6 ms·

I wonder if this has to do with changes to curricula.

by ajhurliman 4y ago

rayiner 4y ago
[flagged]
- andrekandre 4y ago
  from chapter 1 of the book you linked: > At its core, the field of ethnic studies is the interdisciplinary study of race, ethnicity, and Indigeneity, with an emphasis on the experiences of people of color in the United States. People or person of color is a term used primarily in the United States and is meant to be inclusive among non-white groups > Furthermore, considering that European American-centered history and cultures are already robustly taught in the school curriculum, ethnic studies presents an opportunity for more inclusive and diverse histories and cultures to be highlighted and studied in a manner that is meaningful and can be transformative for all students. ------------- > Italian and German kids, by contrast, are not taught about the discrimination against those groups—even though German and Italian Americans today mostly are descended from 19th and 20th century immigrants who came here in poverty and faced discrimination, while most Asian Americans came here after 1990. firstly, why the concentration on discrimination? ethnic studies covers much more than that... also, the reason they don't cover groups that are considered "white" is because as stated above, in regular american history those history of italians/germans/irish are covered there well, but things like the chinese exclusion act, or railroad workers usually get about a paragraph or so in regular history (speaking of my own experience anyways) so adding more context and depth is good no? > It's a naked attempt to socialize "children of color" into identifying as oppressed minorities. maybe, maybe not, but whats your alternative? don't teach history of generally ignored groups in ethnic studies?
  - rayiner 4y ago
    > firstly, why the concentration on discrimination? Ask that to the people who put together the model ethnic studies curriculum! If you look at the sample lessons for Asians, almost all are about discrimination, exclusion, etc. > ethnic studies covers much more than that... In theory, yes, in practice, no. You can’t realistically expect white Americans to teach Indian or Chinese kids about their own cultures and experiences. So the focus tends to be on how white Americans relate to minorities, which in liberal states like California tends to be through the lens of white guilt. That’s how you end up with a curriculum that’s all about discrimination. > also, the reason they don't cover groups that are considered "white" is because as stated above, in regular american history those history of italians/germans/irish are covered there well We didn’t cover German, Italian, and Irish immigration in K-12. Maybe we spent a day talking about Ellis Island. More importantly, we never learned anything about the discrimination against those groups. There is a clear dichotomy: white kids are not taught ethnic identity, and are not taught to identify with the struggles of and discrimination against their immigrant ancestors. Minority kids, by contrast, are taught to be conscious of their race and ethnicity, and are taught to identify with the struggles of Asians or Hispanics that in most cases they aren’t even descended from. This dichotomy is historically inaccurate. For example, if you really want to understand how say Hispanics fit into America—economically, socially, and culturally—the closest analogy is to Italians. But in California, Italian kids are taught something completely different about their identity than Hispanic kids. Separating non-white immigrants from previous generations of immigrants paints a misleading picture of the immigrant experience. This dichotomy is also bad for minority kids. It socializes them to think of themselves as victims without agency, who are acted upon by white people who have agency. It’s othering—you have white teachers talking about what “we” did to “you.” And it’s enormously demotivating for kids to be told that they have the decked stacked against them because of your skin color. > maybe, maybe not, but whats your alternative? don't teach history of generally ignored groups in ethnic studies? Yes. My kids don’t need to learn Asian American history from some white lady. And they certainly don’t need their white friends being socialized to think of them as being somehow different. I don’t care how good the intentions are—teachers highlighting differences isn’t a good thing for visible minorities. And if we insist on doing so, we should strive to be accurate. If you’re going to teach about the Chinese Exclusion Act, also teach the German American kids about when states banned the teaching of German. Teach Italian and Irish kids about anti-Catholic school legislation.
    - selimthegrim 4y ago
      > about when states banned the teaching of German. Teach Italian and Irish kids about anti-Catholic school legislation. This is done in the Midwest all the time (Know-Nothing party, etc in US history)
    - andrekandre 4y ago
      thanks for the thoughtful reply i mostly agree with the most of your reasoning, i guess for me i don't see it as a huge issue personally... i come from a mixed background so learning about how my ancestors were treated didn't make me feel victimized... but n=1 and all that i'd like to see some studies about these things than just our personal experiences tbh > We didn’t cover German, Italian, and Irish immigration in K-12. Maybe we spent a day talking about Ellis Island. More importantly, we never learned anything about the discrimination against those groups. its hard to discuss this because curriculum varies widely depending on where you went to school (for me these were quite thoroughly covered), again it would be good to have some studies/data > If you’re going to teach about the Chinese Exclusion Act, also teach the German American kids about when states banned the teaching of German. Teach Italian and Irish kids about anti-Catholic school legislation. i think thats totally fair > My kids don’t need to learn Asian American history from some white lady. while i can totally understand this feeling (i've thought this myself at times) how do you know a priori the teacher will be white? and furthermore, does it really matter in the end as long as they are fair?
      - rayiner 4y ago
        > while i can totally understand this feeling (i've thought this myself at times) how do you know a priori the teacher will be white? and furthermore, does it really matter in the end as long as they are fair? 80% of public school teachers are white, and outside majority-minority schools, it’s 90%+. And I think for this issue, it makes a difference. Parents of white kids have a fundamentally different stake in these issues than parents of minority kids. As a parent of brown kids, my concern is about ensuring their success in a society where they will always be visibly different. I don’t think it’s an especially racist society, but being different is always a liability. (And if it was as racist a country as many white people say it is, that would be even more reason to teach my kids to keep their heads down and their mouths shut!) By contrast, in my experience, white people overwhelmingly think of these issues in terms of what they want their white kids to learn about how to treat “other people.”
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- gamblor956 4y ago
  You might be mixing up your Germans with your Irish, were absolutely subject to discrimination when they first moved here. This discrimination was fundamental to the development of Irish American enclaves in many cities, including especially NY and Chicago. German immigrants were subject to some, but significantly less discrimination owing to their shared Protestant backgrounds with the majority English Protestant descendants comprising of the American upper class. But more to the point: almost no German Americans were imprisoned during WWII despite many of them providing intelligence to the Nazis. OTOH, nearly every Japanese American on the West Coast was incarcerated in Manzanar and their property and businesses confiscated.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    There were under 150,000 Japanese Americans in the 1940s. There’s 1.4 million Japanese Americans, and despite being one of the oldest Asian American groups, the vast majority of those came here or are descended from people who came here in the latter half of the 20th century. German Americans were treated better than the Japanese, though I think you’re overstating the significance of Protestantism. A large fraction of German Americans are Catholic. More significant is that Germans by then were a large, well established immigrant group. They made up almost 9% of the population in the 1790 census. By 1920 there were 9 million German Americans. Even still, the discrimination they faced was far worse than what say Muslims faced during the war on terror: https://www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entries/german-americans-during-world-war-i/ https://www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entries/german-ame....
- Spivak 4y ago
  > socialize them to understand their ethnic identity in terms of American slavery. This is historical context for why these groups are still face discrimination today. Someone who's racist has no idea if you're a recent immigrant from Nigeria, you will face the exact same discrimination as a descendant of slaves. This is the public education equivalent of "the talk" parents have to have with their kids for why they're treated differently. One of my good friends is a second generation immigrant from Thailand and in white suburbia in the 80s her mom was told to go back to China. Even people totally disconnected from the historical acts of discrimination are affected by it. The "standard" US history curriculum is comically bad, come over on my Mayflower, have Thanksgiving with the Indians, Taxation Without Representation, Tea Party, The Federalist Papers, The Constitution, slavery, The underground railroad, Lincoln's emancipation proclamation, civil war for two seconds, jim crow, then MLK solved racism, paper shuffling, the end, Murica!
  - nradov 4y ago
    In practice it seems many racists actually do discriminate based at least partially on national origin. I have overhead multiple US small business owners state that they like to hire recent immigrants from Nigeria (and other African countries) instead of the native-born descendants of slaves due to a perceived difference in employee work ethic and attitude. To be clear I don't support discrimination and I abhor all forms of racism. I'm just pointing out that different groups may have wildly different experiences with discrimination despite looking somewhat similar.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    > This is historical context for why these groups are still face discrimination today. Someone who's racist has no idea if you're a recent immigrant from Nigeria, you will face the exact same discrimination as a descendant of slaves. They may face prejudice, but they don’t face what academics today would call systemic or structural racism. To use your example, Nigerian immigrants have such high income mobility they reach parity with similarly educated whites by the second generation. Indeed, studies show that virtually all immigrant groups enjoy higher income mobility than native born Americans. > This is the public education equivalent of "the talk" parents have to have with their kids for why they're treated differently. What “talk?” My parents never said anything about racism, even though I grew up in an almost completely white Virginia town in the 1990s. And I’m grateful for it, because I never had any reason to expect to be treated differently. It would be wildly inappropriate for a teacher, 80% of whom are white, to try and address how a minority kid should relate to living in a white majority society. > One of my good friends is a second generation immigrant from Thailand and in white suburbia in the 80s her mom was told to go back to China. Even people totally disconnected from the historical acts of discrimination are affected by it. And? Did that keep your friend from getting into school? Getting jobs? Etc? Prejudice between different groups is nearly universal. I was born in Thailand, but my family is from Bangladesh. If I had continued to live there I can guarantee you I’d have more than a few stories. The other day I was in an elevator with some Arabs, and one muttered “Bangladeshi” to the other. I don’t speak Arabic but I guarantee you he wasn’t saying anything nice! As an Asian, your friend is more likely to make more money and live longer, and less likely to get shot by the police or incarcerated than the average white person. Comments like that are unpleasant and rude, but have nothing to do with historically rooted structural racism.

I wonder if this has to do with changes to curricula.

rayiner 4y ago

[flagged]

andrekandre 4y ago
from chapter 1 of the book you linked: > At its core, the field of ethnic studies is the interdisciplinary study of race, ethnicity, and Indigeneity, with an emphasis on the experiences of people of color in the United States. People or person of color is a term used primarily in the United States and is meant to be inclusive among non-white groups > Furthermore, considering that European American-centered history and cultures are already robustly taught in the school curriculum, ethnic studies presents an opportunity for more inclusive and diverse histories and cultures to be highlighted and studied in a manner that is meaningful and can be transformative for all students. ------------- > Italian and German kids, by contrast, are not taught about the discrimination against those groups—even though German and Italian Americans today mostly are descended from 19th and 20th century immigrants who came here in poverty and faced discrimination, while most Asian Americans came here after 1990. firstly, why the concentration on discrimination? ethnic studies covers much more than that... also, the reason they don't cover groups that are considered "white" is because as stated above, in regular american history those history of italians/germans/irish are covered there well, but things like the chinese exclusion act, or railroad workers usually get about a paragraph or so in regular history (speaking of my own experience anyways) so adding more context and depth is good no? > It's a naked attempt to socialize "children of color" into identifying as oppressed minorities. maybe, maybe not, but whats your alternative? don't teach history of generally ignored groups in ethnic studies?
- rayiner 4y ago
  > firstly, why the concentration on discrimination? Ask that to the people who put together the model ethnic studies curriculum! If you look at the sample lessons for Asians, almost all are about discrimination, exclusion, etc. > ethnic studies covers much more than that... In theory, yes, in practice, no. You can’t realistically expect white Americans to teach Indian or Chinese kids about their own cultures and experiences. So the focus tends to be on how white Americans relate to minorities, which in liberal states like California tends to be through the lens of white guilt. That’s how you end up with a curriculum that’s all about discrimination. > also, the reason they don't cover groups that are considered "white" is because as stated above, in regular american history those history of italians/germans/irish are covered there well We didn’t cover German, Italian, and Irish immigration in K-12. Maybe we spent a day talking about Ellis Island. More importantly, we never learned anything about the discrimination against those groups. There is a clear dichotomy: white kids are not taught ethnic identity, and are not taught to identify with the struggles of and discrimination against their immigrant ancestors. Minority kids, by contrast, are taught to be conscious of their race and ethnicity, and are taught to identify with the struggles of Asians or Hispanics that in most cases they aren’t even descended from. This dichotomy is historically inaccurate. For example, if you really want to understand how say Hispanics fit into America—economically, socially, and culturally—the closest analogy is to Italians. But in California, Italian kids are taught something completely different about their identity than Hispanic kids. Separating non-white immigrants from previous generations of immigrants paints a misleading picture of the immigrant experience. This dichotomy is also bad for minority kids. It socializes them to think of themselves as victims without agency, who are acted upon by white people who have agency. It’s othering—you have white teachers talking about what “we” did to “you.” And it’s enormously demotivating for kids to be told that they have the decked stacked against them because of your skin color. > maybe, maybe not, but whats your alternative? don't teach history of generally ignored groups in ethnic studies? Yes. My kids don’t need to learn Asian American history from some white lady. And they certainly don’t need their white friends being socialized to think of them as being somehow different. I don’t care how good the intentions are—teachers highlighting differences isn’t a good thing for visible minorities. And if we insist on doing so, we should strive to be accurate. If you’re going to teach about the Chinese Exclusion Act, also teach the German American kids about when states banned the teaching of German. Teach Italian and Irish kids about anti-Catholic school legislation.
  - selimthegrim 4y ago
    > about when states banned the teaching of German. Teach Italian and Irish kids about anti-Catholic school legislation. This is done in the Midwest all the time (Know-Nothing party, etc in US history)
  - andrekandre 4y ago
    thanks for the thoughtful reply i mostly agree with the most of your reasoning, i guess for me i don't see it as a huge issue personally... i come from a mixed background so learning about how my ancestors were treated didn't make me feel victimized... but n=1 and all that i'd like to see some studies about these things than just our personal experiences tbh > We didn’t cover German, Italian, and Irish immigration in K-12. Maybe we spent a day talking about Ellis Island. More importantly, we never learned anything about the discrimination against those groups. its hard to discuss this because curriculum varies widely depending on where you went to school (for me these were quite thoroughly covered), again it would be good to have some studies/data > If you’re going to teach about the Chinese Exclusion Act, also teach the German American kids about when states banned the teaching of German. Teach Italian and Irish kids about anti-Catholic school legislation. i think thats totally fair > My kids don’t need to learn Asian American history from some white lady. while i can totally understand this feeling (i've thought this myself at times) how do you know a priori the teacher will be white? and furthermore, does it really matter in the end as long as they are fair?
    - rayiner 4y ago
      > while i can totally understand this feeling (i've thought this myself at times) how do you know a priori the teacher will be white? and furthermore, does it really matter in the end as long as they are fair? 80% of public school teachers are white, and outside majority-minority schools, it’s 90%+. And I think for this issue, it makes a difference. Parents of white kids have a fundamentally different stake in these issues than parents of minority kids. As a parent of brown kids, my concern is about ensuring their success in a society where they will always be visibly different. I don’t think it’s an especially racist society, but being different is always a liability. (And if it was as racist a country as many white people say it is, that would be even more reason to teach my kids to keep their heads down and their mouths shut!) By contrast, in my experience, white people overwhelmingly think of these issues in terms of what they want their white kids to learn about how to treat “other people.”
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
gamblor956 4y ago
You might be mixing up your Germans with your Irish, were absolutely subject to discrimination when they first moved here. This discrimination was fundamental to the development of Irish American enclaves in many cities, including especially NY and Chicago. German immigrants were subject to some, but significantly less discrimination owing to their shared Protestant backgrounds with the majority English Protestant descendants comprising of the American upper class. But more to the point: almost no German Americans were imprisoned during WWII despite many of them providing intelligence to the Nazis. OTOH, nearly every Japanese American on the West Coast was incarcerated in Manzanar and their property and businesses confiscated.
- rayiner 4y ago
  There were under 150,000 Japanese Americans in the 1940s. There’s 1.4 million Japanese Americans, and despite being one of the oldest Asian American groups, the vast majority of those came here or are descended from people who came here in the latter half of the 20th century. German Americans were treated better than the Japanese, though I think you’re overstating the significance of Protestantism. A large fraction of German Americans are Catholic. More significant is that Germans by then were a large, well established immigrant group. They made up almost 9% of the population in the 1790 census. By 1920 there were 9 million German Americans. Even still, the discrimination they faced was far worse than what say Muslims faced during the war on terror: https://www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entries/german-americans-during-world-war-i/ https://www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entries/german-ame....
Spivak 4y ago
> socialize them to understand their ethnic identity in terms of American slavery. This is historical context for why these groups are still face discrimination today. Someone who's racist has no idea if you're a recent immigrant from Nigeria, you will face the exact same discrimination as a descendant of slaves. This is the public education equivalent of "the talk" parents have to have with their kids for why they're treated differently. One of my good friends is a second generation immigrant from Thailand and in white suburbia in the 80s her mom was told to go back to China. Even people totally disconnected from the historical acts of discrimination are affected by it. The "standard" US history curriculum is comically bad, come over on my Mayflower, have Thanksgiving with the Indians, Taxation Without Representation, Tea Party, The Federalist Papers, The Constitution, slavery, The underground railroad, Lincoln's emancipation proclamation, civil war for two seconds, jim crow, then MLK solved racism, paper shuffling, the end, Murica!
- nradov 4y ago
  In practice it seems many racists actually do discriminate based at least partially on national origin. I have overhead multiple US small business owners state that they like to hire recent immigrants from Nigeria (and other African countries) instead of the native-born descendants of slaves due to a perceived difference in employee work ethic and attitude. To be clear I don't support discrimination and I abhor all forms of racism. I'm just pointing out that different groups may have wildly different experiences with discrimination despite looking somewhat similar.
- rayiner 4y ago
  > This is historical context for why these groups are still face discrimination today. Someone who's racist has no idea if you're a recent immigrant from Nigeria, you will face the exact same discrimination as a descendant of slaves. They may face prejudice, but they don’t face what academics today would call systemic or structural racism. To use your example, Nigerian immigrants have such high income mobility they reach parity with similarly educated whites by the second generation. Indeed, studies show that virtually all immigrant groups enjoy higher income mobility than native born Americans. > This is the public education equivalent of "the talk" parents have to have with their kids for why they're treated differently. What “talk?” My parents never said anything about racism, even though I grew up in an almost completely white Virginia town in the 1990s. And I’m grateful for it, because I never had any reason to expect to be treated differently. It would be wildly inappropriate for a teacher, 80% of whom are white, to try and address how a minority kid should relate to living in a white majority society. > One of my good friends is a second generation immigrant from Thailand and in white suburbia in the 80s her mom was told to go back to China. Even people totally disconnected from the historical acts of discrimination are affected by it. And? Did that keep your friend from getting into school? Getting jobs? Etc? Prejudice between different groups is nearly universal. I was born in Thailand, but my family is from Bangladesh. If I had continued to live there I can guarantee you I’d have more than a few stories. The other day I was in an elevator with some Arabs, and one muttered “Bangladeshi” to the other. I don’t speak Arabic but I guarantee you he wasn’t saying anything nice! As an Asian, your friend is more likely to make more money and live longer, and less likely to get shot by the police or incarcerated than the average white person. Comments like that are unpleasant and rude, but have nothing to do with historically rooted structural racism.