16 ms·

Rational Dress Society

237 points by samclemens 4y ago

r3trohack3r 4y ago
Wikipedia is my favorite source of fun facts. Most folks don’t know this but there is a “random” button on Wikipedia that will take you to a random article! It’s a great way to spend an afternoon. If the noise/signal ratio with that button is too high, I built wikiscroll.blankenship.io for my own use (built on a similar mechanism) you’re free to use it!
narrator 4y ago
Being at the bottom of the slippery slope more than a century later of what women wear out is kind of fun with the parade of "scrunch butt" leggings I've been seeing at the gym lately. I wonder what they'll come up with next. Maybe they'll make them largely transparent? Isn't the march of progress just wonderful?
lurtbancaster 4y ago
Only points 1 through 3 and the latter half of point 4 are "rational". Because Points 4 and 5 conflict with points 1 through 3. "Grace and beauty" is culturally determined and is in the subjective eye of the beholder. Optimizing a given piece of clothing for "grace and beauty" and "Not departing too conspicuously from the ordinary dress of the time", often inherently entails de-prioritizing the rational ideals laid out in points 1 through 3, and the latter half of point 4. I am someone who used a fanny pack back when it was "in fashion"(according to some), and kept wearing it even when it went "out of fashion"(according to some), and I still keep wearing it, and I'm told by some that it's starting to come back to being "in fashion" again. I don't care about "grace and beauty" and conforming to the ever-changing arbitrary dressing norms(whims) of society. The fanny pack is extremely useful to me. And so are cargo pants. I wore and still wear cargo pants, sweatpants, and shorts, pretty much everywhere. Even to weddings. Yeah, I get weird looks. I do it regardless. I don't care. If you don't want to associate with me for this reason, good riddance, I say. My insistence on wearing cargo pants and fanny packs serves as an incidentally beneficial filter against conformist people. If I had to observe points 4 and 5, I will have had to redesign the fanny pack and cargo pants and sweatpants, nerfing its functionality, going against points 1 through 3. I haven't purchased new piece of clothing over 20 years and I don't see myself ever needing to do so ever again. So I would add a point 6 - * "Only buy clothes that last. Buy once. Use forever. Also learn to mend your clothes." *
senortumnus 4y ago
Proto hipsters in a good way
- unmole 4y ago
  How are they hipsters?
chris_wot 4y ago
Wait till you learn about the Sunday Lecture Society.
- DubiousPusher 4y ago
  Oh god it's too good. IDK if 1860s British culture war sucks harder than 2020s culture war or what. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_One_Christian_Ministries https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_One_Christian_Ministries
  - pjc50 4y ago
    Some of it is essentially the same, pushed by the same religious groups.
- 7373737373 4y ago
  Or the Cloud Appreciation Society
- nativeit 4y ago
  Are they the originators of the Royal Society Lectures that continue to this day? I saw Chucky D. and several other notable 19th century academics were members.
  - chris_wot 4y ago
    I think it was the precursor. It’s been a while since I wrote that article.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
eternalban 4y ago
Oscar Wilde and Karl Marx and Engels all wrote for the New York Tribute. It also published the very same man who founded both the Republican Party and The New York Times. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New-York_Tribune#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New-York_Tribune#History
bunabhucan 4y ago
Dress rehearsal for: https://live.staticflickr.com/754/23070284806_5a81f5805e_o.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/754/23070284806_5a81f5805e_o.j...
jancsika 4y ago
Unfortunately, popular music of this era lacked both the speed and momentum sufficient to power the movement. It wasn't until James P. Johnson's invention of his famous Charleston engine in the 1920s that women's dresses were finally able to reach escape velocity. Edit: get that pun right!
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ashton314 4y ago
My wife (and most other modern women too probably) would add “pockets on everything” and “more than a single dimension on pant sizes”.
- littlelady 4y ago
  Women's clothing at the time of the Rational Dress Society (1880s) was beginning to shift moving from huge pockets, to adopting menswear integrated pockets. Older pockets were typically little bags that were worn under the dress[1]. Modern people interested in historical costuming and clothing are trying to bring back the pocket[2]. Bernadette Banner also has a video on the history of pockets in women's clothing[3]. Personally, I don't care about pockets in pants--pockets in skirts/dresses are where it's at. [1]: https://kingandallen.co.uk/journal/2020/the-surprising-history-of-pockets/ https://kingandallen.co.uk/journal/2020/the-surprising-histo... [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phFUTqoW5B8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phFUTqoW5B8 [3]: https://youtu.be/uaRoWPEUTI4 https://youtu.be/uaRoWPEUTI4
  - ozim 4y ago
    Lately I tested if waist bag is much more convenient than pants pockets. It really is. When sitting in car or walking having my phone in it is much more comfortable. Especially with larger phones. Unfortunately for me it is connected to shady people so I have mental block with just wearing it. Other downside is that it would be easier to steal it from me with all stuff in it or from it. Though I usually move in areas where there ar no or not that many pickpockets.
- t-3 4y ago
  Pockets at all, pockets that aren't fake stitching meant to give the illusion of a pocket, pockets that can actually fit anything in them, no fake zipper flaps, right-handed zippers and buttons... Sorry, I used to work at a dry cleaner.
- tgv 4y ago
  My guess is that this wasn't about clothing, but an careful attempt at a Women's Lib movement, couched in terms that nobody could reasonably oppose.
atoav 4y ago
Curious, and relevant. Certain fashion choices¹ will just collide with the way bicycles work — be it today or in the past. ¹ back then women certainly didn't have that much choice, or they had but it came with it's own set of consequences
hoseja 4y ago
A well-made corset is a snug, comfortable, supportive garment that doesn't impede movement.
- rgoulter 4y ago
  Right, Bernadette Banner's video discussing this, explaining why "corset = restrictive" is a myth, is interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rExJskBZcW0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rExJskBZcW0
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    The core of her argument is about actual fainting, permanent organ damage and rib deformation (which are probably myths, I am totally with her). It's a different question from "is it restrictive" though.
  - frameset 4y ago
    Thanks for linking this channel. Her costumery is so interesting and elegant.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  "well-made" doesn't feel like the correct description TBH. Corsets can be made comfortable and unrestricting, but that was not the primary goal, nor the common use case. And yes, some corsets were made specially for sporty activities for instance. I feel this reaction around corset kinda mimic the "suits can be made as comfortable as pajamas" rethoric. Sure they can, but the primary reason this has to be stated is because that requires tremendous and specialized effort that goes against the primary goal of the garment.
  - scrollaway 4y ago
    > I feel this reaction around corset kinda mimic the "suits can be made as comfortable as pajamas" rethoric. Sure they can, but the primary reason this has to be stated is because that requires tremendous and specialized effort that goes against the primary goal of the garment. Oh friend, it doesn’t. Not for men’s suits I mean; I don’t know much about women’s clothing. I am a short but beefy guy, shopping is hell and always has been. I had resigned myself to the idea that if I wanted a comfortable suit, I would have to get it tailor made. I have uncomfortable suits I wore for funerals and what not, hated every minute of it. Turns out, go in the right shop (boss in my case) and I was able to find a comfortable one, with a look I love, for 800 eur. And it is absolutely as comfy as pjs. I’ve never before worn a suit for fun; I am the kind of guy who wears sports clothes most of the time. I did have to get the leggings and sleeves shortened but that doesn’t feel like a “tremendous and specialised effort”, more run of the mill 1m60 man woes.
canistel 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channar_revolt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channar_revolt In Kerala, Southern India, which had the wierdest system of caste and associated rules of segregation, women had start with the struggle to clothe their upper body.
- nsajko 4y ago
  The opposite of "free the nipple"!
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - 4ggr0 4y ago
    "free the nipple" could be understood as "let people freely decide what they want to do with their nipples" :)
    - globular-toast 4y ago
      Are there any societies where individuals decide how to dress rather than broadly following what is acceptable to that society?
      - oh_sigh 4y ago
        Clothing, besides for utilitarian purposes like heat regulation and skin protection, is also about signaling and communicating to others. So I would expect it to be rare to find it divorced from that secondary purpose anywhere.
      - dalbasal 4y ago
        Not entirely, but that's neither here nor there. Rational dress, free the nipple, cover the nipple, victorian style, SV hoodie culture and all these other fashion/dress movements are about deciding/changing what is broadly acceptable to that society, with both "acceptable" and "broadly" on the table. Take both OP's comment rational dress and most reform based or freedom based movements' position to be heavy on the "more broad" side. The victorians/etc. on the "more acceptable" side.
pndy 4y ago
Walking between articles starting from this one, an hour later I'm reading about royal cypher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_cypher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_cypher
AlecSchueler 4y ago
It's kind of scary that this looks so quaint and antiquated but we still live in a time when the dress of women is limited both legally and socially, with restrictions on everything from where they can breastfeed to the number of pockets they can get. The older I get the more egrarious it all feels. It also seems more normalised for younger men to hold explicitly misogynistic viewpoints about these issues.
- frogulis 4y ago
  > number of pockets they can get Does this come under the "legally" or "socially"?
  - AlecSchueler 4y ago
    That's a social issue.
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    In weird ways, it can be in the "legally" camp... There will be offices where the uniform or dress code is mandated by law, and the number of pockets will be whatever the uniform designer decided it would be. It's not specific to women per se, but there will probably be some differences in the design of both uniforms. Basically that would be the social norms getting burned into legal requirements, until the uniforms are redone.
    - mcv 4y ago
      Uniforms can also be limiting to men. There have been cases during hot summers where uniformed men wanted to wear shorts, but shorts weren't part of the uniform. Women did have the option to choose between trousers and skirts, though, so men started to wear skirts too. Because those were part of the uniform and therefore allowed.
      - AlecSchueler 4y ago
        The also limiting to men thing is a fair point and worth remembering but it's good to keep in mind that both men and women are here being limited by patriarchal social norms. Skirts are seen as less practical and preferable for aesthetics, which makes them feminine and therefore off limits for men who are pressured to be strong and practical.
eimrine 4y ago
It reminds me the Diderot effect which was discussed here a week ago.
fangorn 4y ago
I guess that's the proof things are going backwards in the UK, they've recently gotten rid of no. 1 - "Freedom of Movement": https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/immigration-and-social-security-co-ordination-eu-withdrawal-bill/factsheet-2-end-of-free-movement https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/immigration-and-s...
realjhol 4y ago
There's nothing particularly rational about this. Like so much or modernity, it's just a set of aesthetic preferences dressed up in the mantle of rationalism.
- andrepd 4y ago
  I dunno, it sounds pretty clear to me. > The Rational Dress Society protests against the introduction of any fashion in dress that either deforms the figure, impedes the movements of the body, or in any way tends to injure the health.
  - realjhol 4y ago
    Right- but all of those criteria are highly subjective. And even the question of why these goals are important versus any other concerns is subjective. Dress is form of self expression - intrinsicly so. Rationalism is absurd, and this is a great example of why. Humans almost never do anything on a purely rational basis. Everything we do is directed by subjectivity, emotion, aesthetics etc. - it's better to be honest about this and embrace it, rather than fooling one's self that one's aesthetic preferences are anything more than subjective.
    - dsr_ 4y ago
      You're looking at this from a modern perspective. The Victorian perspective was that the rules of society were the rules of Nature -- or God -- and that conformity to them directly indicated your moral worth.
    - kdmccormick 4y ago
      Read the article.
    - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
      In a word: Corsets. If you don't already know, look at what Victorian corsets actually did to women, and all three points will make sense. They make sense for other reasons as well, but corsets are enough.
r9295 4y ago
Sounds like Bauhaus
scotty79 4y ago
I think we need this today for mens trousers. Some of those are so low that they seriously impede movements and lead to tripping and falling. High heels can also be a serious danger to the wearer. Probably some other things too. I don't really know fashion, but it would be great if people finally after all these years started a movement to evaluate fashion according to rational principles.
frodetb 4y ago
This is a premise I can get behind. One of the silliest battles I have found myself fighting against society has been my search for comfortable yet attractive men's pants. I deeply dislike the restricting fit of modern pants, especially tighter fitting jeans, but also the semi-current fashion in suits and pants in general. It may be that a catalyst for this conflict has been my anatomy. My thighs and butt are huge, compared to other guys of similar proportions, and so apparently they cannot be contained by modern fashions. Every time I try to put on a pair, they're either too loose in the waist, or too tight in the thighs, and always sit too low for my liking, digging into my groin if I force the belt to sit at my waist. And should i find a pair that feels acceptable at first, my optimism only lasts until I have to sit down and feel the edge of these clothes digging uncomfortably into my flesh, rekindling my hatred for these trends and their designers. The current resolution to my woes has been Darcy Clothing's line of suspender pants[1], which I have had tailored after purchase to taper and fit my height. However, this look is quite jarring in a modern environment, so I tend to wear a sweater over the suspenders. Still, I sometimes need to take it off, and wearing something like this day in and out puts quite a label on you. Still to this day I keep my eyes open, hoping that the pants of my desires will appear in a shop somewhere, or that trends will change, and we get style in service of comfort, instead of discomfort in service of style. [1] https://www.darcyclothing.com/collections/mens-trousers https://www.darcyclothing.com/collections/mens-trousers
- chlodwig 4y ago
  Have you tried the J.Crew 1040 Athletic tapered-fit stretch chino pant? It's designed with a bigger thigh for guys who don't skip leg day -- https://www.jcrew.com/m/mens/categories/clothing/pants-and-chinos/athletic/1040-athletic-tapered-fit-stretch-chino-pant/MP714?display=all&fit=Athletic%20Tapered&color_name=weathered-chino&colorProductCode=AV209 https://www.jcrew.com/m/mens/categories/clothing/pants-and-c...
  - flappyeagle 4y ago
    Slim is on its way out. OP might as well wear something aggressively comfortable and forward looking https://www.jcrew.com/p/mens/categories/clothing/pants-and-chinos/chino/giant-fit-chino-pant/BI521 https://www.jcrew.com/p/mens/categories/clothing/pants-and-c...

237 points by samclemens 4y ago

Wikipedia is my favorite source of fun facts. Most folks don’t know this but there is a “random” button on Wikipedia that will take you to a random article! It’s a great way to spend an afternoon. If the noise/signal ratio with that button is too high, I built wikiscroll.blankenship.io for my own use (built on a similar mechanism) you’re free to use it!

narrator 4y ago

Being at the bottom of the slippery slope more than a century later of what women wear out is kind of fun with the parade of "scrunch butt" leggings I've been seeing at the gym lately. I wonder what they'll come up with next. Maybe they'll make them largely transparent? Isn't the march of progress just wonderful?

lurtbancaster 4y ago

Only points 1 through 3 and the latter half of point 4 are "rational". Because Points 4 and 5 conflict with points 1 through 3. "Grace and beauty" is culturally determined and is in the subjective eye of the beholder. Optimizing a given piece of clothing for "grace and beauty" and "Not departing too conspicuously from the ordinary dress of the time", often inherently entails de-prioritizing the rational ideals laid out in points 1 through 3, and the latter half of point 4. I am someone who used a fanny pack back when it was "in fashion"(according to some), and kept wearing it even when it went "out of fashion"(according to some), and I still keep wearing it, and I'm told by some that it's starting to come back to being "in fashion" again. I don't care about "grace and beauty" and conforming to the ever-changing arbitrary dressing norms(whims) of society. The fanny pack is extremely useful to me. And so are cargo pants. I wore and still wear cargo pants, sweatpants, and shorts, pretty much everywhere. Even to weddings. Yeah, I get weird looks. I do it regardless. I don't care. If you don't want to associate with me for this reason, good riddance, I say. My insistence on wearing cargo pants and fanny packs serves as an incidentally beneficial filter against conformist people. If I had to observe points 4 and 5, I will have had to redesign the fanny pack and cargo pants and sweatpants, nerfing its functionality, going against points 1 through 3. I haven't purchased new piece of clothing over 20 years and I don't see myself ever needing to do so ever again. So I would add a point 6 - * "Only buy clothes that last. Buy once. Use forever. Also learn to mend your clothes." *

senortumnus 4y ago

Proto hipsters in a good way

unmole 4y ago
How are they hipsters?

chris_wot 4y ago

Wait till you learn about the Sunday Lecture Society.

DubiousPusher 4y ago
Oh god it's too good. IDK if 1860s British culture war sucks harder than 2020s culture war or what. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_One_Christian_Ministries https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_One_Christian_Ministries
- pjc50 4y ago
  Some of it is essentially the same, pushed by the same religious groups.
7373737373 4y ago
Or the Cloud Appreciation Society
nativeit 4y ago
Are they the originators of the Royal Society Lectures that continue to this day? I saw Chucky D. and several other notable 19th century academics were members.
- chris_wot 4y ago
  I think it was the precursor. It’s been a while since I wrote that article.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

eternalban 4y ago

Oscar Wilde and Karl Marx and Engels all wrote for the New York Tribute. It also published the very same man who founded both the Republican Party and The New York Times. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New-York_Tribune#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New-York_Tribune#History

bunabhucan 4y ago

Dress rehearsal for: https://live.staticflickr.com/754/23070284806_5a81f5805e_o.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/754/23070284806_5a81f5805e_o.j...

jancsika 4y ago

Unfortunately, popular music of this era lacked both the speed and momentum sufficient to power the movement. It wasn't until James P. Johnson's invention of his famous Charleston engine in the 1920s that women's dresses were finally able to reach escape velocity. Edit: get that pun right!

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ashton314 4y ago

My wife (and most other modern women too probably) would add “pockets on everything” and “more than a single dimension on pant sizes”.

littlelady 4y ago
Women's clothing at the time of the Rational Dress Society (1880s) was beginning to shift moving from huge pockets, to adopting menswear integrated pockets. Older pockets were typically little bags that were worn under the dress[1]. Modern people interested in historical costuming and clothing are trying to bring back the pocket[2]. Bernadette Banner also has a video on the history of pockets in women's clothing[3]. Personally, I don't care about pockets in pants--pockets in skirts/dresses are where it's at. [1]: https://kingandallen.co.uk/journal/2020/the-surprising-history-of-pockets/ https://kingandallen.co.uk/journal/2020/the-surprising-histo... [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phFUTqoW5B8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phFUTqoW5B8 [3]: https://youtu.be/uaRoWPEUTI4 https://youtu.be/uaRoWPEUTI4
- ozim 4y ago
  Lately I tested if waist bag is much more convenient than pants pockets. It really is. When sitting in car or walking having my phone in it is much more comfortable. Especially with larger phones. Unfortunately for me it is connected to shady people so I have mental block with just wearing it. Other downside is that it would be easier to steal it from me with all stuff in it or from it. Though I usually move in areas where there ar no or not that many pickpockets.
t-3 4y ago
Pockets at all, pockets that aren't fake stitching meant to give the illusion of a pocket, pockets that can actually fit anything in them, no fake zipper flaps, right-handed zippers and buttons... Sorry, I used to work at a dry cleaner.
tgv 4y ago
My guess is that this wasn't about clothing, but an careful attempt at a Women's Lib movement, couched in terms that nobody could reasonably oppose.

atoav 4y ago

Curious, and relevant. Certain fashion choices¹ will just collide with the way bicycles work — be it today or in the past. ¹ back then women certainly didn't have that much choice, or they had but it came with it's own set of consequences

hoseja 4y ago

A well-made corset is a snug, comfortable, supportive garment that doesn't impede movement.

rgoulter 4y ago
Right, Bernadette Banner's video discussing this, explaining why "corset = restrictive" is a myth, is interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rExJskBZcW0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rExJskBZcW0
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  The core of her argument is about actual fainting, permanent organ damage and rib deformation (which are probably myths, I am totally with her). It's a different question from "is it restrictive" though.
- frameset 4y ago
  Thanks for linking this channel. Her costumery is so interesting and elegant.
makeitdouble 4y ago
"well-made" doesn't feel like the correct description TBH. Corsets can be made comfortable and unrestricting, but that was not the primary goal, nor the common use case. And yes, some corsets were made specially for sporty activities for instance. I feel this reaction around corset kinda mimic the "suits can be made as comfortable as pajamas" rethoric. Sure they can, but the primary reason this has to be stated is because that requires tremendous and specialized effort that goes against the primary goal of the garment.
- scrollaway 4y ago
  > I feel this reaction around corset kinda mimic the "suits can be made as comfortable as pajamas" rethoric. Sure they can, but the primary reason this has to be stated is because that requires tremendous and specialized effort that goes against the primary goal of the garment. Oh friend, it doesn’t. Not for men’s suits I mean; I don’t know much about women’s clothing. I am a short but beefy guy, shopping is hell and always has been. I had resigned myself to the idea that if I wanted a comfortable suit, I would have to get it tailor made. I have uncomfortable suits I wore for funerals and what not, hated every minute of it. Turns out, go in the right shop (boss in my case) and I was able to find a comfortable one, with a look I love, for 800 eur. And it is absolutely as comfy as pjs. I’ve never before worn a suit for fun; I am the kind of guy who wears sports clothes most of the time. I did have to get the leggings and sleeves shortened but that doesn’t feel like a “tremendous and specialised effort”, more run of the mill 1m60 man woes.

canistel 4y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channar_revolt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channar_revolt In Kerala, Southern India, which had the wierdest system of caste and associated rules of segregation, women had start with the struggle to clothe their upper body.

nsajko 4y ago
The opposite of "free the nipple"!
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- 4ggr0 4y ago
  "free the nipple" could be understood as "let people freely decide what they want to do with their nipples" :)
  - globular-toast 4y ago
    Are there any societies where individuals decide how to dress rather than broadly following what is acceptable to that society?
    - oh_sigh 4y ago
      Clothing, besides for utilitarian purposes like heat regulation and skin protection, is also about signaling and communicating to others. So I would expect it to be rare to find it divorced from that secondary purpose anywhere.
    - dalbasal 4y ago
      Not entirely, but that's neither here nor there. Rational dress, free the nipple, cover the nipple, victorian style, SV hoodie culture and all these other fashion/dress movements are about deciding/changing what is broadly acceptable to that society, with both "acceptable" and "broadly" on the table. Take both OP's comment rational dress and most reform based or freedom based movements' position to be heavy on the "more broad" side. The victorians/etc. on the "more acceptable" side.

pndy 4y ago

Walking between articles starting from this one, an hour later I'm reading about royal cypher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_cypher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_cypher

AlecSchueler 4y ago

It's kind of scary that this looks so quaint and antiquated but we still live in a time when the dress of women is limited both legally and socially, with restrictions on everything from where they can breastfeed to the number of pockets they can get. The older I get the more egrarious it all feels. It also seems more normalised for younger men to hold explicitly misogynistic viewpoints about these issues.

frogulis 4y ago
> number of pockets they can get Does this come under the "legally" or "socially"?
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  That's a social issue.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  In weird ways, it can be in the "legally" camp... There will be offices where the uniform or dress code is mandated by law, and the number of pockets will be whatever the uniform designer decided it would be. It's not specific to women per se, but there will probably be some differences in the design of both uniforms. Basically that would be the social norms getting burned into legal requirements, until the uniforms are redone.
  - mcv 4y ago
    Uniforms can also be limiting to men. There have been cases during hot summers where uniformed men wanted to wear shorts, but shorts weren't part of the uniform. Women did have the option to choose between trousers and skirts, though, so men started to wear skirts too. Because those were part of the uniform and therefore allowed.
    - AlecSchueler 4y ago
      The also limiting to men thing is a fair point and worth remembering but it's good to keep in mind that both men and women are here being limited by patriarchal social norms. Skirts are seen as less practical and preferable for aesthetics, which makes them feminine and therefore off limits for men who are pressured to be strong and practical.

eimrine 4y ago

It reminds me the Diderot effect which was discussed here a week ago.

fangorn 4y ago

I guess that's the proof things are going backwards in the UK, they've recently gotten rid of no. 1 - "Freedom of Movement": https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/immigration-and-social-security-co-ordination-eu-withdrawal-bill/factsheet-2-end-of-free-movement https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/immigration-and-s...

realjhol 4y ago

There's nothing particularly rational about this. Like so much or modernity, it's just a set of aesthetic preferences dressed up in the mantle of rationalism.

andrepd 4y ago
I dunno, it sounds pretty clear to me. > The Rational Dress Society protests against the introduction of any fashion in dress that either deforms the figure, impedes the movements of the body, or in any way tends to injure the health.
- realjhol 4y ago
  Right- but all of those criteria are highly subjective. And even the question of why these goals are important versus any other concerns is subjective. Dress is form of self expression - intrinsicly so. Rationalism is absurd, and this is a great example of why. Humans almost never do anything on a purely rational basis. Everything we do is directed by subjectivity, emotion, aesthetics etc. - it's better to be honest about this and embrace it, rather than fooling one's self that one's aesthetic preferences are anything more than subjective.
  - dsr_ 4y ago
    You're looking at this from a modern perspective. The Victorian perspective was that the rules of society were the rules of Nature -- or God -- and that conformity to them directly indicated your moral worth.
  - kdmccormick 4y ago
    Read the article.
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    In a word: Corsets. If you don't already know, look at what Victorian corsets actually did to women, and all three points will make sense. They make sense for other reasons as well, but corsets are enough.

r9295 4y ago

Sounds like Bauhaus

scotty79 4y ago

I think we need this today for mens trousers. Some of those are so low that they seriously impede movements and lead to tripping and falling. High heels can also be a serious danger to the wearer. Probably some other things too. I don't really know fashion, but it would be great if people finally after all these years started a movement to evaluate fashion according to rational principles.

frodetb 4y ago

This is a premise I can get behind. One of the silliest battles I have found myself fighting against society has been my search for comfortable yet attractive men's pants. I deeply dislike the restricting fit of modern pants, especially tighter fitting jeans, but also the semi-current fashion in suits and pants in general. It may be that a catalyst for this conflict has been my anatomy. My thighs and butt are huge, compared to other guys of similar proportions, and so apparently they cannot be contained by modern fashions. Every time I try to put on a pair, they're either too loose in the waist, or too tight in the thighs, and always sit too low for my liking, digging into my groin if I force the belt to sit at my waist. And should i find a pair that feels acceptable at first, my optimism only lasts until I have to sit down and feel the edge of these clothes digging uncomfortably into my flesh, rekindling my hatred for these trends and their designers. The current resolution to my woes has been Darcy Clothing's line of suspender pants[1], which I have had tailored after purchase to taper and fit my height. However, this look is quite jarring in a modern environment, so I tend to wear a sweater over the suspenders. Still, I sometimes need to take it off, and wearing something like this day in and out puts quite a label on you. Still to this day I keep my eyes open, hoping that the pants of my desires will appear in a shop somewhere, or that trends will change, and we get style in service of comfort, instead of discomfort in service of style. [1] https://www.darcyclothing.com/collections/mens-trousers https://www.darcyclothing.com/collections/mens-trousers

chlodwig 4y ago
Have you tried the J.Crew 1040 Athletic tapered-fit stretch chino pant? It's designed with a bigger thigh for guys who don't skip leg day -- https://www.jcrew.com/m/mens/categories/clothing/pants-and-chinos/athletic/1040-athletic-tapered-fit-stretch-chino-pant/MP714?display=all&fit=Athletic%20Tapered&color_name=weathered-chino&colorProductCode=AV209 https://www.jcrew.com/m/mens/categories/clothing/pants-and-c...
- flappyeagle 4y ago
  Slim is on its way out. OP might as well wear something aggressively comfortable and forward looking https://www.jcrew.com/p/mens/categories/clothing/pants-and-chinos/chino/giant-fit-chino-pant/BI521 https://www.jcrew.com/p/mens/categories/clothing/pants-and-c...