14 ms·

On the one hand: If your culture needs a preservation movement, it's not a culture, but a relic. Culture is defined by people, not some sacred thing that needs

• shivekkhurana 4y ago
  I watched a Dr. Huberman podcast on dance and language. One of the key takeaways was that speaking and thinking are interrelated. When you are thinking, the same area of the vocal chords are activated but with a lower intensity compared to when you are speaking. This means that what you cannot speak, you cannot think. By prioritising Italian, they are scientifically enabling the population to think more like Italians. I don’t care about the ban though, it doesn’t affect me.
  • akomtu 4y ago
    How do you think about music, art or abstract math? I doubt an architect designer speaks his design in his head.
  • circuit10 4y ago
    I would think it’s more that you think in abstract concepts, then automatically put that into words in the background, because sometimes you think of a concept but the words for it don’t come to you for a bit and also apparently some people don’t even have an internal monologue at all
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  • Karellen 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity (aka Sapir-Whorf hypothesis)
    • MrJohz 4y ago
      Note that there is a distinction to be made between linguistic determination (language controls how one thinks) and linguistics relativity (language affects how one thinks). The former idea is largely discredited, the latter accepted with lots of caveats. What the previous poster if describing is a strong, deterministic relationship between language and thought (the idea that, by banning certain uses of language, they can control how Italians think). This is essentially nonsense: Italians are Italian, regardless of whether they work in a company run by a CEO or an "amministratore delegato".
  • deafpolygon 4y ago
    > This means that what you cannot speak, you cannot think. This is false.
• seydor 4y ago
  [flagged]
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  • Quarrelsome 4y ago
    I'd vehemently disagree. There's a clear cultural divide between the average of the US and the average of Europe on many topics, albeit much of that is a cause of the large quantity of remaining traditionalists in the US skewing the American average. For example there's clear differences on secularism, gun-rights, access to abortion, universal healthcare, labour laws, privacy and regulation. > The silent death of europe occured somewhere in the 00s Sorry, how are we measuring this exactly? It's a significant reach of a statement by almost every measure. For example; if the EU is so "dead" then why do US manufacturers respect its regulations?
    • amscanne 4y ago
      > secularism, gun-rights, access to abortion, universal healthcare, labour laws, privacy and regulation I think most of these things are political rather than cultural. Specific laws take a variable amount of time to change/evolve, but are generally downstream of culture. Listing these kinds of political issues also tends to create a weird bias as you’re generally paying attention to the most extreme takes on all sides (e.g. you’ve listed access to abortion, but I would hardly consider this to be an indicator that the US was more culturally liberal than most of Europe pre-2022, just as I wouldn’t consider it an indicator that it is less culturally liberal post-2022,… it is more a political artifact than a genuine measure of culture).
    • giantg2 4y ago
      "between the average of the US and the average of Europe" I'm not sure how one even defines these. As an example, most of the examples you give have a near 50/50 (+/-10%) split here in the US.
      • 4y ago
• jdthedisciple 4y ago
  Meta-point: Does the pendulum really ever settle in the middle with anything society?
  • 4gotunameagain 4y ago
    no, but the amplitude of the oscillations decays (maybe exponentially, to keep our analogy fitting?)
  • Quarrelsome 4y ago
    populism will always seek to implement inexpensive grandstanding like this, because its cheap and requires zero-competence and in return for spending zero effort and money you get to virtue signal to electors that are nationalists. I wouldn't class this as anywhere on the pendulum as its not an economic policy and social issues are a bit of a fudge into the classical left/right spectrum.
    • satellite2 4y ago
      German was largely influenced and modified by nazism. Proper German words and syntax were pushed. This is part of a trend that's far from virtue signaling. Year after year the initiatives of the far right get more extreme but don't feel like so because they're only a small increments above the previous one.
      • Quarrelsome 4y ago
        > This is part of a trend that's far from virtue signaling. I would argue that signalling fascist virtues is still a form of virtue signalling. It just depends on what you consider to be a virtue. But yea, any attempts at cultural renaissance are vulnerable to nationalist and even fascist tendencies.
• uejfiweun 4y ago
  > rather the way of thinking about the world. As an American who has lived in the US my whole life, it can be tough to see outside the box, so to speak. What parts of the US worldview are being exported? How does it differ with traditional attitudes?
  • pyrale 4y ago
    A few examples: Your far-right political movements, especially religious movements, are actively trying to export themselves to Europe, with varying success depending on the specific trend. A large part of corporate culture, as people in EU management still long for an idealized version of what exists in the US. Outside of a few pockets, EU entertainment has more or less completely been wiped out now, so any culture borne by entertainment is mostly US now.
    • deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    • relativ575 4y ago
      > are actively trying to export themselves to Europe What are the evidence of this? Has there been an uptick in American right-wings activities in Europe?
      • pyrale 4y ago
        An example of it: https://www.politico.eu/article/roe-vs-wade-us-the-european-activists-taking-inspiration-and-money-from-us-anti-abortion-groups/ https://www.politico.eu/article/roe-vs-wade-us-the-european-...
        • revelio 4y ago
          That's not a cultural export. Opposition to abortion is found around the world and European abortion laws were generally more tough than US laws before Roe v Wade was overturned. Opposition to abortion is largely associated with Catholicism which is far stronger in Europee and Latin America than North America.
• giantg2 4y ago
  To be fair, American culture is not homogeneous either. There are multiple cultures throughout the country. Whatever version of thinking you're talking about is likely has both supporters and detractors here.
  • pastacacioepepe 4y ago
    It's not a version of USA culture (not American), it's the propagation of Capitalism, of the "american" dream, of USA exceptionalism. The idea that their army is the coolest and will save us from aliens, that their bilionaires (oligarchs) are secretly superheroes, that foreign leaders are crooks secretly plotting to conquer the world and so on.
    • edgyquant 4y ago
      >The idea that their army is the coolest and will save us from aliens, that their bilionaires are secretly superheroes, that foreign leaders are crooks secretly plotting to conquer the world and so on. These are Projections
      • skavi 4y ago
        As an American, I’m not so sure.
      • pastacacioepepe 4y ago
        butthurt USAer
    • majormajor 4y ago
      > The idea that their army is the coolest and will save us from aliens, that their bilionaires (oligarchs) are secretly superheroes, that foreign leaders are crooks secretly plotting to conquer the world and so on. Nothing more American than this example of how an oft-derided-in-the-rest-of-the-US bunch of coastal Hollywood elites constantly put out a bunch of movies glorifying guns, violence, capitalism, and the USA.
• Quarrelsome 4y ago
  I don't think its necessarily about the culture itself here, its merely a cheap populist tactic to rabble-rouse among a nation that has a rich history and struggles to handle the fact that its present isn't at that zenith. France do a lot of this sort of thing too. I would argue that belittling cultural preservation demonstrates deep Anglo-centric bias. While its fine for lulz, I worry that you're being sincere. Try asking _anyone_ who doesn't have English as their first language in a serious context how they feel about their language and you'll struggle to find someone without a genuine fondness for it. On paper there is absolutely nothing wrong with cultures seeking to preserve the use of their own language, however it is fair for us to argue that restrictive and punitive measures such as this are not helpful. Bear in mind one day English will no longer be the lingua franca as demonstrated by the word for lingua franca. ;). Would English then be a "relic" to you?
  • ghusto 4y ago
    > Try asking _anyone_ who doesn't have English as their first language in a serious context how they feel about their language I asked myself, and I said; 'meh'. Admittedly I speak English better than my first language now, and I'm also being deliberately facetious, but it's also true that I don't much care about my first language. > Bear in mind one day English will no longer be the lingua franca as demonstrated by the word for lingua franca. ;) I used to think it was hilariously ironic too, but then I stumbled on the actual etymology one day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_franca?oldformat=true#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_franca?oldformat=true#E...
  • throw_a_grenade 4y ago
    > Try asking _anyone_ who doesn't have English as their first language in a serious context how they feel about their language and you'll struggle to find someone without a genuine fondness for it. Well. My first language is Polish, and there are some of us who call it "superpowers". If you go to a conference, you can be quite sure no-one understands you apart from your friend who you are talking to, and possibly that one passer by, who is also Polish or Ukrainian. That is, unless we start to curse. Then we are probably well understood.
• dfxm12 4y ago
  This is coming from an increasingly right wing, nationalist, Italian government. This is the type of government that will disqualify a person or way of thinking just because of where it comes from, and this type of xenophobia is kinda dangerous. Plus, the emphasis on "correct use of the Italian language and its pronunciation" also seems to discriminate against people who speak southern dialects. After all, Tu vuò fà l'americano is merely satire. https://youtu.be/BqlJwMFtMCs https://youtu.be/BqlJwMFtMCs
  • InCityDreams 4y ago
    An Northern dialects, too.
  • Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
    Every italian region has a dialect. Even Meloni herself can be clearly recognized as being from Rome based on the choice of words and pronunciation. I find that beautiful, but this law seems to be against it
    • paganel 4y ago
      I would say many Southern dialects are (or were, more exactly) proper languages, it's only with the advent of the Unification of Italy that the "florentine language" got the upper hand. For example just this evening I was listening to this Neapolitan (I think it's Neapolitan, definitely Southern) song Brigante se more [1] and I needed to see the written down lyrics to get a hold of it [2], as I couldn't understand almost anything at a first hearing. I know Italian pretty well, but I just couldn't parse the song when hearing it directly. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haF2sPzb63s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haF2sPzb63s [2] https://theitaliansong.com/songs/brigante-se-more/ https://theitaliansong.com/songs/brigante-se-more/
• chimeracoder 4y ago
  > How much of the Italian cuisine they're trying to protect would exist if they had the same attitude in the 1500s, when the tomato was introduced to Italy? This is a funny example to use, because while the first tomato reached Europe in the early 16th century, it was not widely eaten in Italy until the mid-to-end of the nineteenth century. For a number of reasons, people (incorrectly) believed them to be poisonous.
• 908B64B197 4y ago
  > How much of the Italian cuisine they're trying to protect would exist if they had the same attitude in the 1500s, when the tomato was introduced to Italy? Nitpick, but there was no such thing as "Italy" in the 1500s. There were several kingdoms and city states at war against one another. Modern Italy is a 19th century invention.
  • eternalban 4y ago
    There was a coherent and distinct civilization identifiable as Italian, regardless of nation-state notions. https://pressbooks.ulib.csuohio.edu/italian-americans-and-their-communities-of-cleveland/chapter/chapter-1/ https://pressbooks.ulib.csuohio.edu/italian-americans-and-th...
  • Bayart 4y ago
    There was absolutely a sense of Italy in the 1500s, in fact it's the period where it really took off.
• hackerlight 4y ago
  > I think countries should resist global cultural homogenisation. The only way to achieve this is with illiberal, authoritarian measures -- I.E. a centralized government forcing people to think and behave in a certain way. And not because such thoughts or behavior is harmful in any way, it's only because it's aesthetically displeasing. Not good. Also, not all cultural homogenisation is created equal. It's good that all cultures have evolved to say that murder is a bad thing. That was cultural homogenisation, and it was good.
• peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  I wish these relic of the RSI (Italian Social Republic) of fascist memory where really thinking of the culture, even though it's a culture many Italians, including my family, fought and gave their lives to defeat. It is all smoke and mirrors to distract the public opinion from the government's failures. OTOH the use of English words that have an equivalent in Italian has reached such high levels of stupidity that it has become a popular meme here, under the name "Milanese imbruttito" which roughly translates to "this is too much even for someone from Milan"
• wizofaus 4y ago
  The music and films are a big part of what conveys the American way of thinking about the world surely? I'll only genuinely start worrying about the Americanisation of world if the US somehow starts successfully exporting its insane attitudes towards guns, women's bodies and universal healthcare. Oh, and imperial units...
  • mihaic 4y ago
    The US has managed to export significant parts of its political discourse in places where it makes no sense to have those discussions, simply by controlling global news. I think you underestimate how much this is.
    • revelio 4y ago
      They don't control global news. How many people watch Fox or CNN outside the USA? The actual way this gets exported is via the HR firms and executive picks of American corporations. That then affects the funding of movies, TV shows, video games and everything downstream of that.
      • GoblinSlayer 4y ago
        Facebook is global news.
  • rrrrrrrrrrrryan 4y ago
    It's hard for me to imagine guns or imperial units catching on any time soon (to be fair, we didn't invent imperial units!), but I would not be too surprised if some European nations start slowly privatizing bits of their healthcare systems. The profit motive is sneaky and creeps in slowly. Usually it starts by capturing the hearts and minds of those in power. And regarding attitudes toward women's bodies, one only needs to visit any beach in southern Spain and count up the topless women to notice those values are already Americanizing.
    • wizofaus 4y ago
• thinkingemote 4y ago
  Developing countries with their own culture also desire protection. Is it the law of the fittest or are some things actually sacred and worth preserving? Some might say only non western or ex colonised countries should get protection and the ex colonisers culture should be left to rot (i.e. to be swallowed up by Disney). I think that's the neo liberal / left view. It's a bit biased in my opinion but it's certainly a common thing I've heard.
• avgcorrection 4y ago
  > I don't mean music and films, but rather the way of thinking about the world. For example?
  • drstewart 4y ago
    [flagged]
    • YeBanKo 4y ago
      Why did you come to this conclusion? Was there a follow up reply, where he elaborated?
• vkou 4y ago
  > On the one hand: If your culture needs a preservation movement, it's not a culture, but a relic. Just because some aspect of the commons would be lost to the pressures of market economics doesn't mean it's not worth preserving. If left to the tyranny of markets, we'd cut down every tree, dam every stream, catch every fish in the ocean, and the only culture you'd have would be drip-fed to you for $120/month by a television syndicate. Also, even Americans aren't interested in leaving their culture up to the markets. Remember all the hoopalah about Disney and the NBA kowtowing to China, and how incensed people were that their culture was being changed by foreign sensibilities? The rest of the world gets to wear this shoe, a lot.
  • notpachet 4y ago
    Well, we're not really that far off...
• poisonarena 4y ago
  While not Europe, I can tell you my experience in Israel as someone who lived there in the 2000's, left in the 2010s, and returned in the 2020s(felt like a time machine).. within about 10-15 years so much of what I think was distinct about israeli culture seemed to vanish and it felt like American culture made a huge impact short of some older russian enclave communities(not including their children). Everything from television/music/movies/media, to slang and dating, politics and views, and just how people behaved in general (grew up in southern tel aviv surrounded by 'arsim' like a type of chav or something). There is still relics of it in behavior and style but it is almost always something I notice in people 40+ years. I also saw it happen over the course of maybe 4-5 years when I lived in Mexico City in 2013-2017.
• coding123 4y ago
  I get you have two hands, but they just said exactly opposite things. If you don't need a preservation movement, then there's no need to worry about global cultural homogenisation. So which is it? Or did you just speak too soon on hand 1?
• WalterBright 4y ago
  I remember visiting a shopping mall in Stuttgart. From the parking garage, to the building architecture, to the layout, to the businesses, to the advertising signs, you could not tell you were in a country other than the US. It was kinda sad.
  • jimvdv 4y ago
    If I enter a shopping mall in my country I expect it to be American the same way I expect a McDonald’s to be American. I mean, the very concept is foreign.
    • edgineer 4y ago
      Fun fact, the word "mall" comes from the Italian "pallamaglio" [0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-history-of-the-word-mall https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-history-of...
      • walthamstow 4y ago
        Thanks for this. I always wondered why the road leading west from Trafalgar Sq was called Pall Mall.
  • samtho 4y ago
    Serious question (not rhetorical). Do you think this a problem could be that large, international cities tend to copy US cities or do you think that they themselves become homogenous with one another? Former West Germany is also a particularly egregious example of US influence due to our historical involvement there.
    • WalterBright 4y ago
      I don't know, but having lived in Germany for a while, I prefer the German way of shopping in the Alt Stadt. I've often thought that if I designed a planned community, I'd model it after an Alt Stadt. Complete with town wall and a moat, of course!
• vic-traill 4y ago
  > Culture is defined by people, not some sacred thing that needs to be preserved A counter to this is the Académie Française [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acad%C3%A9mie_Fran%C3%A7aise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acad%C3%A9mie_Fran%C3%A7aise
  • ur-whale 4y ago
    > A counter to this is the Académie Française Which happens to be the laughing stock of the rest of the world, good call.
    • nindalf 4y ago
      But without them, how would we have figured out if Covid was male or female? https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/13/le-la-covid-coronavirus-acronym-feminine-academie-francaise-france https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/13/le-la-covid-co...
  • orwin 4y ago
    This is the French thing that I'm the most ashamed of. I'd rather defend Napoleon post 4th coalition or any king post Henry IV than the 'académie française'
  • TRiG_Ireland 4y ago
    If you ignore the Académie Française's overblown sense of self-importance and just treat is as publishing a style guide to be followed by official publications, you'll see it as fairly reasonable. Most countries have a style guide for official publications, don't they?
• andsoitis 4y ago
  > I don't mean music and films, but rather the way of thinking about the world. I’m not sure I know what you mean. Can you elaborate on this world view that you say American culture is exporting?
• Aerroon 4y ago
  >No offence meant to the Americans here, but I detest the exportation of American culture to Europe. I don't mean music and films, but rather the way of thinking about the world. I think music and film are actually the primary way that this American culture is exported. Think about the whole culture surrounding movies - much of it is controlled and inspired by Hollywood. I agree that it would be nice if the rest of the world wouldn't become so Americanized, but I think that's only viable if the population doesn't learn English en masse.
  • xiphias2 4y ago
    At this point there are much worse American things. In a small European country's facebook I can't have a day without a payed onlyfans advertisement hidden in a story about a poor teacher who became rich instantly after she started a side job.
    • Mordisquitos 4y ago
      While I do agree that cultural Americanisation is a problem, I must point put that OnlyFans is a UK-based company.
      • aa-jv 4y ago
        The UK is an American sub-state in all ways that is possible.
• paganel 4y ago
  This is a pure Anglo view, there is such a thing as L'Académie française which has done its thing related to the preservation of the French language and it has done a pretty good job at it. Also, language is different compared to cuisine. Not saying that cuisine isn't important in defining a nation's "character", because it is, but language is quintessential when it comes to nation-building.
• duxup 4y ago
  Weird / awkward efforts to preserve things is a human trait.
• georgeplusplus 4y ago
  Agreed. I think people are missing the in point that the bill is to make Italian the focus that it is the primary language and that English has hijacked it in many ways.
• flexie 4y ago
  English too, is a mix of foreign languages. Only dead languages don't evolve. Italian is a descendant of the Latin language, which itself borrowed extensively from Greek. What is so special about today's Italian language that it should by all means be preserved in it's current form without continuing to borrow from foreign languages? European languages borrow from English because the US offers so much that we voluntarily adopt in Europe. If most good movies, music, streaming services, computer hardware, computer software, Internet, electric cars, smartphones, AI, business ideas etc. were Italian, the English language would adopt more Italian words.
  • makingstuffs 4y ago
    The weirdest thing about this sensationalist proposal is that English was born out of Latin and there are a number of English words which are a letter removed from their Italian counterpart. The example in the article (bru-shetta/bru-sketta) highlights the absurd pedantic nature of this proposal. I truly weep for the world which we seem to have created.
    • TRiG_Ireland 4y ago
      English has some heavy Romance influences, but was certainly not "born out of Latin". English is a Germanic language at its core.
• jacquesm 4y ago
  > I suspect this is where things like these proposals are coming from They're a mild form of isolationism and nationalism and they can but do not have to be the first stage of a country moving further away from the center rather than a pendulum swing. With a pendulum the assumption is that it will move back but this sort of thing can easily move a country to the right and then ultra right, of which history carries a fair number of examples.
• YeBanKo 4y ago
  What specific aspects of the American way of thinking do you not like? Genuinely curious.
• bombolo 4y ago
  > suspect this is where things like these proposals are coming from; it's the pendulum swing reaching too far before it settles in the middle. Current italian government is 100% USA's puppet with no shame. The provision in the proposal to force every public meeting to be held in italian is crazy… it'd kill holding scientific conferences in italy. To be honest I'd want them to push it as an internal memo for the national tv. There is this trend to insert english words (mostly wrongly, just like americans use italian words mostly incorrectly as well) to sound cool. If this was eliminated from TV, I'd imagine it would go a long way already.
• jamisteven 4y ago
  I would argue that it is importation, rather than exportation.
• realusername 4y ago
  It's the same phenomenon in the US as well, when trending Github repos became 80% in Chinese, Github added ... a language filter so that you can filter them out. Pointing fingers is a bit hypocritical when most cultures will do it given the circumstances.
• marginalia_nu 4y ago
  > Culture is defined by people, not some sacred thing that needs to be preserved. Are these two mutually exclusive?
• aa-jv 4y ago
  All culture is a lie which persists only in the re-telling. There is no such thing as Italy or America, except when a few million people agree and re-tell the lie that is "Italy" and "America". If more people realized this, they'd be less rigid to the idea of new - or indeed, old - culture being re-told - or not. The fact is, if you don't use a language - it dies. Italians are merely trying to protect the lies that they prefer to be re-told.. What the world needs is more people willing to protect cultures which are not their own. There is no one culture more superior to any other - ALL cultures are subject to total loss when the natural fallacies that make up that culture stop being re-told as human truths ..