3 ms·

Yeah China purposefully undermined the competition through state funding in order to control the market.

seanmcdirmid 4y ago
I doubt it was that, I think China's lack of environmental rule enforcement led to a condition that allowed for lower cost producers, the state didn't intend on controlling this market (or maybe some combination of that, but refusing to export in the future means they won't control the market anymore).
- moose_man 4y ago
  No, it's pretty clear that this was a top down effort to control the global market, a concerted effort by the state. https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-merges-three-rare-earths-state-owned-entities-to-increase-pricing-power-and-efficiency/ https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-merges-three-rare-...
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    No, not at all. It is clear to you because you aren't looking at the entire history. But to anyone who has been in China for awhile, it is obvious that it happened overtime and wasn't intended. You are assuming China is an authoritarian country where state control is absolute, but in reality, China is a huge country where there are lots people making even if that means destroying the environment while the government isn't paying attention.
    - moose_man 4y ago
      There are articles about this going back 20 years to the early 2000s I'm not just coming up with this thesis. It's been apparent for a long time. They had a natural advantage to begin with but they went much further.
      - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
        Here is an actual concrete article you can read (vs. the ones you say exist that support your thesis): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earth_industry_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earth_industry_in_China. > In 2002, China's central government pushed forward restructuring of the domestic rare earth industry by creating two state-owned groups China Northern Rare Earth Group Company and China Southern Rare Earth Group Company.[14] This largely failed due to opposition from powerful local authorities and local producers.[14] Fierce competition in the local sector produced low profitability and inefficiency. This drove producers to consolidate and merge into larger companies for survival.[14] Market forces thus accomplished what central planning could not. > As rare earth prices went up because of the restriction of export, many illegal mines were developed by organized criminals to benefit from the trade.[15] The smuggling by organized criminal groups is harmful to China's rare earth industry as it depletes resources rapidly, deflates prices and causes supply problems for local producers.[16] It is estimated a third of exports or 20 000 tonnes in 2008 were illegally exported from China.[16] Now, if China had a central government controlled conspiracy to dominate rare earth elements over the last 20 years, the history between 2002 and 2008 wouldn't have turned out like that. What they have right now is a mess.
        moose_man 4y ago
        Look I understand countries are complicated and there are a lot of interests however I think that the Chinese government is totally capable of acting in a centralized way on a fixed target like mining (vs. something like semiconductors) when it believes it is a core national interest.
        seanmcdirmid 4y ago
        > however I think that the Chinese government is totally capable of acting in a centralized way on a fixed target like mining Spend a couple weeks in China's hinterland and I'm sure that your opinion would change very quickly. There are good reasons semiconductors are concentrated in Beijing/Shanghai, but anything mining or natural resource related are going to be messy because China is a huge country and local government interests are often at odds with central government interests.
    - nonethewiser 4y ago
      China does have an authoritarian government. And they literally own all the land. You can’t just extract rare earth metals from China without the CCPs blessing.
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  It is _that_ for steel. I don’t know about rare earth materials but it wouldn’t be a surprise.

I doubt it was that, I think China's lack of environmental rule enforcement led to a condition that allowed for lower cost producers, the state didn't intend on controlling this market (or maybe some combination of that, but refusing to export in the future means they won't control the market anymore).

moose_man 4y ago
No, it's pretty clear that this was a top down effort to control the global market, a concerted effort by the state. https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-merges-three-rare-earths-state-owned-entities-to-increase-pricing-power-and-efficiency/ https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-merges-three-rare-...
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  No, not at all. It is clear to you because you aren't looking at the entire history. But to anyone who has been in China for awhile, it is obvious that it happened overtime and wasn't intended. You are assuming China is an authoritarian country where state control is absolute, but in reality, China is a huge country where there are lots people making even if that means destroying the environment while the government isn't paying attention.
  - moose_man 4y ago
    There are articles about this going back 20 years to the early 2000s I'm not just coming up with this thesis. It's been apparent for a long time. They had a natural advantage to begin with but they went much further.
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
      Here is an actual concrete article you can read (vs. the ones you say exist that support your thesis): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earth_industry_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earth_industry_in_China. > In 2002, China's central government pushed forward restructuring of the domestic rare earth industry by creating two state-owned groups China Northern Rare Earth Group Company and China Southern Rare Earth Group Company.[14] This largely failed due to opposition from powerful local authorities and local producers.[14] Fierce competition in the local sector produced low profitability and inefficiency. This drove producers to consolidate and merge into larger companies for survival.[14] Market forces thus accomplished what central planning could not. > As rare earth prices went up because of the restriction of export, many illegal mines were developed by organized criminals to benefit from the trade.[15] The smuggling by organized criminal groups is harmful to China's rare earth industry as it depletes resources rapidly, deflates prices and causes supply problems for local producers.[16] It is estimated a third of exports or 20 000 tonnes in 2008 were illegally exported from China.[16] Now, if China had a central government controlled conspiracy to dominate rare earth elements over the last 20 years, the history between 2002 and 2008 wouldn't have turned out like that. What they have right now is a mess.
      - moose_man 4y ago
        Look I understand countries are complicated and there are a lot of interests however I think that the Chinese government is totally capable of acting in a centralized way on a fixed target like mining (vs. something like semiconductors) when it believes it is a core national interest.
        seanmcdirmid 4y ago
        > however I think that the Chinese government is totally capable of acting in a centralized way on a fixed target like mining Spend a couple weeks in China's hinterland and I'm sure that your opinion would change very quickly. There are good reasons semiconductors are concentrated in Beijing/Shanghai, but anything mining or natural resource related are going to be messy because China is a huge country and local government interests are often at odds with central government interests.
  - nonethewiser 4y ago
    China does have an authoritarian government. And they literally own all the land. You can’t just extract rare earth metals from China without the CCPs blessing.
nonethewiser 4y ago
It is _that_ for steel. I don’t know about rare earth materials but it wouldn’t be a surprise.