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> Michael S. Regan, the administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency, is expected to announce the proposed limits on tailpipe emissions on Wednesday in

> Michael S. Regan, the administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency, is expected to announce the proposed limits on tailpipe emissions on Wednesday in Detroit. The requirements would be intended to ensure that electric cars represent between 54 and 60 percent of all new cars sold in the United States by 2030, with that figure rising to 64 to 67 percent of new car sales by 2032, according to the people familiar with the details, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the information had not been made public. They are not going to get the adoption they want because they are attacking from the wrong angle. Their new regulations intend to drive down the number of ICE cars being made and drive up EV production, but the issue with EV's is all in their price, and this regulation does nothing to address that. Most folks (especially in this economy), cannot afford to spend $50k+ on a new EV, this is why used car sales have been so steadily high, folks just can't afford these new expensive cars. I see this regulation backfiring, all it's going to do is keep older cars on the road longer.

lockhouse 4y ago
Not just the price. Really the infrastructure is the biggest problem. How do I go on a road trip from Miami to Seattle without very carefully planning around public charging stations and spending lots of extra time sitting around waiting on my EV to charge? With an ICE vehicle, refueling is practically an after thought. It’s even worse if you’re planning on hauling a trailer with an electric pickup truck. We are definitely putting the cart before the horse on this.
- dalyons 4y ago
  This is such a tired repeated take. More EVs == more demand for charging stations == lots of businesses and tech rising to fill the charging needs, to make money. It will solve itself, it’s basic market forces.
  - lockhouse 4y ago
    I think you severely underestimate the amount of financial investment that would be required if even a quarter of the current cars on the road were EVs, much of it needed in our already strained electric grids that go out during extreme heat and cold. We’re not even close to the point where EVs are a viable solution for most people. Particularly those living in rural areas.
    - lostlogin 4y ago
      Charging at home is trivial and requires no infrastructure. It’s an improvement on going to a petrol station. Long haul trips are the tricky bit, but that’s surely not that hard to solve.
      - pg938hkd 4y ago
        It actually will require additional infrastructure or at least some changes to metering to encourage nightly charging instead of at like 5pm
        lostlogin 4y ago
        Don’t all EV cars have timers built in? My low end model does. It’s also only charging at the rate of a standard wall socket, so I’m not sure the grid cares that much.
        pg938hkd 4y ago
        Maybe we never set ours up. No reason to do that unless the utility changes rates based on time of use
        lostlogin 4y ago
        This is very much a thing where I live in New Zealand. I’m sure that I could save money by tailoring usage better, but ‘cheaper overnight’ is about all I know about it.
- klyrs 4y ago
  In the early '00s, refueling was not an afterthought when roadtripping through the southwest. Driving a car with a broken gas gauge made that really fun. If you see a "last gas for 150mi" sign, you know the gas is going to be marked up at least $1/gal... buy now or risk it? Today I drive a long-range EV, and level 3 chargers are pretty amazing. I can get a few hundred miles' charge in ~20 minutes. That's about the amount of time that I like to get out of my car to stay alert anyway. Granted, level 3 chargers are still pretty rare, but in Canada where I live now, Petro-Canada has seen the writing on the wall, and they're installing level 3 chargers at their gas stations.
  - lockhouse 4y ago
    At least in the United States there are still many parts of the country without any public charging stations at all, much less level 3 fast charging ones. https://chargefinder.com/us/search https://chargefinder.com/us/search
    - klyrs 4y ago
      > the proposal is designed to ensure that electric cars make up the majority of new U.S. auto sales by 2032 With a 9-year horizon on this policy, there is lots of time and motivation to build out charging infrastructure. The lack of charging infrastructure today is not a good reason to be stuck on oil for the indefinite future.
      - sieabahlpark 4y ago
        [dead]
- slaw 4y ago
  It is not infrastructure. There is not enough progress in battery cell density. For example iPhone 5 (2012) battery density is 0.218 Wh/g, iPhone 13 (2021) battery density is 0.26 Wh/g.
- nicpottier 4y ago
  I drove from Seattle to Denver with no planning (Tesla) and it was fine? It added about four hours to the trip as I recall but the car told me where to stop and charge etc.. EVs aren't the best road trip vehicle but that's ok, I don't road trip every day. They absolutely are the best 99% daily vehicle though if you have home charging. Nothing is the best at everything, the EV compromise is pretty darn acceptable though. (that said, PHEVs with 80 miles of range would be even better)
- 1123581321 4y ago
  Is there a way you can drive for a few hours in an EV with someone? I think you may need to experience the trip planning tools to understand how preoccupying they are in practice.
  - zamnos 4y ago
    GetAround, Turo, and the traditional car rental places will rent you a Tesla, but you can also go to a store and pretend to buy one for an evening (in participating states), but that would require effort and a willingness to challenge preconceived notions. Which if you're already convinced you're right about electric cars, and who wouldn't be, if they're using such a tired old take; it just ain't happening.
- inamberclad 4y ago
  Unless we want to add regulatory requirements like that new construction should include EV charging, it's going to be hard to provide a motivation for building infrastructure. Increasing demand is a surefire way to speed this development along.
- marssaxman 4y ago
  > How do I go on a road trip from Miami to Seattle You could rent a gas-powered car for the trip. But how often are you ever going to do that? Most of us make a trip like that rarely, or never; I have driven coast-to-coast exactly once in my life. > We are definitely putting the cart before the horse on this. Greater demand will provide an economic incentive to invest in greater supply.
  - thanks4tip 4y ago
    Also … it’s not like they are targeting 100% EV. So you just don’t buy an EV. It’s pretty simple. You hear the same nonsense when it comes to riding bikes. There’s always some reason someone can’t ride bikes / drive an EV / walk more / whatever, and that means we shouldn’t make any changes ever. So dumb.
- rcme 4y ago
  > How do I go on a road trip from Miami to Seattle without very carefully planning around public charging stations and spending lots of extra time sitting around waiting on my EV to charge? How often do people do that? For this kind of trip, it's honestly better to rent a car anyway. You don't need to drive back, which is nice. Also, such a drive is generally pretty hard on your car. It's better to do it in someone else's car.
- m463 4y ago
  This is completely practical today if you have a tesla via the supercharger network. If you navigate, it will calculate an optimized route that tells you where to stop to charge and for how long. Over the past few years, I've noticed that many superchargers now have competing CCS networks nearby. Also, tesla has been opening up superchargers, and the other day I used one that can charge either tesla or CCS vehicles (via the "Magic Dock"). By the time this legislation starts getting traction, it will be possible and practical.
elviejo 4y ago
Just to confirm your point about price: On Norway they did give tax breaks for electric cars and raised taxes for gasoline/diesel cars, so making them comparable in terms of price. For more info see: How Norway killed the petrol car. https://youtu.be/OJtzuZIO-88 https://youtu.be/OJtzuZIO-88
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
throwaway6734 4y ago
It's signaling to car manufacturers which direction they should head in. More production will lower prices.
- _fat_santa 4y ago
  I get that line of thinking, tell automakers that X% of their cars must be EV and let them figure out the unit economics so their sales don't plummet. I can see that working, but I'm skeptical.
renewiltord 4y ago
Is that really true? Average down payment is about $7k and average monthly payment about $700. That puts average car price on a 72 month loan at about $45k. I would never pay that much but that is it.
zug_zug 4y ago
Is that true? The average new-car price in America is a shocking $49k (partly because people are willing to take out 7-year autoloans). For that price you can get an electric: Ford, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, Nissan, Tesla, or Volkswagen.
- pg938hkd 4y ago
  If you can get it. Wait times are 3-6 months sometimes 2 years
matthewdgreen 4y ago
The average new car price is $50K as of January 2023, with the median on some websites around $42k. New cars are expensive.
landemva 4y ago
> Their new regulations intend to drive down the number of ICE cars This is a time-tested EPA approach which increases cost and complexity due to enhanced engine management, exhaust recirculation and exhaust treatments, and partial hybrids. The computers run heavy equipment diesels and you need a shop computer to successfully swap fuel injectors. Don't think about trying to swap exhaust treatment components without being the dealer, because serial numbers are tracked and enforced with huge core charges. Particulates are down dramatically. Gassers are not diesels and gassers are already burning quite clean. From a societal health standpoint, is this where resources are best applied?

lockhouse 4y ago

Not just the price. Really the infrastructure is the biggest problem. How do I go on a road trip from Miami to Seattle without very carefully planning around public charging stations and spending lots of extra time sitting around waiting on my EV to charge? With an ICE vehicle, refueling is practically an after thought. It’s even worse if you’re planning on hauling a trailer with an electric pickup truck. We are definitely putting the cart before the horse on this.

dalyons 4y ago
This is such a tired repeated take. More EVs == more demand for charging stations == lots of businesses and tech rising to fill the charging needs, to make money. It will solve itself, it’s basic market forces.
- lockhouse 4y ago
  I think you severely underestimate the amount of financial investment that would be required if even a quarter of the current cars on the road were EVs, much of it needed in our already strained electric grids that go out during extreme heat and cold. We’re not even close to the point where EVs are a viable solution for most people. Particularly those living in rural areas.
  - lostlogin 4y ago
    Charging at home is trivial and requires no infrastructure. It’s an improvement on going to a petrol station. Long haul trips are the tricky bit, but that’s surely not that hard to solve.
    - pg938hkd 4y ago
      It actually will require additional infrastructure or at least some changes to metering to encourage nightly charging instead of at like 5pm
      - lostlogin 4y ago
        Don’t all EV cars have timers built in? My low end model does. It’s also only charging at the rate of a standard wall socket, so I’m not sure the grid cares that much.
        pg938hkd 4y ago
        Maybe we never set ours up. No reason to do that unless the utility changes rates based on time of use
        lostlogin 4y ago
        This is very much a thing where I live in New Zealand. I’m sure that I could save money by tailoring usage better, but ‘cheaper overnight’ is about all I know about it.
klyrs 4y ago
In the early '00s, refueling was not an afterthought when roadtripping through the southwest. Driving a car with a broken gas gauge made that really fun. If you see a "last gas for 150mi" sign, you know the gas is going to be marked up at least $1/gal... buy now or risk it? Today I drive a long-range EV, and level 3 chargers are pretty amazing. I can get a few hundred miles' charge in ~20 minutes. That's about the amount of time that I like to get out of my car to stay alert anyway. Granted, level 3 chargers are still pretty rare, but in Canada where I live now, Petro-Canada has seen the writing on the wall, and they're installing level 3 chargers at their gas stations.
- lockhouse 4y ago
  At least in the United States there are still many parts of the country without any public charging stations at all, much less level 3 fast charging ones. https://chargefinder.com/us/search https://chargefinder.com/us/search
  - klyrs 4y ago
    > the proposal is designed to ensure that electric cars make up the majority of new U.S. auto sales by 2032 With a 9-year horizon on this policy, there is lots of time and motivation to build out charging infrastructure. The lack of charging infrastructure today is not a good reason to be stuck on oil for the indefinite future.
    - sieabahlpark 4y ago
      [dead]
slaw 4y ago
It is not infrastructure. There is not enough progress in battery cell density. For example iPhone 5 (2012) battery density is 0.218 Wh/g, iPhone 13 (2021) battery density is 0.26 Wh/g.
nicpottier 4y ago
I drove from Seattle to Denver with no planning (Tesla) and it was fine? It added about four hours to the trip as I recall but the car told me where to stop and charge etc.. EVs aren't the best road trip vehicle but that's ok, I don't road trip every day. They absolutely are the best 99% daily vehicle though if you have home charging. Nothing is the best at everything, the EV compromise is pretty darn acceptable though. (that said, PHEVs with 80 miles of range would be even better)
1123581321 4y ago
Is there a way you can drive for a few hours in an EV with someone? I think you may need to experience the trip planning tools to understand how preoccupying they are in practice.
- zamnos 4y ago
  GetAround, Turo, and the traditional car rental places will rent you a Tesla, but you can also go to a store and pretend to buy one for an evening (in participating states), but that would require effort and a willingness to challenge preconceived notions. Which if you're already convinced you're right about electric cars, and who wouldn't be, if they're using such a tired old take; it just ain't happening.
inamberclad 4y ago
Unless we want to add regulatory requirements like that new construction should include EV charging, it's going to be hard to provide a motivation for building infrastructure. Increasing demand is a surefire way to speed this development along.
marssaxman 4y ago
> How do I go on a road trip from Miami to Seattle You could rent a gas-powered car for the trip. But how often are you ever going to do that? Most of us make a trip like that rarely, or never; I have driven coast-to-coast exactly once in my life. > We are definitely putting the cart before the horse on this. Greater demand will provide an economic incentive to invest in greater supply.
- thanks4tip 4y ago
  Also … it’s not like they are targeting 100% EV. So you just don’t buy an EV. It’s pretty simple. You hear the same nonsense when it comes to riding bikes. There’s always some reason someone can’t ride bikes / drive an EV / walk more / whatever, and that means we shouldn’t make any changes ever. So dumb.
rcme 4y ago
> How do I go on a road trip from Miami to Seattle without very carefully planning around public charging stations and spending lots of extra time sitting around waiting on my EV to charge? How often do people do that? For this kind of trip, it's honestly better to rent a car anyway. You don't need to drive back, which is nice. Also, such a drive is generally pretty hard on your car. It's better to do it in someone else's car.
m463 4y ago
This is completely practical today if you have a tesla via the supercharger network. If you navigate, it will calculate an optimized route that tells you where to stop to charge and for how long. Over the past few years, I've noticed that many superchargers now have competing CCS networks nearby. Also, tesla has been opening up superchargers, and the other day I used one that can charge either tesla or CCS vehicles (via the "Magic Dock"). By the time this legislation starts getting traction, it will be possible and practical.

elviejo 4y ago

Just to confirm your point about price: On Norway they did give tax breaks for electric cars and raised taxes for gasoline/diesel cars, so making them comparable in terms of price. For more info see: How Norway killed the petrol car. https://youtu.be/OJtzuZIO-88 https://youtu.be/OJtzuZIO-88

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

throwaway6734 4y ago

It's signaling to car manufacturers which direction they should head in. More production will lower prices.

_fat_santa 4y ago
I get that line of thinking, tell automakers that X% of their cars must be EV and let them figure out the unit economics so their sales don't plummet. I can see that working, but I'm skeptical.

renewiltord 4y ago

Is that really true? Average down payment is about $7k and average monthly payment about $700. That puts average car price on a 72 month loan at about $45k. I would never pay that much but that is it.

zug_zug 4y ago

Is that true? The average new-car price in America is a shocking $49k (partly because people are willing to take out 7-year autoloans). For that price you can get an electric: Ford, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, Nissan, Tesla, or Volkswagen.

pg938hkd 4y ago
If you can get it. Wait times are 3-6 months sometimes 2 years

matthewdgreen 4y ago

The average new car price is $50K as of January 2023, with the median on some websites around $42k. New cars are expensive.

landemva 4y ago

> Their new regulations intend to drive down the number of ICE cars This is a time-tested EPA approach which increases cost and complexity due to enhanced engine management, exhaust recirculation and exhaust treatments, and partial hybrids. The computers run heavy equipment diesels and you need a shop computer to successfully swap fuel injectors. Don't think about trying to swap exhaust treatment components without being the dealer, because serial numbers are tracked and enforced with huge core charges. Particulates are down dramatically. Gassers are not diesels and gassers are already burning quite clean. From a societal health standpoint, is this where resources are best applied?