22 ms·

There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

70 points by bitwise101 3y ago

pvarangot 3y ago
While not universal if you stay within Ryobi there's good compatibility among products.
- rgmerk 3y ago
  Sure, but it’s the most blatant piece of vendor lock-in since Apple.
  - pvarangot 3y ago
    Well but the other brands are even worse. Have you ever designed or worked with something with a battery? It's a big liability if the thing catches fire or explodes or doesn't charge up to full performance and it's not easy to design for inter-compatibility while still providing good after-customer service and remaining liable. Ryobi at least is standardized on two battery formats with I think 6 capacities among both and virtually all their products just use those except for the tiny ones that charge on a dock.
bradgessler 3y ago
I'm surprised the EU hasn't legislated something for this—seems like their cup of tea.
- tpmx 3y ago
  The Brussels EU big-wigs very likely don't use cordless power tools personally (unlike mobile phone chargers), so it will probably take a few more years until it reaches their radars. And then it's 50/50 if they'll do something smart or stupid about it. They will do something, though. Edit: There's also the financial interests of german companies like Festool, Bosch, Metabo, Stihl, Einhell. Imagine if they were forced to use a common battery format so that anyone could build a battery for their tools?
  - JohnCClarke 3y ago
    Had a quick look at the relative numbers. The original, 2014, directive aimed to eliminate 51,000 tones of e-waste annually [1]. That works out to about 0.11kg per-person annually. Currently the average EU citizen disposes of 0.74kg of "electrical tools and medical devices" annually. So you are correct that power tools and medical devices are a much bigger source of waste. If you are lucky enough to have an MEP represent you, do ask them why they are not addressing this also. [1] https://interferencetechnology.com/eu-radio-equipment-directive-require-universal-phone-charger/ https://interferencetechnology.com/eu-radio-equipment-direct... [2] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/20201208STO93325/e-waste-in-the-eu-facts-and-figures-infographic https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/202...
- pvarangot 3y ago
  They don't want to deal with up to three companies being liable if a battery explodes or catches fire. It's not easy to legislate. EV charging is already challenging enough.
silisili 3y ago
Mentioned in the comments, I looked into CAS a couple years back. Sounds great in theory, but it seems the vast majority of partners using it are for one off, specialty tools... https://www.cordless-alliance-system.com/ https://www.cordless-alliance-system.com/
- orthoxerox 3y ago
  Yes, it's basically Metabo plus lots of specialty tools companies that don't threaten but complement Metabo with their product ranges.
- rhinoceraptor 3y ago
  It's ironic, there's also a competing "standard" where Bosch licenses their batteries to smaller tool brands: https://www.ampshare.com/gb/en/ https://www.ampshare.com/gb/en/
h2odragon 3y ago
I want backpack battery packs for the bigger power users. Chainsaws and weed whackers and stuff in the gas engine range anyway. For smaller tools there could sensibly be a couple to 4? perhaps sizes of battery pack, "handheld" for screwdriver to toothbrush to "personal manipulation tools", a bit bigger for handheld drills; double that again for small saws and stuff... any bigger and it begins to become an an unwieldy burden just for the battery, and the tool becomes more sensible to power in other ways. Look at the standard AA, C, D cell sizes and what they did for the electronics market. Come up with a set of some standards and then go sell manufacturers on your package because of the profit opportunities it will offer them. Get some big battery cell manufacturer to back you, perhaps.
- roflyear 3y ago
  It'd be crazy expensive
  - s5300 3y ago
    Absolutely no reason for it to be. Friends & I in my hobby circle spotweld packs together for various power-tools, though I prefer putting the battery on a load bearing belt or dropleg panel over a backpack. We have a Dyson vacuum running with like 12 molicell p42a’s in it & it’s insane. Can suck on max setting for like 20 minutes, & even then motor overheating is a larger issue than running out of battery. Kweld & maletrics spot welders have turned making a custom Li-Ion/else pack into child’s play for the average person who’s turned a screwdriver in their life. Those two are a bit expensive, but older & clunkier spot welders can be found for extremely cheap at this point. They’re more than enough for making power tool packs for you & friends.
- taeric 3y ago
  The "egopower" vendor has some good products in this vein. I suspect others are catching up or passing them, but I've been very happy with the mower we have. The blower goes through the battery faster than anything else. But I'm very very grateful not to have gas in the garage for this. Even more grateful to no longer be mixing oil into gas to get these things to work.
halestock 3y ago
Vendor lock-in. If I buy a Makita drill that comes with a universal battery, I'm just as likely (all other things being equal) to buy a DeWalt or Milwaukee circular saw as another Makita. But if my drill batteries only work with Makita products, I have a big incentive to stick with that brand.
- okasaki 3y ago
  Yeah, same reason there's no universal lens mount for cameras, and lots of other examples.
  - rodgerd 3y ago
    There have been open and de-facto open mounts though: the Pentax K-mount was such pre-autofocus, and micro 43, Sony's E-mount (albeit with many strings attached), and the L-mount all have varying degrees of openness about them. At the end of the day, though, camera owners don't prioritise that enough in their purchasing decisions to change the market. People were happy to lock into highly proprietary mounts when Minolta developed autofocus (and migrated to the A-mount) and then Canon followed with their EF.
- dharmab 3y ago
  When I was younger and money was tighter, I needed a sawzall for a project and bought a DeWalt because they had a good price on a bundle. Many years later, my entire set is DeWalt because it was the convenient choice after I had two of their batteries. If I bought from scratch today I'd probably buy into Milwaukee, although the difference is small enough that I don't mind too much.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    This is exactly why the “starter sets” are such good deals, they know if they get you you’re unlikely to change. Milwaukee takes it a step further with the dual 12/18v chargers, because that would be a decision point that could make a switch - you could have all Dewalt 20V but nothing would stop you getting 12v Makita or whatever.
Rhapso 3y ago
If you have an angle grinder, quite a few premium/discount brand pairs become suddenly compatible with each other. Same batteries with different plastic bits to keep them incompatible. Remove the plastic bits and suddenly your black and decker battery fits into the porter cable device no problems.
version_five 3y ago
Vendor lock in is obviously a side effect, and there are consumer- hostile reasons why companies like proprietary batteries. But fundamentally the battery shape and power characteristics as well as the charging are still areas where companies can innovate and differentiate themselves. I'd rather have to choose a brand than get some out of date, un-ergonomic "approved" battery and connector that I have to use with my tools. It's fundamentally different than phone cables, where the shape of the connector doesn't really matter and was / is purely a lock-in. There are big differences between the choices the cordless tool manufacturers have made re batteries. It's certainly not a place for government mandates.
- Lio 3y ago
  What surprises me is that even within a single brand there are multiple standards. Right now I mostly have Bosch Professional 18v kit. If I want a small edging router I have to biy a while new Bosch Professional 12v kit… unless I go with the Bosch “amateur” system which is different again. I think there might also be another 10v Bosch Pro system as well. Why? It’s like an xkcd.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    12v used to be darn weak, but it’s much stronger now - M12 chainsaws aren’t complete jokes, for example. Usually the 12v line is focused on compact and lighter duty, 18/20v on bigger demanding tools. At least Milwaukee chargers can charge both, mostly.
  - rodgerd 3y ago
    > What surprises me is that even within a single brand there are multiple standards. It's kind of annoying, but less so if there's at least some logic to it. I can get pretty much everything I need as a shit-tier home handyman from Ryobi's 18V range, but if I were a more committed gardener or DIY I could imagine I'd want their 36V range as well. And then be irritated that the higher-power range only covers some tools. All that said it does seem like, I dunno, a relatively pointless complaint. Are there people who are that keen to mix and match their Bosch and Ryobi? It's all much of a muchness.
throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
The tool costs $100. The battery costs $100. The tools only work with the one battery, the batteries need replacing, and you need more of them to use multiple tools at once. It is about money. Money from batteries, money from vendor lock in. This isn't cynicism, it's economics. These companies would probably lose at least half of their profit, maybe much more, if they gave up the battery. And there's more reasons. If you want people to buy more tools (of course you do) you want to be able to phase out the old tools, and the best way to do that is a new incompatible battery. Or if you want to use a different voltage. Or if you want to ensure the battery won't set the tool on fire and cause returns or lawsuits. Or if you want to change the balance, or form factor, or something else.
- bombcar 3y ago
  I’ve never bought a battery. I assume someone somewhere does, but I have enough “free” ones that will last for a long time.
  - bjornasm 3y ago
    So you are saying that when you are going to buy a new tool you will stick to your brand - since you have lots of batteries you can buy the discounted tool that comes without one.
- SideQuark 3y ago
  I have several tools, thus several batteries, and never use them all at once. I have never in well over a decade had to replace a battery. And even though they changed battery tech, all the tools still work with batteries in both directions. They designed each new battery tech to do that. What tool system do you think has all the problems you listed?
ClassyJacket 3y ago
Becuase the EU hasn't had the balls to legislate this out of existence yet.
- tpmx 3y ago
  Wonder why? cough Germany
  - bombcar 3y ago
    Festool can’t even use the same battery across their tools (and even at the same voltage!) so there’s no way they could handle a standardized battery heh
    - tpmx 3y ago
      I wonder what kind of financial motive german manufacturers of cordless battery powered tools like Festool, Bosch, Metabo, Stihl, Einhell etc could have against a standardized battery format for cordless devices... Oh, and you know that like just like with Apple their first cry will be "but safety!" when/if they are forced to standardize/open up.
      - bombcar 3y ago
        A huge swath of tool brands are owned by Stanley Black and Decker (such as dewalt and craftsman and so on) and they can’t even match batteries across their own brands. A big part of the problem is ANY battery change even to a universal standard is a change away from your current customer base, which will annoy them.
glasss 3y ago
First time seeing this blog and it seems like they're trying too hard to give the benefit of doubt here. The list of concerns / drawbacks, particularly the reliability of performance concern, may be valid, but consumers deal with these already with every other battery powered device. A cheap USB charger or cable can dramatically effect your charging speed, a cheap AA battery may reduce your runtime, etc. It feels like the author is trying to not state the obvious that every comment here has pointed out - the batteries are lock ins, and expensive ones at that. For $100 I can buy modern electrical engineering marvels, or a run of the mill battery from Milwaukee. Or just a battery charger. It is this industry's way of making profits until they get regulated / legislated into being more consumer friendly, because I doubt they will do it on their own.
- StrangeATractor 3y ago
  This isn't a secret in construction, you buy one brand of cordless tools and stick with it. DeWalt sells tools so cheap you wonder if they're a loss leader. A single battery (one of the big 60V, 12Ah ones you use for circular saws and angle grinders) is $285 on Amazon. The biggest cordless circular is $178, the biggest grinder is $163. You'll want at least two of those batteries per day if you're doing any serious work. The real pain is when they they change the battery's interface, which will happen every so often. They stop selling the older stuff and eventually you'll have to upgrade and buy the whole product line all over again.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    It's not quite as cut and dried as that, but it's getting closer as the brands expand. My contractor friend would refer to various tools as the "Brand" because he had one cordless tool from that brand because they had the one he needed. "Go grab the Makita", that kind of thing. From my experience it's the prosumer market that gets really rabid about their tool color. Do NOT cross the Red Army!
    - StrangeATractor 3y ago
      There are exceptions depending on what you're doing, but generally speaking 95% of your cordless tools will be one brand.
jedberg 3y ago
I think we as a society used to be much better at standards. Companies realized the value of having standardized components and connectors. Like, why don't we have a standard for wireless connections to a TV? We have a standard for hardwire connections (HDMI) that is pretty much universal now. But why not a wireless HDMI? Why can't we make it easy for anyone with a laptop to connect to a TV as a remote display? Companies these days would rather make money from their proprietary connectors and equipment instead of possibly making consumer's lives a little easier and maybe even getting more customers because they are cross compatible.
tamaharbor 3y ago
Why is there no univeral EV plug?
fwungy 3y ago
Corded tools have more power and are cheaper. Cordless is more convenient but way more expensive when you add in batteries, especially for power intensive tools like grinders.
NotYourLawyer 3y ago
As Charlie Munger says “show me the incentives, and I will show you the outcome.” There’s no question why different manufacturers use different batteries.
bombcar 3y ago
Here’s the reality. The batteries are standardized- inside. They’re all variations on the standard cell and I’ve yet to see a “cheap knockoff” battery that performs like the “professional brands”.
buescher 3y ago
It's probably a patent minefield, too.
ma_advertising 3y ago
I'm here for the comments that try to explain how capitalism and free markets are ok even if they create monopolies
1970-01-01 3y ago
Ryobi tools have designed interchangeable "ONE+" batteries for over 20 years. Any of their 18V cordless tools from 2003 or so will have 110% compatibility (some "blue" tools show MORE power output from when they were new). Sure, this is not "universal" interchangeability. However, it's so close to what's being asked that I'm wondering why decades of interchangeability and backwards compatibility are ignored by this author. Video showing off Ryobi's backwards compatibility: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1aCxBdDcsU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1aCxBdDcsU
Overtonwindow 3y ago
It's like Apple, proprietary equals money.
mrtweetyhack 3y ago
[dead]
1970-01-01 3y ago
You can find adapters to attach one popular brand's battery to another's on eBay. Examples in store: https://www.ebay.com/str/xtools88 https://www.ebay.com/str/xtools88
RecycledEle 3y ago
Standard DC power connectors are long overdue. Let me suggest a few: * USB-C (type A and type C) (but simplify the voltage selection and change the spec so it just supplies as many amps as it can) * 12V 5.5x2.1mm barrel connectors * 12V car accessory outlets * 12V battery terminals * 19V Dell laptop power connectors * 48V Power Poles (originally made by Anderson) in various amperages Lithium, rechargeable batteries should also be standardized: * Nokia 1100 prismatic cell (still used in many wireless peripherals, and could work well in almost all A/V remote controls) * 4AH lithium prismatic cell (for most cell phones) * 18650 (single cell) * 2-cell 18650 pack (pick any power tool battery and use that) * 4-cell devices should use a pair of the 2-cell 18650 packs. Black and Decker made VPX power tools that did that many years ago. * 5-cell lithium pack (maybe 18650 cells) Pick any power tool battery that has a flat top, meaning not my beloved Ryobi and use that. Then everyone can make adapters that add 1/2" to the height of the battery. * 40V lithium battery pack (pick any one of the electric lawnmower types that can handle a lot fo amps and use that) * Car-scale battery packs that are about 1 cubic foot, so that many of them can power your home or automobile
theshrike79 3y ago
Protip, you can order converters from pretty much any power tool battery to any other brand from Aliexpress (or from a reseller/dropshipper on Amazon/eBay). I sold all my Ryobi stuff except for their air compressor and switched to AEG. Bought an AEG->Ryobi adapter for, I think, 10€ and it works just fine with the Ryobi compressor.
oliwarner 3y ago
Capitalism. Let's not waste a thousand words when one will do. It's really that simple. All these batteries are just 18/36/54 Volt configurations of 18650 cells (with a few exceptions). Some have $0.50 undercharge management chips, some don't. The difference is the mounts and pinouts and they are only distinctive to avoid interoperability. They do this to keep you brand-loyal. As soon as you buy a kit (eg driver, drill, battery and charger) for a knock down rate you're much more likely to buy other "bare" tools from the same range because they're compatible with the expensive battery you've just bought. It's cheaper to stay loyal. As soon as you go pro, that loyalty is magnified because you need multiple batteries ready to go. Owning and charging that redundancy across multiple platforms is a lot of overhead. They could all use the same batteries and chargers. They choose not to. Bosch has made a common platform (now called AMPShare?) but the buy-in is limited (mostly smaller, mostly German toolmakers) and Bosch seems to do best out of this, but it's a start.
rasz 3y ago
Its more than brand lock in, its market segmentation. POWER TOOL MANUFACTURERS AND WHO REALLY OWNS THEM https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-owns-them/ https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-... TTI owns Milwaukee, Ridgid, Ryobi. Cant swap batteries between them despite all coming from same factory. Stanleyblackanddecker is Craftsman, Stanley, Proto, Irwin, MAC, Bostitch, DeWalt, the list goes on and on. Its pure comedy. There are some rare cases where they share same design in different regions https://www.reddit.com/r/Tools/comments/104pndo/yes_theyre_100_compatible_craftsman_sold_in_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Tools/comments/104pndo/yes_theyre_1... but other than that they pull pranks like same injection molding with same pin shape but switched polarity!
jfengel 3y ago
I was tickled the other day to discover that Makita also makes a coffee maker that uses their batteries. It's a nifty gimmick to get you to use Makita-branded products on the job site. https://www.makitatools.com/products/details/DCM501Z https://www.makitatools.com/products/details/DCM501Z (They also offer a kettle and a cooler, and other things that are useful on a job site but not conventionally "tools".)
- willcipriano 3y ago
  Down the same road Coleman makes a propane coffee maker. https://www.amazon.com/Coleman-QuikPot-Propane-Coffee-Maker/dp/B004E4IAEQ https://www.amazon.com/Coleman-QuikPot-Propane-Coffee-Maker/...
exabrial 3y ago
Vendor lockin is why. These things are expensive, but they're not a pure profit center as one thinks.... Most tool batteries just wrap high quality LG Chem 18650s. I don't know the wholesale price, but since they're roughly $4-$5 at retail, lets say 8x @ $3 wholesale. Then you have electronics bom/assembly (generous $10) and casing/asembly ($2) and labor ($1) for a total of $37. Following the "Double your cost and charge that rule" = $74 I made my estimate before looking up the cost of batteries, but Ryobi (Owned by TTI, same people that make Milwaukee hilariously) falls around that price point as do others. So the prices, while seemingly ginormous, aren't as absurd as one thinks. 18650 LiOn prices are insane. DeWalt (Owned by Stanley Black & Decker) is now creating tool batteries that use flat cells (called "Pouch Batteries"), which honestly, makes _a lot_ more sense. Square tool batteries = square batteries = more mAh per unit volume. No idea why don't use these in BE-EVs.
- mindslight 3y ago
  It's definitely vendor lockin. Sometimes the straightforward answer really is the right one. As you said, Ryboi and Mikwaukee have the same owner, along with Ridgid [0]. They could have easily made batteries work across brands, and even added caveats to their marketing that your Milwaukee tools won't have full performance with Ryobi batteries (etc). But they didn't - because once someone buys into an ecosystem they get a strong affinity to continue buying in, rather than saving money and buying a less expensive tool that they need less. Market decommodification generally increases margins. The main draw for the lockin, at least in my experience, is wanting a good supply of batteries to not run out in the middle of something. Whereas if I had many different color tools and one or two batteries for each color, then I'd have to be much more attentive to keeping them charged. Personally I bought into Dewalt - the trigger on their driver felt smoother. Then Dewalt 60V - the tool I wanted had good reviews and I can use the batteries in 20V tools for longer yard work, etc. My one deviation has been the Ryobi powered PEX cincher, for which Dewalt or anybody else didn't seem to have a comparable one. I bought it as a bare tool and added a Dewalt->Ryobi battery adapter. Occasionally I'll see more Ryobi stuff at great prices and be tempted, but I ask myself if I really need it, given that it's probably "less powerful" (half marketing, half truth) and the balance would be off (due to the adapter). Meanwhile a sale on a Dewalt tool that will make my life easier feels like a no brainer, due to already having the "proper" batteries. The main churn-gimmick I've managed to resist is buying cordless tools when corded ones suffice for the type of job. Like if I'm needing a palm sander, I'm probably working on a longer term project and it makes sense to run an extension cord, rather than needing to occasionally do a few minutes of sanding at a time. Although I admit that calculus might be different if I didn't literally have more corded power tools than I know what to do with. [0] https://toolguyd.com/tool-brands-corporate-affiliations/ https://toolguyd.com/tool-brands-corporate-affiliations/
cityofdelusion 3y ago
There's no universal cordless power tool battery because the primary industry (construction) just doesn't care. Guys just buy whatever brand they are locked into and do the job. One-off tools or tools where one brand is just way better tend to be both corded and ran off a generator.
dave333 3y ago
Seems like there would be a market for a universal adapter that accepts all the different batteries and plugs into all the tools - or at least several of the major brands. Kind of like an octopus cable but with some additional straps to let you bundle the whole thing with whatever tool compactly. Probably the adapters would infringe on everyone's patents or copyright or whatever or someone would have done it.
- StueyGuyd 3y ago
  The challenge with adapters is that different batteries communicate different things to a tool, such as internal temperature, in different ways. You cannot just connect + to + and - to -. What could work is a battery with a new standardized interface, and modular adapters that can match different brands' tool interfaces. Over the years, maybe some brands might develop tools that mate directly to the universal battery. But now there are 18V/20V Max, 24V Max, 36V/40V Max, and 54V/60V Max cordless systems. There's no practical solution for this.
westurner 3y ago
From "USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27295621 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27295621 : > What are the costs to add a USB PD module to an electronic device? https://hackaday.com/2021/04/21/easy-usb%E2%80%91c-power-for-all-your-devices/ https://hackaday.com/2021/04/21/easy-usb%E2%80%91c-power-for... > - [ ] Create an industry standard interface for charging and using [power tool,] battery packs; and adapters From "Zero energy ready homes are coming" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35065366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35065366 : # USB power specs (DC) 7.5w = 1.5amp * 5volts # USB 15w = 3a * 5v # USB-C 100w = 5a * 20v # USB-C PD 240w = 5a * 48v # USB-C PD 3.1 Others could also send emails to power tool manufacturers about USB-C PD support and evolving the spec to support power tool battery packs.
- andromeduck 3y ago
  Anything but USB-C.
  - westurner 3y ago
    Hopefully the counter-proposal doesn't involve a custom barrel jack, eh?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

70 points by bitwise101 3y ago

pvarangot 3y ago

While not universal if you stay within Ryobi there's good compatibility among products.

rgmerk 3y ago
Sure, but it’s the most blatant piece of vendor lock-in since Apple.
- pvarangot 3y ago
  Well but the other brands are even worse. Have you ever designed or worked with something with a battery? It's a big liability if the thing catches fire or explodes or doesn't charge up to full performance and it's not easy to design for inter-compatibility while still providing good after-customer service and remaining liable. Ryobi at least is standardized on two battery formats with I think 6 capacities among both and virtually all their products just use those except for the tiny ones that charge on a dock.

bradgessler 3y ago

I'm surprised the EU hasn't legislated something for this—seems like their cup of tea.

tpmx 3y ago
The Brussels EU big-wigs very likely don't use cordless power tools personally (unlike mobile phone chargers), so it will probably take a few more years until it reaches their radars. And then it's 50/50 if they'll do something smart or stupid about it. They will do something, though. Edit: There's also the financial interests of german companies like Festool, Bosch, Metabo, Stihl, Einhell. Imagine if they were forced to use a common battery format so that anyone could build a battery for their tools?
- JohnCClarke 3y ago
  Had a quick look at the relative numbers. The original, 2014, directive aimed to eliminate 51,000 tones of e-waste annually [1]. That works out to about 0.11kg per-person annually. Currently the average EU citizen disposes of 0.74kg of "electrical tools and medical devices" annually. So you are correct that power tools and medical devices are a much bigger source of waste. If you are lucky enough to have an MEP represent you, do ask them why they are not addressing this also. [1] https://interferencetechnology.com/eu-radio-equipment-directive-require-universal-phone-charger/ https://interferencetechnology.com/eu-radio-equipment-direct... [2] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/20201208STO93325/e-waste-in-the-eu-facts-and-figures-infographic https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/202...
pvarangot 3y ago
They don't want to deal with up to three companies being liable if a battery explodes or catches fire. It's not easy to legislate. EV charging is already challenging enough.

silisili 3y ago

Mentioned in the comments, I looked into CAS a couple years back. Sounds great in theory, but it seems the vast majority of partners using it are for one off, specialty tools... https://www.cordless-alliance-system.com/ https://www.cordless-alliance-system.com/

orthoxerox 3y ago
Yes, it's basically Metabo plus lots of specialty tools companies that don't threaten but complement Metabo with their product ranges.
rhinoceraptor 3y ago
It's ironic, there's also a competing "standard" where Bosch licenses their batteries to smaller tool brands: https://www.ampshare.com/gb/en/ https://www.ampshare.com/gb/en/

h2odragon 3y ago

I want backpack battery packs for the bigger power users. Chainsaws and weed whackers and stuff in the gas engine range anyway. For smaller tools there could sensibly be a couple to 4? perhaps sizes of battery pack, "handheld" for screwdriver to toothbrush to "personal manipulation tools", a bit bigger for handheld drills; double that again for small saws and stuff... any bigger and it begins to become an an unwieldy burden just for the battery, and the tool becomes more sensible to power in other ways. Look at the standard AA, C, D cell sizes and what they did for the electronics market. Come up with a set of some standards and then go sell manufacturers on your package because of the profit opportunities it will offer them. Get some big battery cell manufacturer to back you, perhaps.

roflyear 3y ago
It'd be crazy expensive
- s5300 3y ago
  Absolutely no reason for it to be. Friends & I in my hobby circle spotweld packs together for various power-tools, though I prefer putting the battery on a load bearing belt or dropleg panel over a backpack. We have a Dyson vacuum running with like 12 molicell p42a’s in it & it’s insane. Can suck on max setting for like 20 minutes, & even then motor overheating is a larger issue than running out of battery. Kweld & maletrics spot welders have turned making a custom Li-Ion/else pack into child’s play for the average person who’s turned a screwdriver in their life. Those two are a bit expensive, but older & clunkier spot welders can be found for extremely cheap at this point. They’re more than enough for making power tool packs for you & friends.
taeric 3y ago
The "egopower" vendor has some good products in this vein. I suspect others are catching up or passing them, but I've been very happy with the mower we have. The blower goes through the battery faster than anything else. But I'm very very grateful not to have gas in the garage for this. Even more grateful to no longer be mixing oil into gas to get these things to work.

halestock 3y ago

Vendor lock-in. If I buy a Makita drill that comes with a universal battery, I'm just as likely (all other things being equal) to buy a DeWalt or Milwaukee circular saw as another Makita. But if my drill batteries only work with Makita products, I have a big incentive to stick with that brand.

okasaki 3y ago
Yeah, same reason there's no universal lens mount for cameras, and lots of other examples.
- rodgerd 3y ago
  There have been open and de-facto open mounts though: the Pentax K-mount was such pre-autofocus, and micro 43, Sony's E-mount (albeit with many strings attached), and the L-mount all have varying degrees of openness about them. At the end of the day, though, camera owners don't prioritise that enough in their purchasing decisions to change the market. People were happy to lock into highly proprietary mounts when Minolta developed autofocus (and migrated to the A-mount) and then Canon followed with their EF.
dharmab 3y ago
When I was younger and money was tighter, I needed a sawzall for a project and bought a DeWalt because they had a good price on a bundle. Many years later, my entire set is DeWalt because it was the convenient choice after I had two of their batteries. If I bought from scratch today I'd probably buy into Milwaukee, although the difference is small enough that I don't mind too much.
- bombcar 3y ago
  This is exactly why the “starter sets” are such good deals, they know if they get you you’re unlikely to change. Milwaukee takes it a step further with the dual 12/18v chargers, because that would be a decision point that could make a switch - you could have all Dewalt 20V but nothing would stop you getting 12v Makita or whatever.

Rhapso 3y ago

If you have an angle grinder, quite a few premium/discount brand pairs become suddenly compatible with each other. Same batteries with different plastic bits to keep them incompatible. Remove the plastic bits and suddenly your black and decker battery fits into the porter cable device no problems.

version_five 3y ago

Vendor lock in is obviously a side effect, and there are consumer- hostile reasons why companies like proprietary batteries. But fundamentally the battery shape and power characteristics as well as the charging are still areas where companies can innovate and differentiate themselves. I'd rather have to choose a brand than get some out of date, un-ergonomic "approved" battery and connector that I have to use with my tools. It's fundamentally different than phone cables, where the shape of the connector doesn't really matter and was / is purely a lock-in. There are big differences between the choices the cordless tool manufacturers have made re batteries. It's certainly not a place for government mandates.

Lio 3y ago
What surprises me is that even within a single brand there are multiple standards. Right now I mostly have Bosch Professional 18v kit. If I want a small edging router I have to biy a while new Bosch Professional 12v kit… unless I go with the Bosch “amateur” system which is different again. I think there might also be another 10v Bosch Pro system as well. Why? It’s like an xkcd.
- bombcar 3y ago
  12v used to be darn weak, but it’s much stronger now - M12 chainsaws aren’t complete jokes, for example. Usually the 12v line is focused on compact and lighter duty, 18/20v on bigger demanding tools. At least Milwaukee chargers can charge both, mostly.
- rodgerd 3y ago
  > What surprises me is that even within a single brand there are multiple standards. It's kind of annoying, but less so if there's at least some logic to it. I can get pretty much everything I need as a shit-tier home handyman from Ryobi's 18V range, but if I were a more committed gardener or DIY I could imagine I'd want their 36V range as well. And then be irritated that the higher-power range only covers some tools. All that said it does seem like, I dunno, a relatively pointless complaint. Are there people who are that keen to mix and match their Bosch and Ryobi? It's all much of a muchness.

throwawaaarrgh 3y ago

The tool costs $100. The battery costs $100. The tools only work with the one battery, the batteries need replacing, and you need more of them to use multiple tools at once. It is about money. Money from batteries, money from vendor lock in. This isn't cynicism, it's economics. These companies would probably lose at least half of their profit, maybe much more, if they gave up the battery. And there's more reasons. If you want people to buy more tools (of course you do) you want to be able to phase out the old tools, and the best way to do that is a new incompatible battery. Or if you want to use a different voltage. Or if you want to ensure the battery won't set the tool on fire and cause returns or lawsuits. Or if you want to change the balance, or form factor, or something else.

bombcar 3y ago
I’ve never bought a battery. I assume someone somewhere does, but I have enough “free” ones that will last for a long time.
- bjornasm 3y ago
  So you are saying that when you are going to buy a new tool you will stick to your brand - since you have lots of batteries you can buy the discounted tool that comes without one.
SideQuark 3y ago
I have several tools, thus several batteries, and never use them all at once. I have never in well over a decade had to replace a battery. And even though they changed battery tech, all the tools still work with batteries in both directions. They designed each new battery tech to do that. What tool system do you think has all the problems you listed?

ClassyJacket 3y ago

Becuase the EU hasn't had the balls to legislate this out of existence yet.

tpmx 3y ago
Wonder why? cough Germany
- bombcar 3y ago
  Festool can’t even use the same battery across their tools (and even at the same voltage!) so there’s no way they could handle a standardized battery heh
  - tpmx 3y ago
    I wonder what kind of financial motive german manufacturers of cordless battery powered tools like Festool, Bosch, Metabo, Stihl, Einhell etc could have against a standardized battery format for cordless devices... Oh, and you know that like just like with Apple their first cry will be "but safety!" when/if they are forced to standardize/open up.
    - bombcar 3y ago
      A huge swath of tool brands are owned by Stanley Black and Decker (such as dewalt and craftsman and so on) and they can’t even match batteries across their own brands. A big part of the problem is ANY battery change even to a universal standard is a change away from your current customer base, which will annoy them.

glasss 3y ago

First time seeing this blog and it seems like they're trying too hard to give the benefit of doubt here. The list of concerns / drawbacks, particularly the reliability of performance concern, may be valid, but consumers deal with these already with every other battery powered device. A cheap USB charger or cable can dramatically effect your charging speed, a cheap AA battery may reduce your runtime, etc. It feels like the author is trying to not state the obvious that every comment here has pointed out - the batteries are lock ins, and expensive ones at that. For $100 I can buy modern electrical engineering marvels, or a run of the mill battery from Milwaukee. Or just a battery charger. It is this industry's way of making profits until they get regulated / legislated into being more consumer friendly, because I doubt they will do it on their own.

StrangeATractor 3y ago
This isn't a secret in construction, you buy one brand of cordless tools and stick with it. DeWalt sells tools so cheap you wonder if they're a loss leader. A single battery (one of the big 60V, 12Ah ones you use for circular saws and angle grinders) is $285 on Amazon. The biggest cordless circular is $178, the biggest grinder is $163. You'll want at least two of those batteries per day if you're doing any serious work. The real pain is when they they change the battery's interface, which will happen every so often. They stop selling the older stuff and eventually you'll have to upgrade and buy the whole product line all over again.
- bombcar 3y ago
  It's not quite as cut and dried as that, but it's getting closer as the brands expand. My contractor friend would refer to various tools as the "Brand" because he had one cordless tool from that brand because they had the one he needed. "Go grab the Makita", that kind of thing. From my experience it's the prosumer market that gets really rabid about their tool color. Do NOT cross the Red Army!
  - StrangeATractor 3y ago
    There are exceptions depending on what you're doing, but generally speaking 95% of your cordless tools will be one brand.

jedberg 3y ago

I think we as a society used to be much better at standards. Companies realized the value of having standardized components and connectors. Like, why don't we have a standard for wireless connections to a TV? We have a standard for hardwire connections (HDMI) that is pretty much universal now. But why not a wireless HDMI? Why can't we make it easy for anyone with a laptop to connect to a TV as a remote display? Companies these days would rather make money from their proprietary connectors and equipment instead of possibly making consumer's lives a little easier and maybe even getting more customers because they are cross compatible.

tamaharbor 3y ago

Why is there no univeral EV plug?

fwungy 3y ago

Corded tools have more power and are cheaper. Cordless is more convenient but way more expensive when you add in batteries, especially for power intensive tools like grinders.

NotYourLawyer 3y ago

As Charlie Munger says “show me the incentives, and I will show you the outcome.” There’s no question why different manufacturers use different batteries.

bombcar 3y ago

Here’s the reality. The batteries are standardized- inside. They’re all variations on the standard cell and I’ve yet to see a “cheap knockoff” battery that performs like the “professional brands”.

buescher 3y ago

It's probably a patent minefield, too.

ma_advertising 3y ago

I'm here for the comments that try to explain how capitalism and free markets are ok even if they create monopolies

1970-01-01 3y ago

Ryobi tools have designed interchangeable "ONE+" batteries for over 20 years. Any of their 18V cordless tools from 2003 or so will have 110% compatibility (some "blue" tools show MORE power output from when they were new). Sure, this is not "universal" interchangeability. However, it's so close to what's being asked that I'm wondering why decades of interchangeability and backwards compatibility are ignored by this author. Video showing off Ryobi's backwards compatibility: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1aCxBdDcsU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1aCxBdDcsU

Overtonwindow 3y ago

It's like Apple, proprietary equals money.

mrtweetyhack 3y ago

[dead]

1970-01-01 3y ago

You can find adapters to attach one popular brand's battery to another's on eBay. Examples in store: https://www.ebay.com/str/xtools88 https://www.ebay.com/str/xtools88

RecycledEle 3y ago

Standard DC power connectors are long overdue. Let me suggest a few: * USB-C (type A and type C) (but simplify the voltage selection and change the spec so it just supplies as many amps as it can) * 12V 5.5x2.1mm barrel connectors * 12V car accessory outlets * 12V battery terminals * 19V Dell laptop power connectors * 48V Power Poles (originally made by Anderson) in various amperages Lithium, rechargeable batteries should also be standardized: * Nokia 1100 prismatic cell (still used in many wireless peripherals, and could work well in almost all A/V remote controls) * 4AH lithium prismatic cell (for most cell phones) * 18650 (single cell) * 2-cell 18650 pack (pick any power tool battery and use that) * 4-cell devices should use a pair of the 2-cell 18650 packs. Black and Decker made VPX power tools that did that many years ago. * 5-cell lithium pack (maybe 18650 cells) Pick any power tool battery that has a flat top, meaning not my beloved Ryobi and use that. Then everyone can make adapters that add 1/2" to the height of the battery. * 40V lithium battery pack (pick any one of the electric lawnmower types that can handle a lot fo amps and use that) * Car-scale battery packs that are about 1 cubic foot, so that many of them can power your home or automobile

theshrike79 3y ago

Protip, you can order converters from pretty much any power tool battery to any other brand from Aliexpress (or from a reseller/dropshipper on Amazon/eBay). I sold all my Ryobi stuff except for their air compressor and switched to AEG. Bought an AEG->Ryobi adapter for, I think, 10€ and it works just fine with the Ryobi compressor.

oliwarner 3y ago

Capitalism. Let's not waste a thousand words when one will do. It's really that simple. All these batteries are just 18/36/54 Volt configurations of 18650 cells (with a few exceptions). Some have $0.50 undercharge management chips, some don't. The difference is the mounts and pinouts and they are only distinctive to avoid interoperability. They do this to keep you brand-loyal. As soon as you buy a kit (eg driver, drill, battery and charger) for a knock down rate you're much more likely to buy other "bare" tools from the same range because they're compatible with the expensive battery you've just bought. It's cheaper to stay loyal. As soon as you go pro, that loyalty is magnified because you need multiple batteries ready to go. Owning and charging that redundancy across multiple platforms is a lot of overhead. They could all use the same batteries and chargers. They choose not to. Bosch has made a common platform (now called AMPShare?) but the buy-in is limited (mostly smaller, mostly German toolmakers) and Bosch seems to do best out of this, but it's a start.

rasz 3y ago

Its more than brand lock in, its market segmentation. POWER TOOL MANUFACTURERS AND WHO REALLY OWNS THEM https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-owns-them/ https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-... TTI owns Milwaukee, Ridgid, Ryobi. Cant swap batteries between them despite all coming from same factory. Stanleyblackanddecker is Craftsman, Stanley, Proto, Irwin, MAC, Bostitch, DeWalt, the list goes on and on. Its pure comedy. There are some rare cases where they share same design in different regions https://www.reddit.com/r/Tools/comments/104pndo/yes_theyre_100_compatible_craftsman_sold_in_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Tools/comments/104pndo/yes_theyre_1... but other than that they pull pranks like same injection molding with same pin shape but switched polarity!

jfengel 3y ago

I was tickled the other day to discover that Makita also makes a coffee maker that uses their batteries. It's a nifty gimmick to get you to use Makita-branded products on the job site. https://www.makitatools.com/products/details/DCM501Z https://www.makitatools.com/products/details/DCM501Z (They also offer a kettle and a cooler, and other things that are useful on a job site but not conventionally "tools".)

willcipriano 3y ago
Down the same road Coleman makes a propane coffee maker. https://www.amazon.com/Coleman-QuikPot-Propane-Coffee-Maker/dp/B004E4IAEQ https://www.amazon.com/Coleman-QuikPot-Propane-Coffee-Maker/...

exabrial 3y ago

Vendor lockin is why. These things are expensive, but they're not a pure profit center as one thinks.... Most tool batteries just wrap high quality LG Chem 18650s. I don't know the wholesale price, but since they're roughly $4-$5 at retail, lets say 8x @ $3 wholesale. Then you have electronics bom/assembly (generous $10) and casing/asembly ($2) and labor ($1) for a total of $37. Following the "Double your cost and charge that rule" = $74 I made my estimate before looking up the cost of batteries, but Ryobi (Owned by TTI, same people that make Milwaukee hilariously) falls around that price point as do others. So the prices, while seemingly ginormous, aren't as absurd as one thinks. 18650 LiOn prices are insane. DeWalt (Owned by Stanley Black & Decker) is now creating tool batteries that use flat cells (called "Pouch Batteries"), which honestly, makes _a lot_ more sense. Square tool batteries = square batteries = more mAh per unit volume. No idea why don't use these in BE-EVs.

mindslight 3y ago
It's definitely vendor lockin. Sometimes the straightforward answer really is the right one. As you said, Ryboi and Mikwaukee have the same owner, along with Ridgid [0]. They could have easily made batteries work across brands, and even added caveats to their marketing that your Milwaukee tools won't have full performance with Ryobi batteries (etc). But they didn't - because once someone buys into an ecosystem they get a strong affinity to continue buying in, rather than saving money and buying a less expensive tool that they need less. Market decommodification generally increases margins. The main draw for the lockin, at least in my experience, is wanting a good supply of batteries to not run out in the middle of something. Whereas if I had many different color tools and one or two batteries for each color, then I'd have to be much more attentive to keeping them charged. Personally I bought into Dewalt - the trigger on their driver felt smoother. Then Dewalt 60V - the tool I wanted had good reviews and I can use the batteries in 20V tools for longer yard work, etc. My one deviation has been the Ryobi powered PEX cincher, for which Dewalt or anybody else didn't seem to have a comparable one. I bought it as a bare tool and added a Dewalt->Ryobi battery adapter. Occasionally I'll see more Ryobi stuff at great prices and be tempted, but I ask myself if I really need it, given that it's probably "less powerful" (half marketing, half truth) and the balance would be off (due to the adapter). Meanwhile a sale on a Dewalt tool that will make my life easier feels like a no brainer, due to already having the "proper" batteries. The main churn-gimmick I've managed to resist is buying cordless tools when corded ones suffice for the type of job. Like if I'm needing a palm sander, I'm probably working on a longer term project and it makes sense to run an extension cord, rather than needing to occasionally do a few minutes of sanding at a time. Although I admit that calculus might be different if I didn't literally have more corded power tools than I know what to do with. [0] https://toolguyd.com/tool-brands-corporate-affiliations/ https://toolguyd.com/tool-brands-corporate-affiliations/

cityofdelusion 3y ago

There's no universal cordless power tool battery because the primary industry (construction) just doesn't care. Guys just buy whatever brand they are locked into and do the job. One-off tools or tools where one brand is just way better tend to be both corded and ran off a generator.

dave333 3y ago

Seems like there would be a market for a universal adapter that accepts all the different batteries and plugs into all the tools - or at least several of the major brands. Kind of like an octopus cable but with some additional straps to let you bundle the whole thing with whatever tool compactly. Probably the adapters would infringe on everyone's patents or copyright or whatever or someone would have done it.

StueyGuyd 3y ago
The challenge with adapters is that different batteries communicate different things to a tool, such as internal temperature, in different ways. You cannot just connect + to + and - to -. What could work is a battery with a new standardized interface, and modular adapters that can match different brands' tool interfaces. Over the years, maybe some brands might develop tools that mate directly to the universal battery. But now there are 18V/20V Max, 24V Max, 36V/40V Max, and 54V/60V Max cordless systems. There's no practical solution for this.

westurner 3y ago

From "USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27295621 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27295621 : > What are the costs to add a USB PD module to an electronic device? https://hackaday.com/2021/04/21/easy-usb%E2%80%91c-power-for-all-your-devices/ https://hackaday.com/2021/04/21/easy-usb%E2%80%91c-power-for... > - [ ] Create an industry standard interface for charging and using [power tool,] battery packs; and adapters From "Zero energy ready homes are coming" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35065366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35065366 : # USB power specs (DC) 7.5w = 1.5amp * 5volts # USB 15w = 3a * 5v # USB-C 100w = 5a * 20v # USB-C PD 240w = 5a * 48v # USB-C PD 3.1 Others could also send emails to power tool manufacturers about USB-C PD support and evolving the spec to support power tool battery packs.

andromeduck 3y ago
Anything but USB-C.
- westurner 3y ago
  Hopefully the counter-proposal doesn't involve a custom barrel jack, eh?

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