doesn't help that the blog is written in a way that is much more likely to appeal to shareholders than software developers on SO. But ChatGPT has been a quite significant moderation issue, and the blog post doesn't address any of this (it is kinda devoid of content in general beyond "SE will do something with generative AI, updates later this year").
- penjelly 3y agometa forums on SE sites see disagreement a lot more often than the regular answers areas. These are usually longtime SE users with a minimum of site credit to participate. So while these are are not the bulk of SE users their voices should ring louder imo.
- develatio 3y agoOh, there is at least one that I can think of! Puneet Mulchandani (director of Product at SO) announced "Jobs & Developer Story" sunset. It got more than 4200 downvotes. https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/415293/sunsetting-jobs-developer-story https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/415293/sunsetting-j...
- shagie 3y agoscore:-2000..-500 is:q brings out some of the greatest hits. https://meta.stackexchange.com/search?q=score%3A-2000..-500+is%3Aq https://meta.stackexchange.com/search?q=score%3A-2000..-500+... https://meta.stackoverflow.com/search?q=score%3A-2000..-500+is%3Aq https://meta.stackoverflow.com/search?q=score%3A-2000..-500+... The range is tinker able.
- jacknews 3y agohave I been missing something all these years? How do you see reply votes? I only see # points (not actual up/down vote count) on my own replies, and the OP.
- the_only_law 3y agoI believe you need a certain amount of points to unlock the feature. I couldn’t tell you how many unfortunately, I haven’t used SO much in years.
- shagie 3y agoClick on the votes themselves. This is at 1000 points as sort of a rate limit so that only a fraction of the site can do it) and to ensure that people understand the nuance of voting better. https://meta.stackexchange.com/help/privileges/established-user https://meta.stackexchange.com/help/privileges/established-u... You can also get a lot of vote information in the data explorer https://data.stackexchange.com https://data.stackexchange.com
- atodorov99 3y ago"That's pretty telling how the community feels about being used as training data" I don't think most of the replies on SO mention this directly, they mostly focus on how this will impact the site's quality negatively. But really you are correct that people don't like being used as training data and imo the "arguments" everyone are making against AI disadvantages on SO, on art sites, on wherever else are pretty much "excuses". Quoted because even if they are correct they are just excuses for the core much more ethical issue - humans don't want to be replaced. Being replaced by a machine is even shittier. Being replaced by a machine that exploited your own hard work against you even more so. In a real world example if my boss hired a junior whom I must mentor with the sole purpose of me being fired and replaced so he can pay him less. Well that would be considered very unethical even though it does happen and many workers do put up with it. Yet the current AI movement is that on an unprecedented scale and to the people being replaced it must feel like a massive bitch slap in the face. To me it seems like an extreme expression of power and it's bizzare how many people are fine with it.
- bluedino 3y agoSO has jumped the shark
- adventured 3y agoYears ago. AI bots like ChatGPT will make SO almost entirely worthless (worth so little there won't be enough demand to sustain a large service, it'll collapse except for being an archive).
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- qtzfz 3y agoThe fact that this post by Prashanth Abd al-Rahman (SO CEO) is so downvoted makes me think he's onto something. This is like when artists cry because of how good Midjourney is and they'll have to switch careers. If programmers are complaining about AI it's because it's good.
- iLoveOncall 3y agoDamn, you're right! My career of StackOverflow question answerer is done!
- devnull3 3y ago> Prashanth Abd al-Rahman (SO CEO) The name is Prashanth Chandrasekar or am I missing something?
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> downvoted makes me think he's onto something This is a bad heuristic, strengthening your priors based solely off rejection. Nobody questions LLMs can write code. The question is whether Stack Overflow has a place in that future. The community’s rejection, and CEO’s ham fistedness, suggest the data he has are the data he’s got. Which makes him uncompetitive vis-à-vis e.g. GitHub or any IDE.
- bitL 3y agoNo, the AI can only replicate what some other human figured out before and wrote down. Right now LLMs aren't really creative problem solvers. Therefore he needs a bunch of idealistic/stupid/unaware devs to keep sharing novel solutions that can be used to improve whatever AI he wants to have and sell it to companies which will fire those same devs that figured out those answers.
- endisneigh 3y agoIsn't it obvious that the new AI gods will require our regular offerings in the form of text, pictures, music, and anything else that can be manifested in this existence we call reality? Create, and praise the transformers. Amen.
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- narrator 3y agoTransformers and AI will discover that 98% of human expression is just a rehash of something else. That 2% of original expression will become 50x as valuable instead of getting lost in the noise. This may lead to unpredictable disruptions in the extreme regularity of human behavior as people start to realize how boring and unoriginal everything they've ever thought and done is.
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- hutzlibu 3y ago"as people start to realize how boring and unoriginal everything they've ever thought and done is" Most people actually like stability and no surprises, when doing their habits, like drinking coffee for example. It should not suddenly turn to wine, that would freak them out. And books and movies should follow a familiar pattern, or it will be perceived as disturbing. Slight variations are welcome, but nothing too drastic. So I doubt people will be truly shocked.
- nicbou 3y agoYep, we do the legwork, they profit from it. We get nothing, not even credit.
- ericmcer 3y agoThat would be a hilarious future if humanities job was to upload our creative offerings to AI and it dispenses some trivial amount of crypto based on how much it learned. Your 8 year olds cat drawing has been subsumed for 25c. Your essay on Philip K. Dick has been subsumed for .32c.
- penjelly 3y agoseems folks are mad because Stack exchange ceo wants to use their own LLM to provide answers on their site. Which is something that other SE sites have banned as answers previously.
- mistrial9 3y agothe use and abuse of the term "community" to mean things convenient to for-profit content aggregators. What could be wrong with the New Digital Feudalism?
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- andrewstuart 3y agoThis is the person who cancelled SO jobs. SO jobs should have been an absolute gold mine, instead he cancelled it. Makes no sense to me. If you can’t make a ton of money on job ads on Stack Overflow then you’re not trying. It’s true that SO was doing SO jobs wrong, but it should have been fixed, not cancelled.
- MuffinFlavored 3y ago> SO jobs should have been an absolute gold mine job websites I can think of off the top of my: hired indeed linkedin ziprecruiter google shows jobs websites google recommends: monster glassdoor simplyhired yes none of these are customized like stackoverflow but, don't you think that competition is stiff enough?
- cinntaile 3y agoYou really don't think SO had a leg up for dev jobs?
- smt88 3y agoThose competitors should all lose to SO because SO is a site every developer visits many times per week even if they aren't job hunting. Indeed can't find me devs that don't know they want to leave their current job yet.
- andruby 3y agoSure, there's lot's of competition. But: the market is also really huge, and SO had a good way to differentiate. Every business is recruiting and willing to pay hundreds or thousands to fill each spot.
- BoorishBears 3y agoHow many of those sites has one millionth the brand equity that StackOverflow has with developers? Every single site you mentioned is filled to the brim with low quality low effort Contract to Hire recruitment spam. StackOverflow could have been the way to get real tech jobs, but they squandered it.
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- chx 3y agoPrashanth Chandrasekar was brought in as the hatchet man to facilitate the sale after destroying Rackspace. Fired the beloved community managers and the community became much more hostile since. Why are any of you surprised he is out of touch with the community? SO should be ran by a foundation funded by tech companies enlightened enough to realize the massive productivity gains it produces (with SE as a side goodwill project). In this era, this counts as wishful thinking. Instead we got a 1.8B sale, that's not pocket change, now the profit must flow. This is what Cory Doctorow calls enshittification. https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/ https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/
- jollofricepeas 3y agoThere are enlightened tech companies? Tech is no more enlightened than the robber barons were 100 years ago. There’s only three real options for platforms like SO: - Mozilla - Wikimedia Foundation - Internet Archive
- BrandoElFollito 3y agoLet's Encrypt is an example of such construction
- chx 3y agoI did say this counts as wishful thinking...
- micromacrofoot 3y agoAutomattic? they got a bargain on tumblr
- the_third_wave 3y agoOnly one really, this being Internet Archive. Mozilla [1] and the Wikimedia Foundation [2 - talking about Wikipedia specifically] are too ideologically tainted to be seen as "enlightened". I have not heard of similar problems with the Internet Archive so I hope that sanity prevails in that organisation so that internet history is recorded regardless of the ideological bent of what is archived. [1] https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/we-need-more-than-deplatforming https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/we-need-more-than-deplat... [2] https://unherd.com/thepost/wikipedia-co-founder-i-no-longer-trust-the-website-i-created/ https://unherd.com/thepost/wikipedia-co-founder-i-no-longer-...
- nullandvoid 3y agoProviding this is opt in i'm pretty OK with it, unless i'm missing something? We trialed a private SO instance at work, and discoverability was an issue (now we have to search slack engineering channels, check notion, and check SO). If I could quickly ask, in for example slack, a question in natural language and have it query our private SO, slack, notion etc, I would be pretty game (providing this data remains private).
- jhack 3y agoSO is a toxic cesspool, especially for people new to programming or just looking to learn. If ChatGPT and other AI tools can get the job done without resorting to asking anything from the SO “community”, that’s a victory.
- lewhoo 3y agoIt has also helped me hundreds of times.
- mteam88 3y agoBecause you asked a question? Or because someone else did?
- lewhoo 3y agoThe latter. But I suppose it's typical. A given problem usually emerges for thousands of people so it's not surprising I was never the first to ask.
- shanebellone 3y agoDoes the distinction actually matter?
- yeputons 3y agoFor me, both. I search for something generic, either an official manual, a bug report or a StackOverflow's answer pops up. I have a specific narrow question, I'm unable to google the answer, I ask, a more knowledgeable person appears and ties all the loose ends together in I way I have never thought of.
- ryanbrunner 3y agoThe problem is if you solve the problem of not needing the community by training an AI on community content, your community will leave and then you're out of training data. AI is impressive, but I'm unconvinced it can answer truly novel programming questions.
- bitL 3y agoSo he wants unpaid volunteers to do all the work to provide training data for some AI? What an MBAesque idea!
- 8note 3y agoA bunch of the comments seem to be of the opinion that "using LLMs in S/O" === "LLM answering questions" But that isn't the only task available for fancy auto-complete. Eg. The LLM could help novices make better questions, or include more/less context in an answer, with the person still being the arbiter of truth.
- mteam88 3y agoI have used LLMs before to understand broken English. Being able to read someones words without stopping every few lines is a major benefit to interlingual communication.
- KabaKun 3y agoOne of the biggest frustrations for people on SO is struggling to find a question that already exists - and then people get really angry when their question is closed as a duplicate... but what if the LLM could take proposed question text and point the person at an answered question so they don't even have to wait for an answer or a duplicate? It'd be much better than the current duplicate finder.
- kyleee 3y agoIt’s a tale as old as time; old school forums were/are constantly battling with people posting new threads trying to get them to use the search first. I am sure there are older internet examples as well Edit: I love your suggestion as well, any UI UX that helps surface existing relevant content to would be question askers is golden and very important
- geoduck14 3y ago>but what if the LLM could take proposed question text and point the person at an answered question so they don't even have to wait for an answer or a duplicate? Great suggestion!
- ryanwaggoner 3y agoHas there ever been a case of a company the size of SO deciding that, given their skills and culture, they’re just going to wind the company down rather than try and compete in a new technical arena that they’re entirely unsuited for? I’d respect that. I don’t know if what he’s suggesting here makes sense (I tend to think no), but I’m automatically a little skeptical of the typical response to a serious threat: “no way, y’all, this is actually good for us!” Imagine google coming out right now and saying the future of AI is search ads.
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- fabian2k 3y agoI would suspect that the company is too small to train their own LLM from scratch. But Stack Overflow probably has too much traffic to just pay for something like the ChatGPT API and built something on top of it. I'm not sure how many good options there are in between, can you realistically create your own LLM for this kind of specialized area without the kind of resources OpenAI/Google/Microsoft have?
- dzink 3y agoOnline discussion happens at the edge of what is known and that is where AI learns from. Yes, humans talking in a scrape-able way is needed for the future of AI, but there should really be some way for the teachers of AI to get compensated for their efforts in improving it. If Stack Overflow trains a model on contributor data it should not call the contributors community, but investors with proper compensation.
- ryanwaggoner 3y agoIt sounds like he’s suggesting that AI will open up a huge new pool of amateur developers, and those developers will need a community to turn to to know how to leverage AI. But that kinda ignores the impact that AI will have on the concept of the SO community, or whether they’ll even be a need for it. I honestly think his take is a misread of what kind of “community” SO has. My use of SO has always been 99% functional and borderline mercenary. I’m not getting to know anyone, I’m not building relationships, I just need a question answered. There’s nothing sticky about this community other than it being a good place to get those questions answered. As soon as AI can do that, I’ll never return to that “community”, and I’ll miss it as much as I miss Yahoo Answers.
- voz_ 3y agoThis guy is a wordcel, disregard him. He cannot rotate a cow in his mind.
- rtuin 3y agoI'm getting the point of the post, but confused to what it means for community/public SO. Is the essence really: "Please contribute manual qualitative solutions to public SO, so we can use it to train GenAI for our enterprise customers", or have I misread?
- bolanyo 3y agoI think this non-announcement is the preamble to trying to change the licensing of SO content in such a way that other organizations can't use it as training data, but SO can. Obviously such a move would outrage the SO userbase so they're flailing about trying to spin it as something to do with 'community'.
- jacooper 3y agoThat only works when ai training isnt considered fair use.
- dang 3y agoComments moved to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35604002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35604002, which has the original source and was posted earlier. Edit: since the current url has more information (as alecco pointed out downthread) I'm going to reverse this. Sorry everyone! I'm also going to edit the title to make it clear that it's not just the blog post but also the community discussion.
- em-bee 3y agoshouldn't the points for this post also be moved?
- dang 3y agoIt already loses the points it would have gained by staying on the front page. I don't want to rub salt in any wounds! There's definitely a better karma-sharing solution to be built here. One of these years we'll get to it.
- alecco 3y agoThis post had more interesting content: the rejection by the SO community and the diverse replies of big contributors.
- dang 3y agoAh - that makes a difference. Sorry! I'll see if I can fix this. Edit: ok, I've merged the thread back to the original submission and edited the title to clarify that it has more information than just the blog post. It's late, of course, but better than never I guess. Thanks for pointing this out!
- yeputons 3y agoHere is a discussion of the post at Stackexchange Meta: https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/388401/new-blog-post-from-our-ceo-prashanth-community-is-the-future-of-ai https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/388401/new-blog-pos... Some comments may refer to that discussion post instead of the original blog (e.g. ones talking about downvotes) because it was a separate submission to HN whose comments were moved to this page.
- gumballindie 3y ago"Just as tractors made farmers more productive, we believe these new generative AI tools are something all developers will need to use if they want to remain competitive." Yeah it also put a lot of them out of jobs. At least the tractor doesn't steal people's work to resell it, it's just a tool.
- collaborative 3y agoFunny thing I just realised I have contributed absolutely nothing to SO since ChatGPT came out. I wonder if others have done the same. I also wonder if open source zealots are enough to keep these regurgitators up-to-date or if their quality will decline as the dead internet approaches
- gumballindie 3y agoI am not updating or pushing any more code to my humble open source repositories, nor am i answering questions on reddit. If the plan is to put us out of jobs they can reingest their own content. Like the HUMANCENTiPAD.
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- gardenhedge 3y agoI love AI as a coding assistant but in the last few days ChatGPT4 has given me bug ridden code multiple times. edit: oops I left the tab open and this one got marked as a dupe in the mean time. Although this submission actually went to a different place..
- phpisthebest 3y ago>>Just as tractors made farmers more productive ... really, that is example used? If AI will do to development was tractors did to farming there is not going to be many developers left. >>today’s AI the potential for the loss of certain jobs, yes, but also, if history is a guide, a future in which a great variety of more highly skilled work Ag -> Industrial -> Information transitions were all supported by a mix of massive expansion in population, mass migration of populations, and globalization of economies information -> automation / AI transition does not seem to have these 3 things in the same way. Globalism is slowing or reversing into protectionism. Migration is still high but seemingly for different reasons (geopolitical) as people displaced for war, crime, or climate and critical for this discussion population growth as SLOWED way down, and it expected to reverse about 2040. This means people looking at the historical models for how these tech disruptions played out are very flawed in their "everything will be just fine because Farmers became factory workers, and factory workers became developers" Current economic models may not play out like they did in the past. History may rhyme, but it does not actually repeat. Also lets not forget the terrible way society in general handled these previous transitions that resulted is massive amounts of suffering for the people displaced. "Learn to AI" can not become the mantra of the day like "Learn to Code" did.... My prediction is we will see a MASSIVE increase in wealth gaps, and extreme decrease in standard of living in most of the industrial world (we are already seeing this in a limited way) leading to more and more political instability
- dahwolf 3y agoYep. Farm. Factory. Office. The end. There's nowhere to go, not for this amount of people. The idea that rather than losing jobs, it will compliment us and even enable millions of new "non-programmers" to start programming, I'm puzzled where this demand actually would come from? What would they even "build? And can you imagine the absolute nightmare of millions of people producing "code" with zero background in programming? In a sane world, this could be a humanitarian moment where we redirect our human capital to things of a less commercial nature, say human care. We don't live in that world though.
- troupe 3y ago
- Jupe 3y agoIn a way, Community may be the past of AI... Meaning the "Great Pause" [1] could happen, not by decree/law/agreement, but by people who will (out of self-preservation?) stop adding quality content to the free data sources that are SO, GitHub, etc. If ChatGPT and others end up "stuck" with data up to 2023, and the data afterwards are wacked-out conspiracy theories and SEO padded recipes, we may just end up with a "usefulness" limit of transformer AIs in general. [1] https://futureoflife.org/open-letter/pause-giant-ai-experiments/ https://futureoflife.org/open-letter/pause-giant-ai-experime...
- dahwolf 3y ago"Community is the future of AI" Comedy gold. So first AI takes content created by human labor without permission or compensation. Then it centralizes the sum of it and monetizes it exclusively. But wait, it gets better. You will now also supply your labor for free to fix/curate the current AI errors. Which will make the AI even better and more profitable, and yourself ever more obsolete over time. Picking our brains to create a giant private for-profit brain. Why would anybody willingly contribute to this scheme with their free time, in a backdrop where their own relevancy is at stake? There is no community without human incentives, every community will starve and die. You can extend this doom scenario to all open (web) content. More pragmatically speaking, StackOverflow is royally screwed. It was already on its way down for various reasons but this is a shock. AI coding assistants are rapidly spreading and improving, making it inevitable that programmers will have less need for a direct visit to SO over time. Worse, those actually keeping the site running is a small group of hardcore volunteers that you just alienated. The future is even more bleak for their enterprise product. Having your private copy of some data and training it for internal use is rapidly being commoditized. Many companies have a Microsoft contract, giving them (potential) access to Azure OpenAI that allows you to do just that. But that doesn't take it far enough and is just an intermediary step. Soon you'll simply point your enterprise AI at everything. Your Wiki, your documents, your SharePoint, your email. All of the companies' knowledge will be at your fingertips from any contextual UI, whether this is Word, Excel, Outlook or your code editor. And not just that, this enterprise intelligence will be combined with the world's intelligence. In such a future, would one seriously need a private copy of StackOverflow? The future I describe is about a year away.
- dahwolf 3y ago"It might be in the self-interest of each developer to simply turn to the AI for a quick answer, but unless we all continue contributing knowledge back to a shared, public platform, we risk a world in which knowledge is centralized inside the black box of AI models that require users to pay in order to access their services." A shared, public platform you say? The type of platform that AI will scan and train on? Therefore by contributing to such platform, you actively participate in AI centralization, no?
- gumballindie 3y agoAnd the sweat you put in can now be monetised even more efficiently. Think about it, once ai replaced us and we’ll all be unemployed, we’ll have nothing better to do than sit and post on SO to make these dudes rich.
- dahwolf 3y agoI assume the CEO is intentionally vague. He knows what's up. There's very few people whom enjoy interacting with SO, most just want to get to the answer. If AI code assistance has that answer, it's game over. Not even leeching SO would be attractive, let alone contributing.
- scottydog51834 3y agoI was hoping that the title "Community Is the Future of AI" would refer to the exciting community that's growing around Generative AI in SF. There was an awesome hackathon this past weekend and a fun networking event on Friday. "Cerebral Valley" (not sure if this is a company or an unofficial org of people from hacker houses) is a major (but certainly not the only) source of such events [1]. VCs, Twitter influencers, early-stage founders, and college grads have all been organizing other events, and so far, it's been a magical community (and hopefully this community is a net positive for the future of AI). [1] https://cerebralvalley.ai/ https://cerebralvalley.ai/
- kolinko 3y agoOh damn, I missed the hackathon, and I'm visiting the bay area for a short period of time only, and I ended up hacking by myself over the weekend :,) Where was that hackathon announced - I don't see it on the website? I would like to not miss the next one.
- moffkalast 3y ago> At Stack Overflow, we’ve had to sit down and ask ourselves some hard questions. What role do we have in the software community when users can ask a chatbot for help as easily as they can another person? How can our business adapt so that we continue to empower technologists to learn, share, and grow? Yes, why would one subject themselves to the toxic SO community when a bot can give you a tailored answer in seconds and doesn't close your question as duplicate.
- JoeJonathan 3y agoWhenever someone begins a piece with, “Throughout history,” you know it’ll be intellectual gold.
- kyleee 3y agoJust like all of my university essays
- throwaway420690 3y agoOpen AI assistants should really be implemented on open protocols with open payments. Nostr is a perfect protocol for that because of Zaps which can provide a strong alignment signal to the (various different) communities — not just white “western” men.
- suyash 3y agoStackOverflow has been sold to a private equity company in 2021. I doubt they care about community building, just using the community for their own profits: https://techcrunch.com/2021/06/02/stack-overflow-acquired-by-prosus-for-a-reported-1-8-billion/ https://techcrunch.com/2021/06/02/stack-overflow-acquired-by...
- jwie 3y agoThe whimper of the end.
- rootusrootus 3y agoHuh. The way I see SO and the future of AI is ... I don't. I don't bother looking at SO any more for the easy questions, I just use ChatGPT. It's not perfect, but neither is SO, and ChatGPT is faster and more polite. I still don't think ChatGPT is really coming for software engineers' jobs anytime soon, though. A high level programming language is about telling a computer exactly what you want as succinctly as possible. By the time you get specific enough with ChatGPT to produce said code, you could just write that code yourself. Without the non-deterministic behavior, too. But as a helper tool, it's remarkably useful.
- yunwal 3y agoIf your manager can assign you a Jira task with a 3 sentence description and get a reasonable result, what makes you think they can’t have the same interaction with an AI? Sure, it won’t be ChatGPT, it’ll be something else, but same thing.
- gumballindie 3y agoWhat’s with the fixation with comparing software to a human?
- yunwal 3y agoIn this case there’s nothing specific to humans that make us uniquely capable of completing an information task. It’s not like we’re talking about creating great art or something. There doesn’t have to be intent behind completing a spec in the most reasonable way possible.
- howon92 3y agoHonestly, I am not convinced and sense a bit of fear in the blog post. Is SO going to be obsolete?
- thenerdhead 3y agoThe Stack Overflow Sheriffs: “This town ain’t big enough for the two of us.”
- freddealmeida 3y agoI've been thinking of making a community in Japan for AI founders. I think we should all be conversing over a variety of thing and helping each other to succeed. There is some fear of colluding of of course, but we can put the right rails in place. AI is hard, sales is hard. We don't all need to compete. I wonder what you all think?
- dang 3y ago(In case anyone is confused, I've merged this thread back - see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35606010 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35606010 for details.)
- stackernews 3y ago[dead]