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Having never lived in a Windows world I had no idea what life was like on the other side. So many times on HN I read about how MacOS is bad for the user, locke

Having never lived in a Windows world I had no idea what life was like on the other side. So many times on HN I read about how MacOS is bad for the user, locked down, rubbish etc etc. But if this article is true then Windows 11 is absolutely insane. That is what anti consumer looks like. Not SIP. Not poor documentation. Not first party apps. While those of us who use Apple’s OS fear for the worst, those in Windows appear to be receiving it. (But I definitely agree that news apps have no place on a desktop and I have had very bad news headlines pop up on my kids screens. Please Apple, turn this stupid default off, or give us an option at install time).

josephcsible 4y ago
> That is what anti consumer looks like. Not SIP. It's not an either-or. Both of those are super anti-consumer. If you want an OS without anti-consumer "features", then install Linux.
- surgical_fire 4y ago
  I recently moved back to Linux, perhaps permanently. What kept me from it was not being able to reliably play games, but I can confirm that is no longer a problem. I can't properly describe how happy this makes me.
  - pedalpete 4y ago
    What distro did you go for? I'm thinking about moving to linux, I'm avoiding a Windows 11 upgrade, and am not a fan of mac.
    - surgical_fire 4y ago
      Mint, because I'm a filthy casual :) I just love Mint, but I think any Debian based distro should work just fine for playing.
      - acegopher 4y ago
        I started with Red Hat 5 bought in a box in 1998 from Microcenter, compiled my own kernel with the original Gentoo, ran XMonad under Arch, and need both hands to count the number of distros I've used as daily drivers. I have settled on Linux Mint. It just works, and looks good. From one "filthy casual" to another...
        surgical_fire 4y ago
        Haha, good to know that my laziness is not looked down :P I used Ubuntu for a while, but fell in love with Mint. I really like how the interface looks, and how things are organized very intuitively. It feels so unfair to use it for free thay I donated 20 bucks, just to show appreciation. Honestly, easily beats Windows or Mac OS for me.
      - agiacalone 4y ago
        I've used some form of *NIX since 1999, almost exclusively. Began with Red Hat 5. Moved on to Slackware for my server at the time, and Debian for workstations (I also had various MacOS machines as well). Dabbled with Arch for a few years and Manjaro. Recently, I sold all of my Apple equipment and standardized on...Linux Mint. Mint + Cinnamon DE is simply amazing and even with lower specs on the current laptop I'm running (Thinkpad T460S vs. Apple MBP 2019 i9), the difference is stark. Not to mention rock-solid stable. No going back for me.
    - stavros 4y ago
      Basically whatever runs Steam, if you want to play games.
      - smcin 4y ago
        Sure, but Steam doesn't run natively, and is very heavy on battery and GPU. So it isn't good for playing on a laptop when mobile; signficantly worse to native game binary running on a tablet or laptop.
        stavros 4y ago
        If you're worried about battery life when gaming on the laptop as the decider between Linux and Windows, you should go with Windows. Otherwise, Steam doesn't really emulate anything, it just reimplements Windows API calls, so games run roughly as efficiently as they do on Windows.
        giobox 4y ago
        > Sure, but Steam doesn't run natively, and is very heavy on battery and GPU. So it isn't good for playing on a laptop when mobile I'm assuming this statement is referring to the large amount of software that is Windows only on Steam and runs in a compatibility layer on Linux, rather than Steam itself. This really isn't that big a deal vs "native" for Steam on Linux and it's getting even less so with time - the Steam Deck mobile console and other x86 handhelds use the exact same Proton tech to run Windows games under Linux on a pretty small ~40Wh battery. Power consumption of the Proton compatibility layer isn't really any better or worse than running native in my experience - its a wash.
        onli 4y ago
        Steam runs natively. It is a linux application (to my knowledge, and it wraps "a webview", so there might be some nuance here. But native enough for this distinction). Steam uses a compatibility layer called Proton to run Windows games under Linux. Running the games that way is not significantly worse. It can get the same or even better performance (but sure, sometimes worse) and will affect battery life pretty much exactly as if running the game via Windows on the Laptop. Proton is based on Wine, and Wine is not an emulator. Translating the calls does not make them heavier.
    - deleted 4y ago
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    - wrycoder 4y ago
      If you like simplicity, Alpine.
      - onli 4y ago
        Just not if gaming is the goal. Steam would be only available as a Flatpak, says https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Steam https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Steam. And the Flatpak version is problematic. Void would be a better choice if liking simplicity. Or to keep it simple, maybe Pop!_OS. Or Debian. Or Arch. Pretty much everything not Alpine ;)
        wrycoder 4y ago
        I’ve used Alpine, Void, and Debian for years. I certainly would never use Alpine for gaming, any more than I’d use OpenBSD. I don’t use it for multimedia, either. My normal setup is i3 on Alpine. I like to think I have a good understanding of how an Alpine system is built up via its install scripts and maintained by its packaging system. There’s not a lot of cruft lying around that I don’t need and didn’t request. That’s what I intended by using the word “simplicity”. Why would you think that Debian and Void are simpler systems than Alpine? They are much larger.
        onli 4y ago
        They are much easier to use for gaming, as you can install Steam without any hurdles. Note how the grandparent comment of your response mentions that being able to game easily now was what made the switch to Linux possible.
        wrycoder 4y ago
        I’m currently building a rather powerful W10 box solely to run MS Flight Simulator 2020.
    - neogodless 4y ago
      I ran Linux Mint on a Lenovo Legion gaming laptop for 2 months. Almost everything related to gaming worked but I did have problems. Under X11 + Gnome, fractional scaling was pretty badly broken for some things, especially the Steam app. X11 + KDE fixed that issue. Under X11 + KDE with hybrid graphics mode (automatically use APU for light tasks, dedicated GPU for games), the laptop's brightness controls were totally inoperable. I tried to research this but could not find a working solution. If brightness was problematic enough, I could pick one of the fixed graphic modes and log out and back in - mostly I left it near or at 100% and didn't touch it. One game (Anno 1800) would not connect to multiplayer, but works completely under Windows. Hogwart's Legacy ran horribly and was unstable in Linux Mint. It ran with much higher quality/performance and 100% stability under Windows. Other games like ARK, Conan, Valheim, StarCraft 2 (using non-Steam Proton), Deep Rock Galactic all ran identically (from what I can tell) to Windows. Also about 50% of the time, booting would hang for Linux Mint and I'd have to hard-reboot, probably pick an older kernel to boot into, and then I could reboot and go back to the latest kernel (a minor release under Linux 5.15). Fortunately rebooting is mostly infrequent. Overall it wasn't quite in a state I was comfortable with, so I'm back to Windows 10, which is much better than Windows 11 (or much less bad?).
      - esperent 4y ago
        > Hogwart's Legacy ran horribly and was unstable in Linux Mint. It ran with much higher quality/performance and 100% stability under Windows. Do you think this is because it's new? If I could only play games with a year or two delay that would be fine. Cheaper too.
        neogodless 4y ago
        I can only guess! It's very rare for me to even buy a new game (unless it's a $20 early access game) but my spouse was very excited for it and I wanted to play alongside. (It's not multiplayer but we can still talk about the parts we've played.)
  - FridayoLeary 4y ago
    The issue with Linux for me is how crude and unpolished the desktop environment is compared to windows and Mac. For the average user the desktop is everything and Linux lag way behind on that. Why are there basically only 2 choices on Linux and both have the same boring font?
    - neogodless 4y ago
      I assume when you say two choices you mean Gnome and KDE? But there are other options like Xfce, and there are quite a few variants, like Cinnamon, MATE, i3, etc. [0] I still think Windows 10 looks and feels relatively polished (if you don't dig too deep and see just how many iterations they've gone through and still haven't gone back to fix.) I think Windows 11 feels a bit goofy - like they are trying for polish now, but it's in that modern overly spaced out and flat look that I can't seem to appreciate. I found Linux Mint Cinnamon to be quite nice, and KDE is really nice in my opinion. More consistent than Windows in some ways. [0] https://alternativeto.net/software/gnome/ https://alternativeto.net/software/gnome/
    - surgical_fire 4y ago
      I much prefer the desktop environment of Mint + Cinnamon over Windows or Mac. Ditto, I am not an average user, but Windows was only really good on Windows 7, and I never really liked Mac OS (use it at work as a MCB is the laptop they issued for me)
    - dysoco 4y ago
      Have you used Linux recently? Windows 11 and Windows 10 with the last updates as well are just awful in terms of UI; the UX works more or less alright, but many of the default applications, and specially the settings, control panel, etc. are just an inconsistent mess, awful flat UI without any kind of colors, etc. Mac is much nicer, nicer fonts, colors, overall look although personally I can't stand the UX too much (specially in terms of window management) apps are usually great tho. I'd very much rather use something like Kubuntu or Pop_OS, Cinnamon works fine as well, honestly nowadays they just work and are usually better off than Windows by default.
      - 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
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- christophilus 4y ago
  100% this. My journey was Windows to OSX to Linux. Couldn’t be happier. I just want a good Linux phone to free me from Apple altogether.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    Isn’t Android Linux?
    - charcircuit 4y ago
      Yes, Android is an operating system that uses the Linux kernel.
      - steve1977 4y ago
        So, it isn't GNU/Linux...
    - pxc 4y ago
      > > good Linux phone to free me from Apple altogether > Isn’t Android Linux? Yes, but it isn't good, especially not in the ways that desktop Linux is good. Reminder: this thread is about avoiding anti-consumer behavior from manufacturers. Android is practically useless for that.
      - josephcsible 4y ago
        If you get an Android phone that can run something like GrapheneOS or Replicant, then wouldn't it be good?
      - kuratkull 4y ago
        This seems like where RMS would chime in. Because what we're actually missing on Android are the GNU tools - we have the kernel, but not the userland tools that define the experience.
        fsflover 4y ago
- DonHopkins 4y ago
  Linux is only free if your time is worthless. ;)
  - whateveracct 4y ago
    Windows and macOS have both wasted plenty of my time over the years too!
    - DonHopkins 4y ago
      They suck too of course. But they don't presume to be free, like Linux does. There are much more time efficient operating systems than Linux, Windows or macOS. Here's Lars Brinkhoff studying to become a 10x programmer: https://twitter.com/larsbrinkhoff/status/1642569175657771009 https://twitter.com/larsbrinkhoff/status/1642569175657771009
  - coffeeblack 4y ago
    That was 15 years ago. Today, it's a big time saver compared to Windows.
  - jkepler 4y ago
    For basic office tasks and browsing the Internet, Debian stable won't waste your time: it should just work.
    - nuker 4y ago
      Add two HiDPI monitors and you’ll see.
      - Rebelgecko 4y ago
        That's also a pathological failure case with MacBook (depending on the trim level of MacBook, you'll run into situations like only 1 monitor working. Or both monitors work, but randomly trade position when the computer wakes from sleep)
  - imwithstoopid 4y ago
- hedora 4y ago
  In fairness, SIP can be disabled. Having said that, Linux is way more appropriate than MacOS for the preschool to highschool crowd. It's bursting with educational resources, and it's relatively easy to set up a locked-down non-administrator account that's appropriate for kiddos (e.g., lots of programming environments and educational games from the 90s; no internet access. If you need cloud backup, you can use cron + rsync).
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    > In fairness, SIP can be disabled. For now. A year ago, I predicted that this will change within 10 years, and I still stand by what I said then: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31067592 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31067592
    - Aaron2222 4y ago
      If they wanted to remove that option, they would have done it as part of the Apple Silicon transition. Apple might have its issues (App Store, Right to Repair, etc), but they seem quite set on not locking down the Mac.
      - goosedragons 4y ago
        I dunno. Seems like a boiling frog scenario. They keep adding hoops and one day they'll lock it away. There's no reason they had to wait for the start of the AS transition to do it either. Over the Intel era we saw them lock things down with the introduction of the T1 and T2 chips. AS was another small leap. Maybe M4 will introduce something else like software fuses to prevent rollback or something.
        Aaron2222 4y ago
        T1 was just for Touch ID. T2 did change a lot, but SIP is still as easy to disable as it was before T2. When Apple Silicon came out with a completely different boot process, they still allowed disabling SIP (and added the ability to do it per OS instead of at a global level), and despite the secure boot, they give you the option to turn that off and boot whatever you want (see Asahi Linux). I doubt they would have put the engineering effort into that if their plan was to lock the Mac down.
- Aaron2222 4y ago
  So a security feature that doesn't impact normal use and can be turned off if you're so inclined is anti-consumer?
- nuker 4y ago
  SIP is pro-consumer. Makes it much safer for common users.
- CharlesW 4y ago
  > Both of those are super anti-consumer. That’s like saying air bags are anti-consumer. Two differences between air bags and SIP: Consumers don’t know SIP exists, and anyone savvy enough to understand the esoteric reasons for needing to disable SIP can do that.
  - fsflover 4y ago
    This is a false dichotomy. Security in software can be achieved without destroying user rights.
    - CharlesW 4y ago
      How is SIP not a stellar example of how to achieve security in software without destroying user rights?
- katbyte 4y ago
  how is SIP "super anti-consumer"? You can easily turn it off if you want to. AFAIK there are no repercussions if you do even other then your computer being more susceptible to malware.
  - Aaron2222 4y ago
    iOS apps don't work with SIP disabled.
    - gjsman-1000 4y ago
      A. Does anyone actually use iOS on Mac? B. This is actually platform consistency for iOS developers. If you are building an iOS app, you should be fairly comfortable knowing it will be running on a locked-down device, particularly if it’s a social media app with anti-robot technologies. You shouldn’t need to engineer around macOS blowing a hole in that security. If you could run iOS apps on macOS without SIP, what is iOS security good for again?
      - melvyn2 4y ago
        B is clearly anti-consumer. Software running on “my” hardware should be in my control.
- nonbirithm 4y ago
  Are mainstream Linux distros as user-friendly to a 10-year-old as the other two operating systems, even if the latter are more anti-consumer? As the article states the author was trying to set up a first-time computer for his son. Which flavor of Linux to install is clearly an important factor for such an audience, as it makes distros like Arch out of the question.
  - lallysingh 4y ago
    Stock Ubuntu with gnome is effectively an appliance. Annoyingly simplistic.
  - no743advice 4y ago
    Yes, at least much moreso than Windows 95 was.
treve 4y ago
I built a gaming PC recently, so also new to Windows (normally Linux main). I was very surprised to see advertising in the operating system, for an operating system that people pay at least $190 CAD for. This issue is made worse by every hardware vendor needing to install their own bulky applications with their own popups. It's extremely noisy. My main take is that Microsoft has lost all pride in Windows and they're uninterested in actually competing.
- hedora 4y ago
  Try installing Linux + steam on it. I think you'll find it's a better environment for gaming.
  - nightfly 4y ago
    For _some_ games and hardware combinations it's great. Some games are still windows only, and for some games the performance on Linux is abysmal, even with Proton.
  - judge2020 4y ago
    This is irrelevant for multiplayer gaming, where the anti-cheat software only runs on Windows because it needs to establish a security baseline for all players.
    - hparadiz 4y ago
      Easy anti cheat works in linux now. Most games now just work
      - charcircuit 4y ago
        EAC has worked on Linux for like a decade. That doesn't mean that those games will let you play on Linux.
        hparadiz 4y ago
pedalpete 4y ago
This is unfortunately the new state of Windows, and why I also may be switching away after being a dedicated user since Windows 3.1 I doubt I'll go to Mac, I'm just not a fan, so looking at different linux options, even though I barely do any coding anymore. Windows used to have bloatware and shareware, but I never felt it was in your face like it is now. But it really is the volume of advertising and crap that has gone into Windows 11 which is why I've stayed on 10 and am avoiding upgrading.
- FpUser 4y ago
  I use both Linux and Windows. Windows Pro 11 on desktop and Linux on desktop and servers. I removed ads from "Search" using settings and see no other ads. Am I special or it is related to Pro vs Home?
  - dev_daftly 4y ago
    Everybody on here like to think they are amazing power users but can't disable a single setting, that I'm pretty sure is part of the standard setup process, to get rid of ads. I've used a number of Windows 10/11 pc's and never seen any of the issues hn complains about regularly.
- nuker 4y ago
  > stayed on 10 and am avoiding upgrading It still tries to move you to 11, big You Have Free Upgrade window on startup. I declined maybe 4 times already. It still shows. Im totally a MacOS fan, i use Linux daily but only for my servers. Windows in on my gaming PC.
  - chillfox 4y ago
    It’s hoping to catch you off guard one day so you miss click or wear you down.
    - 1attice 4y ago
      This happened to me ;_;
nashashmi 4y ago
That was life when vendors would pre install all sorts of crap. Then you would do a fresh install of windows and lose all of those stuff. (Tears!) Now this comes by default with windows. I think Microsoft too is feeling the blandness of its product without vendor crapware.
- hakfoo 4y ago
  There was a time when Microsoft themselves realized the crapware experience sucked. Back in the Windows 8 days, Microsoft had a few physical mall shops trying to capture some of the Apple Store magic. One of their selling points was "Signature PCs"-- guaranteed to have nothing on there but Windows and drivers, no vendor bloat. Strange they don't recognize the spam when it's coming from inside the ~~house~~ multinational.
  - nashashmi 4y ago
    Some people just can’t tolerate blank canvases. They want everything multi colored.
muyuu 4y ago
both in MacOS and in Windows you are mere cattle there is no reason to keep using a walled, closed desktop OS in the 2020s
- uw_rob 4y ago
  For better and worse everything productive is becoming OS agnostic. In 15 years I don't think many first-class applications will be truly native. They will be UI via HTML (webapps, electron, etc), CLIs based on POSIX, or company maintained UI frameworks which break OS styling conventions (JetBrains, etc). OS agnosticism isn't just webapps taking over. Docker is making development from the ground up be OS agnostic. I see this in my personal life as well. Every day I use MacOS, Linux, and Windows -- OS doesn't really matter much anymore to me.
  - steve1977 4y ago
    > Docker is making development from the ground up be OS agnostic. Docker is not really OS agnostic, on macOS or Windows it involves some kind of Linux VM.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  The weird revelation to me was that the goal of what a decent OS is keeps moving, even as what we want to do doesn't change much in nature. 20 years ago I was on FreeBSD and it was fine. But as laptops became mainstream, and even the main linux distros were completely impractical. Now we have really good linux laptops, but tablet form computers are maturing and we're starting to see very good ones, and linux support is still generations behind (heck, windows support is still meh) I'd expect linux to be viable there in 4 or 5 years, when the dust settles, but then will the compatibility extend to the machines on the better form factors of that time ? Basically "the year of linux on the desktop" meme has stopped being about sheer viability and more about what you're willing to give up to keep using linux. As long as it doesn't become the primary target of the more innovative hardware makers out there, I wouldn't expect to solve this situation anytime soon. The frame laptop is a move in that direction.
bee_rider 4y ago
Windows is weird, from a Linux or MacOS point of view. It is always broken, but also poorly written, so the user can just make a workflow happen by accumulating kludges. I think Microsoft might have hired too many people who were familiar with other operating systems, resulting in a Windows 11 that actually manages to implement their vision.
- PrimeMcFly 4y ago
  It's not poorly written or broken, at least it wasn't for most of it's history. Windows does an awful lot of stuff very well, something MacOS and Linux are not even close to, e.g. backwards compatibility. You can still run a Windows 95 app on 11 and it will run pretty much perfectly. There were some very smart people working for MS who helped design the NT architecture. It's just the last few versions have really gone to shit. I saw a link to some comment on HN where someone on the Windows team was posting about how all the Apple users got hired and kept trying to make 11 like MacOS, and the seasoned Windows people were losing fights and just quitting. That explains a lot.
deleted 4y ago
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Beached 4y ago
as a general windows fan, I also hate windows 11. I upgraded my 11 to windows 10, and if windows 12 doesn't resolve this horrible apple/android copy cat nonsense, I will regrettably move to Linux full time. I run kde on hardware for my work computer as the only os on the device for over 2 years now. I still use windows 10 at home for personal computing. kde based Debian is good, better than osx and windows 11 for sure, but I just can't swallow it as my only os for entertainment, it just isn't there yet.
- mostlysimilar 4y ago
  Which part is Apple copycat? Seems like they're wrecking it plenty by themselves without needing to take cues from macOS.
  - aksss 4y ago
    I guess centering everything on the taskbar? I mean, one can (and I do) set it back to left alignment, but that’s probably what’s being referred to.
    - steve1977 4y ago
      That probably has simple practical reasons, as more and more screens are wide today.
Zurrrrr 4y ago
The thing is, those claims about MacOS have been true for some time, while Windows becoming this bad is a relatively recent thing. 10 was the start, and 11 was a huge escalation.
- Narishma 4y ago
  It already started with 8.
jmspring 4y ago
I ran windows 1.0 back in the day through 11 (arm) in a VM now. I ran OS/2 at a prior employer years back so I could do builds for Windows 16 as well as do other work. Windows is a tool. I have run laptops using Windows to FreeBSD. I run MacOS as a choice because Linux sucks for dealing with multiple environments and printers and the things that make a "desktop OS" useful. Windows 10 / 11 let marketing be stupid and added things like Candy Crush, etc. I'm not a fan and wish they had done different. There are things to "like" about windows - backward compatibility being one that has been pretty amazing.
makeitdouble 4y ago
Rediscovered Windows on a new Surface recently (so the pure Microsoft experience...), and yes it's pretty bad out of the box. Not just the ads, but the presets and aren't great either, so you're expected to take a bunch of time to make it sane first. The general advice I got was to start with a debloating program [0], especially for people new to the platform. My take is, Windows 11's lows are really low. Having to debloat is one thing, the overall mild bugginess is another (everything kinda only works 99% of the time, that 1% of FU doesn't seem to disappear). Then the arcane science of digging through old layers to resurect past UIs that are still more powerful than the newer ones. On the other side the highs are way way higher. People stick with all the crap because that's the only path to where they want to go. [0] https://github.com/builtbybel/BloatyNosy https://github.com/builtbybel/BloatyNosy
xiphias2 4y ago
It's not because they were lying, but Windows was changed delibaretly in the wrong direction, and MacOS got much more usable because of open source contributions. I miss the consistency that I had with Windows 7 (renaming a file anywhere with the F2 key), but those days are over. With Mac I still don't know what the Mac / option / control / fn / shift keys mean and can't remember keyboard shortcuts, so I'm much more dependent on the touchpad, but at least the touchpad is awesome.
BrotherBisquick 4y ago
What is 'SIP' in this context?

josephcsible 4y ago

> That is what anti consumer looks like. Not SIP. It's not an either-or. Both of those are super anti-consumer. If you want an OS without anti-consumer "features", then install Linux.

surgical_fire 4y ago
I recently moved back to Linux, perhaps permanently. What kept me from it was not being able to reliably play games, but I can confirm that is no longer a problem. I can't properly describe how happy this makes me.
- pedalpete 4y ago
  What distro did you go for? I'm thinking about moving to linux, I'm avoiding a Windows 11 upgrade, and am not a fan of mac.
  - surgical_fire 4y ago
    Mint, because I'm a filthy casual :) I just love Mint, but I think any Debian based distro should work just fine for playing.
    - acegopher 4y ago
      I started with Red Hat 5 bought in a box in 1998 from Microcenter, compiled my own kernel with the original Gentoo, ran XMonad under Arch, and need both hands to count the number of distros I've used as daily drivers. I have settled on Linux Mint. It just works, and looks good. From one "filthy casual" to another...
      - surgical_fire 4y ago
        Haha, good to know that my laziness is not looked down :P I used Ubuntu for a while, but fell in love with Mint. I really like how the interface looks, and how things are organized very intuitively. It feels so unfair to use it for free thay I donated 20 bucks, just to show appreciation. Honestly, easily beats Windows or Mac OS for me.
    - agiacalone 4y ago
      I've used some form of *NIX since 1999, almost exclusively. Began with Red Hat 5. Moved on to Slackware for my server at the time, and Debian for workstations (I also had various MacOS machines as well). Dabbled with Arch for a few years and Manjaro. Recently, I sold all of my Apple equipment and standardized on...Linux Mint. Mint + Cinnamon DE is simply amazing and even with lower specs on the current laptop I'm running (Thinkpad T460S vs. Apple MBP 2019 i9), the difference is stark. Not to mention rock-solid stable. No going back for me.
  - stavros 4y ago
    Basically whatever runs Steam, if you want to play games.
    - smcin 4y ago
      Sure, but Steam doesn't run natively, and is very heavy on battery and GPU. So it isn't good for playing on a laptop when mobile; signficantly worse to native game binary running on a tablet or laptop.
      - stavros 4y ago
        If you're worried about battery life when gaming on the laptop as the decider between Linux and Windows, you should go with Windows. Otherwise, Steam doesn't really emulate anything, it just reimplements Windows API calls, so games run roughly as efficiently as they do on Windows.
      - giobox 4y ago
        > Sure, but Steam doesn't run natively, and is very heavy on battery and GPU. So it isn't good for playing on a laptop when mobile I'm assuming this statement is referring to the large amount of software that is Windows only on Steam and runs in a compatibility layer on Linux, rather than Steam itself. This really isn't that big a deal vs "native" for Steam on Linux and it's getting even less so with time - the Steam Deck mobile console and other x86 handhelds use the exact same Proton tech to run Windows games under Linux on a pretty small ~40Wh battery. Power consumption of the Proton compatibility layer isn't really any better or worse than running native in my experience - its a wash.
      - onli 4y ago
        Steam runs natively. It is a linux application (to my knowledge, and it wraps "a webview", so there might be some nuance here. But native enough for this distinction). Steam uses a compatibility layer called Proton to run Windows games under Linux. Running the games that way is not significantly worse. It can get the same or even better performance (but sure, sometimes worse) and will affect battery life pretty much exactly as if running the game via Windows on the Laptop. Proton is based on Wine, and Wine is not an emulator. Translating the calls does not make them heavier.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - wrycoder 4y ago
    If you like simplicity, Alpine.
    - onli 4y ago
      Just not if gaming is the goal. Steam would be only available as a Flatpak, says https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Steam https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Steam. And the Flatpak version is problematic. Void would be a better choice if liking simplicity. Or to keep it simple, maybe Pop!_OS. Or Debian. Or Arch. Pretty much everything not Alpine ;)
      - wrycoder 4y ago
        I’ve used Alpine, Void, and Debian for years. I certainly would never use Alpine for gaming, any more than I’d use OpenBSD. I don’t use it for multimedia, either. My normal setup is i3 on Alpine. I like to think I have a good understanding of how an Alpine system is built up via its install scripts and maintained by its packaging system. There’s not a lot of cruft lying around that I don’t need and didn’t request. That’s what I intended by using the word “simplicity”. Why would you think that Debian and Void are simpler systems than Alpine? They are much larger.
        onli 4y ago
        They are much easier to use for gaming, as you can install Steam without any hurdles. Note how the grandparent comment of your response mentions that being able to game easily now was what made the switch to Linux possible.
        wrycoder 4y ago
        I’m currently building a rather powerful W10 box solely to run MS Flight Simulator 2020.
  - neogodless 4y ago
    I ran Linux Mint on a Lenovo Legion gaming laptop for 2 months. Almost everything related to gaming worked but I did have problems. Under X11 + Gnome, fractional scaling was pretty badly broken for some things, especially the Steam app. X11 + KDE fixed that issue. Under X11 + KDE with hybrid graphics mode (automatically use APU for light tasks, dedicated GPU for games), the laptop's brightness controls were totally inoperable. I tried to research this but could not find a working solution. If brightness was problematic enough, I could pick one of the fixed graphic modes and log out and back in - mostly I left it near or at 100% and didn't touch it. One game (Anno 1800) would not connect to multiplayer, but works completely under Windows. Hogwart's Legacy ran horribly and was unstable in Linux Mint. It ran with much higher quality/performance and 100% stability under Windows. Other games like ARK, Conan, Valheim, StarCraft 2 (using non-Steam Proton), Deep Rock Galactic all ran identically (from what I can tell) to Windows. Also about 50% of the time, booting would hang for Linux Mint and I'd have to hard-reboot, probably pick an older kernel to boot into, and then I could reboot and go back to the latest kernel (a minor release under Linux 5.15). Fortunately rebooting is mostly infrequent. Overall it wasn't quite in a state I was comfortable with, so I'm back to Windows 10, which is much better than Windows 11 (or much less bad?).
    - esperent 4y ago
      > Hogwart's Legacy ran horribly and was unstable in Linux Mint. It ran with much higher quality/performance and 100% stability under Windows. Do you think this is because it's new? If I could only play games with a year or two delay that would be fine. Cheaper too.
      - neogodless 4y ago
        I can only guess! It's very rare for me to even buy a new game (unless it's a $20 early access game) but my spouse was very excited for it and I wanted to play alongside. (It's not multiplayer but we can still talk about the parts we've played.)
- FridayoLeary 4y ago
  The issue with Linux for me is how crude and unpolished the desktop environment is compared to windows and Mac. For the average user the desktop is everything and Linux lag way behind on that. Why are there basically only 2 choices on Linux and both have the same boring font?
  - neogodless 4y ago
    I assume when you say two choices you mean Gnome and KDE? But there are other options like Xfce, and there are quite a few variants, like Cinnamon, MATE, i3, etc. [0] I still think Windows 10 looks and feels relatively polished (if you don't dig too deep and see just how many iterations they've gone through and still haven't gone back to fix.) I think Windows 11 feels a bit goofy - like they are trying for polish now, but it's in that modern overly spaced out and flat look that I can't seem to appreciate. I found Linux Mint Cinnamon to be quite nice, and KDE is really nice in my opinion. More consistent than Windows in some ways. [0] https://alternativeto.net/software/gnome/ https://alternativeto.net/software/gnome/
  - surgical_fire 4y ago
    I much prefer the desktop environment of Mint + Cinnamon over Windows or Mac. Ditto, I am not an average user, but Windows was only really good on Windows 7, and I never really liked Mac OS (use it at work as a MCB is the laptop they issued for me)
  - dysoco 4y ago
    Have you used Linux recently? Windows 11 and Windows 10 with the last updates as well are just awful in terms of UI; the UX works more or less alright, but many of the default applications, and specially the settings, control panel, etc. are just an inconsistent mess, awful flat UI without any kind of colors, etc. Mac is much nicer, nicer fonts, colors, overall look although personally I can't stand the UX too much (specially in terms of window management) apps are usually great tho. I'd very much rather use something like Kubuntu or Pop_OS, Cinnamon works fine as well, honestly nowadays they just work and are usually better off than Windows by default.
    - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
christophilus 4y ago
100% this. My journey was Windows to OSX to Linux. Couldn’t be happier. I just want a good Linux phone to free me from Apple altogether.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  Isn’t Android Linux?
  - charcircuit 4y ago
    Yes, Android is an operating system that uses the Linux kernel.
    - steve1977 4y ago
      So, it isn't GNU/Linux...
  - pxc 4y ago
    > > good Linux phone to free me from Apple altogether > Isn’t Android Linux? Yes, but it isn't good, especially not in the ways that desktop Linux is good. Reminder: this thread is about avoiding anti-consumer behavior from manufacturers. Android is practically useless for that.
    - josephcsible 4y ago
      If you get an Android phone that can run something like GrapheneOS or Replicant, then wouldn't it be good?
    - kuratkull 4y ago
      This seems like where RMS would chime in. Because what we're actually missing on Android are the GNU tools - we have the kernel, but not the userland tools that define the experience.
      - fsflover 4y ago
DonHopkins 4y ago
Linux is only free if your time is worthless. ;)
- whateveracct 4y ago
  Windows and macOS have both wasted plenty of my time over the years too!
  - DonHopkins 4y ago
    They suck too of course. But they don't presume to be free, like Linux does. There are much more time efficient operating systems than Linux, Windows or macOS. Here's Lars Brinkhoff studying to become a 10x programmer: https://twitter.com/larsbrinkhoff/status/1642569175657771009 https://twitter.com/larsbrinkhoff/status/1642569175657771009
- coffeeblack 4y ago
  That was 15 years ago. Today, it's a big time saver compared to Windows.
- jkepler 4y ago
  For basic office tasks and browsing the Internet, Debian stable won't waste your time: it should just work.
  - nuker 4y ago
    Add two HiDPI monitors and you’ll see.
    - Rebelgecko 4y ago
      That's also a pathological failure case with MacBook (depending on the trim level of MacBook, you'll run into situations like only 1 monitor working. Or both monitors work, but randomly trade position when the computer wakes from sleep)
- imwithstoopid 4y ago
hedora 4y ago
In fairness, SIP can be disabled. Having said that, Linux is way more appropriate than MacOS for the preschool to highschool crowd. It's bursting with educational resources, and it's relatively easy to set up a locked-down non-administrator account that's appropriate for kiddos (e.g., lots of programming environments and educational games from the 90s; no internet access. If you need cloud backup, you can use cron + rsync).
- josephcsible 4y ago
  > In fairness, SIP can be disabled. For now. A year ago, I predicted that this will change within 10 years, and I still stand by what I said then: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31067592 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31067592
  - Aaron2222 4y ago
    If they wanted to remove that option, they would have done it as part of the Apple Silicon transition. Apple might have its issues (App Store, Right to Repair, etc), but they seem quite set on not locking down the Mac.
    - goosedragons 4y ago
      I dunno. Seems like a boiling frog scenario. They keep adding hoops and one day they'll lock it away. There's no reason they had to wait for the start of the AS transition to do it either. Over the Intel era we saw them lock things down with the introduction of the T1 and T2 chips. AS was another small leap. Maybe M4 will introduce something else like software fuses to prevent rollback or something.
      - Aaron2222 4y ago
        T1 was just for Touch ID. T2 did change a lot, but SIP is still as easy to disable as it was before T2. When Apple Silicon came out with a completely different boot process, they still allowed disabling SIP (and added the ability to do it per OS instead of at a global level), and despite the secure boot, they give you the option to turn that off and boot whatever you want (see Asahi Linux). I doubt they would have put the engineering effort into that if their plan was to lock the Mac down.
Aaron2222 4y ago
So a security feature that doesn't impact normal use and can be turned off if you're so inclined is anti-consumer?
nuker 4y ago
SIP is pro-consumer. Makes it much safer for common users.
CharlesW 4y ago
> Both of those are super anti-consumer. That’s like saying air bags are anti-consumer. Two differences between air bags and SIP: Consumers don’t know SIP exists, and anyone savvy enough to understand the esoteric reasons for needing to disable SIP can do that.
- fsflover 4y ago
  This is a false dichotomy. Security in software can be achieved without destroying user rights.
  - CharlesW 4y ago
    How is SIP not a stellar example of how to achieve security in software without destroying user rights?
katbyte 4y ago
how is SIP "super anti-consumer"? You can easily turn it off if you want to. AFAIK there are no repercussions if you do even other then your computer being more susceptible to malware.
- Aaron2222 4y ago
  iOS apps don't work with SIP disabled.
  - gjsman-1000 4y ago
    A. Does anyone actually use iOS on Mac? B. This is actually platform consistency for iOS developers. If you are building an iOS app, you should be fairly comfortable knowing it will be running on a locked-down device, particularly if it’s a social media app with anti-robot technologies. You shouldn’t need to engineer around macOS blowing a hole in that security. If you could run iOS apps on macOS without SIP, what is iOS security good for again?
    - melvyn2 4y ago
      B is clearly anti-consumer. Software running on “my” hardware should be in my control.
nonbirithm 4y ago
Are mainstream Linux distros as user-friendly to a 10-year-old as the other two operating systems, even if the latter are more anti-consumer? As the article states the author was trying to set up a first-time computer for his son. Which flavor of Linux to install is clearly an important factor for such an audience, as it makes distros like Arch out of the question.
- lallysingh 4y ago
  Stock Ubuntu with gnome is effectively an appliance. Annoyingly simplistic.
- no743advice 4y ago
  Yes, at least much moreso than Windows 95 was.

treve 4y ago

I built a gaming PC recently, so also new to Windows (normally Linux main). I was very surprised to see advertising in the operating system, for an operating system that people pay at least $190 CAD for. This issue is made worse by every hardware vendor needing to install their own bulky applications with their own popups. It's extremely noisy. My main take is that Microsoft has lost all pride in Windows and they're uninterested in actually competing.

hedora 4y ago
Try installing Linux + steam on it. I think you'll find it's a better environment for gaming.
- nightfly 4y ago
  For _some_ games and hardware combinations it's great. Some games are still windows only, and for some games the performance on Linux is abysmal, even with Proton.
- judge2020 4y ago
  This is irrelevant for multiplayer gaming, where the anti-cheat software only runs on Windows because it needs to establish a security baseline for all players.
  - hparadiz 4y ago
    Easy anti cheat works in linux now. Most games now just work
    - charcircuit 4y ago
      EAC has worked on Linux for like a decade. That doesn't mean that those games will let you play on Linux.
      - hparadiz 4y ago

pedalpete 4y ago

This is unfortunately the new state of Windows, and why I also may be switching away after being a dedicated user since Windows 3.1 I doubt I'll go to Mac, I'm just not a fan, so looking at different linux options, even though I barely do any coding anymore. Windows used to have bloatware and shareware, but I never felt it was in your face like it is now. But it really is the volume of advertising and crap that has gone into Windows 11 which is why I've stayed on 10 and am avoiding upgrading.

FpUser 4y ago
I use both Linux and Windows. Windows Pro 11 on desktop and Linux on desktop and servers. I removed ads from "Search" using settings and see no other ads. Am I special or it is related to Pro vs Home?
- dev_daftly 4y ago
  Everybody on here like to think they are amazing power users but can't disable a single setting, that I'm pretty sure is part of the standard setup process, to get rid of ads. I've used a number of Windows 10/11 pc's and never seen any of the issues hn complains about regularly.
nuker 4y ago
> stayed on 10 and am avoiding upgrading It still tries to move you to 11, big You Have Free Upgrade window on startup. I declined maybe 4 times already. It still shows. Im totally a MacOS fan, i use Linux daily but only for my servers. Windows in on my gaming PC.
- chillfox 4y ago
  It’s hoping to catch you off guard one day so you miss click or wear you down.
  - 1attice 4y ago
    This happened to me ;_;

nashashmi 4y ago

That was life when vendors would pre install all sorts of crap. Then you would do a fresh install of windows and lose all of those stuff. (Tears!) Now this comes by default with windows. I think Microsoft too is feeling the blandness of its product without vendor crapware.

hakfoo 4y ago
There was a time when Microsoft themselves realized the crapware experience sucked. Back in the Windows 8 days, Microsoft had a few physical mall shops trying to capture some of the Apple Store magic. One of their selling points was "Signature PCs"-- guaranteed to have nothing on there but Windows and drivers, no vendor bloat. Strange they don't recognize the spam when it's coming from inside the ~~house~~ multinational.
- nashashmi 4y ago
  Some people just can’t tolerate blank canvases. They want everything multi colored.

muyuu 4y ago

both in MacOS and in Windows you are mere cattle there is no reason to keep using a walled, closed desktop OS in the 2020s

uw_rob 4y ago
For better and worse everything productive is becoming OS agnostic. In 15 years I don't think many first-class applications will be truly native. They will be UI via HTML (webapps, electron, etc), CLIs based on POSIX, or company maintained UI frameworks which break OS styling conventions (JetBrains, etc). OS agnosticism isn't just webapps taking over. Docker is making development from the ground up be OS agnostic. I see this in my personal life as well. Every day I use MacOS, Linux, and Windows -- OS doesn't really matter much anymore to me.
- steve1977 4y ago
  > Docker is making development from the ground up be OS agnostic. Docker is not really OS agnostic, on macOS or Windows it involves some kind of Linux VM.
makeitdouble 4y ago
The weird revelation to me was that the goal of what a decent OS is keeps moving, even as what we want to do doesn't change much in nature. 20 years ago I was on FreeBSD and it was fine. But as laptops became mainstream, and even the main linux distros were completely impractical. Now we have really good linux laptops, but tablet form computers are maturing and we're starting to see very good ones, and linux support is still generations behind (heck, windows support is still meh) I'd expect linux to be viable there in 4 or 5 years, when the dust settles, but then will the compatibility extend to the machines on the better form factors of that time ? Basically "the year of linux on the desktop" meme has stopped being about sheer viability and more about what you're willing to give up to keep using linux. As long as it doesn't become the primary target of the more innovative hardware makers out there, I wouldn't expect to solve this situation anytime soon. The frame laptop is a move in that direction.

bee_rider 4y ago

Windows is weird, from a Linux or MacOS point of view. It is always broken, but also poorly written, so the user can just make a workflow happen by accumulating kludges. I think Microsoft might have hired too many people who were familiar with other operating systems, resulting in a Windows 11 that actually manages to implement their vision.

PrimeMcFly 4y ago
It's not poorly written or broken, at least it wasn't for most of it's history. Windows does an awful lot of stuff very well, something MacOS and Linux are not even close to, e.g. backwards compatibility. You can still run a Windows 95 app on 11 and it will run pretty much perfectly. There were some very smart people working for MS who helped design the NT architecture. It's just the last few versions have really gone to shit. I saw a link to some comment on HN where someone on the Windows team was posting about how all the Apple users got hired and kept trying to make 11 like MacOS, and the seasoned Windows people were losing fights and just quitting. That explains a lot.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Beached 4y ago

as a general windows fan, I also hate windows 11. I upgraded my 11 to windows 10, and if windows 12 doesn't resolve this horrible apple/android copy cat nonsense, I will regrettably move to Linux full time. I run kde on hardware for my work computer as the only os on the device for over 2 years now. I still use windows 10 at home for personal computing. kde based Debian is good, better than osx and windows 11 for sure, but I just can't swallow it as my only os for entertainment, it just isn't there yet.

mostlysimilar 4y ago
Which part is Apple copycat? Seems like they're wrecking it plenty by themselves without needing to take cues from macOS.
- aksss 4y ago
  I guess centering everything on the taskbar? I mean, one can (and I do) set it back to left alignment, but that’s probably what’s being referred to.
  - steve1977 4y ago
    That probably has simple practical reasons, as more and more screens are wide today.

Zurrrrr 4y ago

The thing is, those claims about MacOS have been true for some time, while Windows becoming this bad is a relatively recent thing. 10 was the start, and 11 was a huge escalation.

Narishma 4y ago
It already started with 8.

jmspring 4y ago

I ran windows 1.0 back in the day through 11 (arm) in a VM now. I ran OS/2 at a prior employer years back so I could do builds for Windows 16 as well as do other work. Windows is a tool. I have run laptops using Windows to FreeBSD. I run MacOS as a choice because Linux sucks for dealing with multiple environments and printers and the things that make a "desktop OS" useful. Windows 10 / 11 let marketing be stupid and added things like Candy Crush, etc. I'm not a fan and wish they had done different. There are things to "like" about windows - backward compatibility being one that has been pretty amazing.

makeitdouble 4y ago

Rediscovered Windows on a new Surface recently (so the pure Microsoft experience...), and yes it's pretty bad out of the box. Not just the ads, but the presets and aren't great either, so you're expected to take a bunch of time to make it sane first. The general advice I got was to start with a debloating program [0], especially for people new to the platform. My take is, Windows 11's lows are really low. Having to debloat is one thing, the overall mild bugginess is another (everything kinda only works 99% of the time, that 1% of FU doesn't seem to disappear). Then the arcane science of digging through old layers to resurect past UIs that are still more powerful than the newer ones. On the other side the highs are way way higher. People stick with all the crap because that's the only path to where they want to go. [0] https://github.com/builtbybel/BloatyNosy https://github.com/builtbybel/BloatyNosy

xiphias2 4y ago

It's not because they were lying, but Windows was changed delibaretly in the wrong direction, and MacOS got much more usable because of open source contributions. I miss the consistency that I had with Windows 7 (renaming a file anywhere with the F2 key), but those days are over. With Mac I still don't know what the Mac / option / control / fn / shift keys mean and can't remember keyboard shortcuts, so I'm much more dependent on the touchpad, but at least the touchpad is awesome.

BrotherBisquick 4y ago

What is 'SIP' in this context?