6 ms·

California public school enrollment sees big drops

19 points by lxm 4y ago

Andaith 4y ago
As a none-american, can I ask: Are public schools in the USA bad? Like, I have such a negative view of them as underfunded, understaffed, filled with overworked & burned out staff. just somewhere that education goes to die, really. Is that view accurate? Or do I just have that view due to media bias(The bias being that there's no news story: 'Random School is well run, more at 11')?
- klondike_ 4y ago
  It depends heavily on your location. Public schools are generally assigned based on the student's primary address, so houses in good school districts tend to attract a premium. This leaves schools in poor areas chronically underfunded and understaffed
  - Amezarak 4y ago
    Even “poor” schools in the US are generally receiving more funding per student than the average school in other countries. The “bad” public schools are a result of increasing and spreading social dysfunction (see the other comment in this thread about drug dogs), not funding.
- olliej 4y ago
  super location dependent. There are many reasons, from the absurd to the cruel (CA for example doesn't allow property taxes/council rates to track market value, largely because of campaigning in the 70s after the Supreme Court said CA had to fund schools in poor neighborhoods to the same extent as those in rich neighborhoods). I'm from NZ, so my US partner's Oakland, CA high school experience was horrifying: * They had metal detectors on entrances * They had armed police (or something similar: a precursor to the modern US "school resource officers") * They had drug dogs, one of which OD'd * The toilet stalls did not have doors On the other hand, if you drove 15 minutes up the road into Berkeley, their public high schools have their own swimming pools.
  - kylehotchkiss 4y ago
    I’ve never heard of toilet stalls without doors in schools. The really flimsy walls high above the floors, sure, but no doors? That sounds like a massive open door for bullying
    - olliej 4y ago
      The high school was really leaning into "school is a prison" :-/
    - cvwright 4y ago
      My otherwise nice schools in the 90s were like that. No door on the boys’ bathroom, and no doors on the stalls.
    - cafard 4y ago
      My elementary school had no doors on the toilet stalls, in the wing of the school for 6th graders and up. I haven't seen that since.
- kylehotchkiss 4y ago
  I grew up in Virginia, an hour south of DC. Public schools there were large campuses, generally built within the past 30 years, with what seemed to be a good balance of teachers who actually lived near the schools they taught at. There wasn’t much of a concept in my family or anybody I knew growing up of “choosing a house near a good school” and the county would redraw the school districts from time to time to help with the bus routes or spreading load or something and it never seemed like a huge deal. I now live in Southern California and am always surprised to see schools as 1-story buildings from the 1960s with so many trailers outside. I have no idea how far the teachers have to drive to get to them as the houses around nice schools cost so much.
- nostrademons 4y ago
  Like others have mentioned, public schooling in the U.S. is heavily location-dependent. Many affluent suburbs with wealthy, involved parents have great public schools. You don't hear about them because of reporting bias: if the schools are good, the last thing you want is lots of other people coming to your town to take advantage of them, but if they're bad it makes for a good outrage piece.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    I don't think it's so much about "affluent suburbs" having "great" schools and some places having very bad schools. I grew up in an upper middle class Virginia county that nonetheless spent less than the national average per student on education (back when Virginia was a red state), but had well regarded schools. I think in most of the country, if you live in a community where nearly all the kids parents are married, the schools will be fine, even if the places aren't "wealthy" or don't spend a lot of money on education.
    - zzzzsleep662 4y ago
      I also went to some very good schools and did not live in a rich area. It was a good area sure, you weren't going to hear gunshots on your walk to school, but it was not the "rich people" area. The rich people area actually had worse schools academically speaking. This makes sense when you think about it. We tended to have a lot of students whose parents were highly educated immigrants, whereas the rich part of town generally tended to be old money and not as focused on being hyper competitive academically.
- rayiner 4y ago
  American schools are fine. They are not underfunded: we spend the OECD average on K-12 as a percentage of GDP, and since we are so rich it ends up on the high end in absolute terms. Our class sizes are right around the OECD average, smaller than Germany or France: http://oecdedutoday.com/how-does-class-size-vary-around-the-world http://oecdedutoday.com/how-does-class-size-vary-around-the-.... The problem is that American kids are bad—poorly behaved and uninterested in education.
  - rhacker 4y ago
    I am 43, definitely not my experience when I was growing up in CA. When did the kids go from "good - well behaved" to "bad -poorly behaved"? Honest question - I really don't know any kids.
    - rythmshifter 4y ago
      Around the time cell phones and social media became prevalent.
- walkhour 4y ago
  The drop in attendance is not because schools are under funded, or the staff is burnt. It's pretty clear the biggest changes that have happened in US schools in the last years.
- horns4lyfe 4y ago
  It’s a huge country and there are a lot of public schools, so you see a lot of variance. They all (99% anyway) have the funding and infrastructure to be fine especially large cities. The problem is large swaths of parents who don’t get involved in their kids education or behavior at all, and those kids become a nightmare for teachers and other students to the point where it becomes a safety issue. It’s always in poorer areas of mostly cities. You can throw all the money you want at those schools and it won’t work because too many of the parents are just trash.
- foxyv 4y ago
  It depends on where you are city wise. If you are in an affluent area, like my cousins, then you have after school programs, Scout troops, available tutoring, excellent teachers, little to no violence and safe transportation to/from. If you live in an area with lots of halfway houses like I did as a kid (We called it murder valley), you can expect: Violence, blatant racism, drugs, gangs, sexual assault, weekly riots, casual fights, attempted murders, one or two actual murders a year, burnt out teachers, closed after school programs, dangerous busses, and police harassing you constantly. I was constantly getting hauled up to the office because I had the same name as a career criminal at the age of 13. Substitutes would refer kids to the office who looked sleepy for the nurse to check us for drug use. I was in constant fights with black and hispanic kids trying to prove something to their friends by beating up the white kids. Drug dogs would patrol the school. The place was run like a prison. Walking home, one of the girls in my high school went missing and her pelvis was found in a ditch a few years later... So yeah, some of them are pretty bad. But at least we have the most overfunded military in the world.
- gamblor956 4y ago
  The public schools in the nicer American neighborhoods run leaps and bounds ahead of public schools in comparable neighborhoods in other countries. In nicer neighborhoods, the local high school is frequently comparable to a small college, with the academic (and athletic) facilities and staff to match.
  - reducesuffering 4y ago
    Like this Indiana High School that went viral for how stately it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaqI6y_B0Os https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaqI6y_B0Os
- solarmist 4y ago
  You have a full spectrum from the very worst to the very best and no consistency from zip code to zip code. School finding is primary via property taxes, so rich districts get good schools and poor ones struggle.
- zzzzsleep662 4y ago
  There is not single answer to your question. In general, they are okay if averaged out. US schools get a bad rap compared to other rich countries mostly due to some very tragic situations that make it impossible for some schools to do their jobs. For instance, there is a not insignificant portion of the student population in some places that do not speak English as a first language and sometimes at all. This is not necessarily the worst problem with our schools, I chose it simply as an illustration of something that can lead to low performing schools even if the school and staff are otherwise doing their jobs exceptionally well. On the other hand, the US also has some of the best public schools in the world. In a lot of cases, public schools beat out very expensive private schools in metrics like average AP score, average number of AP tests taken, average SAT, percentage of students at or above grade level, etc. At this high end, the US school system outperforms peer countries significantly. Its often the case that these high performing schools are relatively accessible for non wealthy people as well. You just need to rent an apartment nearby. You don't need to buy a property in Martha's vineyard. If these types of schools didn't exist, and the US public school system was as bad overall as it appears in the media, I suspect we would not have as many ambitious and highly educated immigrants wanting to live here.
nradov 4y ago
If you don't allow students to actually come to school for two years then some of them might leave permanently. What a surprise.
ajhurliman 4y ago
I wonder if this has to do with changes to curricula.
- rayiner 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - andrekandre 4y ago
    from chapter 1 of the book you linked: > At its core, the field of ethnic studies is the interdisciplinary study of race, ethnicity, and Indigeneity, with an emphasis on the experiences of people of color in the United States. People or person of color is a term used primarily in the United States and is meant to be inclusive among non-white groups > Furthermore, considering that European American-centered history and cultures are already robustly taught in the school curriculum, ethnic studies presents an opportunity for more inclusive and diverse histories and cultures to be highlighted and studied in a manner that is meaningful and can be transformative for all students. ------------- > Italian and German kids, by contrast, are not taught about the discrimination against those groups—even though German and Italian Americans today mostly are descended from 19th and 20th century immigrants who came here in poverty and faced discrimination, while most Asian Americans came here after 1990. firstly, why the concentration on discrimination? ethnic studies covers much more than that... also, the reason they don't cover groups that are considered "white" is because as stated above, in regular american history those history of italians/germans/irish are covered there well, but things like the chinese exclusion act, or railroad workers usually get about a paragraph or so in regular history (speaking of my own experience anyways) so adding more context and depth is good no? > It's a naked attempt to socialize "children of color" into identifying as oppressed minorities. maybe, maybe not, but whats your alternative? don't teach history of generally ignored groups in ethnic studies?
    - rayiner 4y ago
      > firstly, why the concentration on discrimination? Ask that to the people who put together the model ethnic studies curriculum! If you look at the sample lessons for Asians, almost all are about discrimination, exclusion, etc. > ethnic studies covers much more than that... In theory, yes, in practice, no. You can’t realistically expect white Americans to teach Indian or Chinese kids about their own cultures and experiences. So the focus tends to be on how white Americans relate to minorities, which in liberal states like California tends to be through the lens of white guilt. That’s how you end up with a curriculum that’s all about discrimination. > also, the reason they don't cover groups that are considered "white" is because as stated above, in regular american history those history of italians/germans/irish are covered there well We didn’t cover German, Italian, and Irish immigration in K-12. Maybe we spent a day talking about Ellis Island. More importantly, we never learned anything about the discrimination against those groups. There is a clear dichotomy: white kids are not taught ethnic identity, and are not taught to identify with the struggles of and discrimination against their immigrant ancestors. Minority kids, by contrast, are taught to be conscious of their race and ethnicity, and are taught to identify with the struggles of Asians or Hispanics that in most cases they aren’t even descended from. This dichotomy is historically inaccurate. For example, if you really want to understand how say Hispanics fit into America—economically, socially, and culturally—the closest analogy is to Italians. But in California, Italian kids are taught something completely different about their identity than Hispanic kids. Separating non-white immigrants from previous generations of immigrants paints a misleading picture of the immigrant experience. This dichotomy is also bad for minority kids. It socializes them to think of themselves as victims without agency, who are acted upon by white people who have agency. It’s othering—you have white teachers talking about what “we” did to “you.” And it’s enormously demotivating for kids to be told that they have the decked stacked against them because of your skin color. > maybe, maybe not, but whats your alternative? don't teach history of generally ignored groups in ethnic studies? Yes. My kids don’t need to learn Asian American history from some white lady. And they certainly don’t need their white friends being socialized to think of them as being somehow different. I don’t care how good the intentions are—teachers highlighting differences isn’t a good thing for visible minorities. And if we insist on doing so, we should strive to be accurate. If you’re going to teach about the Chinese Exclusion Act, also teach the German American kids about when states banned the teaching of German. Teach Italian and Irish kids about anti-Catholic school legislation.

19 points by lxm 4y ago

As a none-american, can I ask: Are public schools in the USA bad? Like, I have such a negative view of them as underfunded, understaffed, filled with overworked & burned out staff. just somewhere that education goes to die, really. Is that view accurate? Or do I just have that view due to media bias(The bias being that there's no news story: 'Random School is well run, more at 11')?

klondike_ 4y ago
It depends heavily on your location. Public schools are generally assigned based on the student's primary address, so houses in good school districts tend to attract a premium. This leaves schools in poor areas chronically underfunded and understaffed
- Amezarak 4y ago
  Even “poor” schools in the US are generally receiving more funding per student than the average school in other countries. The “bad” public schools are a result of increasing and spreading social dysfunction (see the other comment in this thread about drug dogs), not funding.
olliej 4y ago
super location dependent. There are many reasons, from the absurd to the cruel (CA for example doesn't allow property taxes/council rates to track market value, largely because of campaigning in the 70s after the Supreme Court said CA had to fund schools in poor neighborhoods to the same extent as those in rich neighborhoods). I'm from NZ, so my US partner's Oakland, CA high school experience was horrifying: * They had metal detectors on entrances * They had armed police (or something similar: a precursor to the modern US "school resource officers") * They had drug dogs, one of which OD'd * The toilet stalls did not have doors On the other hand, if you drove 15 minutes up the road into Berkeley, their public high schools have their own swimming pools.
- kylehotchkiss 4y ago
  I’ve never heard of toilet stalls without doors in schools. The really flimsy walls high above the floors, sure, but no doors? That sounds like a massive open door for bullying
  - olliej 4y ago
    The high school was really leaning into "school is a prison" :-/
  - cvwright 4y ago
    My otherwise nice schools in the 90s were like that. No door on the boys’ bathroom, and no doors on the stalls.
  - cafard 4y ago
    My elementary school had no doors on the toilet stalls, in the wing of the school for 6th graders and up. I haven't seen that since.
kylehotchkiss 4y ago
I grew up in Virginia, an hour south of DC. Public schools there were large campuses, generally built within the past 30 years, with what seemed to be a good balance of teachers who actually lived near the schools they taught at. There wasn’t much of a concept in my family or anybody I knew growing up of “choosing a house near a good school” and the county would redraw the school districts from time to time to help with the bus routes or spreading load or something and it never seemed like a huge deal. I now live in Southern California and am always surprised to see schools as 1-story buildings from the 1960s with so many trailers outside. I have no idea how far the teachers have to drive to get to them as the houses around nice schools cost so much.
nostrademons 4y ago
Like others have mentioned, public schooling in the U.S. is heavily location-dependent. Many affluent suburbs with wealthy, involved parents have great public schools. You don't hear about them because of reporting bias: if the schools are good, the last thing you want is lots of other people coming to your town to take advantage of them, but if they're bad it makes for a good outrage piece.
- rayiner 4y ago
  I don't think it's so much about "affluent suburbs" having "great" schools and some places having very bad schools. I grew up in an upper middle class Virginia county that nonetheless spent less than the national average per student on education (back when Virginia was a red state), but had well regarded schools. I think in most of the country, if you live in a community where nearly all the kids parents are married, the schools will be fine, even if the places aren't "wealthy" or don't spend a lot of money on education.
  - zzzzsleep662 4y ago
    I also went to some very good schools and did not live in a rich area. It was a good area sure, you weren't going to hear gunshots on your walk to school, but it was not the "rich people" area. The rich people area actually had worse schools academically speaking. This makes sense when you think about it. We tended to have a lot of students whose parents were highly educated immigrants, whereas the rich part of town generally tended to be old money and not as focused on being hyper competitive academically.
rayiner 4y ago
American schools are fine. They are not underfunded: we spend the OECD average on K-12 as a percentage of GDP, and since we are so rich it ends up on the high end in absolute terms. Our class sizes are right around the OECD average, smaller than Germany or France: http://oecdedutoday.com/how-does-class-size-vary-around-the-world http://oecdedutoday.com/how-does-class-size-vary-around-the-.... The problem is that American kids are bad—poorly behaved and uninterested in education.
- rhacker 4y ago
  I am 43, definitely not my experience when I was growing up in CA. When did the kids go from "good - well behaved" to "bad -poorly behaved"? Honest question - I really don't know any kids.
  - rythmshifter 4y ago
    Around the time cell phones and social media became prevalent.
walkhour 4y ago
The drop in attendance is not because schools are under funded, or the staff is burnt. It's pretty clear the biggest changes that have happened in US schools in the last years.
horns4lyfe 4y ago
It’s a huge country and there are a lot of public schools, so you see a lot of variance. They all (99% anyway) have the funding and infrastructure to be fine especially large cities. The problem is large swaths of parents who don’t get involved in their kids education or behavior at all, and those kids become a nightmare for teachers and other students to the point where it becomes a safety issue. It’s always in poorer areas of mostly cities. You can throw all the money you want at those schools and it won’t work because too many of the parents are just trash.
foxyv 4y ago
It depends on where you are city wise. If you are in an affluent area, like my cousins, then you have after school programs, Scout troops, available tutoring, excellent teachers, little to no violence and safe transportation to/from. If you live in an area with lots of halfway houses like I did as a kid (We called it murder valley), you can expect: Violence, blatant racism, drugs, gangs, sexual assault, weekly riots, casual fights, attempted murders, one or two actual murders a year, burnt out teachers, closed after school programs, dangerous busses, and police harassing you constantly. I was constantly getting hauled up to the office because I had the same name as a career criminal at the age of 13. Substitutes would refer kids to the office who looked sleepy for the nurse to check us for drug use. I was in constant fights with black and hispanic kids trying to prove something to their friends by beating up the white kids. Drug dogs would patrol the school. The place was run like a prison. Walking home, one of the girls in my high school went missing and her pelvis was found in a ditch a few years later... So yeah, some of them are pretty bad. But at least we have the most overfunded military in the world.
gamblor956 4y ago
The public schools in the nicer American neighborhoods run leaps and bounds ahead of public schools in comparable neighborhoods in other countries. In nicer neighborhoods, the local high school is frequently comparable to a small college, with the academic (and athletic) facilities and staff to match.
- reducesuffering 4y ago
  Like this Indiana High School that went viral for how stately it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaqI6y_B0Os https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaqI6y_B0Os
solarmist 4y ago
You have a full spectrum from the very worst to the very best and no consistency from zip code to zip code. School finding is primary via property taxes, so rich districts get good schools and poor ones struggle.
zzzzsleep662 4y ago
There is not single answer to your question. In general, they are okay if averaged out. US schools get a bad rap compared to other rich countries mostly due to some very tragic situations that make it impossible for some schools to do their jobs. For instance, there is a not insignificant portion of the student population in some places that do not speak English as a first language and sometimes at all. This is not necessarily the worst problem with our schools, I chose it simply as an illustration of something that can lead to low performing schools even if the school and staff are otherwise doing their jobs exceptionally well. On the other hand, the US also has some of the best public schools in the world. In a lot of cases, public schools beat out very expensive private schools in metrics like average AP score, average number of AP tests taken, average SAT, percentage of students at or above grade level, etc. At this high end, the US school system outperforms peer countries significantly. Its often the case that these high performing schools are relatively accessible for non wealthy people as well. You just need to rent an apartment nearby. You don't need to buy a property in Martha's vineyard. If these types of schools didn't exist, and the US public school system was as bad overall as it appears in the media, I suspect we would not have as many ambitious and highly educated immigrants wanting to live here.

nradov 4y ago

If you don't allow students to actually come to school for two years then some of them might leave permanently. What a surprise.

ajhurliman 4y ago

I wonder if this has to do with changes to curricula.

rayiner 4y ago
[flagged]
- andrekandre 4y ago
  from chapter 1 of the book you linked: > At its core, the field of ethnic studies is the interdisciplinary study of race, ethnicity, and Indigeneity, with an emphasis on the experiences of people of color in the United States. People or person of color is a term used primarily in the United States and is meant to be inclusive among non-white groups > Furthermore, considering that European American-centered history and cultures are already robustly taught in the school curriculum, ethnic studies presents an opportunity for more inclusive and diverse histories and cultures to be highlighted and studied in a manner that is meaningful and can be transformative for all students. ------------- > Italian and German kids, by contrast, are not taught about the discrimination against those groups—even though German and Italian Americans today mostly are descended from 19th and 20th century immigrants who came here in poverty and faced discrimination, while most Asian Americans came here after 1990. firstly, why the concentration on discrimination? ethnic studies covers much more than that... also, the reason they don't cover groups that are considered "white" is because as stated above, in regular american history those history of italians/germans/irish are covered there well, but things like the chinese exclusion act, or railroad workers usually get about a paragraph or so in regular history (speaking of my own experience anyways) so adding more context and depth is good no? > It's a naked attempt to socialize "children of color" into identifying as oppressed minorities. maybe, maybe not, but whats your alternative? don't teach history of generally ignored groups in ethnic studies?
  - rayiner 4y ago
    > firstly, why the concentration on discrimination? Ask that to the people who put together the model ethnic studies curriculum! If you look at the sample lessons for Asians, almost all are about discrimination, exclusion, etc. > ethnic studies covers much more than that... In theory, yes, in practice, no. You can’t realistically expect white Americans to teach Indian or Chinese kids about their own cultures and experiences. So the focus tends to be on how white Americans relate to minorities, which in liberal states like California tends to be through the lens of white guilt. That’s how you end up with a curriculum that’s all about discrimination. > also, the reason they don't cover groups that are considered "white" is because as stated above, in regular american history those history of italians/germans/irish are covered there well We didn’t cover German, Italian, and Irish immigration in K-12. Maybe we spent a day talking about Ellis Island. More importantly, we never learned anything about the discrimination against those groups. There is a clear dichotomy: white kids are not taught ethnic identity, and are not taught to identify with the struggles of and discrimination against their immigrant ancestors. Minority kids, by contrast, are taught to be conscious of their race and ethnicity, and are taught to identify with the struggles of Asians or Hispanics that in most cases they aren’t even descended from. This dichotomy is historically inaccurate. For example, if you really want to understand how say Hispanics fit into America—economically, socially, and culturally—the closest analogy is to Italians. But in California, Italian kids are taught something completely different about their identity than Hispanic kids. Separating non-white immigrants from previous generations of immigrants paints a misleading picture of the immigrant experience. This dichotomy is also bad for minority kids. It socializes them to think of themselves as victims without agency, who are acted upon by white people who have agency. It’s othering—you have white teachers talking about what “we” did to “you.” And it’s enormously demotivating for kids to be told that they have the decked stacked against them because of your skin color. > maybe, maybe not, but whats your alternative? don't teach history of generally ignored groups in ethnic studies? Yes. My kids don’t need to learn Asian American history from some white lady. And they certainly don’t need their white friends being socialized to think of them as being somehow different. I don’t care how good the intentions are—teachers highlighting differences isn’t a good thing for visible minorities. And if we insist on doing so, we should strive to be accurate. If you’re going to teach about the Chinese Exclusion Act, also teach the German American kids about when states banned the teaching of German. Teach Italian and Irish kids about anti-Catholic school legislation.