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> Heard about this ordeal on NPR a while back. It's crazy how dependent a community can become on a piece of software and at the same time no one takes measures

by kodah 4y ago

> Heard about this ordeal on NPR a while back. It's crazy how dependent a community can become on a piece of software and at the same time no one takes measures on preservation or open sourcing that software. I don't even think this necessarily has to do with open sourcing necessarily. This is a wider software conundrum as well. From the article: > The first warning Shepard got was when she went to update her Mac, and the system warned her that TropeTrainer wouldn’t run on the newest OS Operating System updates frequently break software. Operating System transitions break software a lot. This is a thorny issue, imo, because on the one hand when people buy software I doubt they're thinking about how it'll be useless if the Operating System's company (or community) think they can do better with new APIs and behavior. On the other hand, updates are part of moving something as vast as an OS forward, and at least some amount of the time they're necessary. Windows provides some ways of running older software in a VM. I'd be curious if they've tried such a thing with this software. MacOS I'm not so sure of, since even the ISOs are somewhat controlled.

colechristensen 4y ago
Yes you can get very old software running in Windows using various compatibility tools. Like isn't it possible to get Windows 3.1 software running on the latest releases of Windows? There's definitely just a setting in Windows 10 to run compatibility modes back to Vista. Earlier versions of windows that can be run in HyperV can go further back. Not so much MacOS after a few years, though they did release Rosetta and Rosetta 2 to handle the transitions to and away from Intel processors.
- sumtechguy 4y ago
  The only way you can get win311 software working on win10 is to install the 32 bit version (aside from emulation). Not sure win 11 has a 32 bit version. Also win311 apps can be wildly picky what sort of dlls are installed. So your mileage can vary.
  - theodric 4y ago
    There are workarounds, e.g. http://www.columbia.edu/~em36/ntvdmx64.html http://www.columbia.edu/~em36/ntvdmx64.html
- unyttigfjelltol 4y ago
  On Linux, as long as the program is compatible with Wine[1] to begin with, Wine will support programs that that require basically any Windows version. Maybe this specific community needs to spin up some Ubuntu or OpenSuse boxes? [1] https://www.winehq.org/ https://www.winehq.org/
- cratermoon 4y ago
  Yes, I'm running some proprietary software for my Nikon Coolscan film scanner. Compatibility mode and a some other stuff.
- TylerE 4y ago
  No, and it's much more thorny than you make it out to me. Windows Vista (I think... 7 for sure) and later cannot run 16bit exes at all. While the software itself was 32bit, many of the intallers of that era were Intallshield/InstallerWise that were still actually 16bit, so while if you could get the thing installed...you can't.
  - nradov 4y ago
    Windows 7 included an "XP Mode" virtual machine which could run 16 bit applications.
  - iforgotpassword 4y ago
    Wrong, it's the 64 bit versions that can't run 16 bit software. But even Windows 10 can run 3.11 apps if you use the 32 bit release.
fnordpiglet 4y ago
Open source means that anyone sufficiently able and sufficiently motivated can keep up with these changes. In that humans have to be touching code to keep up with api / abi changes, not letting humans touch code is the actual problem in this case. The human that did died, and the humans left kept it closed source.
- yetanotherloser 4y ago
  That looks a lot like a claim that software only deserves to exist if it is made by, or attracts the fanatical devotion of, people who have a deep love of maintaining software against a moving target. Ugh. The expectation that once you've made something you can't expect it to keep working without endless catchup, attitudes like this one, are why I have completely given up making software for fun or to solve noncommercial problems for myself and others. I'm not the only one.
  - WJW 4y ago
    > The expectation that once you've made something you can't expect it to keep working I don't think there is a single type of item in the world for which you could expect it to keep existing indefinitely without maintenance. Machines rust, wood degrades, paintings need restoring every few centuries. And even when properly stored in controlled atmosphere etc, books from a few centuries ago are almost unreadable because the language has changed so much since then (see https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/diagram_4english.html https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/diagram_4english.html for example). Everything in this world needs constant maintenance or it breaks down. Why would you expect software to be any different?
    - themaninthedark 4y ago
      I expect it to be different because it is different. Machines rusting and painting needing restoration is because they oxidize. Wood does not magically degrade, it decomposes. These are physical phenomena confined to the physical world. Your example of the book being unreadable because people's language changed, that is a closer example but even that falls short because language is a human to human communication pathway. We have to spend literal years training people to understand it, it is inherently chaotic and messy. Software is math, it is engineered. We don't wake up to find that suddenly the coefficient of friction is different and now our tires fail to grip the road. Or more to the point, that our speed and feed calculators are now trash and will crash the endmill into material ruining the machine and part. Computers and their ability to run or not run software after and update is completely in the control of the people programing the updates. The reason so much software fails is because either A. It was not well designed to begin with or B. the people creating the update did not design it well.
newaccount74 4y ago
Running old versions of macOS with VMWare Fusion is pretty easy as long as you still have an Intel Mac. I've been doing it for years to build legacy software, and for testing software compatibility with old versions of macOS.

by kodah 4y ago

colechristensen 4y ago

Yes you can get very old software running in Windows using various compatibility tools. Like isn't it possible to get Windows 3.1 software running on the latest releases of Windows? There's definitely just a setting in Windows 10 to run compatibility modes back to Vista. Earlier versions of windows that can be run in HyperV can go further back. Not so much MacOS after a few years, though they did release Rosetta and Rosetta 2 to handle the transitions to and away from Intel processors.

sumtechguy 4y ago
The only way you can get win311 software working on win10 is to install the 32 bit version (aside from emulation). Not sure win 11 has a 32 bit version. Also win311 apps can be wildly picky what sort of dlls are installed. So your mileage can vary.
- theodric 4y ago
  There are workarounds, e.g. http://www.columbia.edu/~em36/ntvdmx64.html http://www.columbia.edu/~em36/ntvdmx64.html
unyttigfjelltol 4y ago
On Linux, as long as the program is compatible with Wine[1] to begin with, Wine will support programs that that require basically any Windows version. Maybe this specific community needs to spin up some Ubuntu or OpenSuse boxes? [1] https://www.winehq.org/ https://www.winehq.org/
cratermoon 4y ago
Yes, I'm running some proprietary software for my Nikon Coolscan film scanner. Compatibility mode and a some other stuff.
TylerE 4y ago
No, and it's much more thorny than you make it out to me. Windows Vista (I think... 7 for sure) and later cannot run 16bit exes at all. While the software itself was 32bit, many of the intallers of that era were Intallshield/InstallerWise that were still actually 16bit, so while if you could get the thing installed...you can't.
- nradov 4y ago
  Windows 7 included an "XP Mode" virtual machine which could run 16 bit applications.
- iforgotpassword 4y ago
  Wrong, it's the 64 bit versions that can't run 16 bit software. But even Windows 10 can run 3.11 apps if you use the 32 bit release.

fnordpiglet 4y ago

Open source means that anyone sufficiently able and sufficiently motivated can keep up with these changes. In that humans have to be touching code to keep up with api / abi changes, not letting humans touch code is the actual problem in this case. The human that did died, and the humans left kept it closed source.

yetanotherloser 4y ago
That looks a lot like a claim that software only deserves to exist if it is made by, or attracts the fanatical devotion of, people who have a deep love of maintaining software against a moving target. Ugh. The expectation that once you've made something you can't expect it to keep working without endless catchup, attitudes like this one, are why I have completely given up making software for fun or to solve noncommercial problems for myself and others. I'm not the only one.
- WJW 4y ago
  > The expectation that once you've made something you can't expect it to keep working I don't think there is a single type of item in the world for which you could expect it to keep existing indefinitely without maintenance. Machines rust, wood degrades, paintings need restoring every few centuries. And even when properly stored in controlled atmosphere etc, books from a few centuries ago are almost unreadable because the language has changed so much since then (see https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/diagram_4english.html https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/diagram_4english.html for example). Everything in this world needs constant maintenance or it breaks down. Why would you expect software to be any different?
  - themaninthedark 4y ago
    I expect it to be different because it is different. Machines rusting and painting needing restoration is because they oxidize. Wood does not magically degrade, it decomposes. These are physical phenomena confined to the physical world. Your example of the book being unreadable because people's language changed, that is a closer example but even that falls short because language is a human to human communication pathway. We have to spend literal years training people to understand it, it is inherently chaotic and messy. Software is math, it is engineered. We don't wake up to find that suddenly the coefficient of friction is different and now our tires fail to grip the road. Or more to the point, that our speed and feed calculators are now trash and will crash the endmill into material ruining the machine and part. Computers and their ability to run or not run software after and update is completely in the control of the people programing the updates. The reason so much software fails is because either A. It was not well designed to begin with or B. the people creating the update did not design it well.

newaccount74 4y ago

Running old versions of macOS with VMWare Fusion is pretty easy as long as you still have an Intel Mac. I've been doing it for years to build legacy software, and for testing software compatibility with old versions of macOS.