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A Mulching Proposal (2019)
- LargoLasskhyfv 4y agoLogan-Nolan Industries, eh? Anyways, mulching is too old-fashioned, thus they should consider https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_hydrolysis_(body_disposal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_hydrolysis_(body_disp... based on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_hydrolysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_hydrolysis Search for the sanctuary!
- revolvingocelot 4y ago"It is every citizen's final duty to go into the tanks and become one with all the people." --Chairman Sheng-ji Yang, "Ethics for Tomorrow"
- LargoLasskhyfv 4y agoOh, Alpha-Centauri. Didn't think of that. Thought of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan's_Run https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan's_Run instead. And maybe a bit of 'Soylent Green' ;-) Edit: I meant the movie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan%27s_Run_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan%27s_Run_(film) , the book(s) I've read much later only.
- h2odragon 4y ago2019. Hasn't spawned a billion dollar startup yet. There must be something wrong with the idea, or it'd have been commercialized by now.
- HopenHeyHi 4y agoIt lacks an adequate delivery system and recurring revenues. If we could construct some sort of machine to conveniently squeeze the slurry out of the packaging to spare our consumers the hassle you'd really be unto something. Top shelf industrial design. No funny business: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cp-BGQfpHQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cp-BGQfpHQ
- totetsu 4y agoI think this topic shifted from the realm of Satirical hypothesis into the real world about six months after is was published.
- kevviiinn 4y agoSacrifice the elders to the gods of the Economy!
- eurasiantiger 4y agoHail residential care!
- Animats 4y agoYes. It's called the "acceptable losses" approach to COVID.[1] [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2022/11/28/covid-who-is-dying/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2022/11/28/covid-who-i... [2] https://philadelphiaweekly.com/as-the-cdc-removes-mandates-we-must-all-fight-the-idea-of-acceptable-losses/ https://philadelphiaweekly.com/as-the-cdc-removes-mandates-w...
- RobotToaster 4y agoMaybe we can sell it as a way to turn granny into a NFT?
- pavlov 4y agoLast year some crypto-douche destroyed a Frida Kahlo artwork to turn it into an NFT: https://www.vice.com/en/article/aken7k/rida-kahlo-nft-mexico https://www.vice.com/en/article/aken7k/rida-kahlo-nft-mexico Mulching people for NFTs is the logical next step. Surely Andreessen Horowitz would fund the startup that gives grandma an eternal life as a web3 token while also contributing to solving the world’s food problem.
- eurasiantiger 4y agoEven if there is artistical merit to his performance, it is in poor taste, as using another artist’s work as-is as a part of a new artwork is generally frowned upon. Minting NFTs off the original is straight up thievery.
- HPsquared 4y agoHow about a person's genome encoded as an NFT?
- meindnoch 4y agoUkranian scientists are utilizing this technique to fertilize crops around Bakhmut with Russian-sourced organic slurry.
- DoreenMichele 4y agoCompared to A Modest Proposal, it's clearly second rate. Everyone knows the elderly are less nutritious than the young. Better nutrition is a critical element of making a better future.
- h2odragon 4y agoI'd be more worried about flavor and texture than nutrition. Old grandmas tend to be tough and chewy.
- bryanrasmussen 4y agowhat kind of barbarian dislikes beef jerky?!?
- michelpp 4y agoThe young are needed for slave labor and click farming, and you have to feed them something. Real food is for the rich.
- DoreenMichele 4y ago"We need their small fingers for certain tasks."
- adolph 4y agoBits are hard. As I understand it they are working to get regulatory approval in Canada, The Netherlands and China, where the some baseline sources have been established.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- classified 4y agoWhy does that remind me of Soylent Green?
- neilv 4y agoSoylent Green is mint chocolate! https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07T68WHWQ/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07T68WHWQ/
- neilv 4y agoThe title "A Mulching Proposal" references https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal
- cs702 4y agoOh, I missed that. Brilliant.
- dang 4y agoYes. We've reverted the title now - submitted title was "Algorithmic System for Turning the Elderly into High-Nutrient Slurry", which besides gutting the historical reference, gives way the joke and breaks the HN guidelines: "Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- version_five 4y agoIn the pdf article, the submitted title was in fact the subtitle. I can see an argument for choosing the subtitle like that when an article has the form Pithy phrase: subtitle that actually tells you something
- anigbrowl 4y agoEspecially given the lamentable academic fad for such titles, a la Stupid is good: capturing unwary readers' attention by exploiting incongruity'.
- dang 4y agoYup we often do that when the original title is inadequate (e.g. too baity or misleading). But the original title was fine here!
- anigbrowl 4y agoThe original submission title was much better, and doesn't give away the joke. This headline is part of the joke, but one that will cause it to be missed by many people. I don't think you should revert headlines so readily unless significant confusion/upset results. There's a lot of poorly-written headlines out there, and it's not uncommon to see a well-written article saddled with a terrible or tendentious headline.
- politelemon 4y agoAlso available in video presentation form: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11e_rpdf-Ck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11e_rpdf-Ck
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago"Fauxghee" is one of the best puns ever. I have a sneaking suspicion that they started with that pun and worked backwards.
- simplotek 4y agoFor the oblivious like me, what's the pun?
- ZeroGravitas 4y agoIn context: > Elderly volunteers (or "mulchees") are provided with generous payments for their families before being rendered down and recombined with other chemicals into a range of substitutes for common foodstuffs, including hash browns (Grandmash™), bananas (Nanas™) and butter (Fauxghee™). So one meaning is Faux Ghee (faux as in fake, Ghee as in a type of clarified butter, originating from South Asia) which follows the naming conventions of real substitute foods like Faux Turkey. And the second meaning is "Fogey" as in an old person.
- simplotek 4y agoThanks for the near-academic preciseness and clarity of your explanation. Puny!
- HopenHeyHi 4y agoFauxghee - I can't believe its not bubby!
- kerkeslager 4y agoBut... it is bubby...
- lisper 4y ago> Puny You meant "punny". Puny with one n means "small and weak".
- DueDilligence 4y ago[dead]
- helsinkiandrew 4y agoThe publicity image for the project (Fig 1, page 3) featuring Henry Kissinger is borderline genius: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1908.06166.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1908.06166.pdf
- rav 4y agoFor me, the best part is the pun in the subtitle: "Logan-Nolan Industries - Helping Humanity Make Ends Meat"
- neilv 4y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan%27s_Run https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan%27s_Run
- sitkack 4y agohttps://i.imgur.com/6QrNFRX.png https://i.imgur.com/6QrNFRX.png
- araes 4y agoBoth the Nolan and Kissinger inclusions appear to also be somewhat jokes / hidden references. Nolan - likely a reference to the Nolan Principles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_on_Standards_in_Public_Life#First_report,_1995 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_on_Standards_in_Publ...). The Seven Principles of Public Life - Selflessness, Integrity, Objectivity, Accountability, Openness, Honesty, and Leadership. Kissinger - Early life: Nazi Germany - "Germany of my youth had a great deal of order and very little justice; it was not the sort of place likely to inspire devotion to order in the abstract." Later Years: Lot of questionably ethical policies and behaviors during the Nixon administration, including one of the most contentious Nobel Peace Prizes in history, where two members left the Nobel Committee in protest, Lê Đức Thọ rejected the award saying there was no peace in Vietnam, and Kissinger attempted to return his award after the Fall of Saigon.
- SoylentYellow 4y agoI approve.
- cs702 4y agoThis parody is a brilliant take-down of the so-called FAT framework for making sure algorithms, including those powered by AI, are ethical. ("FAT" stands for making algorithms Fair, Accountable, and Transparent.) The authors show how FAT and other similar frameworks would fail to prevent the proposed launch of a new automated service for manufacturing different varieties of high-nutrient slurries: > Elderly volunteers (or "mulchees") are provided with generous payments for their families before being rendered down and recombined with other chemicals into a range of substitutes for common foodstuffs, including hash browns (Grandmash™), bananas (Nanas™) and butter (Fauxghee™). Go read the whole thing. It's horrifically funny.
- GartzenDeHaes 4y ago> Elderly volunteers (or "mulchees") are provided with generous payments for their families Seriously, I think there would be a lot of volunteers. There's already a high rate of suicide among the elderly. https://www.nature.com/articles/s43587-021-00160-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s43587-021-00160-1
- jvanderbot 4y agoOn whether ethical algorithmic frameworks can force ethical behavior: > Sometimes the problem is not how the sausage gets made, but that they’re making people into sausage.
- ttul 4y agoGPT-4 doesn’t get the humor: “The paper aims to apply the Fairness, Accountability, and Transparency (FAT) framework to this algorithmic system to ensure better ethical outcomes. However, given the nature of the proposed solution, researchers and practitioners should consider alternative approaches that respect the dignity of elderly individuals and maintain a more ethical stance when addressing food security and population ageing issues.” I then told GPT that the system was already in widespread use and was popular: “It is crucial to explore alternative, more ethical solutions to address food security and population ageing issues. This could involve investment in sustainable agriculture, technology to improve food production, and social policies that provide support to the elderly population and their families.”
- vrglvrglvrgl 4y ago[dead]
- dr_dshiv 4y agoWhat are the implications for AI alignment research?
- rexsteroxxy 4y agoWhy does everything have to be about AI these days?
- wrycoder 4y agoBecause it is?
- kmeisthax 4y agoIf the training objective isn't specified correctly, the AI might decide to mulch poor Irish children instead of old people. If the training distribution differs from the deployment distribution, the AI might attempt to mulch mannequins because they have two arms and two limbs.
- Metacelsus 4y agoI'd be worried about prions.
- kerkeslager 4y agoThis is satire, but if it were just a little less obvious satire, half of HN would be defending it as a good idea. Think Real Estate NFTs or payday loans done right. You guys are the butt of the joke and you're laughing because you're not in on it.
- friend_and_foe 4y agoI was going to get crabby with you right back and remind you that you're on HN too, but https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35588997#35590128 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35588997#35590128
- aziaziazi 4y agoSeriously, I’d love to be recycled one way or another. If a process like this happen to be legal somewhere I’ll probably volunteer to be part of it. I wonder how many thought about it, as when discussed openly the conversations tend to go to joking. From a safety POV we already eat processed food made from leftovers of fishes that eat chickens (leftovers) that eat porcs (leftovers)… or the other way around. From a moral consumer POV I would definitely enjoy more a food (plant or animal) feed from another human rests than feed from another livestock slavery facility. From a “consumed” POV, I won’t care less. I get there’s a lot of people with beliefs that think they can’t accept that. I may be downvoted for that : some decades ago, _a lot_ of people had the belief they “can’t live in a society with same sex mariage”. I respect the convictions of others as long as they don’t tell me what to do or not, especially when I’ll be dead.
- ixwt 4y agoThere is at least 1 state that allows human composting. You're turned into compost upon death, and then can be used in any number of ways your relatives see fit (or that you dictate in your will).
- sitkack 4y agoWhich happens to be the same state as the authors, Washington. https://recompose.life/2022/movement-to-change-state-funeral-laws-continues/ https://recompose.life/2022/movement-to-change-state-funeral... The current states are WA, CA, CO, OR, and VT.
- aziaziazi 4y agoThanks a lot ! Looks very promising, keen to see where it goes (the technique quand the exportation of it)
- mauvehaus 4y agoThe Full Vermonty podcast had an episode recently with a death doula and talked about some of the options in VT. It was worth a listen if you're interested in some of the options outside of the routine. https://www.thefullvermonty.com/episodes/tfv47 https://www.thefullvermonty.com/episodes/tfv47
- paulddraper 4y agoBetween this and A Modest Proposal, we'll have all the nutrients we could ever need.
- copymoro 4y ago[dead]
- bodhi_mind 4y agoSomewhat (not) related, my dog is nearing death and I’ve contemplated burying his body once he dies, planting a tree over the grave, then transplanting the tree to a pot and train it as a bonsai.
- jbuhbjlnjbn 4y agoSounds like an excellent story base for a future horror movie: the tree morphs back into the dog, but with strange, sinister superpowers. I'd watch it for sure.
- doubled112 4y agoAt that point, would its bark be worse than its bite? So sorry...
- anigbrowl 4y agoThis is an extremely inconsiderate response to someone talking about an imminent bereavement. Read the room.
- jbuhbjlnjbn 4y agoI disagree and think you are projecting your own emotion onto others and demand them to change their actions according to your emotions, which is an inconsiderate thing to do in general. The condescending tone is inappropriate, I meant no offense. Maybe the original poster appreciated a light-hearted joke? How would you know? "Read the room", yeah, that "reading" is very much subjective. You know the difference between compassion and pityfulness? I feel compassion to anyone losing their pets, I was in the same situation many times. But pity won't make it easier or better.
- copymoro 4y ago[dead]
- bannedbybros 4y ago[dead]
- webnrrd2k 4y agoThis is loosly based on Johnathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal", in wich he suggests eating poor children. It's well worth reading in it's own right. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal
- just_steve_h 4y agoAm I the only one disappointed to find that www.mulchme.com isn’t a site by the authors? (It redirects to a natural-fiber playground material supplier.)
- abeppu 4y agoThis is well written, but I'm not clear who this is really responding to. In particular, while there is plenty of work on fairness, accountability and transparency, has anyone actually seriously said that they are _sufficient_ for an automated system to be "ethical"? It seems that an actual claimed benefit of an automated system always rests on some prior notion of value, which this work deliberately ignores. Lampooning a position that no one has taken ("a FAT system must be ethical") is fun as a piece of writing but not especially useful as part of an ongoing conversation. I think talking about each of these FAT dimensions has been important because plenty of systems have been rushed out _without_ seriously considering any of them. I.e. we've seen facial recognition systems that do comparatively poorly on particular racial groups, accountability or even the ability to _speak_ to someone in the organization which developed an automated system may be totally absent, and _most_ commercial ML systems have basically no transparency. Highlighting the importance of these gaps is useful and constructive. But I don't think anyone has pretended that they capture all important ethical considerations. The US has a giant prison population. There are certainly biases and discrimination driving who gets put into it, and for how long. No one would say that just putting more rich white people in would "solve" the ethical problem even if it is more "fair". The planet has a carbon emission problem which will cause giant problems in future decades. The worst harms may be in the global south. Causing greater harm to rich and Western countries isn't "better", even if it's more fair. Arguably, extensive scientific evidence provides transparency into who/where is emitting carbon. And also arguably, our global emissions are highly accountable in that we can all choose to change our own behaviors, divest from companies which emit heavily, and in many countries vote for parties or politicians who promise to aggressively address emissions. No one believes that creating a giant stack of crises for the next several decades is "ethical". So yeah, well written take-down of that strawman. Good job.
- nopeNopeNooope 4y ago[dead]