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It always seems that we discover artifacts that push history farther back. Göbekli Tepe is 12,000 years old and I doubt hunter gatherers made this. I think soph

It always seems that we discover artifacts that push history farther back. Göbekli Tepe is 12,000 years old and I doubt hunter gatherers made this. I think sophisticated societies existed well past what we have discovered, but time has made it exponentially difficult to get historical proof except in bits and pieces.

api 4y ago
I think of it this way: time is like space. Things far back in time are like things orbiting distant stars. Go too far and telescopes can no longer see. This is made more real by the fact that the Earth is a boiling cauldron of plate tectonics, weather, and biological processes. It doesn’t take long for all traces of something to be obliterated. Maybe we think the first great civilizations were in the desert just because things decay slower in the desert.
astrange 4y ago
Hunter-gatherers can make permanent sites for "ritual use" where they occasionally all meet up and then go back to being nomadic afterward.
- nradov 4y ago
  Sure, but the notion that hunter-gatherers built something as large and complex as Göbekli Tepe seems unlikely. Construction required a sustained effort by expert craftspeople over many years. They would have needed a higher level of organization and more surplus resources than primitive hunter-gatherers could sustain.
  - astrange 4y ago
    I mean, I think this is part tautological because you've defined them as primitive and not craftspeople. Couldn't they be non-primitive but largely nomadic craftspeople? (Gokebli Tepe in particular has evidence of processing of grains, but not large scale farming of them, and they might have only settled there for part of the year.)
    - nradov 4y ago
      How exactly could nomadic people develop advanced masonry skills? Are there any proven examples of nomadic people building large, complex permanent structures? What were all the architects and construction workers eating at the job site?
      - jvb1000 4y ago
        Göbekli Tepe is the evidence unless you've found evidence that they were a complex agricultural society
      - hutzlibu 4y ago
        "How exactly could nomadic people develop advanced masonry skills?" By being half nomadic. When you move around and set up camp often and build temporary structures out of wood, there is opportunity to learn masonry. And when you often visit the same places, and evertime you add something permanent and more lasting, then specialists will develope. Nomadic people were usually not changing place everyday. They changed places, once the game in the area were exhausted or the temperature became too cold/warm. But next year, they come back to a good spot. And so over the years important spots can get sophisticated buildings.
        defrost 4y ago
        There are thousands of remnant river and ocean rock walled fish traps all across Australia, some were very large and they all received a bit of annual touch up and modification for thousands of years .. until Europeans with river boats blasted many to clear passage and pushed off their traditional owners to reservations or worse. eg: https://www.mpra.com.au/brewarrina-fish-traps https://www.mpra.com.au/brewarrina-fish-traps
      - dopidopHN 4y ago
        The same way as non nomadic people. I think your missing the spectrum aspect of that scale. To your question, the pyramids structure of poverty points, in norther Louisiana have been built by nomadic people The architect and construction worker seems to have eat a mix of fishes, primitive rice and a local tubercule close to sweet potatoes. ( from the poverty point excavation )
  - jvb1000 4y ago
    Or maybe your assumptions about agriculture/surplus/specialization are wrong. I'd start by digging deeper into existing evidence instead of evidence free speculation of complex agricultural societies lost to time.
Falkon1313 4y ago
People often make the assumption that everyone was just roaming primitive hunter-gatherer cavemen chasing deer across the plains until one day somebody just happened to suggest "Hey, why don't we stop here, start some large-scale intensive agriculture, and build a city?" That's beyond extremely unlikely. People lived in villages sustained by horticulture, fishing, local hunting and gathering, and pastoral herding long before intensive agriculture. Probably at least 5,000-10,000 years before. They could certainly have built other things if they had a use for them, and would use them long enough to make it worthwhile. Those that migrated seasonally from one village to another, year after year, might have done so.
dopidopHN 4y ago
Gobekli tepe might very well have been built by hunter gatherer. There is no existence of agriculture on site. Poverty Point in Louisiana is another example of temple complex without the city to sustain them. Why do you assume hunter gatherer could not archive this level of complexity?

api 4y ago

I think of it this way: time is like space. Things far back in time are like things orbiting distant stars. Go too far and telescopes can no longer see. This is made more real by the fact that the Earth is a boiling cauldron of plate tectonics, weather, and biological processes. It doesn’t take long for all traces of something to be obliterated. Maybe we think the first great civilizations were in the desert just because things decay slower in the desert.

astrange 4y ago

Hunter-gatherers can make permanent sites for "ritual use" where they occasionally all meet up and then go back to being nomadic afterward.

nradov 4y ago
Sure, but the notion that hunter-gatherers built something as large and complex as Göbekli Tepe seems unlikely. Construction required a sustained effort by expert craftspeople over many years. They would have needed a higher level of organization and more surplus resources than primitive hunter-gatherers could sustain.
- astrange 4y ago
  I mean, I think this is part tautological because you've defined them as primitive and not craftspeople. Couldn't they be non-primitive but largely nomadic craftspeople? (Gokebli Tepe in particular has evidence of processing of grains, but not large scale farming of them, and they might have only settled there for part of the year.)
  - nradov 4y ago
    How exactly could nomadic people develop advanced masonry skills? Are there any proven examples of nomadic people building large, complex permanent structures? What were all the architects and construction workers eating at the job site?
    - jvb1000 4y ago
      Göbekli Tepe is the evidence unless you've found evidence that they were a complex agricultural society
    - hutzlibu 4y ago
      "How exactly could nomadic people develop advanced masonry skills?" By being half nomadic. When you move around and set up camp often and build temporary structures out of wood, there is opportunity to learn masonry. And when you often visit the same places, and evertime you add something permanent and more lasting, then specialists will develope. Nomadic people were usually not changing place everyday. They changed places, once the game in the area were exhausted or the temperature became too cold/warm. But next year, they come back to a good spot. And so over the years important spots can get sophisticated buildings.
      - defrost 4y ago
        There are thousands of remnant river and ocean rock walled fish traps all across Australia, some were very large and they all received a bit of annual touch up and modification for thousands of years .. until Europeans with river boats blasted many to clear passage and pushed off their traditional owners to reservations or worse. eg: https://www.mpra.com.au/brewarrina-fish-traps https://www.mpra.com.au/brewarrina-fish-traps
    - dopidopHN 4y ago
      The same way as non nomadic people. I think your missing the spectrum aspect of that scale. To your question, the pyramids structure of poverty points, in norther Louisiana have been built by nomadic people The architect and construction worker seems to have eat a mix of fishes, primitive rice and a local tubercule close to sweet potatoes. ( from the poverty point excavation )
- jvb1000 4y ago
  Or maybe your assumptions about agriculture/surplus/specialization are wrong. I'd start by digging deeper into existing evidence instead of evidence free speculation of complex agricultural societies lost to time.

Falkon1313 4y ago

People often make the assumption that everyone was just roaming primitive hunter-gatherer cavemen chasing deer across the plains until one day somebody just happened to suggest "Hey, why don't we stop here, start some large-scale intensive agriculture, and build a city?" That's beyond extremely unlikely. People lived in villages sustained by horticulture, fishing, local hunting and gathering, and pastoral herding long before intensive agriculture. Probably at least 5,000-10,000 years before. They could certainly have built other things if they had a use for them, and would use them long enough to make it worthwhile. Those that migrated seasonally from one village to another, year after year, might have done so.

dopidopHN 4y ago

Gobekli tepe might very well have been built by hunter gatherer. There is no existence of agriculture on site. Poverty Point in Louisiana is another example of temple complex without the city to sustain them. Why do you assume hunter gatherer could not archive this level of complexity?