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Why does it bother you that browsers have many features? At this point browsers are essentially a cross-platform VM and it really seems like this trend will onl

by saiojd 3y ago

Why does it bother you that browsers have many features? At this point browsers are essentially a cross-platform VM and it really seems like this trend will only accentuate in the future.

Dalewyn 3y ago
At some point we're going to have to drop the pretense of running an operating system underneath because the browser is the operating system.
- mpldr 3y ago
  Blink is my operating system and Linux is its bootloader.
  - chris37879 3y ago
    How’s chromeos treating you?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
mpldr 3y ago
https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=chromium https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=chromium https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=chrome https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=chrome https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=firefox https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=firefox https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=webkit https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=webkit Those are the main reasons. And seeing how browsers are essentially designed to run other peoples code with minimal to no vetting processes, I consider this a serious issue.
- kajaktum 3y ago
  So how is this any different if we don’t have a browser? People still want to visit “websites” which in your world is even worse. Because now every website is a distinct application (yikes!). The problem is that people are willing to run arbitrary code in the first place. How many times have _you_ as a developer, run arbitrary scripts from the internet? Blindly accepts packages that you have not vetted?
  - shrimp_emoji 3y ago
    Too many to count. Remember Flash? ;)
  - mpldr 3y ago
    I would be very different if browsers were tools to view documents though. I am not saying that browsers don't have a purpose. I just question that browsers should answer the question about what their scope is with a loud "yes!"
- saiojd 3y ago
  Thanks for sharing, that's interesting angle that I did not consider. So essentially the argument goes that more "surface area" == more vulnerabilities? While that makes perfect sense, don't you feel like the pressure for more feature comes from somewhere? By analogy, dynamic languages like JS/Python make the job of people writing the compiler much, much harder. But, on the whole and despite all their flaws, it is true that they increased productivity by a lot.
viraptor 3y ago
https://www.yubico.com/support/issue-rating-system/security-advisories/ysa-2018-02/ https://www.yubico.com/support/issue-rating-system/security-... Every new feature is more space for security issues to exist.
2h 3y ago
because I want limited scope tools. if I want something on the GPU, I can just write a native tool. I dont need the browser to do anything beyond web browsing.
- IlliOnato 3y ago
  Whatever features browsers have, it does not prevent you from writing native tools. But browsers don't limit themselves to serving your needs only, and they are not in the business of promoting your approach to computing among their users. Why would they?
  - account42 3y ago
    But it does prevent the browser from excelling at their original purpose: To browse the web. One example of many: Backspace no longer taking your to the previous page because that conflicts with usage in web apps.
    - IlliOnato 3y ago
      Yes, the browsers evolved very much beyond this original purpose. Again, it did not happen without any reason, it happened for a reason. The purposes the modern browsers serve apparently are more important to their users than that original purpose! Indeed, I believe there are obscure browsers that don't support any of this new stuff, and are only good for rendering plain old HTML. They remain obscure for the obvious reason: they cannot be used for what most people use the browsers most of the time.
- jazzyjackson 3y ago
  well you should have no problem implementing your own static web browser then, why complain about the binaries others are running?

by saiojd 3y ago

Why does it bother you that browsers have many features? At this point browsers are essentially a cross-platform VM and it really seems like this trend will only accentuate in the future.

Dalewyn 3y ago

At some point we're going to have to drop the pretense of running an operating system underneath because the browser is the operating system.

mpldr 3y ago
Blink is my operating system and Linux is its bootloader.
- chris37879 3y ago
  How’s chromeos treating you?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

mpldr 3y ago

https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=chromium https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=chromium https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=chrome https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=chrome https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=firefox https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=firefox https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=webkit https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=webkit Those are the main reasons. And seeing how browsers are essentially designed to run other peoples code with minimal to no vetting processes, I consider this a serious issue.

kajaktum 3y ago
So how is this any different if we don’t have a browser? People still want to visit “websites” which in your world is even worse. Because now every website is a distinct application (yikes!). The problem is that people are willing to run arbitrary code in the first place. How many times have _you_ as a developer, run arbitrary scripts from the internet? Blindly accepts packages that you have not vetted?
- shrimp_emoji 3y ago
  Too many to count. Remember Flash? ;)
- mpldr 3y ago
  I would be very different if browsers were tools to view documents though. I am not saying that browsers don't have a purpose. I just question that browsers should answer the question about what their scope is with a loud "yes!"
saiojd 3y ago
Thanks for sharing, that's interesting angle that I did not consider. So essentially the argument goes that more "surface area" == more vulnerabilities? While that makes perfect sense, don't you feel like the pressure for more feature comes from somewhere? By analogy, dynamic languages like JS/Python make the job of people writing the compiler much, much harder. But, on the whole and despite all their flaws, it is true that they increased productivity by a lot.

viraptor 3y ago

https://www.yubico.com/support/issue-rating-system/security-advisories/ysa-2018-02/ https://www.yubico.com/support/issue-rating-system/security-... Every new feature is more space for security issues to exist.

2h 3y ago

because I want limited scope tools. if I want something on the GPU, I can just write a native tool. I dont need the browser to do anything beyond web browsing.

IlliOnato 3y ago
Whatever features browsers have, it does not prevent you from writing native tools. But browsers don't limit themselves to serving your needs only, and they are not in the business of promoting your approach to computing among their users. Why would they?
- account42 3y ago
  But it does prevent the browser from excelling at their original purpose: To browse the web. One example of many: Backspace no longer taking your to the previous page because that conflicts with usage in web apps.
  - IlliOnato 3y ago
    Yes, the browsers evolved very much beyond this original purpose. Again, it did not happen without any reason, it happened for a reason. The purposes the modern browsers serve apparently are more important to their users than that original purpose! Indeed, I believe there are obscure browsers that don't support any of this new stuff, and are only good for rendering plain old HTML. They remain obscure for the obvious reason: they cannot be used for what most people use the browsers most of the time.
jazzyjackson 3y ago
well you should have no problem implementing your own static web browser then, why complain about the binaries others are running?