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My U.S. Border Nightmare

• sidwyn 15y ago
  Pardon me, but why are there so many stories on Upverter / related to them today?
• bdonlan 15y ago
  Ow. Please put in some paragraph breaks, it's a nightmare to try to read a long wall of text like that without some kind of landmark to latch on to.
  • jnbiche 15y ago
    You read that and your first reaction is punctuation?
    • groggles 15y ago
      It is mentally arduous to try to parse through it. I really tried but had to give up. Punctuation exists for good reason.
      • jnbiche 15y ago
        OK, fair enough. I thought you were just nitpicking. And after reading about his ordeal, I wasn't really open to nitpicking. As one human to another, I would suggest that when commenting on a highly-emotional blog post like this one, where the author has lived through a difficult experience, prefacing your criticism on their punctuation/grammar with a simple "wow, tough experience" or some other kind words would go a long way. Chances are high that this individual will read your words. We can debate whether or not the ordeal was deserved or not, but I don't think many of us can honestly deny that he lived through a tough experience. To those downvoting me, that's fine. But please realize that I was trying to uphold one of this community's core tenets, which is don't write things you wouldn't say to someone in real life (paraphrasing). I don't know groggles, but I'm guessing that he/she is an emotionally-mature adult, and so I can't imagine him/her saying to someone who just described being jailed and harassed by customs, "Please enunciate better when you talk -- I had a hard time understanding you". To me at least, this kind of attitude represents a major reason for the decline of online communities. Sometimes I just can't watch it happen without saying something.
        • izaidi 15y ago
          Whether intentionally or not, your own post came off as fairly rude, in my opinion much moreso than the parent, which is probably why you were downvoted.
        • huggyface 15y ago
          You are replying to a different person than the original poster. Secondly, no, emotional situations don't excuse the delivery. Unless he was literally writing a cry for help from confinement somewhere, he can take the time and respect readers by putting in some semblance of appropriate formatting. If it's just a rant then so be it, but it doesn't belong here. Thirdly, HN isn't a support group. I'm not going to bother with comforting words because the parts I could decipher give the image of a very naive, assumptive, flippant person. So many mistakes were made -- on their part (at the very outset by proclaiming a right to enter another country -- that I'm surprised that they spent the effort seeking sympathy.
  • mwoodworth 15y ago
    I think he might have been a little upset when he wrote it.
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• latch 15y ago
  I couldn't get through that wall of incoherent text. But from what I read, he's 100% wrong...maybe the story gets really weird though...however.. Traveling to a country which you are not a citizen of is not a right, it's a privilege. There are places where you need to apply weeks (or months) in advanced just to visit. Every country has different types of visas, and each visa has restrictions on what sort of activity you can and cannot engage in. If you are unprepared, or worse, you get caught breaking these laws, whatever happens is your own fault. Don't like the system? Don't like how a particular country enforces its laws or what the punishment can be? Don't travel.
  • adamrmcd 15y ago
    "Traveling to a country which you are not a citizen of is not a right, it's a privilege." I agree. I worked for 8 years for a Canadian company, during that time travelled up to 4 times a year for our US clients. Often having to bring ample documentation to prove that: * I work for a Canadian company, and am paid by the Canadian company. (See letter from my employer, on my company's letterhead.) * The American client I'm visiting is a client of my Canadian company. (See Statement of Work, license agreement, copy of purchase order. Note the SOW specifically has a provision saying "onsite travel required".) * The American client invited me into the US for the installation/support of our product. (See letter of invite, signed by American client on their letterhead.) And so on. Regardless of bringing this documentation, I found that the US boarder guards often did not even request it. But if they did, and if I didn't have it, this business trip would be fscked. Anyway, I'm going to try inserting <p> tags every few sentences to see if I can make sense of his rant :)
    • josscrowcroft 15y ago
      "I'm going to try inserting <p> tags every few sentences to see if I can make sense of his rant" - super tempted to make a bookmarklet for that later on.
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  • thomasgerbe 15y ago
• potatolicious 15y ago
  Author seems a bit naive about international sovereignty, though I suppose one can't exactly blame him for it. I grew up in Vancouver, a stone's throw from the border, so I suppose I take it for granted that we all learn very early on that CBP is a wretched hive of scum and villainy, and everyone knows someone who was chewed out, berated, and generally treated like a criminal by them. Seeing as how I work in the US now, it's probably fortunate that I grew up with such a cynical view about crossing international borders. Anyways, let this be a lesson to Canadians (or I suppose more generally, all non-Americans) who want to cross the border for whatever reason: be prepared always for the worst. If you are crossing for business, always seek legal advice for your situation, and make sure all of your ducks are lined up in a row. You have no right to enter a country where you are not a citizen, regardless of what treaties and protocols your two nations have set up. I do have a question for the author though: what kind of training involves setting up a US corp? Also, regardless of how you classify it in your head, I'm fairly certain that setting up and working for a US corp, for profit or education or just plain fun, means you're working in the USA, and would be illegal without the relevant visas. Without knowing the specifics about his situation, it would seem to me that he was in fact trying to enter the US illegally - though he didn't seem to know this. Ignorance of the law won't help you very much when you're in a room with an irate CBP officer.
  • AgentConundrum 15y ago
    > what kind of training involves setting up a US corp? Y Combinator. The company he mentions has a post on the front page right now mentioning "[their] Y Combinator experience". Calling it "business training" seems an overly simplistic description, but I don't think it's technically inaccurate. It's certainly the wrong thing to call it at the border.
    • maaku 15y ago
      But there's absolutely no question that it involves working in America, and would require a business visa. I'm not sure how one could a) be smart enough to get into YC, and b) not realize that coming to SF for 3 months to work presumably as a C-level director for an American business requires a work visa. EDIT: And neither B1 nor B2 is the right visa, so CBP was right to send him home. The OP needed a working visa.
• fluidcruft 15y ago
  > I still have no idea why I rubbed him the wrong way, but he sure didn't like me. Border guards are trained to make you feel uncomfortable, because they need to be driving with you to in a reactive state. They adapt to build psychological pressure. Don't get too hung up on them "singling" you out or targeting you, a lot of it is carefully choreographed and rote.
  • rjd 15y ago
    Indeed, I had gotten back from a fortnight holidaying around Croatia and flew into Gatwick in Britain on an Irish passport (with a New Zealand accent). I got stopped at the EU entry and demanded I explain because my passport was fake. Later I found out its a common ploy they use to illicit an emotional response and they watch for tell tale signs that I would give myself away if I was lying. Unfortunately for the lady the holiday was roughly a week of heavy drinking on yatchs and partying all night, so I was absolutely exhausted. So I let out a rather unrepeatable hail of abuse at how stupid she was and the poor woman didn't look up to meet my angry gaze and just stamped my passport... and I walked off nervously, full of guilt, expecting a security guard to escort me off for questioning or something but no one did thank god. So they have all sorts of things up there sleeves to try and read your intentions from the get go, I've never had any abuse myself though, but then I've never travelled into America before either.
  • adamrmcd 15y ago
    True, but, it seems some guards tend to take the role more seriously than others. Case in point, my co-workers and I would always have difficulty going through US customs (which, is located in our Canadian airport) when questioned by one specific agent. If we go through US customs and get any of the other agents, 9 of 10 times there would be no issue at all.
  • pyre 15y ago
    It is not choreographed. Some of these people do actually have chips on their shoulders. I've seen the frustration they show towards fellow officers while off to the side that they didn't get a chance to 'nail me to the wall.' I've also heard from a cabbie that crosses the land border often that sometimes the guys in the booth will send someone inside, then come inside and request to deal with that person themselves. This allows for massive amounts of abuse for assholes on power trips. If it has to go through multiple people, there's at least a chance for one officer to say, "WTF" if another is out-of-line. Some people are super-nice, and others are complete assholes. This is not by design. If it was all choreographed, then the experience would be very much more homogeneous. That said, there is a difference between a 'stern line of questioning,' and making an ass of yourself. Conversations like: Officer: Question1? Me: Answer, because... Officer: Stop trying to qualify your answers! I'm asking the questions here asshole. Just answer *exactly* what I ask you, are you stupid or something? Are the office being an asshole. I've only had these conversations happen a handful of times, over a ton of land-border crossings, but they do happen. Saying that it's all 'choreographed' just gives these guys a blank cheque to do whatever the hell they feel like and get away with it. Having a bad day? Just take it out on people crossing the border! It's not like they have any rights or anything once they get in line! No one will care if you abuse them! (This is obviously a recipe for only good things!)
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• lwat 15y ago
  If this guy showed up at Australia's border with no return flight, incorrect visa and everything else he screwed up, I'd wager he'd have the same experience. Do your homework, be a smart traveler!
  • grecy 15y ago
    I'm Australian, so I see where you are coming from. Living here in Canada, so close to the border with the USA, it's totally different. It's so close and easy, I drive to Alaska twice a month in the summer just to get good Thai food. And from my own experience I can tell you this - he may have been denied entry to Aus or at least had a few issues, but I'll bet my bottom dollar he wouldn't have been belittled and made to feel like the scum of the earth for hours and hours.
    • kisielk 15y ago
      I don't see what distance has to do with it. You're still crossing the border from one country to another regardless if you live 5 minutes or 5 hours from the border. To be honest, his experience is not so bad. In pre-EU Europe (and probably even now with some non-EU countries, but I can't say since I haven't tried) this kind of behaviour was often par for the course, and many times worse when trying to leave your home country for any reason during communism.
    • joenathan 15y ago
      He wasn't just popping in for some "Thai food" though, he was going to be staying for 3 months, he should have been better prepared. edit: Too add that especially after 9/11 and all the border fervor, it unreasonable to not be prepared when crossing.
      • bigiain 15y ago
        "3 to 4 months" according to the original article - I don't know what the usual thing to allow casual visits by Canadians to the US is, but I travel there from Australia fairly regularly for vacation and visiting family and friends under the visa waiver program, and I know I'm limited to 90 days - if I want to stay longer than that I need to get a visa.
• peterhajas 15y ago
  I have no sympathy. This sounds like an unprepared traveller, who confused his story, and then was denied due to the suspicious nature of his story. I know, start-up rush and hustle, but do your homework. Customs and border protection are very formal, and it's your responsibility to explain your story clearly and accurately the first time.
  • Maxious 15y ago
    Is he going to roll up to VCs offices and ask them to cut him a cheque because he doesn't know what investment instruments are?
• grecy 15y ago
  I'm a foreigner that has crossed into the USA 25+ times, about half of those at land borders from Canada (where I live, but I'm not Canadian) >the border guard starts in on me hard. I mean he had it out for me. I still have no idea why I rubbed him the wrong way, but he sure didn't like me. This happens to me 75% of the time I try to enter the USA. The best one was when I had my usa-plated motorbike in Canada, and came back into the USA with it. The border guard yelled at me, literally yelled at me for 2 hours about how much trouble I was in. "You gunna get it, boy", etc. Whenever I politely asked what law I had broken, I was told to "shut the hell up, smartass". (I broke no law, and was eventually allowed on my way) Another time in front of about 40 people the border guard booms "Can you read, Boy?". To which I replied "yes, sir", as he threw my passport across the room, hitting me on the chest and falling on the floor. A while back I was flying out from LA to Melbourne, and upon looking at my international plane ticket, the border guard said "where's Melbourne?". I was then forced to sit in a dark room, by myself for 4 hours, until another guard came along and said "looks fine to me, on your way" >he was trying to get me to talk and contradict myself - which I have to admit is pretty fucked up. This is the case every time I cross the border. For the record, I'm white.
  • mech4bg 15y ago
    Ouch, I'm not sure what that says that I immediately wondered if you were a minority. Oh, and I had a similar experience re: Melbourne. I'm a US citizen living in Australia, and was landing in San Fran for a 3 week visit about 8 years ago. As required by law, I travel on my US passport in and out of the US, so no problem right? But no, I start getting the third degree about what I do with myself - "I'm a student at the University of Melbourne" - "What is that? A college? What's Melbourne?" - err, where I just came from, and its best known University.
    • yummyfajitas 15y ago
      It says you are familiar with the historical racist usage of "boy"? (For non-Americans: a common racial slur in the southern US during the Jim Crow era was to call an adult black man "boy".)
• rdtsc 15y ago
  > Thats right ladies and gentlemen, if I told him the truth he would fight for me, but agreeing to his truth is in conflict with my originally story, and thus I have committed fraud Yikes. You really walked into that one. The more I kept reading the more I was cringing. The good cop, bad cop routine, letting you sit for hours, "let me talk to the supervisor" thing.
  • daemin 15y ago
    The thing that struck out at me on first read was the new officer that was "working hard for you, provided you told him the real truth". Smelled fishy to me.
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• Steko 15y ago
  My wife works for Air Canada in the US and consequently when traveling we see both US and Canadian immigration on a regular basis. I can assure you that there are royal dicks working in both offices. And also great people. There's some skill and some luck involved in getting more of the latter then the former. One memorable occasion: Just over a year ago I booked a ticket at the last moment, traveling one way and by myself to join my wife for New Years. I couldn't find my passport but with nothing to lose I gave it a shot with no picture ID on me except a 19 year old expired passport and a Costco card. Shockingly, through massive understanding and goodwill, I was able to pass through both Canadian and US security and immigration, albeit not without a few extra questions. Did I mention my mixed background is often mistaken for Middle Eastern and I have a scary drifter beard that sometimes causes my neighbors to politely decline riding in the elevator with me (lest they be mugged or assraped apparently). So yeah, when I read this article, my impression is the whole story might be a little different. If you could also get the story as told by (1) the guys he was traveling with, (2) the guard, (3) the guard's wife and (4) the spirit medium well might be a cool movie in there.
• yequalsx 15y ago
  I'm a natural born U.S. citizen from the Canal Zone (former U.S. territory). I get harassed quite a bit whenever I come back to the U.S. from overseas. The last time I was brusquely asked if I was a natural born citizen or had been naturalized at some point. I responded, "I was born in the same hospital as John McCain." The officer let me through after that retort. In my experience the CPB is the worst customs agency in the world and I'm an American. Natural born, of course.
  • aprescott 15y ago
    > The last time I was brusquely asked if I was a natural born citizen or had been naturalized at some point. If you're naturalised, my understanding is that you have all the rights of a person originally born in the country, with everything that implies. Is there even a point of asking this question other than aggressiveness?
    • raganwald 15y ago
      Not quite all the same rights and privileges. If you are entering the USA for the purpose of working as POTUS, They have grounds to refuse you as ineligible ;-)
      • dotBen 15y ago
        Well, presumably he does have the right to become POTUS if he was born in the same hospital as John McCain seeing as John McCain was a presidential candidate and thus his eligibility was already predetermined.
    • yequalsx 15y ago
      As I understand naturalization it is a pointless question. Whether I was naturalized at birth or at a later date is entirely irrelevant. In case anyone is wondering, I'm white and a native speaker of English who doesn't speak any other language.
      • azov 15y ago
• mafro 15y ago
  Having been born in the UK and travelled to Europe a lot, jeez do we get it easy there. You can drive across ten countries in a month and have nobody blink twice. They see the coat of arms on the UK passport and just wave you through. The one time I did go to America was precisely through the port the OP did - from Niagara into Buffalo. I got asked some pretty awkward questions and made to feel quite uncomfortable - at the time I thought they were massive bunch of assholes. He really didn't understand that we were just going over the border for 2 hours to eat chicken wings!
  • maxerickson 15y ago
    It's just different. The lower 48 is roughly twice the size of the Schengen area, without any border control anywhere. Throw in Mexico, Canada and Alaska and you are up to 6 times the area, with 3 borders (and the Canada-Alaska border is sort of its own thing). "It's a big place" doesn't really relate back to border control policy, but the borders of the U.S. and Canada aren't really all that similar to the borders of countries like the Netherlands or Spain.
    • wmoxam 15y ago
      "the borders of the U.S. and Canada aren't really all that similar to the borders of countries like the Netherlands or Spain" They used to be.
      • maxerickson 15y ago
        Yeah. I was thinking more about the physical scope of it and the variety and amount of traffic. I imagine it would be far less expensive for the U.S. and Canada to just open the border and spend some of the savings on policing any problems from that, but I don't really expect that to happen in the near future.
• melvinng 15y ago
  If you are from Waterloo, presumably you went to UWaterloo. Don't they teach you what to say at the border?
• spitfire 15y ago
  Two hints for easily crossing the boarder: 1. Enter via private plane. The staff at airfields handling private air traffic tend to be less stressed and way more relaxed. I've taxi'd right past the allotted space (Found it eventually) as well as made gitmo jokes with BP - they just laugh. 2. Cross by car at a smaller crossing. Again staff tend to be less stressed and more accommodating. 3. (I took CS!) Have all your ducks in a row before heading off. Really. No really, work it all out beforehand. Even if just going for lunch (Which is easy. "I'm going for lunch sir, I'll be leaving in 2 hours")
  • emmelaich 15y ago
    Mark Shuttleworth had trouble landing in the US in a private plane -- despite doing it all the time. Reinforces the 'get the paperwork right' advice. http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/43 http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/43
  • uptown 15y ago
    If the solution is to take a private plane, why not just suggest teleportation? It's as viable an option for most travelers.
    • spitfire 15y ago
      I specifically said private plane instead of private jet for a reason. They make very useful business tools and they're a lot more accessible than people think. A used Cessna 172 goes for about $20K these days. While charters can be had for $200 and up - for three+ passengers. This can be a serious advantage if you do a lot of business within 1000 mile range of home base.
  • mahyarm 15y ago
    Smaller crossings can be a real gamble. They can be less stressed, but bored and will give you shit. It depends on the crossing.
    • unreal37 15y ago
      I agree with it being a gamble. I got lost in the US once, and used an absolutely tiny border crossing to get back from the US to Canada. Worst crossing experience of my life - car search, shouting, "I can make your life hell", the whole bit. I only cross at big bridges since then.
• lancewiggs 15y ago
  This is sadly a pretty obvious case. The author was moving to the US to start a company. It wasn't to travel, nor to pop in and out to conduct business, and calling yCombinator a training program is a stretch. It might be, but it's a 'training program' that helps you start a business. A simple google would have told the agent what was what. Blame dumb visa requirements, not the agents who actually managed to catch you out. The laws need to be changed, and Obama actually got the point in his SOTU. In my five years living in the US during the first dot com boom first a student then on an H1B visa I knew enough not to bother trying to start a business. I've since started or helped start over 10, but none in the USA. Their loss.
  • smsm42 15y ago
    That's pretty messed up that people trying to start a business in America are considered criminals. Then again, it's not with the visas only - even being fully legal resident or citizen, you still need papers and permits and licenses to do business, or you're a criminal. It's like they go out of their way to discourage people from doing business.
    • georgieporgie 15y ago
      even being fully legal resident or citizen, you still need papers and permits and licenses to do business, or you're a criminal Er... What? You create a business in order to give yourself legal protection. You can go mow lawns, or do contract software, or whatever, without forming a business. But by forming a business you 1) give yourself personal liability protection and 2) create more options for handling taxation. It's like they go out of their way to discourage people from doing business. That's not really true. For something like $150, and minimal paperwork, I can start a business right now, in my state. In fact, it was only $50 until just a couple of years ago. Starting a business from another country, however, is another matter. I don't think it should be particularly easy for a non-American-resident to start an American business.
      • vidarh 15y ago
        It is easy to for a non-American resident to start an American business. I started a Delaware corporation a few years back, and it took a couple of hundred dollars to a company to have them set it up for us. It would've been cheaper except for some complexities in the way we wanted thing set up. The only thing that's slightly more hassle is getting a US business banking account set up, but that's easy enough too (my first attempt at getting a US bank account many years ago required me to go in person to the US consulate to have them certify my signature and a copy of my passport, and that's the most hassle it's ever been). If you want to work for your new US corporation _in_ the US, that's another matter.
• jperras 15y ago
  As someone who, up until recently, traveled to the United States on a regular basis (I'm Canadian), this doesn't surprise me at all. The author basically committed every mistake in the book. Generally, every question that the CBP agent will ask revolves around money: who pays your salary, in what currency, are you attempting to get in to the USA to find a job, will someone be giving you money for whatever reason (e.g. honorarium for giving a talk at a conference), etc. Even if the question sounds innocuous or completely unrelated to money, chances are that depending on your response, a follow up question would be. Additionally, if for whatever reason the agent decides that he doesn't like your story and believes that you are going to the USA and are going to be given money while you're there, you're basically shit out of luck. > I say Waterloo (totally out of habit) and that I left my job so its no issue about the time off (just a pointer here - never enter the US with an unclear leaving date, and no paying job). As someone who got locked up in a tiny room for a few hours because I mentioned that (at the time) I had been self-employed, these are basically the worst things that you can say. I really do understand what the author went through, and I sympathize. But the reality of the situation is that entering a country where you are not a citizen is not a right, it's a _privilege_. Remember: The CBP agents aren't there to let you in; there are there to keep people out.
  • jakejake 15y ago
    The best thing to do is to just not give them any reason at all to become interested in you. The way you do that is pretty simple - just tell the truth. I never got actually locked up like this guy, but I did have to sit in the lobby while they went through our van and had to answer tons of questions. If you're telling the truth it's not really a problem. If you're lying though, you'd better be a damn good liar because they are trained to try to trip you up.
    • jperras 15y ago
      To be fair, I wasn't put in a jail like the author was; I was sequestered in a very small room, door closed, and asked rapid-fire questions by two CBP agents for 2+ hours. I was telling the truth the whole time, which is why they ended up letting me travel that day. But let's just say that the next time I crossed the border, I had a mountain of paperwork that proved that I was employed by a Canadian company, that I was paid in Canadian dollars, that I had a return ticket booked & paid for as well as lodging, and a letter of work and an agenda indicating what I would be doing in the US while I was there.
• goodweeds 15y ago
  Huh? I thought Virgin America canceled their routes between SFO and YYZ a year ago?
  • steve8918 15y ago
    They did. The date of the blog post is Jan 2011. I used to fly that a couple of times. I even upgraded to first class a couple of times because it was only $250 extra. I'm actually very disappointed they cancelled that route.
    • mahyarm 15y ago
      God damn it. I would of loved that route!
      • potatolicious 15y ago
        FWIW, they didn't cancel it due to poor ridership - VX decided to concentrate on other routes while their fleet was still small. AFAIK there are still plans to restore the YYZ route once the fleet size is up to par.
    • unreal37 15y ago
      Not only is the article from Jan 2011, he was able to successfully enter the US in March, and seems to be able to go there often now. So really not a problem for him long term. http://zakhomuth.com/guess-who-made-it-into-the-us http://zakhomuth.com/guess-who-made-it-into-the-us
• jrockway 15y ago
  If you're ever locked in a jail cell, I have one word of advice: lawyer.
  • grecy 15y ago
    As a foreigner being detained in the US, with no official status in the US, he had no right to a lawyer.
    • joshAg 15y ago
      Theoretically, the constitution applies to all people in the united states jurisdiction, not just citizens. certain rights, like voting, are given only to citizens, but the Bill of Rights (which gives the right to a lawyer) applies to any person inside the US. Practically, there are a few exceptions to this, eg 4th amendment rights are suspended from everyone at the border and within 100 miles of the border.
      • grecy 15y ago
        >applies to any person inside the US. When detained at a border, a person is not considered inside the US. >Theoretically, the constitution applies to all people in the united states jurisdiction That is absolutely not correct. When I enter the USA on the visa waiver program, it very, very clearly says I have no rights while in the USA. No right to a lawyer, no right to appeal, no right to anything. I must sign that to be allowed in.
        • beachgeek 15y ago
          JoshAg is right. The Bill of Rights applies to everyone. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2001/09/do_noncitizens_have_constitutional_rights.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/20... If what you said is true and they made you sign that form it doesn't matter because the Constitution is still paramount and trumps your signature.
        • vidarh 15y ago
• jakejake 15y ago
  It would have gone much smoother like this: Border Patrol: What is the purpose of your visit? Liar: I'm helping my friend move Border Patrol: How long are you staying? Liar: Heading back on Monday. Border Patrol: OK, have a good trip. The problem is, well, primarily that he chose to lie when crossing the border. But, more specifically he chose the wrong lie to tell. If you're crossing the border and planning to lie about the purpose of your visit, you'd be better off making it easy on yourself and lie about the length of your stay instead. I don't mean to suggest to anyone that you should lie at all - it is much smarter to just tell the truth. I'm just saying that if you are planning to lie because you have the wrong visa type or whatever, then at least be smart about it and think of better story. Otherwise you wind up trying to explain to a border patrol why you are entering the country with no return date and staying for 3 months just to "visit California."
  • leot 15y ago
    Strangely, neither the U.S. nor Canadian border agents stamp passports upon departure. They often have to resort to using people's credit card statements and cell phone records to verify when a person was in one country or the other.
• gabaix 15y ago
  All I can wish you is great success wherever you are. You can wait for a couple of months before coming back. Try a H1B for November 1.
• tnuc 15y ago
  The biggest mistake made here is the inconsistency. He was invited to do business training yet has no job to go back to. At least he didn't do anything stupid enough to get banned for ten years. Next time: Try being nice to the border guard. Let them do their job but at the same time try to engage in some conversation that is of interest to them. Don't try to engage to much. Social engineering goes a lot further than the rule book. Don't forget border guards know how to use the the internet and read his blog/website/Resume. Which leads to the question, if he wasn't working for upverter anymore, what exactly was he wanting to do in the US.
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• nonce43 15y ago
  Some tips for border crossings, based on my Canada to US experiences: The border agents don't like one-way flights. My sister was turned away at the border because she had a one-way flight to visit her boyfriend and they figured she was going to visit illegally. She also had "suspicious" things in her suitcase like a cookbook: "So you're going to take an illegal food service job?" Make sure you can prove you have enough money to support yourself. The guy in line in front of me got sent back once because he couldn't prove this. Avoid hard-to-explain travel arrangements, such as travelling in the US, crossing the border back into Canada to visit someone, then crossing back into the US to catch a plane. My best friend got stuck in Windsor because of this, although his scary hair and beard probably didn't help either. If you have a green card, don't leave it at home by mistake. I got taken into the little room and had to pay a $265 administrative fee because of this. Make sure you have documentation for everything. When my friends drove through the US to a wedding, I told them to make sure they had the invitation, hotel info, etc, to show customs so everything went smoothly. Don't have a complex story that makes no sense. I'm sympathetic to the original author, but reading his post I couldn't figure out what he was really doing in the US and I'm not surprised he got turned away. The strangest questioning I had crossing the border: "Where are you visiting?" "What's your father's name?" "What does your father do?" "A teacher? What school did he teach at?" By this point, I was wondering where this line of questioning was leading. But then the border guard said, "I know your father. He taught me in Grade 11." While I'm on the subject of border crossing, I've opted out of TSA body scanning several times. I've seen complaints from others, but the patdown has always gone smoothly for me.
• theashworld 15y ago
  Wow _you_ got funded for running a company? That's inspiring.
• myearwood 15y ago
  The blame isn't all on the US border officials . you made some dumb choices that madce your sitauation much much worse. It's partly your fault.
• myearwood 15y ago
  The blame isn't all on the US border officials . you made some dumb choices that made your situation much much worse. It's partly your fault.
• wyclif 15y ago
  never enter the US with an unclear leaving date He makes it sound like this is an evil US policy. But in fact, every country I've ever visited outside the US, and I've visited a lot, asked me when I would be leaving and issued the appropriate visa. For example, if you visit the Philippines, the initial visa is 21 days. You can extend the visa, but again you must inform the government of your leave date. But if you mess around with Customs on this, you're likely to get in trouble all over the world, not just in the US.
  • ubernostrum 15y ago
    Honestly, the same is true for Canada. I was in Toronto for a week for work in December, and part of entering the country was presenting a letter signed by our Canadian office verifying that I really would be leaving on the set date, that my accommodations and travel out of Canada were already booked and paid for, etc.
    • pbiggar 15y ago
      Having travelled to both Canada and the US for a dodgy-looking (but in both cases totally legitimate) 3 month visit, I can tell you the Canadians are very much stricter than the American border guards.
      • Spoom 15y ago
        This has not been my experience, but both are much stricter to those who are not their citizens, since they're pretty much charged to be. If you're an American entering Canada, expect to get asked why, and vice versa. It seemed like the OP was trying to enter on a non-work-authorized visa waiver, and that's just not kosher to USCBP. I say this as a US immigrant from Canada. Always make sure you have your ducks in a row at the border. I still find it hard to believe that someone approved to YC would not know that. If you're doing anything more than just visiting, you probably need to apply for a visa in advance. Lying to CBP (they call it "misrepresentation") is grounds for a lifetime ban from the US.
  • nraynaud 15y ago
• bitwize 15y ago
  You can't go anywhere in this post-9/11 world without the potential for being hassled by the gendarmes. When I landed in Helsinki en route to Osaka, I was stopped by a border agent because my passport was not stamped. I was led back into a downright skeery waiting area for what looked like one of those good-cop-bad-cop, beat-the-crap-out-of-the-suspect interrogation rooms you see in cop shows and movies. She also had a pistol on her hip. No mere paper jockey, this one. She had to be ready to shoot a motherfucker. Now as it turns out I landed in France, and to the French, it seems, stamping your passport is something of an optional administrative detail that may be overlooked. So my passport was looked at but not stamped. That raised some WTF alarms when I landed in Finland. (Good old EU! A model of international cooperation!) I tried explaining this in the best way I knew how, me not knowing WTF was going on either since this was my first European landing, and waited, tensely, for 15 minutes while they decided whether to do the old good-cop-bad-cop routine on me. Thankfully, they said I could go. But I was on pins and needles there for a while.
  • nandemo 15y ago
    Out of curiosity, what was the starting point? Wherever you start from, France and Helsinki sounds like an unusual route if you're on the way to Japan.
    • bitwize 15y ago
      Boston. It was actually cheaper if I went that way around the planet via Finnair.
• desireco42 15y ago
  First, as a Canadian, you probably have more right to come here then most others. So I apologize for how they treated you. If it is any consolation, cops do that to us all the time. I don't know why, what is benefit of locking someone innocent or making people accuse themselves (remember, do you know how fast you were driving). Anyhow, sorry, enjoy Canada, who knows why this was good for you. Also, it is not your fault, system is rigged to be abused by everyone else who will work illegally, but you who will not. So now I am ranting.
  • desireco42 15y ago
    I have to add this as well. Going to foreign countries is always unpleasant experience because you are without your support structure. In that regard you were naive and not prepared. I still think we should have agreement with Canada and people should move more easily.
• ajays 15y ago
  Things have changed dramatically since 9/11 . I remember coming back to the US via the same Lewiston bridge, after a night of partying in Canada, and on occasions not even being asked for an ID (I was not a US citizen then, and I'm not white). Maybe it was the car's registration. And a couple of times I was just asked to show my student ID (I was on an F1 visa then).
• jackcviers 15y ago
  Is it just me, or have we become the Evil Empire Reagan warned us about?
  • joering1 15y ago
    no worries: every empire fall before (you can downvote me now)
• k-mcgrady 15y ago
  After reading this it seems like a lot of the guys problems could have been avoided and were his own fault. Now, I think the behaviour of some of the border patrol agents seems unacceptable, but he was trying to enter the US for 3 months with no proof of ties to home and no return flight. Putting the business visa aside, that alone is enough to be rejected. If you have no job, and do not own a house or have a mortgage, and have not booked a return flight home (and I don't believe he had any documents to prove he could afford one) you are going to be rejected. Normally I wouldn't side with border patrol but despite the poor treatment he received he brought a lot of it on himself through poor planning.
• floetic 15y ago
  I was flying to San Francisco one day at Pearson and was faced with a similiar situation. I was turned down and asked to be withdrawn. I had all the necessary paper work and even brought my degree / lawyer look over my papers.
  • potatolicious 15y ago
    Were you applying for a TN via YYZ? That's one of the most notoriously difficult TN gateways, I'm surprised your lawyers let you fly through there. I've seen people go YVR-YOW-ORD-... just to avoid going through either YVR or YYZ.
    • unreal37 15y ago
      I was told once it's better to drive to Niagara Falls, cross the border by car, get the TN there, drive back home, and fly to the US by plane a few days later. TNs are best requested when you don't have a plane to catch in an hour.
• salman89 15y ago
  I think that the author is misleading his readers. YC is a far cry from a training program. "Often this training involves setting up an American corporation for the startup activities - but I'll get to that later.". Why didn't he just say he was accepted into a start-up incubator, and his company was being funded in exchange for a piece of the company that was being incorporated, and that they were going to make a real product and try to find customers for that product? "We go through his whole list and at the very end, he very stubbornly says none of it matters because the real grounds for refusal are that I am trying to start a business in the US as according to the notes on my file by the Lewiston prosecutor. I refute this, explain the documentation prevents and disproves this, I explain and explain and explain and all to no effect." What exactly are you doing in YC then...?
  • vacri 15y ago
    "start-up incubator" doesn't make sense to people outside the industry, and may even seem to be cause for concern.
  • URSpider94 15y ago
    Agreed 200%. Classifying YC as a training program to immigration officials is bordering on fraud. He's lucky that he didn't get banned.
  • rdtsc 15y ago
    > Why didn't he just say he was accepted into a start-up incubator Then they'd arrest him for being a bio-terrorist.
• Kylekramer 15y ago
  Almost comical in how he did everything to seem more suspect (one way travel, long undefined stay, no job, etc.). As an American who went to university in Montreal and holder of the rare distinction of being called a "retard" by an officer in front of a crowded lobby at the Canadian Border, I have more opinions than healthy about the American-Canadian crossing experience. But as the officer who called me a retard told me in the back room, if you aren't a citizen, they are under no obligation to let you in. It is just best to be aware of what they want to hear (you aren't staying, you don't have a lot of cash/booze/cigs/perishable goods, all the papers have been filled, and you don't come across as deceitful) and give the version of the truth that fits that narrative the best.
  • DanBC 15y ago
    > you don't have a lot of cash ...but you have enough that you're not going to need to start working to support yourself.
    • brk 15y ago
      I think they mean as in literal cash on your person vs. access to cash or lines of credit to sustain your living condition.
• holri 15y ago
  It was easier and more fun to get into communist Hungary and Czech Republic in the nineteen eighties.
• deleted 15y ago
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• tkiley 15y ago
  I'm a US Citizen. I recently went through the process of setting up a Canadian subsidiary of my US company, and obtaining a work permit to oversee Canadian operations temporarily. The process was ridiculously stressful and daunting. My company is not exactly a huge economic driver in Canada (right now I'm bringing about $500k per year in local economic investment to BC), but it's amazingly time-consuming to get all the paperwork right and get a work permit. After going through this process to enter Canada, I am considerably more sympathetic and tuned-in to the discussion of immigration reform in the USA. Zak may have technically been in the wrong here (and the border officers may have been correct in turning him away according to the law) but I think the law is profoundly sub-optimal, and it saddens me to see that my native country is this economically backward.
• vacri 15y ago
  Thats right ladies and gentlemen, if I told him the truth he would fight for me, but agreeing to his truth is in conflict with my originally story, and thus I have committed fraud - I believe that is called a catch-22. This reminds me of the difference between Australia and the US in regards to the right to withhold comment. With similar legal backgrounds, there are similar rights about being questioned, but there are subtle differences. In the US there's the good old 5th amendment that everyone knows (from TV if nowhere else). You don't have to comment, and your unwillingness to comment cannot be used against you in court. However the police can quite freely and happily lie to you to get what they want. There are subtle differences here in Australia. You can reserve the right not to comment. You don't have to speak, but depending on circumstance, withholding comment can be used against you in court (I guess for things like "I refuse to say where I was on the night of my wife's murder" kind of stuff, I don't know for sure). But on the other hand, when questioned by police, they have to tell you what they're questioning you about at the start of the interview. If they're questioning you about a robbery down the street and you let slip that you have illegal drugs in the house, it's not connected to their reason for interview and technically they can't use it. There are exceptions for very serious crimes like murder, of course. It means that authorities do not have the right to go on 'fishing expeditions', though I don't know whether it applies to border control. disclaimer: I don't follow law in much detail, just read the above from an Australian law site when I was wondering what our version of "the 5th" was...
  • njharman 15y ago
    The 5th amendment covers US citizens, not foreign nationals attempting to enter country.
    • vacri 15y ago
      I know, but the quote just reminded me of a difference in 'no comment' laws that I thought was curious.
    • srj 15y ago
      Actually I believe foreign nationals are provided many of the same rights that citizens enjoy when within US territory. This comes from the language of the 5th and 14th amendments, they refer to "persons" and not "citizens". Also I recall reading that the 5th amendment right against self incrimination doesn't apply at border crossings for anyone.
• patio11 15y ago
  I have a certain amount of sympathy given that Japanese immigration features in all of my nightmares. That said, attempting to cross borders for the purpose of working illegally (sorry, I don't like the law either, but there is no conceivable way that YC does not count as employment) will not endear you to law enforcement. I wish they had been more polite in the course of discovering your true purpose and refusing you entry, but if they hadn't, that would have been a crazy result under US immigration law. There's better ways to handle one's business and legal affairs tactically, but start with knowing that the US really doesn't have a visa category "People from countries we like, for any purposes whatsoever, no questions."
  • mortenjorck 15y ago
    Any stories of Japanese immigration you'd like to link to/share that might help prepare someone planning on visiting the country?
• rbreve 15y ago
  I am from Honduras and last year I spent 3 months in NYC on the DreamIt incubator program, I just told the customs officer that I was going on a 3 months workshop, he just asked me where I was going to stay, my other 4 friends did the same we all got a 6 month business visa. We got lucky I guess.
• jrmg 15y ago
  I always wonder about legalities when I hear of foreign nationals doing, or applying for, YCombinator or the like. I have a hard time seeing a legal route for them to do it. What is the correct way to do it? Is there one, or are they all bending the rules?
• deleted 15y ago
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• joelhaasnoot 15y ago
  Having gotten a secondary inspection myself because of forgetting to bring a letter from my internship that I was going to, I know what it's like, but if you don't have a suspicious story or one that's easy to track down, it shou;d be fine. Another post mentions money: they just want you to have enough till you get out and not be a burden. They asked me what my parents occupation was (they were my backers), and I did have documentation as to that (their payslips), not that they cared much.
• ari_ 15y ago
  I keep seeing a bunch of US Citizens posting here about issues they have with CBP/DHS on re-entering the US. Just a quick note + a link - you are protected by the fifth amendment and are not required to say a word to any officer at any time. You are NOT protected by the 4th amendment at the border and your consent is not required for any search. http://nomadlaw.com/2010/09/more-law-refusing-answer-questions-at-passport-control/ http://nomadlaw.com/2010/09/more-law-refusing-answer-questio...
• baby 15y ago
  I don't get why it's so difficult to travel from Canada to the U.S. I'm from France and I can travel everywhere in Europe without having to show any identification and without having to prove something... Right now I'm near Toronto and planning to go to the U.S. in a couple of weeks... Heard so many stories about other students buying their plane tickets and then being stucked at the border, and now this rant, I'm shitting myself.
  • beachgeek 15y ago
    Calm down. Just have your papers in order, be polite and courteous and you'll be fine. Enjoy your trip!
• meiji 15y ago
  I've never had an awful lot of sympathy for people who assume that because they know they're not up to anything dodgy that the immigration people will know too. I was married in the US and knew that when I went on my honeymoon I better have letters from my employer in the UK as well as my return ticket or I might get refused entry to the US when I was heading back to where my new wife lived. Predictably I ended up in secondary checks, they were fine and I moved on. I've had the same half a dozen times when traveling for funerals, weddings or just holidays. My wife was also interrogated by British immigration for two hours before we got married. Again they want proof that you're up to no harm and it's your job to do that. A former colleague of mine tried to get his American girlfriend to the UK and they had massively different stories when she arrived. She got a 1-month holiday visa and a severe threat that both (he was a US citizen) would be deported if she overstayed by even a single day. The onus is on the person crossing the border to know what they're doing. There's plenty of info, particularly on going to the US and no excuse not to prepare, especially if you're going for work not a holiday.
• georgieporgie 15y ago
  How did this guy start a business in the US, as a Canadian? I know there are proxy services where you are a minority shareholder, but that wasn't mentioned. If you start a business, you are an employee of that business. People who say, "I'm self employed," are technically wrong. They are actually employed by the business they started. It's sad that the border between the US and Canada isn't as wonderfully open as it once was. I, myself, have been annoyed by border agents (particularly when arriving late at night on a bicycle, for a poorly-planned trip down the Pacific coast). However, this guy just walked into it soo badly. It's like he didn't give a moment's thought to the fact he was entering another country to conduct his business. By the way, always arrive in a country with either return airfare or a printout of bank balances to show you can support yourself for the duration of your stay.
  • btbuilder 15y ago
    Anyone can start an LLC, there's no restriction. There's no law that says a foreigner can't own majority shares in US companies (apart from airlines). You aren't necessary an employee of a company you start. If you aren't on the payroll, you aren't an employee. If you start a company, then take profits as dividends, you aren't an employee. You may not even be working as you might just be an investor with a bunch of smart nationals you want to hire. None of this has anything to do with immigration. You might or might not be 'working' but that has nothing to do with being an employee. 'Working' includes working for free. I know someone who came to the US for 6 months on a B1 visa after explaining to the US embassy he would be 'meeting with engineers', 'negotiating contract' and 'communicating with team back in home country'. This is not working, this is a 'business visit'. On top of this these are perfectly fine reasons for certain nationals (think western Europe) while someone from India would very likely be declined.
    • georgieporgie 15y ago
      Anyone can start an LLC, there's no restriction I believe that is false. In order to start a company, you need a federal employer ID number. In order to get an EIN, you need an officer who has a social security number. I believe you are talking about a setup where a lawyer is the principal officer of your company and has agreed to defer to you. This is nothing at all like starting a company within your own state, as a US citizen, which is a simple and (generally) inexpensive affair. You aren't necessary an employee of a company you start. In fact, you are. If you perform any services, you are an employee of the company, regardless of how you are compensated. I would give you a link, but it's from a Nolo Press book. And no offense, but I trust Nolo Press more than I trust you. :-)
• corkill 15y ago
  It's important to frame your story in a way they can understand. e.g. if you are an entrepreneur winging it to the USA. Just make sure that you frame it in terms they understand, instead of relying on your version of the truth to save you. e.g. most border guards believe you need a 9-5 job for life and if you don't have that you are probably up to no good. So answer with that in mind. Don't include irrelevant details that don't fit what they can understand. The more stuff you say they don't understand the worse off you will be.
• ck2 15y ago
  Damn this country is disgusting. For what little it's worth I apologize for those that refuse to. Yes I know there are worse places in the world but that doesn't mean we have to be a-holes ourselves. And stop apologizing for border guards - they don't take that occupation to do anything noble, they take it because they get off on it.
• rickmb 15y ago
  I can't believe how many people are defending this because "those are the rules". FYI: If a visitor from a friendly first world nation tries to enter your country carrying a valid passport, the appropriate response at the border should be: "welcome". The one in a million who wants to enter the country with the intention of outstaying their welcome can do this so easily by booking a hotel and having a return ticket that is is really not worth harassing all the other visitors for.
• alan_cx 15y ago
  I can only read so many comments, so if this has been covered, apologies. I don't think any one begrudges countries their border paranoia. But what is utterly un-necessary is the rude, psychotic, OTT behaviour of the border people. Fine that they want to check people out, but to scream, shot, and abuse people visiting is frankly outrageous. I've rarely left my country, and every time it was no pain what so ever. But after reading that, which confirms all the negative press, has confirmed that I will never ever travel to the USA. Why would any one want to risk that?
• seclorum 15y ago
  Its not so hard: get a Visa before you go to the US. Don't just assume you can cross the border like its some sort of drive-through situation. If you know you need to visit the US, go to the US Embassy in your country and file your paperwork.
• JohnGB 15y ago
  My girlfriend has traveled to 60+ countries around the world, and she said that the US border experience was worse than any other country she has been to by a long margin. It's a pity that the first welcome people get amounts to "we don't want you here".
• yason 15y ago
  So what we learn is that it doesn't really matter if you're trying to be honest down to details or enter with illegal plans to stay in the US: what matters is not appearing different, and hopefully be equipped with a rehearsed canned explanation that comes with paperwork to back it up. The border officers ask generic questions and try to see how you respond to them. This is good because the response will reveal more than your words. However, the caveat is that if you honestly enter with a reason that is somewhat out of ordinary then you just make it more complex the more honest details you spit out. On the other hand, if you manage to appear like the thousand other people who went across the border the same day, you can have lots of things that you never need to or want to explain. So, it comes down to playing a role. Rehearsing answers to likely questions helps not because you'd want to learn to lie to the border officials but to keep the process smooth by sticking to its rules. Unfortunately, the same rehearsal will allow you to cover a purpose of the trip you don't want to reveal.
  • gcp 15y ago
    So, it comes down to playing a role. That's why they call it "security theatre".
• tluyben2 15y ago
  At the Vancouver to US border, when I was was on vacation, I had a bit of trouble not to laugh: all these guys were very big dudes in uniforms with glasses and mustaches. They all looked exactly alike. Anyway; it was an interesting experience.
• krschultz 15y ago
  You need a laywer. Plain and simple. There are very good lawyers for this type of stuff - unfortunately they are not cheap and I assume the cost would eat most of the YC investment. But it can be cleared up and worked out if you want to. Having done business across this border before I'm sorry to say this is a very typical story. Recreational travel across the US/Canada border is quite simple but both sides are sticklers for business travel. People have crossed 50 times to go skiing or visit family without a problem and get used to that process, and then show up the 51st time saying they're on a business trip and end up getting refused because they don't have the right visa.
  • leot 15y ago
    It's really not that complicated, at least when going between the US and Canada. A lawyer is perhaps a good idea for getting an H1-B, but beyond that, not so much. Immigration law is more straightforward than other areas, it seems. Perhaps because it's less adversarial. I used this guy's website to successfully (and without hassle) get a US work visa: http://www.grasmick.com/ http://www.grasmick.com/ I'm constantly back-and-forth between the US and Canada, on a variety of visas. Generally, US customs officials based in Canada are far nicer. It's good to try and minimize the possibility that they'll be cranky or see you as suspect. I never feel like I have a right to enter the country I'm not a citizen of. Also, if you're frequently back-and-forth between the US and Canada, you might consider getting a NEXUS pass. If you're Canadian it's just $50, good for five years, and should minimize border agent hassle.
• deleted 15y ago
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• DanielBMarkham 15y ago
  I'm filing this in a long list of "be careful about crossing borders" articles. Seriously folks, this isn't like walking to the corner grocery. Know what documents to have, what to say, how to act -- everything -- before you cross the border. There are lots of people who get paid everyday to "protect" their country, and they would like nothing more than to have an excuse to fuck with you. Now you may not like that. I do not like that at all. As an American, I really wish we could be more friendly about these things. I love my country and am proud of it, but I am also ashamed about it in many ways. This is one of them. But whether we like it or not or whether we're ashamed of it or not -- you still gotta know what the hell you are doing when you go to cross a border. I wish I could upvote this, but sadly it's just too much like a bunch of other articles.
• deleted 15y ago
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• captainaj 15y ago
  I'm sorry for the author's experience but knowledge and preparation is the key to winning the war i.e. getting in the US and/or stay for certain amount of times. I'm not a lawyer but I have filed visa applications and petitions with the US Immigration Office USCIS many times by myself and have always been successful despite the fact that my country used to be in a war with the US. The laws are complicated if you don't read ahead and prep. If you do, it's a breeze. Hope this helps someone: visajourney dot com
• mmaunder 15y ago
  For what it's worth, setting up a C corp in the USA as a non-resident, which is technically legal, will almost certainly flag you for further interrogation by DHS. If they can find any reason to refuse entry, they will. It's happened to me. [I'm now a US citizen.]
• jinushaun 15y ago
  I travel a lot and I've never had as much problem traveling internationally as I do dealing with Canadian border guards. Oy vey. I always seem to get pulled over. I've since learned to practice my answers in a terse cold unfriendly manner. Smiles and friendly doesn't work.
• kjetil 15y ago
  Are people in the US aware that visitors have to agree to be fingerprinted to enter the country? When I told an (American) friend about this the last time I visited the US, she refused to believe it.
  • leot 15y ago
    No, not all of them. Not all the time. Canadians entering from Canada, and usually people entering on a tourist visa, don't need to be fingerprinted.
    • mahyarm 15y ago
      I got it for my first TN visa, although I really don't know if that was necessary, since she seem a bit new. She was really nice too!
• coldarchon 15y ago
  Once I was invited to a conference at the MIT in Boston. My travel agency got me a room in the nearby Marriott in Cambridge and told me I just had to get a subway to the square nearby to the hotel. That was not enough information for the border guard at the airport in Boston. He just wouldn't let me go through. I was arguing 15 minutes until someone offered me his mobile to call the Hotel to ask for the address and street number. Not again. Never.