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The biggest EV battery recycling plant in the US is open for business
- foolfoolz 4y agogiven the u. s. goals of evs and energy storage recycling batteries domestically instead of shipping the metals off to cheaper destinations is going to become a matter of national security as we won’t produce enough metals on our own
- pkaye 4y agoThe infrastructure bill had funding for domestic extraction and processing of critical minerals. Also US has been encouraging Canada to do the same including providing some grants to Canadian companies to get started. Below is the list of minerals. https://www.usgs.gov/news/national-news-release/us-geological-survey-releases-2022-list-critical-minerals https://www.usgs.gov/news/national-news-release/us-geologica...
- xeromal 4y agoGlad my homestate is making decent strides towards building new things. We just had a nuclear reactor come online, a rivian EV truck factory is here, and now this. We do a bunch of naughty things but I can be proud of these at least.
- cpursley 4y agoThere's a bunch of new plants and factories going up in Georgia (maybe there's a comprehensive list somewhere). Definitely bodes well for Georgia's future in terms of economics.
- xeromal 4y agoYeah, the news is pretty non-stop of new things opening up. Atlanta trying to become the new hollywood I think kickstarted all this at least in my head timeline but I'm sure some hardworking business owners and politicians really just focused on bringing in new work.
- blamazon 4y agoI think it goes a lot further back, one semi-serious data point: the "Chamber of commerce runs Atlanta" meme was satirized by the TV show Futurama in the year 2000: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Deep_South_(Futurama) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Deep_South_(Futurama) https://youtu.be/LeYihjMo0Bk https://youtu.be/LeYihjMo0Bk
- megraf 4y agoThis is likely due to GA's extensive rail network[0]. [0] – https://opendata.atlantaregional.com/datasets/GARC::railroads/explore?location=32.721229%2C-83.235600%2C8.57 https://opendata.atlantaregional.com/datasets/GARC::railroad...
- kfajdsl 4y agoMan, if only we could use some of that for passenger rail... Being able to go from Atlanta to Savannah without a car would be awesome.
- Analemma_ 4y agoIt's a nice idea but keep in mind that any freight which gets displaced from rail thanks to passenger cars would have to go by truck instead, probably with a massive increase in net emissions. Having passengers and freight share track in the US is probably not a win for the environment; passengers would need separate track instead.
- babypuncher 4y agoSo you build more rail
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> build more rail Passenger rail doesn't tend to break even on long-distance dedicated routes, even taking into account externalities.
- iknowstuff 4y agoIt doesn't have to. How much do our freeways cost us? esp with externalities?
- cyberax 4y ago
- legitster 4y agoSuper cool development. Love seeing people actually acting on the laws of of supply and demand. > The scrap and used batteries go through mechanical shredding and sieving, which produces “black mass.” Ascend extracts lithium carbonate from the mass; the remaining mass contains materials such as graphite, nickel, cobalt and manganese. The article brags about the input, but is cagey on the details of the about. Of the 30k tons processed in a year, what percentage is reconstituted?
- cogman10 4y agoAlmost certainly a larger percentage than you'd imagine. LI ion batteries are composed mostly of Nickel and Steel. Both of which are highly recyclable. The fact that they are also able to pull out the lithium is really pretty impressive. The structure of a LI ion battery is essentially a steel case with a metal foil (iron or nickel) coated with a lithium/cobalt/silicon/carbon/phosphorous powder.
- noelherrick 4y agoI find this comment strange since TFA talks about investment from the US government. I guess if by supply and demand, you mean the government demands clean energy and then the market supplies it, that could work, but this decade has been all about the private sector whistling past the graveyard of climate change.
- JumpCrisscross 4y agoWe have a dearth of battery-grade metals refining in America. Battery plants need specialised powders to do their work. Making them isn’t easy. Many aspiring refiners brand themselves as recyclers, since turning metals and old batteries into battery-grade powder is more similar than one would expect. (Lithium carbonate.)
- Vt71fcAqt7 4y agoThat's interesting. Can you expound on this?
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> Can you expound on this? Which part?
- Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago>turning metals and old batteries into battery-grade powder is more similar than one would expect.
- bluGill 4y agoI'm not really an expert, but one obvious thing is you need to take non-pure metals and purify them. Recyclable batteries fail when the chemicals instead chemically combine with something other what you intend them to, crystalize, or otherwise become not the pure metal you start with. That impure metal is not conceptually different from ore, and the same process to turn ore into battery material must be done. Note that ore is more complex as you need to remove a lot more non-battery stuff, while in a used battery what you want is still in fairly high concentration, just not in the form a battery needs.
- samstave 4y agoAs an ignoramous ; what is it about Lithium specificall that makes it special to batteries? Is is that it freely ejects electrons at a higher rate than other materials, given a certain catalyst?
- acyou 4y agoPretty pathetic "recycling": 1. 80-90% of input is not even batteries, it's scrap from woefully inefficient and low yield battery cell manufacturing 2. "Recycling" consists of mechanical shredding to combine all of the copper, aluminum, steel, cathode materials, anode materials 3. A single extraction process pulls out lithium carbonate, the rest is saved for the future as "black mass" for as yet nonexistent processes to pull out the valuable cobalt, nickel, manganese, phosphorus, graphite. The approach taken is practical, but kind of stupid. We want to physically separate these materials, so let's grind them into a well mixed aqueous slurry, then let the process chemists loose to solve it with science. Particulate contamination of new or recycled battery materials with iron particles is a particular concern. Grinding the steel battery casings will not help. The failure isn't with the battery recyclers, we shouldn't blame them. The issue is that consumers pay $0.05 per cell to recycle cells which at the moment are not recyclable, and we all see it as OK. I got my Tesla, ... you. So, as a result, there is zero incentive to consider the full product life cycle when designing cells.
- toomuchtodo 4y agoInput volume is low because vehicle batteries last forever. Importantly, we can ramp on QA rejects, salavaged vehicles, etc before there are tens of millions of EVs out there (not to mention stationary storage that will eventually EOL) needing waste management. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. https://cleantechnica.com/2022/09/21/surprise-nissan-leaf-batteries-last-much-longer-than-expected/ https://cleantechnica.com/2022/09/21/surprise-nissan-leaf-ba... Not super familiar with Ascend ground truth, but very familiar with Redwood Materials state of the art.
- mikestew 4y agoInput volume is low because vehicle batteries last forever. I am not sure of your meaning. Because, taken literally, our 2011 Nissan Leaf would like a word with you.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago> Many will be amazed to learn that Nic Thomas, Nissan’s marketing director for the UK, told Forbes recently, “Almost all of the [EV] batteries we’ve ever made are still in cars, and we’ve been selling electric cars for 12 years. We haven’t got a great big stock of batteries that we can convert into something else,” he added. “It’s the complete opposite of what people feared when we first launched EVs — that the batteries would only last a short time.” > In fact, many EV batteries may outlast the vehicles they are installed in, then enjoy a second life in a stationary storage application before finally being recycled, according to EVANNEX. “At the end of the vehicle’s life — 15 or 20 years down the road — you take the battery out of the car and it’s still healthy with perhaps 60 or 70% of usable charge,” Thomas said. > “It’s more sustainable to take the battery pack out of the car after 20 years, recycle the car, and reuse the battery. By far the easiest thing to do is take the complete battery out of the vehicle, put it in a shipping container in a rack, and plug that into a solar farm.” Can’t speak to a Leaf, but I have fast DC charged my 2018 Model S almost exclusively over the last 100k miles and its pack has degraded only 6%.
- vrglvrglvrgl 4y ago[dead]
- decide1000 4y agoIs this different from how they recycle EV batteries in Europe?
- boshomi 4y agoShanghai Metal Market lists used Lithium-ion battery material/battery scrap https://www.metal.com/price/New%20Energy/Used-Lithium-ion-Battery https://www.metal.com/price/New%20Energy/Used-Lithium-ion-Ba... About 95% of Lithium can be reused.
- KennyBlanken 4y agoAdding to this, a reminder that lithium ion batteries contain very little lithium, and it's not elemental - an extremely common misconception leading to people thinking that they can't use water to stop a pack undergoing thermal runaway / on fire - something that can only be stopped via the cooling effect of water.
- samstave 4y agoSo aside from the lithium, what is causing the runaway thermal to fire/explosion??
- rootusrootus 4y agoThe electrolyte is very flammable and a short circuit provides the temperature to ignite it. Some lithium battery chemistries (LFP is probably the most common, but LTO as well) are much less likely to burn when they fail catastrophically.
- cogman10 4y agoCan LFP experience thermal runaway? I was under the impression you could put a nail through an LFP cell and It'd mostly be fine.
- toomuchtodo 4y agoYes, but it is the most tame of common chemistries. https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2014/ra/c3ra45748f https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2014/ra/c3ra4574...
- jeffrallen 4y agoWhere the heck are they going to find feedstock? Renault found that the batteries don't wear out, they just keep running, going on 10 years.
- Ensorceled 4y agoI suspect, eventually mostly insurance writeoffs, wrecks etc.
- to11mtm 4y agoI'm guessing at least some consumer batteries (i.e. laptop/phone/ebike/etc) can also be recycled at the same facilities; These are often of similar chemistry but may have lower lifespans and there would be no reason the facility could not process them. [0] [0] - A good example would be 18650 batteries; these are used by Tesla but are found in lots of other things.
- mardifoufs 4y agoI guess the Nissan Leaf might single handedly provide for enough initial feedstock, considering how quickly their batteries degrade. Just awful battery management from Nissan on that car.
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- jaberabdullah 4y ago[flagged]
- jaberabdullah 4y ago[flagged]
- Tagbert 4y agoThere are other companies working on these processes. US increases EV battery recycling capacity with new AL facility processing up to 10K tonnes annually https://electrek.co/2022/10/14/us-increases-ev-battery-recycling-capacity-with-new-al-facility/ https://electrek.co/2022/10/14/us-increases-ev-battery-recyc... Redwood Materials recovers ~95% of metals from EOL battery packs https://www.teslarati.com/redwood-materials-metal-recovery-eol-battery/ https://www.teslarati.com/redwood-materials-metal-recovery-e...
- nicenewtemp84 4y agoI wonder how they are able to shred batteries safely, but we hear that an accident that leads to pack deformation can easily start a massive fire.
- rootusrootus 4y agoProbably they've discharged the batteries completely first.
- nicenewtemp84 4y agoSomehow I thought there was still risk even if the battery is discharged.. as in a discharged battery still has chemicals that could go crazy if mixed suddenly. But you must be right. Interesting
- ChancyChance 4y agoHow many EV batteries are decommissioned each year, i.e., could be recycled? This company can handle 70,000 per year according to the article, but what is that number out of? Side note about consumer lithium batteries: The nearest lithium recycling near me is 40 miles away, and it costs $$ to drop of your stuff. I can afford that, but I doubt most Americans properly dispose of their batteries. Heck, I have a neighbor who burns his trash near the road and one time saw him burning a few car batteries in the pile.
- theshrike79 4y agoNot many. Not including a few larger recalls (Hyundai Kona for example), the battery replacement percentage for EVs is under 5%. The rest are still running on the original battery.[0] This is the biggest limit for re-using and recycling EV batteries, the damn things just won't die. [0] https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-car-battery-models-replaced-most-often-nissan-tesla-2023-3 https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-car-battery-models-...
- alliao 4y agoit almost feels like old appliances, back when product was new and every little part was slightly over engineered resulting in those whirlpool washing machines lasting several decades
- rootusrootus 4y agoThat's a very optimistic take. Old appliances cost 10x as much as modern ones (inflation adjusted). If we can chop the price on batteries 10x, that would be awesome.
- therealdrag0 4y agoIs that because the average age of battery is still young? Haven’t EVs exploded in last 5 years? It’ll take time for replacements to be a significant number relative to EV number.
- elihu 4y ago
- atleastoptimal 4y agoThe moment I read this headline I went straight to comments to find the 20 people decisively declaring it completely useless. Classic HN
- HopenHeyHi 4y ago[flagged]
- jamespo 4y agoWhy should anyone spend their time trying to persuade a 20 day old account on here?
- HopenHeyHi 4y ago[flagged]
- rootusrootus 4y agoHow about instead of relying on the good old "go do your own research" you provide some of those numbers you undoubtedly looked up which you then found convincing enough to be worth a comment on HN?
- m463 4y agoA lot of old ev batteries are snatched up by people who want to use them in whole-house battery systems. I wonder if recycling of ev batteries might be premature for some or many cells?
- jeffbee 4y agoA lot? I bet the number of EV battery packs that have been turned into whole-house batteries by individual homeowners is in the single digits and might be zero.
- rootusrootus 4y ago5 seconds later, here is the first result I found: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/tesla-model-3-full-battery-powerwall.52891/ https://diysolarforum.com/threads/tesla-model-3-full-battery... I've also seen folks on the RV forum using modules (though usually just one, not an entire pack).
- m463 4y agoI think what happens is that a module goes bad, not the whole pack. Also, people don't need 400+ volts and/or $10k of batteries for their house, they need something for the charging system which is typically 12/24/48v
- rootusrootus 4y agoA good BMS can mitigate the loss from individual cells going bad. $10K is on the low side for most people forking out money for powerwall-size systems. The reason some people use old EV batteries is because they're cheaper than buying a bank of LFPs, even when you buy cells in bulk and assemble the batteries yourself. Before the pandemic caused the world to go crazy, people were buying used Chevy Bolts because it was cheaper to buy the car, park it forever, and tap into the battery system than it was to buy batteries by themselves (and the Bolt has a really simple HV battery setup that's easy for a competent DIYer to work with).
- xyst 4y agoIsn’t recycling a myth? I have seen the production of EV batteries. Layered with tons of glue and components to manage the heat. In other words, it’s not just lithium in those batteries. Got to process it, make sure it’s discharged properly, remove non-recyclable materials, then you can start the recycling of the raw materials. Whether this process is more cost prohibitive vs using new materials is what I want to know. As we all know, the O&G industry introduced a petroleum byproduct known as plastic and flooded the market with it. Big promises were made about their “infinite recycle” potential. Not to mention a shit ton of recycling facilities built to process it. Fast forward to today, plastic trash has invaded our entire food chain, polluted the ground and oceans, ruining water ecosystems. Most of the recycling facilities that were built in the 80s and 90s are defunct with responsibility pushed to local municipalities to process. Seems like we are repeating history
- iamleppert 4y agoThis sort of recycling will never be competitive or viable compared with the economies of scale present in the mining industry. It’s just amazing what they will do to completely destroy other competitors (other mines). They aren’t concerned about recyclers and laugh about them because of how small and boutique they are in terms of volumes but I’ve seen companies do things like run a mine at a loss for years to snuff out competitors, or buy up broke recyclers and shut them down or fold them into their current operations (read: defund their budgets and run a skeleton operation) so they can get certain government benefits, comply with regulations all the while protecting the volumes from their mining operations. Investing in recycling means competing directly with the mines which are highly consolidated and incredibly powerful. They do not care about recycling by the nature and culture of their businesses. It’s a fool’s errand and I’ve seen so many investors loose their entire investment over and over again. If you like loosing money, by all means, invest in recycling. At the end of the day these recycling businesses are undesirable —- they are capital intensive, high risk, low yield with a weak consumer market. They are most definitely not carbon neutral in their end to end operations. They don’t even typically provide good paying jobs for the communities they serve because the unit economics are so poor. The only 10+ year surviving companies exist almost entirely on government subsidies and aren’t real businesses. Communities don’t want them either so that’s why they are always in the middle of nowhere. All the private activities are all the same — typically some VC or rich investor will pair up with a charismatic founders and try to do it because hey environment I feel good doing good. But then just wait a few years when they get tired of shoveling money in by the truckload. The joke goes for every $1 of material recycled, $10 of cash is burned.
- alkonaut 4y agoQuick searches seem to suggest the processing is about $100 per ton with resulting materials worth several times that. Do you have any figures comparing mining vs recycling for these materials? And more interestingly, trends for those numbers? I imagine the recycling costs will improve due to increasing supply of input materials while the cost of mining will remain the same or even increase (as available resources shrink)?
- jojobas 4y agoWhich bears the question- how different are spent batteries from refined lithium ore? Can you just mix them into the ore at 1-10 parts per 100?
- dwat3r 4y agoall this hassle for EVs instead of building more railways and end the R1 zoning...