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I think we (Americans and Europeans alike) wholly underestimate how Americanised European culture is becoming. This is an observation rather than a criticism a
by hunglee2 4y ago
I think we (Americans and Europeans alike) wholly underestimate how Americanised European culture is becoming.
This is an observation rather than a criticism as I don't know whether this is 'good' or 'bad' but it is noticeable phenomena manifest through language, and probably an unintended consequence of the dependency of Europe on US communication technology, leading to the import of US communication styles, political priorities and cultural values.
France have always been conscious of this, no doubt as a result of their centuries old conflict with England, but it is interesting now to see Italian nationalists responding similarly. It's futile of course, as neither Italians, French nor any combination of European countries can or will make an internet independent of the US
- sschueller 4y agoI think Rammstein put it in perspective how it feels sometimes. [1] [1] https://youtu.be/Rr8ljRgcJNM https://youtu.be/Rr8ljRgcJNM
- Gare 4y agoAnd that was 19 years ago!
- pnt12 4y agoThere's an even older Italian song about it: https://youtu.be/BqlJwMFtMCs https://youtu.be/BqlJwMFtMCs I guess driven by significant emigration from Italy to USA. Here in Portugal, we also have some... Issues... With France emigrants who return to the country.
- adventured 4y agoWell you'd need a lot more than an Internet independent of the US. The same US cultural influence was prominent before the Internet became popular. You'd either need a new super popular language apart from the globally popular English, and or you'd need English to decline substantially (this would decimate the US cultural output/reach/influence). It's worth noting that a variation of language collapse may be occurring. The English speaking part of the US is imploding (aging demographics, fentynal, Covid, mediocre healthcare for the bottom 1/2, etc), the Spanish speaking part of the US is rapidly taking marketshare (immigration being the only thing keeping the US population afloat). You can expect some decline in US cultural power accordingly, as Spanish is less popular globally than English (and far less potent as an entertainment, media force). The EU will indeed end up more or less making their own Internet. That's happening gradually. Their own rules, laws, beliefs are increasingly governing their slice of cyberspace (and anything in tech broadly). That separation will only get wider. Over time, the laws governing the EU Internet end up making it quite distinct from the US Internet, from the Chinese Internet, from the Russian Internet, and so on (as different as the physical spaces are today, at least).
- hunglee2 4y agovery good point - I think EU bureaucracy may well create a version of the US internet which is at least a different flavour to that which the US citizens use have access to. Italy banning ChatGPT on GDPR grounds for example - surely there will be a (very bad) local replacement which Italians can then use. However rather than a different internet altogether, it might just be a washed out version of what the US uses
- _vbnz 4y agoYeah, it was shocking here in Stockholm when there were BLM protests in 2020. It's like people are more involved in US politics than their national politics.
- forinti 4y agoI had to get books on MLK and Rosa Parks for my kid's school. Why?? This drives me crazy. They are not part of my country's history and we have plenty of local heroes.
- wolverine876 4y agoWhy restrict your kid's knowledge? I know about plenty of people in plenty of countries.
- pessimizer 4y agoDid you have to read books about Slovenian history in school? There's not enough time to include everything about everyone. The history of the descendants of US slaves might be more interesting to people because of our cultural reach, but it's not necessary for Slovenian kids to learn except as an example of a well documented protest movement.
- aa-jv 4y agoSerious question: does Slovenia have civil rights events in its history comparable to those in the USA? Because, try as I might, I can't think of another country with as serious a history of civil rights (abuses and promotion) than the USA - I'd love to hear of an underrated civil rights movement in Slovenia.
- forinti 4y agoYou see, that's the whole issue right there. Slovenia has its own history, its own problems, and its own heroes. Those things are important for the Slovenian people, not the problems created and sort of solved by the US. In my country (Brazil if you must know) the cultural avalanche that comes from the US is such that some people genuinely admire the US civil rights movement and its leaders, but will not tolerate anything similar locally. Such is the power of propaganda: you get tied up in the problems of the US and ignore your own.
- pyuser583 4y agoBut “Italian nationalists” aren’t a thing. There have been Italian language wars in border regions but they fizzle once non-locals get involved. For example, South Tyrol has a large German speaking population. The Italian government has historically encouraged adoption of Italian. But South Tyrol has (had?) a large Sicilian population that supported the local German speakers.
- hunglee2 4y agoVery interesting observation! I think it's great if local languages and identifies can continue to thrive, but I don't think it can be said that Italian nationalism isn't a thing though - it has explicitly been a thing as the suppression of regional dialects and the 'making of Italians' was a stated objective of Italian nationalists immediately after the unification of Italy. btw this does not make Italy exceptional in any way, the way modern 'nation states' were built followed exactly this pattern - suppression of regional languages - 'cultural genocide' - and the creation a new national identity to replace them
- pyuser583 4y agoThe “making of Italians” has usually meant imposing northern Italian norms and language upon Southerners. It’s always been touch and go. Garbaldi and Mussolini placed a strong emphasis on “nationalism,” but other leaders were more focused on a building coalitions. Can you give me the names of some Italian nationalist parties? I was told by my Sicilian family the only reason Sicily is a part of Italy is Garibaldis ship was blown off course during a storm. No idea if that’s true.
- hunglee2 4y agoyes absolutely, 'Italian' is Florentine right? Same with modern French, which is basically Parisian, modern Spanish essentially Castillian. There is never an neutral language, it is linguistic supremacism one over the other. I absolutely respect Sicilians (and other regional groups) for resisting 'Florentine cultural imperialism'
- anigbrowl 4y agoIt's a kind of cultural colonialism, albeit reflexive as much as strategic.
- belugacat 4y agoIf you can read French, I highly recommend “Civilisation : comment nous sommes devenus américains” by Régis Debray. One of the most lucid analyses of the cultural situation we’re in I’ve found.
- henriquemaia 4y agoThanks for the recommendation. I can read French, and that seems an interesting read. However, there's already an English translation of that book. It's published under the ttitle _Civilization: How we All Became American_, and was translated by David Fernbach. Anyway, thanks again for pointing out this book. I'll be looking into it thanks to your suggestion.
- Levitz 4y agoI live in the Basque Country, where there is considerable effort put by the government to preserve Basque language and culture. It has always seemed like a losing battle to me. Basque people might speak more Basque, but they still see Netflix, listen to international bands via Spotify and immerse themselves in international trends via Instagram and Tiktok. My conclusion is that the government does this because language is the one part of culture the government can legislate around.
- tossaway0 4y agoI'm Basque but have lived outside the Basque Country for a long time. I actually now find the cultural efforts of the Basque government to have been beneficial, even if most people I know would call them onerous. I think it has played out well for the Basque Country to emphasize Basqueness (whatever that can mean) as a way to distinguish a place that may otherwise have stood out even less on a global stage.
- hackerlight 4y agoIt's been happening in Russia for decades, too. The status symbols among the upper leadership of the Soviet Union during the Cold War were all products of Western capitalism. For example, luxury cars. That continues today, and Putin, due to being a Russian nationalist, is actively fighting against it (even though he himself wears luxury Western clothing). You could even argue it was one of his motivations for invading Ukraine. He saw the decreasing influence of Russian culture inside Ukraine, and he responded with force. The only way to effectively fight this homogenisation is to use authoritarian measures that force people into compliance. And that's when you are bordering on literal fascism, using force on your own people to ensure conformity to cultural and national norms. Cultural homogenisation is a natural process that will happen when you integrate people with trade, the internet, transport, and communications. You can't fight these processes without significant and unreasonable amounts of force applied to people.
- panick21_ 4y agoIts kind of ridiculous. This is like a 1970s thing. To jump on this now is kind absurd.