4 ms·

> I prefer someone blunt and clear who will say what they mean. I don’t care if they don’t say it in the nicest of ways, as long as they say it. Speak your hear

by FabHK 4y ago

> I prefer someone blunt and clear who will say what they mean. I don’t care if they don’t say it in the nicest of ways, as long as they say it. Speak your heart! If that's the author's preference (fair enough), then Japan is not the right place for them (in that respect). Intercultural Communication 101. Either learn to deal with it and stop taking it personally, or move somewhere else. (Or, sure, go on a one-person quest to change Japanese culture - what could go wrong.)

oh_sigh 4y ago
And the fact is Japanese people have no problem understanding what people are really saying. Things can be bluntly stated in Japanese even if their direct transliteration isn't blunt in English.
- timr 4y ago
  That's not true. There's no magical bat-signal that only Japanese people can read, and there are lots of contexts that even Japanese people talk about as ridiculously subtle to the point of fiendishness (funny example: I think it's at Bishamon-do temple in Kyoto, where there's a room that was used to "greet" guests who had no chance of meeting with anyone of importance -- the way you "knew" this was because the fusuma paintings all had subtle errors, like animals out of season for the scene. You were just allowed to sit there until you got the message. Obviously this is historical, but it's hilariously "Kyoto", which is itself known across Japan for being maddeningly indirect. The meta-point is that they describe this during the audio tour of the temple, and Japanese people are always amused by how subtle it is.) The primary "you need to understand this" difference about Japan rejection, IME, is that Japanese people readily accept anything other than an explicit yes as a clear no. Your average westerner tends to be really delusional about this, and the even the ones who accept it (like the author, apparently) are still hurt when it happens. Like, this sentence: > “I’m sick today. I can’t make the lesson. I’ll contact you later” Is practically a cliché of a Japanese rejection. This is a country where people will show up to an obligation half-dead, and absolutely never cancel something important at the last minute. If someone flakes on you with an excuse of sickness -- particularly if they don't apologize PROFUSELY and attempt to reschedule -- just accept that it's done. Anyone who has been in the country more than a few weeks has experienced this, and you'd have to be willfully obtuse not to pick it up. (to be clear: I don't think OP is being obtuse. I think she's venting for catharsis, which is fine.)
  - seandoe 4y ago
    What do they say if they are really sick, can't make the lesson, and will indeed contact you later?
    - ambicapter 4y ago
      GP mentioned it; they apologize profusely.
      - copperx 4y ago
        I'm curious about what constitutes a profuse apology. Does it include long explanations? Or does it take into account how the other party was inconvenienced? I'd love to know this. Are there any great books about Japanese culture?
        t-3 4y ago
        I'd imagine it's the difference between businesslike sorry-not-sorry stuff like: "We're sorry to inform you that we are not moving ahead with your application", and actually trying to apologize to someone. The not-actually-apologetic stuff is basically just normal parts of polite speech for the culture, actual apology with emotion or intent to make redress or request forgiveness is very different.
  - FabHK 4y ago
    Sure, there'll be a gray zone of ambiguity in Japan, just as there is elsewhere. And it might even be larger (in some sense - how could one measure it?). But as you point out, there certainly are utterances in some circumstances that Japanese will understand as a clear "no" (for example), yet a word-for-word translation to English would be interpreted in English as "maybe" or "sounds good". (I am reminded of this wonderful phrase book between British English and "Dutch" English: https://www.economist.com/johnson/2011/05/27/this-may-interest-you https://www.economist.com/johnson/2011/05/27/this-may-intere... )
    - 4y ago
- Eisenstein 4y ago
  Transliteration means taking the symbols of one readable language and converting them to another set of symbols. Like 'Владимир Ильич Ульянов' in Russian Cyrillic becoming 'Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov' in English Latin script. I think what you meant was 'literal translation'. Sorry if this seems like a nitpick but these terms mean completely different things.
Marqin 4y ago
She said in the article she would move out if not her partner
bsder 4y ago
> Either learn to deal with it and stop taking it personally, or move somewhere else. To be fair, I would expect that HN would have a bit more sympathy for the fact that the ambiguity means that she has to hold open a "schedule slot" that she could otherwise sell to somebody else. My friend teaches guitar and has to deal with this all the time. "I'd like to cancel the lesson." "That's great, but you still need to pay for it." "WHAT!?!?" "Look. You aren't just paying for being taught guitar. You are also paying for that 4:00PM Wednesday time slot that everybody in the universe wants."

by FabHK 4y ago

oh_sigh 4y ago

And the fact is Japanese people have no problem understanding what people are really saying. Things can be bluntly stated in Japanese even if their direct transliteration isn't blunt in English.

timr 4y ago
That's not true. There's no magical bat-signal that only Japanese people can read, and there are lots of contexts that even Japanese people talk about as ridiculously subtle to the point of fiendishness (funny example: I think it's at Bishamon-do temple in Kyoto, where there's a room that was used to "greet" guests who had no chance of meeting with anyone of importance -- the way you "knew" this was because the fusuma paintings all had subtle errors, like animals out of season for the scene. You were just allowed to sit there until you got the message. Obviously this is historical, but it's hilariously "Kyoto", which is itself known across Japan for being maddeningly indirect. The meta-point is that they describe this during the audio tour of the temple, and Japanese people are always amused by how subtle it is.) The primary "you need to understand this" difference about Japan rejection, IME, is that Japanese people readily accept anything other than an explicit yes as a clear no. Your average westerner tends to be really delusional about this, and the even the ones who accept it (like the author, apparently) are still hurt when it happens. Like, this sentence: > “I’m sick today. I can’t make the lesson. I’ll contact you later” Is practically a cliché of a Japanese rejection. This is a country where people will show up to an obligation half-dead, and absolutely never cancel something important at the last minute. If someone flakes on you with an excuse of sickness -- particularly if they don't apologize PROFUSELY and attempt to reschedule -- just accept that it's done. Anyone who has been in the country more than a few weeks has experienced this, and you'd have to be willfully obtuse not to pick it up. (to be clear: I don't think OP is being obtuse. I think she's venting for catharsis, which is fine.)
- seandoe 4y ago
  What do they say if they are really sick, can't make the lesson, and will indeed contact you later?
  - ambicapter 4y ago
    GP mentioned it; they apologize profusely.
    - copperx 4y ago
      I'm curious about what constitutes a profuse apology. Does it include long explanations? Or does it take into account how the other party was inconvenienced? I'd love to know this. Are there any great books about Japanese culture?
      - t-3 4y ago
        I'd imagine it's the difference between businesslike sorry-not-sorry stuff like: "We're sorry to inform you that we are not moving ahead with your application", and actually trying to apologize to someone. The not-actually-apologetic stuff is basically just normal parts of polite speech for the culture, actual apology with emotion or intent to make redress or request forgiveness is very different.
- FabHK 4y ago
  Sure, there'll be a gray zone of ambiguity in Japan, just as there is elsewhere. And it might even be larger (in some sense - how could one measure it?). But as you point out, there certainly are utterances in some circumstances that Japanese will understand as a clear "no" (for example), yet a word-for-word translation to English would be interpreted in English as "maybe" or "sounds good". (I am reminded of this wonderful phrase book between British English and "Dutch" English: https://www.economist.com/johnson/2011/05/27/this-may-interest-you https://www.economist.com/johnson/2011/05/27/this-may-intere... )
  - 4y ago
Eisenstein 4y ago
Transliteration means taking the symbols of one readable language and converting them to another set of symbols. Like 'Владимир Ильич Ульянов' in Russian Cyrillic becoming 'Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov' in English Latin script. I think what you meant was 'literal translation'. Sorry if this seems like a nitpick but these terms mean completely different things.

Marqin 4y ago

She said in the article she would move out if not her partner

bsder 4y ago

> Either learn to deal with it and stop taking it personally, or move somewhere else. To be fair, I would expect that HN would have a bit more sympathy for the fact that the ambiguity means that she has to hold open a "schedule slot" that she could otherwise sell to somebody else. My friend teaches guitar and has to deal with this all the time. "I'd like to cancel the lesson." "That's great, but you still need to pay for it." "WHAT!?!?" "Look. You aren't just paying for being taught guitar. You are also paying for that 4:00PM Wednesday time slot that everybody in the universe wants."