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> That is what anti consumer looks like. Not SIP. It's not an either-or. Both of those are super anti-consumer. If you want an OS without anti-consumer "featur
by josephcsible 4y ago
> That is what anti consumer looks like. Not SIP.
It's not an either-or. Both of those are super anti-consumer. If you want an OS without anti-consumer "features", then install Linux.
- surgical_fire 4y agoI recently moved back to Linux, perhaps permanently. What kept me from it was not being able to reliably play games, but I can confirm that is no longer a problem. I can't properly describe how happy this makes me.
- pedalpete 4y agoWhat distro did you go for? I'm thinking about moving to linux, I'm avoiding a Windows 11 upgrade, and am not a fan of mac.
- surgical_fire 4y agoMint, because I'm a filthy casual :) I just love Mint, but I think any Debian based distro should work just fine for playing.
- acegopher 4y agoI started with Red Hat 5 bought in a box in 1998 from Microcenter, compiled my own kernel with the original Gentoo, ran XMonad under Arch, and need both hands to count the number of distros I've used as daily drivers. I have settled on Linux Mint. It just works, and looks good. From one "filthy casual" to another...
- surgical_fire 4y agoHaha, good to know that my laziness is not looked down :P I used Ubuntu for a while, but fell in love with Mint. I really like how the interface looks, and how things are organized very intuitively. It feels so unfair to use it for free thay I donated 20 bucks, just to show appreciation. Honestly, easily beats Windows or Mac OS for me.
- agiacalone 4y agoI've used some form of *NIX since 1999, almost exclusively. Began with Red Hat 5. Moved on to Slackware for my server at the time, and Debian for workstations (I also had various MacOS machines as well). Dabbled with Arch for a few years and Manjaro. Recently, I sold all of my Apple equipment and standardized on...Linux Mint. Mint + Cinnamon DE is simply amazing and even with lower specs on the current laptop I'm running (Thinkpad T460S vs. Apple MBP 2019 i9), the difference is stark. Not to mention rock-solid stable. No going back for me.
- stavros 4y agoBasically whatever runs Steam, if you want to play games.
- smcin 4y agoSure, but Steam doesn't run natively, and is very heavy on battery and GPU. So it isn't good for playing on a laptop when mobile; signficantly worse to native game binary running on a tablet or laptop.
- stavros 4y agoIf you're worried about battery life when gaming on the laptop as the decider between Linux and Windows, you should go with Windows. Otherwise, Steam doesn't really emulate anything, it just reimplements Windows API calls, so games run roughly as efficiently as they do on Windows.
- giobox 4y ago> Sure, but Steam doesn't run natively, and is very heavy on battery and GPU. So it isn't good for playing on a laptop when mobile I'm assuming this statement is referring to the large amount of software that is Windows only on Steam and runs in a compatibility layer on Linux, rather than Steam itself. This really isn't that big a deal vs "native" for Steam on Linux and it's getting even less so with time - the Steam Deck mobile console and other x86 handhelds use the exact same Proton tech to run Windows games under Linux on a pretty small ~40Wh battery. Power consumption of the Proton compatibility layer isn't really any better or worse than running native in my experience - its a wash.
- onli 4y agoSteam runs natively. It is a linux application (to my knowledge, and it wraps "a webview", so there might be some nuance here. But native enough for this distinction). Steam uses a compatibility layer called Proton to run Windows games under Linux. Running the games that way is not significantly worse. It can get the same or even better performance (but sure, sometimes worse) and will affect battery life pretty much exactly as if running the game via Windows on the Laptop. Proton is based on Wine, and Wine is not an emulator. Translating the calls does not make them heavier.
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- wrycoder 4y agoIf you like simplicity, Alpine.
- onli 4y agoJust not if gaming is the goal. Steam would be only available as a Flatpak, says https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Steam https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Steam. And the Flatpak version is problematic. Void would be a better choice if liking simplicity. Or to keep it simple, maybe Pop!_OS. Or Debian. Or Arch. Pretty much everything not Alpine ;)
- wrycoder 4y agoI’ve used Alpine, Void, and Debian for years. I certainly would never use Alpine for gaming, any more than I’d use OpenBSD. I don’t use it for multimedia, either. My normal setup is i3 on Alpine. I like to think I have a good understanding of how an Alpine system is built up via its install scripts and maintained by its packaging system. There’s not a lot of cruft lying around that I don’t need and didn’t request. That’s what I intended by using the word “simplicity”. Why would you think that Debian and Void are simpler systems than Alpine? They are much larger.
- onli 4y agoThey are much easier to use for gaming, as you can install Steam without any hurdles. Note how the grandparent comment of your response mentions that being able to game easily now was what made the switch to Linux possible.
- wrycoder 4y agoI’m currently building a rather powerful W10 box solely to run MS Flight Simulator 2020.
- neogodless 4y agoI ran Linux Mint on a Lenovo Legion gaming laptop for 2 months. Almost everything related to gaming worked but I did have problems. Under X11 + Gnome, fractional scaling was pretty badly broken for some things, especially the Steam app. X11 + KDE fixed that issue. Under X11 + KDE with hybrid graphics mode (automatically use APU for light tasks, dedicated GPU for games), the laptop's brightness controls were totally inoperable. I tried to research this but could not find a working solution. If brightness was problematic enough, I could pick one of the fixed graphic modes and log out and back in - mostly I left it near or at 100% and didn't touch it. One game (Anno 1800) would not connect to multiplayer, but works completely under Windows. Hogwart's Legacy ran horribly and was unstable in Linux Mint. It ran with much higher quality/performance and 100% stability under Windows. Other games like ARK, Conan, Valheim, StarCraft 2 (using non-Steam Proton), Deep Rock Galactic all ran identically (from what I can tell) to Windows. Also about 50% of the time, booting would hang for Linux Mint and I'd have to hard-reboot, probably pick an older kernel to boot into, and then I could reboot and go back to the latest kernel (a minor release under Linux 5.15). Fortunately rebooting is mostly infrequent. Overall it wasn't quite in a state I was comfortable with, so I'm back to Windows 10, which is much better than Windows 11 (or much less bad?).
- esperent 4y ago> Hogwart's Legacy ran horribly and was unstable in Linux Mint. It ran with much higher quality/performance and 100% stability under Windows. Do you think this is because it's new? If I could only play games with a year or two delay that would be fine. Cheaper too.
- neogodless 4y agoI can only guess! It's very rare for me to even buy a new game (unless it's a $20 early access game) but my spouse was very excited for it and I wanted to play alongside. (It's not multiplayer but we can still talk about the parts we've played.)
- FridayoLeary 4y agoThe issue with Linux for me is how crude and unpolished the desktop environment is compared to windows and Mac. For the average user the desktop is everything and Linux lag way behind on that. Why are there basically only 2 choices on Linux and both have the same boring font?
- neogodless 4y agoI assume when you say two choices you mean Gnome and KDE? But there are other options like Xfce, and there are quite a few variants, like Cinnamon, MATE, i3, etc. [0] I still think Windows 10 looks and feels relatively polished (if you don't dig too deep and see just how many iterations they've gone through and still haven't gone back to fix.) I think Windows 11 feels a bit goofy - like they are trying for polish now, but it's in that modern overly spaced out and flat look that I can't seem to appreciate. I found Linux Mint Cinnamon to be quite nice, and KDE is really nice in my opinion. More consistent than Windows in some ways. [0] https://alternativeto.net/software/gnome/ https://alternativeto.net/software/gnome/
- surgical_fire 4y agoI much prefer the desktop environment of Mint + Cinnamon over Windows or Mac. Ditto, I am not an average user, but Windows was only really good on Windows 7, and I never really liked Mac OS (use it at work as a MCB is the laptop they issued for me)
- dysoco 4y agoHave you used Linux recently? Windows 11 and Windows 10 with the last updates as well are just awful in terms of UI; the UX works more or less alright, but many of the default applications, and specially the settings, control panel, etc. are just an inconsistent mess, awful flat UI without any kind of colors, etc. Mac is much nicer, nicer fonts, colors, overall look although personally I can't stand the UX too much (specially in terms of window management) apps are usually great tho. I'd very much rather use something like Kubuntu or Pop_OS, Cinnamon works fine as well, honestly nowadays they just work and are usually better off than Windows by default.
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- christophilus 4y ago100% this. My journey was Windows to OSX to Linux. Couldn’t be happier. I just want a good Linux phone to free me from Apple altogether.
- seanmcdirmid 4y agoIsn’t Android Linux?
- charcircuit 4y agoYes, Android is an operating system that uses the Linux kernel.
- steve1977 4y agoSo, it isn't GNU/Linux...
- pxc 4y ago> > good Linux phone to free me from Apple altogether > Isn’t Android Linux? Yes, but it isn't good, especially not in the ways that desktop Linux is good. Reminder: this thread is about avoiding anti-consumer behavior from manufacturers. Android is practically useless for that.
- josephcsible 4y agoIf you get an Android phone that can run something like GrapheneOS or Replicant, then wouldn't it be good?
- kuratkull 4y agoThis seems like where RMS would chime in. Because what we're actually missing on Android are the GNU tools - we have the kernel, but not the userland tools that define the experience.
- fsflover 4y ago
- DonHopkins 4y agoLinux is only free if your time is worthless. ;)
- whateveracct 4y agoWindows and macOS have both wasted plenty of my time over the years too!
- DonHopkins 4y agoThey suck too of course. But they don't presume to be free, like Linux does. There are much more time efficient operating systems than Linux, Windows or macOS. Here's Lars Brinkhoff studying to become a 10x programmer: https://twitter.com/larsbrinkhoff/status/1642569175657771009 https://twitter.com/larsbrinkhoff/status/1642569175657771009
- coffeeblack 4y agoThat was 15 years ago. Today, it's a big time saver compared to Windows.
- jkepler 4y agoFor basic office tasks and browsing the Internet, Debian stable won't waste your time: it should just work.
- nuker 4y agoAdd two HiDPI monitors and you’ll see.
- Rebelgecko 4y agoThat's also a pathological failure case with MacBook (depending on the trim level of MacBook, you'll run into situations like only 1 monitor working. Or both monitors work, but randomly trade position when the computer wakes from sleep)
- imwithstoopid 4y ago
- hedora 4y agoIn fairness, SIP can be disabled. Having said that, Linux is way more appropriate than MacOS for the preschool to highschool crowd. It's bursting with educational resources, and it's relatively easy to set up a locked-down non-administrator account that's appropriate for kiddos (e.g., lots of programming environments and educational games from the 90s; no internet access. If you need cloud backup, you can use cron + rsync).
- josephcsible 4y ago> In fairness, SIP can be disabled. For now. A year ago, I predicted that this will change within 10 years, and I still stand by what I said then: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31067592 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31067592
- Aaron2222 4y agoIf they wanted to remove that option, they would have done it as part of the Apple Silicon transition. Apple might have its issues (App Store, Right to Repair, etc), but they seem quite set on not locking down the Mac.
- goosedragons 4y agoI dunno. Seems like a boiling frog scenario. They keep adding hoops and one day they'll lock it away. There's no reason they had to wait for the start of the AS transition to do it either. Over the Intel era we saw them lock things down with the introduction of the T1 and T2 chips. AS was another small leap. Maybe M4 will introduce something else like software fuses to prevent rollback or something.
- Aaron2222 4y agoT1 was just for Touch ID. T2 did change a lot, but SIP is still as easy to disable as it was before T2. When Apple Silicon came out with a completely different boot process, they still allowed disabling SIP (and added the ability to do it per OS instead of at a global level), and despite the secure boot, they give you the option to turn that off and boot whatever you want (see Asahi Linux). I doubt they would have put the engineering effort into that if their plan was to lock the Mac down.
- Aaron2222 4y agoSo a security feature that doesn't impact normal use and can be turned off if you're so inclined is anti-consumer?
- nuker 4y agoSIP is pro-consumer. Makes it much safer for common users.
- CharlesW 4y ago> Both of those are super anti-consumer. That’s like saying air bags are anti-consumer. Two differences between air bags and SIP: Consumers don’t know SIP exists, and anyone savvy enough to understand the esoteric reasons for needing to disable SIP can do that.
- katbyte 4y agohow is SIP "super anti-consumer"? You can easily turn it off if you want to. AFAIK there are no repercussions if you do even other then your computer being more susceptible to malware.
- Aaron2222 4y agoiOS apps don't work with SIP disabled.
- gjsman-1000 4y agoA. Does anyone actually use iOS on Mac? B. This is actually platform consistency for iOS developers. If you are building an iOS app, you should be fairly comfortable knowing it will be running on a locked-down device, particularly if it’s a social media app with anti-robot technologies. You shouldn’t need to engineer around macOS blowing a hole in that security. If you could run iOS apps on macOS without SIP, what is iOS security good for again?
- melvyn2 4y agoB is clearly anti-consumer. Software running on “my” hardware should be in my control.
- nonbirithm 4y agoAre mainstream Linux distros as user-friendly to a 10-year-old as the other two operating systems, even if the latter are more anti-consumer? As the article states the author was trying to set up a first-time computer for his son. Which flavor of Linux to install is clearly an important factor for such an audience, as it makes distros like Arch out of the question.
- lallysingh 4y agoStock Ubuntu with gnome is effectively an appliance. Annoyingly simplistic.
- no743advice 4y agoYes, at least much moreso than Windows 95 was.