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I've had a similar story happen in the past. I was living in Japan looking for remote jobs and came across Couchbase. Interviewed well with the team who all se

• mattw2121 3y ago
  Never put in notice until background checks and all on boarding paperwork is 100% complete. Putting in notice on an offer letter is premature and, unfortunately, leads to bad results.
  • etherealG 3y ago
    In France where I work an offer letter is binding to hire. After that if you are fired you are entitled to strong compensation if there is no proof you failed at your job. On top of that there is significant unemployment benefits to support you during looking for a new job for years. This seems like a normal societies way to secure the transition between jobs. I’m thankful I don’t live in any of these crazy places that make changing jobs seem like a severe stress way beyond what it should be.
  • zinclozenge 3y ago
    For clarification, by on boarding paperwork do you mean forms i9 and w4?
  • 300bps 3y ago
    I’ve had a career lasting over three decades and counting. Have never gone a day without a job in that time. Part of the reason is because I followed your exact advice. To which I would also add - don’t have a big gap between your last day at your current job and your first day at your next. Simply walking in the door on your first day increases the amount of paperwork they have to file to get rid of you.
    • haspok 3y ago
      Why do you belittle yourself so much? Maybe there is more paperwork if they let you go on the first day (but for the HR people it is just doing their job - to do that paperwork!), but I don't think so. It is also very common to have a short (1 week max) notice for the probation period, so they will let you go if there are any issues. The reason why you had a job was most probably not the amount of paperwork they would have had to do had they really wanted to fire you. Maybe you were doing your job right? And what if you are without a job for some time? Unless you are just starting out from nothing, your you depend on a visa, it is not the end of the world... Some people even do it on purpose.
      • ghaff 3y ago
        >Some people even do it on purpose. Yeah, when I took my current job I was more in the vein of "How much time off can I take that you won't mind?" We settled on something like 3 or 4 weeks and I booked a vacation. Sure, stuff can happen. But I try not to be paranoid about what are low probability events at the end of the day that I only have limited control over.
    • lotsofpulp 3y ago
      > Simply walking in the door on your first day increases the amount of paperwork they have to file to get rid of you. How? I have fired an employee for walking in on their first day smelling like cannabis and being high as a kite and it did not it change any “paperwork” I had to do. Everywhere in the US has at will employment, so barring a union agreement, all the employer has to do is document that they no longer want to employ the person anymore.
  • yebyen 3y ago
    How's that supposed to work, when the process dictates that onboarding begins on your start date? If only we could give -10 days notice.
    • dilyevsky 3y ago
      > If only we could give -10 days notice Don't let your dreams be dreams!
    • AlwaysRock 3y ago
      Then you give -10 days notice. 2 weeks is a nicety and not legally required in the USA. Probably not required in many other places as well. It's unfortunate but I've never had a manager get too upset about it.
      • 93po 3y ago
        Also jobs often/usually fire people with 0 day notice and no severance. I don't know why it's an expectation that employees would give notice without any reciprocation.
        • vikingerik 3y ago
          0 day notice and no severance is unusual, at least for skilled professional jobs in the US. It does happen, but usually only for some unusual circumstance, like some kind of employee misbehavior or a sudden financial calamity for the company. Two weeks notice by the employee or severance by the employer is the most common case on both sides, probably for roughly 80% or so of professional jobs including all of my own. Of course it does suck to be in the outlying 20%, and the anecdotes will trend towards reporting that case, but is the minority. Most actors on both sides behave well, even if there is a substantial minority of problems. (Edit since some replies seem to have the wrong idea - termination effective immediately without notice is common, but usually there is severance pay except in cases of misconduct or disaster.)
          • AlwaysRock 3y ago
  • xienze 3y ago
    In previous jobs I’ve always given notice after receiving an offer. In hindsight, I realize that was pretty dumb, but it was a different time, long ago. Going forward I will absolutely wait until my first day on the new job to give notice to the old one. It’s not fair to either employer, but getting an offer pulled after quitting an existing job scares the hell out of me.
    • jrochkind1 3y ago
      > Going forward I will absolutely wait until my first day on the new job to give notice to the old one. So... you'll give -1 days notice? "Hey old boss, you may have noticed I didn't come in today..."
      • mcast 3y ago
        I think OP meant they’ll be moonlighting 2 jobs for 2 weeks.
        • jrochkind1 3y ago
          Ah. I still don't understand how this isn't considered fraud, or people aren't worried about being prosecuted or sued over it. Getting paid to do two "full-time" jobs simultaneously, without them knowing about it. Maybe just confident they won't get caught.
          • ghaff 3y ago
            I think that they might be fired if new employer somehow finds out about it. (Though I doubt anyone would bother suing.) I don't understand all the people counseling getting some incremental protection against a low probability event (offer being withdrawn) when that incremental protection is something you'll probably get away with but better hope no one finds out.
            • jrochkind1 3y ago
              Or if the OLD employer finds out about it -- that you were working a new job for two weeks while still taking a paycheck from OLD employer for those two weeks, I can't see them being happy about. but I guess there's little they could do to you, but try to stop payment on your last paycheck. My current (non-profit, academic) employer says in the employee manual that you can't do ANY outside work without disclosing it to them and getting approved -- so I'd be in violation of that policy if found out. At first I was annoyed by this -- why shouldn't I be able to do some consulting on the evenings and weekends without their permission? But as long as the process for approval is quick and easy and they generally approve... I can see how maybe it was actually intended, in a remote work world, to make it clear you are violating their policies if you take a second full time job and imply to both jobs you are on the clock simultaneously!
  • fuddle 3y ago
    Agreed, not until I have a signed employment contract.
    • that_guy_iain 3y ago
      You can still run into the same issues. As the blog author. For me, if you're going to be making a move, you've already decided you're making a move. Worrying about the other side withdrawing the offer doesn't worry me that much, especially since in quite a few country there are legal requirements about job offers.
    • jrochkind1 3y ago
      It sounds like OP had a signed employment contract. > Thus, the contract with me has been terminated 10 days before it was supposed to take effect. Apparently a contract that allowed no-cause termination. I'm not sure what that contract is good for exactly, but I think this is common in the USA. Whether it's legal in the UK I couldn't say.
      • chippiewill 3y ago
        In the UK you don't get the typical employment rights until after 2 years of employment. Most employment contracts have you on zero-notice until 6 month probation is completed.
        • Arch-TK 3y ago
          > Most employment contracts have you on zero-notice until 6 month probation is completed. No? I've never been on zero months notice. A reduced notice period for probation yes, but never on no notice.
          • mytailorisrich 3y ago
            Always one week notice during probation in my experience. But the point remains that the company can terminate you with very little cause and very little notice when you've just started. So while it is a good idea to wait until at least receiving a signed contract before giving notice to your current job you'll still be at higher risk for some time.
  • davchana 3y ago
    My state job did (& it was normal) all i9 w4 stuff on 1st day of joining.
  • smolder 3y ago
    I'm sure the parent poster recognizes this is good advice in retrospect. It's a good lesson for others to learn vicariously, though.
  • makingstuffs 3y ago
    100% this. Never hand in your notice until you have a contract in your hand. No contract means you’re relying on hopium.
    • heyoni 3y ago
      Hopium?
  • bojangleslover 3y ago
    Honestly if either one is remote, just keep them both for a little while
  • samstave 3y ago
    YUP! This happened to me and a good friend of mine who is an Eng Manager at Netflix now... But we both went through a three month long panel interview and I was told I did "very well" on all my interviews and to expect an offer letter in the morning. The next day they called and told me that they wouldnt be making me an offer. The issue was that Brin was still the final sign off... The school that i went to in the early-mid 90s was "Mesmer Animation Labs" in seattle... one of only five animation schools at the time (because of the cost of all the SGIs) It was later bought and merged with UW to basically become the animation dept at UW the year after I graduated... and Mesmer no longer existed... so I put down UW on my resume because there was no Mesmer to confirm that I had gone there any longer... So because I called Mesmer "UW" I got kicked in the financial balls by Brin/Goog as I had opened my mouth any was told I got an offer to my then employer, Lockheed... Yeah - never tell anyone about a verbal offer.
    • ghaff 3y ago
      A couple of things there. 1. A Verbal Contract Isn’t Worth the Paper It’s Written On -- attributed to Samuel Goldwyn, the G of MGM. I don't agree with all the advice to work 2 jobs simultaneously but definitely wait for a written offer. No sensible HR person is going to have an issue with that. 2. In the case of acquisitions/mergers/etc. make it crystal clear that you're not trying to claim a school/employer with maybe more cachet/recognition but where you actually went to/worked at is part of someone else now (or defunct) so if they want to confirm past attendance/employment that's where they need to go. I'm not going to say I worked for Dell even though a string of 2 past employers are "Dell" now via a string of acquisitions. (I might say, these employers, now part of Dell Technologies though the companies are well enough known that I could probably skip the Dell reference which is irrelevant other than they'll pay me a pension someday.)
      • samstave 3y ago
        To put icing on the cake, Google recruiters kept calling me for FIVE FUCKING YEARS for the same job... I had to finally tell them I had gone through three months of panel interviews, Ive designed parts of your data centers, video studio and have built every salesforce office in the US at that point, and designed shit for other FAAN companies so give me the damn job or lose my damn number. They stopped calling me for the job after that. (it was for a network PM under Raligh Mann, who was the ILM CIO before he went on to google... after I designed the DC for Lucas' Presidio campus. Also fun fact, I found out Goog was designing their own motherboards at the time - and I happened to see one when visiting a friend on-site, and saw one under his desk and said hey whats this? and he said "uh, you werent supposed to see that - lets go!" - This was before it was public that both Goog and FB were designing their own DC hardware... Some dope engineering though.
• ResearchCode 3y ago
  What difference does it make if you're at-will. You could be let go on the first day, no reason given.
  • yebyen 3y ago
    Or hours reduced to part-time, or salary cut. As long as they don't try to do this retroactively, or cut your wage below the state minimum, it's not illegal for employers to do that in the US. Fortunately for the rest of the world, the US laws are quite less favorable to employees than many other countries. Just set your VPN to an EU zone country and google "unlawful termination" if you're from the US / set your VPN to US if from EU, and read for some eye-openers!
  • AlwaysRock 3y ago
    Sure. There is risk in any job change. The point here is leaving a job and being boned by the company you are joining because of their own internal fuck up.
  • roflyear 3y ago
    The difference is the company knew they didn't want them. It's awful
• dmak 3y ago
  I hope Couchbase AND Larry reads this because that's messed up. I would never even consider a job there after hearing this.
  • nashashmi 3y ago
    They are too selfish to feel anything. But fwiw, I will try. “We are sorry that this incident happened and will look at our process to see how we can avoid situations like this in the future.” Feel better?
• chippiewill 3y ago
  Sounds like a procedural fuckup. All the usual hiring checks (technical etc.) got approved but Manager Larry's objection wasn't handled correctly by HR so the job offer went through anyway. They really should have paid out at least two months to be honest considering it was their fuck up. I used to work for Couchbase and a lot of the teams were distributed, but spanning too many timezones caused problems in places. If the team you were joining were already spread across say US and Europe then they'd be totally justified in saying that adding Japan to the list would be a bad idea - although that should have been picked up much earlier.
• mihaaly 3y ago
  It was very dishonest and ignorant of them, I will remember them for that! And spread how they f around people. Apparently my strategy of not to handing in notice before a contract is discussed and executed (signed) is not a bad move. I make this clear normally when I start discussing details of employment. I usually tell "I can start x weeks after my contract is signed", where x is the noice period in the previous place. It is not a guarantee as one can be sent away still after (or even before) start, but gives a clearer picture for both parties on each other's current intent.
  • ghaff 3y ago
    >Apparently my strategy of not to handing in notice before a contract is discussed and executed (signed) is not a bad move. I mean, sure? Not quitting before you and they actually sign a piece of paper is a practice absolutely no one should disagree with. No particular reason your start date can't be a bit further out than your customary notice period though if your new employer to be is OK with it and you want to take some time off.
• moralestapia 3y ago
  After 15+ years on the industry and being on all sides of the table (hiring, firing, being hired, being fired, interviewing, prospecting candidates, etc...) I haven't found a situation where HR makes things better. What's the point of HR? Can't we do without them? Really. Edit: This tweet[0] which is pretty much a rant in disguise has a point. What if AI has a much better success rate on this? Recruiters are clueless wrt. to tech anyway. 0: https://twitter.com/adcock_brett/status/1645450069326598145 https://twitter.com/adcock_brett/status/1645450069326598145
  • smsm42 3y ago
    Oh God, please no. Not enough getting tons of recruiter spam, now I'd also get robots pestering me about considering an exciting opportunity in a new exciting startup about which they'd surely be glad to tell me if only I respond to their spam. And this would happen anytime I'd write something online that is tangentially related to some keyword they gave to the robot. Because if I asked a question about some Scala library, and your company uses Scala too, this means I'm a perfect match for you and surely would want to drop everything and come to work for you. Or at least it doesn't cost anything for a robot to try? And the worst of all, if anything goes wrong - "sorry, our AI hiring system had a bug, we deployed an update. We apologize for the inconvenience".
    • moralestapia 3y ago
      You basically laid out what an HR-minded person would do with an AI (I want a faster horse), and yes it sucks. Try to think of how the hiring could be improved in such way that HR becomes unnecessary. "One-click-apply" to any job you want, AI vets you in seconds and tells you yes/no/feedback. Many other good possibilities. >"sorry, our AI hiring system had a bug, we deployed an update. We apologize for the inconvenience LOL, are you trying to make a point for humans here? Ghosting candidates is the standard nowadays. In the example you make the candidate gets a response, at least.
  • joncrane 3y ago
    I've had two companies where HR made things better, but much of that was because I became personal friends with at least one person in HR. A lot of HR professionals genuinely want the employees to be happy and healthy and all that. A lot of HR professionals are stymied in their efforts by other executives that either prioritize money or came up in hardship and think everybody should experience the same hardship. To be clear both of the companies in question were small US Federal government contractors. Since pay is pretty standard across the sector, the way many choose to distinguish themselves is though benefits, culture, and things like that.
• gymbeaux 3y ago
  Stories like these are why I probably won’t give notice at Job A until I’ve already passed probation at Job B. If both jobs are remote, why not?
• matrix_overload 3y ago
  >Then I got any email from Couchbase's lawyers with a document stating they would hire me for 10 days total and no longer. I wonder what would happen to your sign-up bonus? There is usually a clawback clause if you decide to leave yourself, but letting you go after 10 days should still make them liable for it.
• alberth 3y ago
  > He pulled me into a separate call at the end of the rounds and asked some weird questions, which in hindsight were documentation. Would you mind elaborating? Really hope you were able to find something better. Sounds like that’s not a place you’d want to be at anyways.
  • dilyevsky 3y ago
    Guessing the manager didn’t want someone in that timezone but had to extend an offer due to some pressure from above / internal policy so he baited gp to tell on himself in that last session and then used that as grounds to back out
• hammyhavoc 3y ago
  Wishing you and yours less strain and more happiness going forward, mate. That's rough.