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Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison
- chitowneats 3y ago[dead]
- nickpinkston 3y agoIf you steal more than $5K three times in California, you will get 25 years in prison [1], and while I think that's disgusting and detestable, I don't want any elites getting special treatment either, so as to force change in those sentencing guidelines. [1] https://www.kannlawoffice.com/grand-theft.html https://www.kannlawoffice.com/grand-theft.html
- throwaway5959 3y agoIt's pretty disgusting how little jail time she's receiving for the scope of her crimes.
- sebzim4500 3y ago11 years is quite a long time and seems suitable for scamming some idiots out of their money. IMO the reason it seems low is that people get such unreasonably long sentences for doing far less.
- stametseater 3y ago> suitable for scamming some idiots out of their money. Agreed. Of course she deserves more prison time for scamming the patients, but she wasn't convicted for that.
- dragonwriter 3y ago> 11 years is quite a long time And 11 federal years is a longer sentence than 11 years in most state systems, since there is much less opportunity to serve less than a full sentence in the federal system (short of executive pardon/commutation). There’s very limited good conduct time, but no systematic parole eligibility and early release.
- 00F_ 3y ago[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- sebzim4500 3y agoI'm not saying all rich people are idiots, just the ones that invested in Theranos.
- adrr 3y agoStealing tens of millions from VC funds that have multi billion dollar portfolios. Thats the scope. Compared to stealing catalytic converter off someone making $40k a year and who has $2,000 in the bank and will need to spend half their savings to replace their catalytic converter.
- IIAOPSW 3y agoRight, but Holmes didn't steal $5k more than three times. She stole millions of dollars but only did it once. So your statute doesn't apply.
- arthurcolle 3y agoCan't tell if serious. Can you see how the second might be seen as worse than the first? Literally perverse incentives. "Go big or go home" and no worries! Couple years in Federal summer camp and you go back to your cushy upper class lifestyle as a consultant or startup advisor, or "executive coaching" for other future/wannabe scammers
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- gumby 3y agoTo me it seems to be clearly pointing out the injustice of the "three strikes" law.
- IIAOPSW 3y agoYou may not like it but that is in fact the letter of the law. The letter does not get bent to produce the outcome that feels more fair or just. To do so is to abandon the principle of rule of law to begin with. You probably should learn at some point, the legal system is basically a pedantic genie interpreting 3 wishes. "oh I wish the 3 strikes law applied to people like Holmes as well." "Granted". Don't blame me. Make better wishes.
- rootusrootus 3y agoShe only got caught once, but as an ongoing thing I think it's safe to say that she stole more than once.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- IIAOPSW 3y ago
- gumby 3y ago> I don't want any elites getting special treatment either... These days I normally roll my eyes and stop reading when I encounter someone saying "the elites" but in this case it is 100% appropriate: she was a member of a wealthy elite, and both deliberately and casually used her connections from the get go.
- explaininjs 3y agoDid you mean "causally"? Not sure the degree of formality is relevant.
- pianoben 3y agoAs an idiom "casually used her connections" can mean "without due consideration" or "without compunction". It implies that "using her connections" was an easy and simple choice for her, as opposed to one in which she wrestled with the moral dimension.
- gumby 3y agoNo, (and I'm not sure that "causally" would even result in a comprehensible sentence). Her deliberate use was exploiting her very close childhood friendship with Tim Draper's kids to get Draper to fund her and use his network to find other investors and to get the message out. Another was her using her network to get a number of distracting and bizarre board members (ex generals and the like), especially when Vally VCs (other than Draper) refused to give the company the time of day. The casual way I noticed was how she just slipped into a milieu of Ted talks, various "though leader" pieces, and circulated at Davos and wherever. No gawky fish-out-of-water period. This is quite different from the typical nerd "has to get used to things" situation and gave her tremendous credibility with the rubes outside the valley. I would drive or bike past their office on Page Mill and for a long time had no idea what they did, despite having been in the life sciences myself at the time. They were weirdly physically in Silicon Valley but simultaneously not part of it.
- explaininjs 3y ago“She both deliberately and causally used her connections” would mean she concisely chose to use the connections and the use of those connections was a necessary condition of whatever transpired. Seems to me to be a much stronger statement than “she used her connections and didn’t seem to care too much about doing so”. Regarding her seeming effortless transition into the public spotlight, I’d imagine it’s learned from a young age as an “elite”. Fun fact, her great* grandfather made the yeast company you probably use.
- thih9 3y ago> If you steal more than $5K three times in California (...) Possible typo, linked article lists $950. Quote: "Grand Theft is punishable under California's “Three Strikes” system. (...) If you get three “strikes” on your record, you'll serve a minimum of twenty-five years in a state prison. (...) to be guilty of Grand Theft under CPC §§487(a)-(d), you must: Take property or services worth more than $950; or (...)". Source is the same, i.e.: https://www.kannlawoffice.com/grand-theft.html https://www.kannlawoffice.com/grand-theft.html
- dragonwriter 3y agoThe federal sentencing guidelines have nothing to do with California state criminal law. Of course, if an act is both a federal and state crime, you can be prosecuted for each. In fact, if an act is a crime in multiple states (which is possible), you can be charged and punished separately by each state as well as the federal government if it is also a federal crime. This rarely happens even where theoretically possible, but it can (its much more common for other jurisdictions to prosecute if you are acquitted in one but the act could be prosecuted in another as well.)
- ashwagary 3y ago>if an act is a crime in multiple states (which is possible), you can be charged and punished separately by each state For the California three strikes law, am I correct in guessing all three strikes have to be in the state of California, or can 1-2 of the earlier strikes be in another state? If the former is true, is the optimal choice after 2 strikes to leave California permanently (other than ceasing criminal activity of course)?
- dragonwriter 3y ago> For the California three strikes law, am I correct in guessing all three strikes have to be in the state of California The prior strikes don't have to be in California or under California law, but if they are convictions from another jurisdiction, the conviction must include all the elements of a California offense which would be countable as a prior strike (one that is classified as a “serious or violent felony”.) The final strike must be a conviction under California law. > If the former is true, is the optimal choice after 2 strikes to leave California permanently Well, I suppose, but note that sonething like 23 other states and the Federal government have three strikes laws, too, and many of them (including the federal one) consider prior strikes from other jurisdictions. And habitual criminals aren’t often warmly welcomed by foreign immigration authorities.
- bradleyjg 3y agoThree strikes and you’re out isn’t about retribution, it’s about the strong evidence that the specific deterrence and rehabilitation effect of prison will not work on a particular individual.
- p_j_w 3y ago>rehabilitation effect of prison There is no such effect in the USA. Prisons are 100% not designed to rehabilitate anyone here.
- xtracto 3y agoWhat do you think of Danny Trejo's rehabilitation [1]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Trejo#Life_of_crime_and_incarceration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Trejo#Life_of_crime_and_...
- p_j_w 3y agoOne person rehabbing doesn't invalidate the mountains of evidence the other way.
- burnished 3y agoAnyone guilty of wage theft getting hit by that law? Just saying, in practice its clearly not about jailing menaces to society.
- bradleyjg 3y agoDo you know of anyone that’s been convicted of wage theft, sent to prison, convicted of a new count of wage theft, sent to prison, and convicted of a new count of wage theft … or did you just want to flog your hobbyhorse regardless of how poor the fit was?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- cscurmudgeon 3y agoAre you from the area? On the way I literally walk through multiple open air stolen goods sellers that have been around for years. The bay area is famous for folks walking out stores with stolen goods: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/after-san-francisco-shoplifting-video-goes-viral-officials-argue-thefts-n1273848 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/after-san-francisco-sho... You can kill someone with a gun and spend just 7 years in prison. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Kate_Steinle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Kate_Steinle Btw, I fully support Holmes getting punished but lets not misrepresent the ground reality.
- trinsic2 3y agoYea, my wife works at a retail store here in the bay area and theft so normalized its unbelievable to me. They hire low paying loss prevention staff that have 0 power to do anything and just use to their time to look daunting while following shoplifters around so they can claim insurance loss when they walk out of the store with merch. They don't call the police or do anything that could be cause for the criminals to bring a suit against the store for violating their rights.
- diydsp 3y agoThree strikes can be triggered with much less, even petty theft can trigger it. In this example, the defendant received 25 years in prison for his third crime of stealing a pair of socks[0] "Specifically, the Three Strikes law made it possible for a repeat offender to receive a prison sentence of 25 years to life for a nonserious or nonviolent felony (for example, petty theft with a prior)"[1] [0] https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/cruel-and-unusual-punishment-the-shame-of-three-strikes-laws-92042/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/cruel-an... [1] https://lao.ca.gov/2005/3_strikes/3_strikes_102005.htm https://lao.ca.gov/2005/3_strikes/3_strikes_102005.htm
- nickpinkston 3y agoDisgusting... thanks for sharing.
- stametseater 3y agoGood, her children will be better off not being raised by a felon mother. The father's family has plenty of money, the kids will be well cared for without her around. With luck the father will find a new mother for the kids and they'll forget about Holmes.
- oh_sigh 3y agoThere is no such place as Byron, Texas.
- KindAndFriendly 3y agoReading this entire story, it baffles me that as of today I can still add a "Full Self-Driving Capability" option when ordering a Tesla.
- nailer 3y agoI am amazed at that too. If you need to pay attention and intervene, it’s clearly not ‘full self driving’.
- haliskerbas 3y ago$TSLA made enough people rich I suppose. I saw some gains myself although not on a large scale. Still don’t like the guy but there’s the old adage “for my friends everything, for my enemies the law”. If $TSLA plummets a crazy amount the tables may turn
- luckylion 3y ago[flagged]
- ladberg 3y agoI'm gonna need a source for that... I don't know of any collaboration between the two companies or overlap between their cars in general.
- mortehu 3y agoI think this is a Theranos reference that went over everyone's heads. Theranos were using Siemens machines while pretending to use their own technology. Obviously Tesla is not doing anything like this, and GP's point is that they are not similar.
- hef19898 3y agoTesla out VWed VW in the marketing game. Other than that, they have nothing in common...
- 3y ago
- JumpCrisscross 3y agoA perverse culture of presumed lawlessness has migrated from Wall Street to Silicon Valley. You see it, here, when top-voted comments scoff at the notion of a perpetrator getting jail time. Hopefully, these sentences result in people being less cavalier about criminality. (Andreessen pivoting back to pumping web3 tempers my hope.)
- LadyCailin 3y agoThe top comment is wondering why Musk isn’t in jail too. A sentiment I also hold.
- fghsqwads 3y ago[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> a link to your comment in his Discord TIL I have a Discord.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- joering2 3y agoHe is too big to jail. He legally/lawfully been spending nice chunk of revenue for lobbying and has many ex-politicians working for him. So unless you operate in gray area (maybe one day your car will self drive) and not in black area (our machines never worked and actually some people even die because of misdiagnosis), you should be good to continue. I also think he has reason to attach himself so much to politics - you already have many republicans like Jim Jordan strongly defending him (like with Trump) regardless of any law breaking.
- ExMachina73 3y agoAny bets she actually reports? Odds anyone? I feel a woman of her means and personality may try to disappear, go off grid. Does she still have access to money? Were her assets frozen?
- jeffwask 3y agoShe tried before sentencing and was caught. https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/20/tech/elizabeth-holmes-mexico/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/20/tech/elizabeth-holmes-mexico/...
- tptacek 3y agoPeople say stuff like this because it's fun to talk about, not because it's a live issue. Do you actually want to bet? There aren't a lot of serious odds you could suggest for this where I wouldn't bet she shows up, like everybody else does.
- standardUser 3y agoThe last I heard, the founders of Ubiome had fled the country and are wanted by the FBI after their company was raided. Not everyone "shows up" if they have the means to flee.
- tptacek 3y agoDo you actually want to bet? I'd be happy to take your money.
- Alupis 3y agoNo, because there's probably a lot of eyeballs on her at this moment. She's probably the very definition of a flight risk I would imagine, given her personality, the scope of her crimes, and her previous attempt to flee. However, you make it sound like it's super difficult to disappear. It can be as simple as getting on a boat and sailing off into the night, or an airplane... no Hollywood plot necessary - no one would have any clue who was onboard, and depending on the destination, they may not care either.
- AndrewKemendo 3y agoHolmes, Madoff etc... are all the proof that you need that the only people who go to Jail for fraud are the ones whose fraud hurts specifically investors.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> the only people who go to Jail for fraud are the ones whose fraud hurts specifically investors Minus all the other fraud convictions constantly being handed down in America, sure.
- mywittyname 3y agoI think the OP meant more, "the only rich people". Having enough money to have the direct line to someone important in a political party is valuable. Enough prosecutors have a mind for future ambitions and understand that some battles just aren't worth fighting. That doesn't make for straight up immunity, but it does change the calculus enough that so long as no one else really cares about your crime, they can let it slide or negotiate it down to something trivial.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> it does change the calculus enough that so long as no one else really cares about your crime, they can let it slide This ignores the other side of the calculus: the political and career benefits of high-profile takedowns. I don't claim this balances across the power spectrum. But it's a far cry from the dystopia OP posits.
- jkaptur 3y agoJust from pop culture, I can come up with a counterexample: https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/reality-show-cast-member-jennifer-shah-sentenced-78-months-prison-running-nationwide https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/reality-show-cast-membe... I'm not saying you're wrong in the aggregate, but can't you make a better argument? How can noting two people who went to jail for one reason be "all the proof you need"?
- indigodaddy 3y agoI don’t know why but in my own perverse way, I can sometimes root for her, even still. Maybe I just see her as a cartoon/movie villain (we will sometimes root for them)—- I somehow don’t accept her a real person.
- standardUser 3y agoI have a really hard time believing that non-violent crimes should result in a person being locked in a cage. I'd rather see restrictions that limit their ability to do more damage, like when a reckless driver gets their license revoked. Besides, a free person with a job can pay back their debt to society, literally, with money, instead of the rest of us paying their living costs. EDIT: As comments point out, it is arguable that the crimes in question are violent because they directly jeopardized people's health.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> non-violent crimes I’m in a similar boat. But corruption is uniquely caustic to a society. In its erosion of trust. And in its perpetrators’ unique ability to bounce back and cause trouble anew. Fraud at this scale, at Holmes’ level, is similar in those attributes. > restrictions that limit their ability to do more damage Under what penalty? > free person with a job can pay back their debt to society Construct a restriction on Holmes. I’ll propose a loophole. Then consider the cost of constantly litigating that with her.
- hef19898 3y agoSBF and Bernie Madoff sure would like that approach.
- realusername 3y agoGiven she falsified medical results for so long, it's guaranteed some people have died as a result of her actions, that goes further than your average fraud
- azmarks 3y agoShe was not convicted on any charges about falsified medical results. She was only convicted on defrauding investors
- realusername 3y agoYes I know, I don't necessarily agree with the charges either, the falsified medical results is clearly the worst part for me.
- mchannon 3y agoThe Bureau of Prisons will designate where she goes, and unless there's some prevailing medical reason (unlikely), or other reasons involving cooperation, request, security threats, access to particular religious facilities, or a repeat stay, my understanding is they're constrained by statute to pick a reasonable distance from home (that might be only X years from release date though). The women's FCI in Dublin, California is an easy drive and they (presumably) have her level of security. If she wants to say F California (maybe she did in her PSR) then maybe Bryan TX is her destination. Could also be some random third facility. I don't think if a flight risk to Mexico is a concern that they'd be sending her so close to Mexico, but it may upgrade her security level enough that Dublin's off the table. It's all time and it all sucks. Her kids will get to see her if their father wants them to, perhaps every weekend.
- AlbertCory 3y agoThat's the theory. In reality, there are "prison consultants" who can help you get into a "better" prison. You can ask for citations, and I actually found one [1]. [1] https://archive.ph/vFvq7 https://archive.ph/vFvq7
- mchannon 3y agoHucksters, almost all of them. They prey on the desperate. They preyed on my family.
- AlbertCory 3y agoI'm sure you're right, but the reason I know about them is that I do know a guy who used one, and got a "better" prison. No names, for obvious reasons.
- mchannon 3y agoWhile incarcerated, half the people "know a guy". Maybe the prison was "better", or maybe it was just a different mix of pros and cons. Not only was the advice I received unhelpful, following it actually made my stay longer. My family would have been better off taking the substantial amount of money and setting it on fire.
- micromacrofoot 3y agoI don't think she, or other non-violent criminals, should be in prison. There are much more affordable and constructive ways to handle this. This isn't rehabilitation or justice, only punishment.
- jotjotzzz 3y agoYou do the crime, you do the time! It's called punishment because it's a damn crime. A person who made the decision to use shoddy materials to build a building knowing it will collapse, and that building does collapse and killed thousands. So that person should be "rehabilitated"? Give me a break. A little common sense goes a long way.
- micromacrofoot 3y agowhat does common sense tell us about having incredibly high incarceration and recidivism rates? are we too stupid to do better than throw everyone in a cage?
- exclusiv 3y agoMaking fraudulent claims for your medical device may not be traditionally violent. But it is.
- polotics 3y agoPunishment is an essential element of justice. How can there be justice without punishment for the crimes committed. Or do you propose the dead will have their life rehabilitated somehow?
- micromacrofoot 3y agoI was not aware that elizabeth holmes murdered people, how is this relevant?
- polotics 3y agoBe aware then: https://www.google.com/amp/s/fortune.com/2022/01/04/theranos-elizabeth-holmes-human-cost-fraud-faulty-blood-test-patients/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/fortune.com/2022/01/04/theranos... If that doesn't qualify, then what does?
- polotics 3y agoThe news IMHO is how come she's not yet behind bars?
- rwmj 3y agoIt's strange isn't it! Does it happen in other countries that you can negotiate when your prison sentence starts? Here in the UK, the judge passes sentence and literally "sends you down" to the cells to start it. (The holding cells in larger courts are physically below the dock where the prisoner is sentenced https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/send-down https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/send-dow... ) Also this rule only seems to apply to rich people. Poor people even in America go straight to prison.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- pas 3y agoin Hungary recently a famous musician got caught stealing electricity (for his apartments that were rented by others), got sentenced, but managed to postpone going to jail because he got sick.
- kevin_thibedeau 3y agoShe conned her husband into another child.
- wpietri 3y agoOne of the questions I have about any fraudster is where they fall on the goof/sociopath spectrum. It's surprisingly easy to start a Ponzi scheme by accident, after all. You just offer investors good returns (legal), be too optimistic about how it will go (legal), and then give them the promised returns anyhow by using other investor money (very illegal). I suspect a number of companies even get away with it, as they get in the black fast enough to be able to cover things up. But a lot of the people who get caught look to be eager-to-please fuckups, not calculating criminals. But if I ever had any question about Holmes, it was richly answered for me by her having not one but two children while under indictment for crimes that yielded an 11-year sentence. I cannot imagine the kind of person who has kids knowing there were good odds they'd have to abandon them for much of their childhood.
- RajT88 3y agoThe kind of person who would start having children in hopes it would buy leniency in sentencing.
- wpietri 3y agoThat is a disturbingly plausible explanation.
- robocat 3y ago> then give them the promised returns anyhow by using other investor money (very illegal) Actually, that is normal accepted business in many cases, and not illegal except in specific circumstances. Classic example is commercial real estate bonds, where they roll over (the new bonds pay the old bond holders). Or an IPO looks like a Ponzi, but usually isn't.
- wpietri 3y agoAn IPO doesn't involve the company paying stockholders. It involves investors paying the company. Then previous stockholders sell their shares to future ones. And bondholders understand up front that they are getting cash back on a particular date; that's the whole deal with a bond. Stockholders, though, expect profits to come from a functioning enterprise that generates value, not newer stockholders.
- kepler1 3y agoNow that the ruling has landed, it's clear she's going to prison, and her born and unborn kids have outlasted their purpose, I'm sure she's going to ship them off to whatever outsourced child supervision service she's procured for that purpose. As long as the price was good.
- mikl 3y agoCouldn’t happen to a nicer gal. Fraudulent businesspeople far too seldom get any serious consequences.
- donatj 3y agoAre ankle monitors in this day and age not to the point where we can't keep people who are yet to be sentenced out of prison?
- ejb999 3y agoshe has been tried and convicted already.
- dragonwriter 3y ago> Are ankle monitors in this day and age not to the point where we can't keep people who are yet to be convicted out of prison? She has been tried, convicted, and sentenced, and is trying to avoid prison during her appeal, so your question is irrelevant here.
- jdthedisciple 3y agoI'm shocked at the sympathy HN has for this criminal. The same people who blame the investors for being so "naive" to believe her BS.
- joering2 3y agoI doubt she ever see a day behind bars. Like Ramesh "Sunny" Balwani. You would think guy is in prison; meanwhile both Wiki and some other pretty decent sources clearly state "free on $500,000 bail".
- aklemm 3y agoSqueezing in a couple pregnancies while faced with spending her remaining childbearing years in prison adds to the drama and sadness here. What a lady.