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> The practitioners of sokushinbutsu did not view this practice as an act of suicide, but rather as a form of further enlightenment.[14] At what point do we co

> The practitioners of sokushinbutsu did not view this practice as an act of suicide, but rather as a form of further enlightenment.[14] At what point do we consider this a mental illness rather than some higher ascent?

voakbasda 3y ago
While I agree this borders on the literally insane, that line of thinking starts down a slippery slope. At what point do we consider any religious beliefs that have deleterious effects on oneself to be mental illness? I still believe in self-determination, even if that determination leads to killing oneself.
- itisamentalill 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - voakbasda 3y ago
    Again, while I agree with this sentiment, I think self-determination should still win the day. It is far too easy to be labeled as mentally ill and be committed to unwanted treatment. That has been tried in the past, and it never ends well. If someone is mentally ill and refuses treatment, that needs to be respected, up to the point that their beliefs begin to cause harm to others. Of course, that conclusion begs further questions. Should unwelcome proselytizing be considered an attempt to do harm? Should it be permissible to indoctrinate children into religion? These are not easy questions to answer without grossly infringing some individuals' rights to free speech and religion.
- unethical_ban 3y ago
  Arbitrary societal consensus is how. It doesn't seem too wild to use irrational belief in something (faith) to make oneself happier through tough times. It does seem wild to spend your final days in a pit alone until you starve/dehydrate to death painfully.
  - throwawaymaths 3y ago
    Starvation is quite euphoric. After about three days of not eating I feel fantastic.
  - satellites 3y ago
    The trouble with arbitrary societal consensus is that it’s arbitrary. And not necessarily any wiser than an individual’s personal desires. These monks aren’t impulsively killing themselves, they seem to be towards the end of their lives anyway and are choosing how they want to go out. I don’t see what’s wrong with that. I might prefer to be in hospice hopped up on drugs when I pass, but I won’t claim to be morally superior for it.
- michaelmrose 3y ago
  > At what point do we consider any religious beliefs that have deleterious effects on oneself to be mental illness? Religion is basically always a socially acceptable mental illness that we not only tolerated but encouraged because it has been a part of civilization since before we formed the basic premises for what constitutes a civilization.
  - shrimp_emoji 3y ago
    It's perfectly normal to have imaginary friends (especially when you have no one else to help get you through rough times).
  - lazide 3y ago
    For any society to exist, we have to pick something to believe in. And anything we pick, will have contrary evidence or not make sense at least some of the time. That doesn’t make it an illness, unless it produces massively negative outcomes.
sillysaurusx 3y ago
It’s an interesting question. Personally I think the line is whether you’re harming anyone else. If someone wants to amputate their own hand, for example, it seems hard to argue that they shouldn’t be allowed to. But it does depend whether they’re mentally sound; you wouldn’t want to let someone who’s clearly suffering an illness do that. It’s… tricky. I try to err on the side of personal freedoms though.
- jrussino 3y ago
  > But it does depend whether they’re mentally sound Where we draw the line on "mentally sound" is a social construct, right? I can't really wrap my head around somebody wanting to amputate their own hand and at the same time being considered "mentally sound" by the people around them. > If someone wants to amputate their own hand, for example, it seems hard to argue that they shouldn’t be allowed to I just don't get this. I suppose it hinges on what you mean by "allowed to". Maybe there's an argument to be made around personal bodily autonomy, that as a society we decide we don't want the government to compel us not to do things like this? But if someone I loved expressed to me that they wanted to harm themself I would do whatever I could to convince them not to. If one of my kids tried to chop off their hand for no good reason I would do everything I could to prevent it.
  - chaps 3y ago
    Not saying this is a "good" reason, but there are indeed people who have decided this is what they want. There's a man who wanted his hand/wrist cut off so that his arm could be grafted in a way that turns his arm into crab-like claws.
gobengo 3y ago
> At what point do we consider this a mental illness usually when the patient complains or harms someone else, and not before
- hosh 3y ago
  Yeah. That indicates "mental illness" is not about the mental well-being of the person, but how much negative societal impact that person has with the people around them.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- hinkley 3y ago
  The old line about crazy people not worrying if they're crazy is not entirely accurate but a lack of self-reflection on your mental state is a pretty big givaway.
TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
What if you are mentally ill by not practicing this ritual and they were actually the normal ones?
- Dudeman112 3y ago
  "It" can't be normal by definition if only a handful of people were "it" in the whole history of mankind
hosh 3y ago
My understanding is that, after some realizations of impermanence, fundamental suffering, and no-self, something like this isn't insane. If anything, the way people treat themselves and others in ordinary life, the kind of mental gymnastics and self-inflicted anguish in "normal" society is the insanity.
- ep103 3y ago
  The most important philosophical lesson I've learned in life, is that it is important to take a step back once in a while (regularly!) and assess whether what you are doing in life genuinely appears to be good or bad at a very surface, kindergarten level, as a reality check. There are just too many times you read through people doing horrific things throughout history, and if you read enough you can understand the viewpoints and the cultures that drove those people do to those things, but at the end of the day, I can't help but feel like: "why can't people just, from time to time, take a step back and think: really though, do I think this is right?" and then truly be willing to make the changes necessary to their life's choices if the answer is: "No". It doesn't matter if it is something as obvious as being a member of the einsatzgruppen, or just realizing that you're spending too much time at work when you need to be home with your family (or vice versa). People don't seem to do this nearly enough, and I've found that generally, its a more important moral signifier than the deep and complicated ideologies we mentally build for ourselves that gets us into these situations. So no. Even if the moral ideology of these monks is crystal clear, perfectly logical, and rationally perfect, at the end of the day, they've chosen suicide over finding a way to enjoy life. They've failed the kindergarten morality test.
  - hosh 3y ago
    That's interesting you bring up this point, because it opens up a whole can of worms: - Why is suicide bad? - Why is there a presumption that this is your one and only life? - Why is there a presumption that life is made to be enjoyed? - Why is there a presumption that consciousness ends after life ends? - If death is inevitable, then couldn't suicide be broadly construed to pretty much ... just living? Believe it or not, these are thoroughly explored by monks and philosophers. Ironically, I think perhaps, you should take a step back and examine some of your own frame in looking at this. I'll start with this: there are more than one kind of motivation for ending one's own life. The most common one, which we call suicide, is usually done after giving up on life because there is overwhelming pain. There is a lively debate about this going on with regards to assisted suicide, including certain countries having passed legislation with state-funded assisted suicide. It's not that I agree with this kind of suicide, but rather, I think you are construing suicide far too broadly, conflating what the monks are doing with suicidal people overwhelmed with pain. What these monks are doing are not an attempt to kill themselves, because things are more difficult. If that were so, there would be no tradition of self-immolation. To give you a contrast, look at say, a modern -- still living -- teacher named Adyashanti. In the past year or so, he took a sabbatical from teaching due to his health condition, where he silently attends and lets his partner lead the teaching. And it may not seem like it when you hear him speak over the years, but he has been experiencing significant pain for years due to his ongoing health condition. It's the same realizations he has that allows him to carry on with his teaching despite experiencing that pain, as it does with the monks going through mummification or self-immolation.
deepfriedchokes 3y ago
If your ego is so large that you think you’re enlightened, you probably aren’t.
- brookst 3y ago
  Also if you don't think you're enlightened, you probably aren't.
- toxik 3y ago
  That’s what always bothered me about Plato’s cave.
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
    The idea of the cave is egotistical?
    - toxik 3y ago
      I thought it implied that Plato meant philosophers more truly see the things as they are and not their shadows, and that to me sounds a bit fancy.
      - mensetmanusman 3y ago
        It implies the existence of a mind/thoughts/etc. that transcend the material.
  - deepfriedchokes 3y ago
    It’s caves inside of caves all the way down.
Teever 3y ago
Is this better or worse than people cheering on contact sports like football or MMA where people get paid to suffer repeated traumatic brain injuries?
- deesep 3y ago
  As ridiculous as it sounds, Slap fighting[0] is a thing now. One slap fight contest lasted 27 rounds. [0]: https://slapfight.com/ https://slapfight.com/
detrites 3y ago
Or, is it mental illness to think death or suicide must be avoided at any and all cost? Death is inevitable and a natural part of the cycle of reality. Why should we care if someone's happy believing they ascend somewhere by suiciding? Someone could just as well believe that typing letters into a machine and waiting for more to appear from someone else you've never met on the other side of the world is a form of mental illness, or a type of spiritual suicide. Some people may believe the entirety of modern life and many of its trappings are a form of mass insanity. And who's to say they're wrong?
- B1FF_PSUVM 3y ago
  > a type of spiritual suicide Or putting other people's words in your brain could be considered somewhat icky ...
hluska 3y ago
The practice has been banned in Japan for 150 years.

voakbasda 3y ago

While I agree this borders on the literally insane, that line of thinking starts down a slippery slope. At what point do we consider any religious beliefs that have deleterious effects on oneself to be mental illness? I still believe in self-determination, even if that determination leads to killing oneself.

itisamentalill 3y ago
[flagged]
- voakbasda 3y ago
  Again, while I agree with this sentiment, I think self-determination should still win the day. It is far too easy to be labeled as mentally ill and be committed to unwanted treatment. That has been tried in the past, and it never ends well. If someone is mentally ill and refuses treatment, that needs to be respected, up to the point that their beliefs begin to cause harm to others. Of course, that conclusion begs further questions. Should unwelcome proselytizing be considered an attempt to do harm? Should it be permissible to indoctrinate children into religion? These are not easy questions to answer without grossly infringing some individuals' rights to free speech and religion.
unethical_ban 3y ago
Arbitrary societal consensus is how. It doesn't seem too wild to use irrational belief in something (faith) to make oneself happier through tough times. It does seem wild to spend your final days in a pit alone until you starve/dehydrate to death painfully.
- throwawaymaths 3y ago
  Starvation is quite euphoric. After about three days of not eating I feel fantastic.
- satellites 3y ago
  The trouble with arbitrary societal consensus is that it’s arbitrary. And not necessarily any wiser than an individual’s personal desires. These monks aren’t impulsively killing themselves, they seem to be towards the end of their lives anyway and are choosing how they want to go out. I don’t see what’s wrong with that. I might prefer to be in hospice hopped up on drugs when I pass, but I won’t claim to be morally superior for it.
michaelmrose 3y ago
> At what point do we consider any religious beliefs that have deleterious effects on oneself to be mental illness? Religion is basically always a socially acceptable mental illness that we not only tolerated but encouraged because it has been a part of civilization since before we formed the basic premises for what constitutes a civilization.
- shrimp_emoji 3y ago
  It's perfectly normal to have imaginary friends (especially when you have no one else to help get you through rough times).
- lazide 3y ago
  For any society to exist, we have to pick something to believe in. And anything we pick, will have contrary evidence or not make sense at least some of the time. That doesn’t make it an illness, unless it produces massively negative outcomes.

sillysaurusx 3y ago

It’s an interesting question. Personally I think the line is whether you’re harming anyone else. If someone wants to amputate their own hand, for example, it seems hard to argue that they shouldn’t be allowed to. But it does depend whether they’re mentally sound; you wouldn’t want to let someone who’s clearly suffering an illness do that. It’s… tricky. I try to err on the side of personal freedoms though.

jrussino 3y ago
> But it does depend whether they’re mentally sound Where we draw the line on "mentally sound" is a social construct, right? I can't really wrap my head around somebody wanting to amputate their own hand and at the same time being considered "mentally sound" by the people around them. > If someone wants to amputate their own hand, for example, it seems hard to argue that they shouldn’t be allowed to I just don't get this. I suppose it hinges on what you mean by "allowed to". Maybe there's an argument to be made around personal bodily autonomy, that as a society we decide we don't want the government to compel us not to do things like this? But if someone I loved expressed to me that they wanted to harm themself I would do whatever I could to convince them not to. If one of my kids tried to chop off their hand for no good reason I would do everything I could to prevent it.
- chaps 3y ago
  Not saying this is a "good" reason, but there are indeed people who have decided this is what they want. There's a man who wanted his hand/wrist cut off so that his arm could be grafted in a way that turns his arm into crab-like claws.

gobengo 3y ago

> At what point do we consider this a mental illness usually when the patient complains or harms someone else, and not before

hosh 3y ago
Yeah. That indicates "mental illness" is not about the mental well-being of the person, but how much negative societal impact that person has with the people around them.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
hinkley 3y ago
The old line about crazy people not worrying if they're crazy is not entirely accurate but a lack of self-reflection on your mental state is a pretty big givaway.

TheLoafOfBread 3y ago

What if you are mentally ill by not practicing this ritual and they were actually the normal ones?

Dudeman112 3y ago
"It" can't be normal by definition if only a handful of people were "it" in the whole history of mankind

hosh 3y ago

My understanding is that, after some realizations of impermanence, fundamental suffering, and no-self, something like this isn't insane. If anything, the way people treat themselves and others in ordinary life, the kind of mental gymnastics and self-inflicted anguish in "normal" society is the insanity.

ep103 3y ago
The most important philosophical lesson I've learned in life, is that it is important to take a step back once in a while (regularly!) and assess whether what you are doing in life genuinely appears to be good or bad at a very surface, kindergarten level, as a reality check. There are just too many times you read through people doing horrific things throughout history, and if you read enough you can understand the viewpoints and the cultures that drove those people do to those things, but at the end of the day, I can't help but feel like: "why can't people just, from time to time, take a step back and think: really though, do I think this is right?" and then truly be willing to make the changes necessary to their life's choices if the answer is: "No". It doesn't matter if it is something as obvious as being a member of the einsatzgruppen, or just realizing that you're spending too much time at work when you need to be home with your family (or vice versa). People don't seem to do this nearly enough, and I've found that generally, its a more important moral signifier than the deep and complicated ideologies we mentally build for ourselves that gets us into these situations. So no. Even if the moral ideology of these monks is crystal clear, perfectly logical, and rationally perfect, at the end of the day, they've chosen suicide over finding a way to enjoy life. They've failed the kindergarten morality test.
- hosh 3y ago
  That's interesting you bring up this point, because it opens up a whole can of worms: - Why is suicide bad? - Why is there a presumption that this is your one and only life? - Why is there a presumption that life is made to be enjoyed? - Why is there a presumption that consciousness ends after life ends? - If death is inevitable, then couldn't suicide be broadly construed to pretty much ... just living? Believe it or not, these are thoroughly explored by monks and philosophers. Ironically, I think perhaps, you should take a step back and examine some of your own frame in looking at this. I'll start with this: there are more than one kind of motivation for ending one's own life. The most common one, which we call suicide, is usually done after giving up on life because there is overwhelming pain. There is a lively debate about this going on with regards to assisted suicide, including certain countries having passed legislation with state-funded assisted suicide. It's not that I agree with this kind of suicide, but rather, I think you are construing suicide far too broadly, conflating what the monks are doing with suicidal people overwhelmed with pain. What these monks are doing are not an attempt to kill themselves, because things are more difficult. If that were so, there would be no tradition of self-immolation. To give you a contrast, look at say, a modern -- still living -- teacher named Adyashanti. In the past year or so, he took a sabbatical from teaching due to his health condition, where he silently attends and lets his partner lead the teaching. And it may not seem like it when you hear him speak over the years, but he has been experiencing significant pain for years due to his ongoing health condition. It's the same realizations he has that allows him to carry on with his teaching despite experiencing that pain, as it does with the monks going through mummification or self-immolation.

deepfriedchokes 3y ago

If your ego is so large that you think you’re enlightened, you probably aren’t.

brookst 3y ago
Also if you don't think you're enlightened, you probably aren't.
toxik 3y ago
That’s what always bothered me about Plato’s cave.
- mensetmanusman 3y ago
  The idea of the cave is egotistical?
  - toxik 3y ago
    I thought it implied that Plato meant philosophers more truly see the things as they are and not their shadows, and that to me sounds a bit fancy.
    - mensetmanusman 3y ago
      It implies the existence of a mind/thoughts/etc. that transcend the material.
- deepfriedchokes 3y ago
  It’s caves inside of caves all the way down.

Teever 3y ago

Is this better or worse than people cheering on contact sports like football or MMA where people get paid to suffer repeated traumatic brain injuries?

deesep 3y ago
As ridiculous as it sounds, Slap fighting[0] is a thing now. One slap fight contest lasted 27 rounds. [0]: https://slapfight.com/ https://slapfight.com/

detrites 3y ago

Or, is it mental illness to think death or suicide must be avoided at any and all cost? Death is inevitable and a natural part of the cycle of reality. Why should we care if someone's happy believing they ascend somewhere by suiciding? Someone could just as well believe that typing letters into a machine and waiting for more to appear from someone else you've never met on the other side of the world is a form of mental illness, or a type of spiritual suicide. Some people may believe the entirety of modern life and many of its trappings are a form of mass insanity. And who's to say they're wrong?

B1FF_PSUVM 3y ago
> a type of spiritual suicide Or putting other people's words in your brain could be considered somewhat icky ...

hluska 3y ago

The practice has been banned in Japan for 150 years.