6 ms·

This attitude is well suited to an employers market in which you need to profess your love for the job and company as part of your job application. A pity the m

This attitude is well suited to an employers market in which you need to profess your love for the job and company as part of your job application. A pity the market has turned back this direction. It’s usually accompanied by an employer “looking for someone who loves the opportunity enough to go through our 12 week, 9 interview, 1 whiteboard, 2 coding test process which usually ends in veto and ghosting”. Like telling a girl/guy you love them before first date.

leipert 4y ago
I get your point. But when you go through hundreds of applications for a single role, the ones with a cover letter do stand out. Not that I would only hire if you had a cover letter, but it still stands out. One hand folks complain about automatic scanning and rejection based on just the CVs and here we are complaining about the one instrument, a job seeker has, to express interest in the company. To go with your date analogy, a cover letter might not need to be a love declaration, but maybe a message that looked at the other’s profile rather than just “what’s up”.
- ehutch79 4y ago
  It’s not the cover letter that’s really the problem here. It’s the cult like exuberance that seems to be demands by GP and sibling comments.
  - version_five 4y ago
    I didn't see any cult like exuberance. I used to hire and the "cover letter" criteria I had was basically looking for some hint they were deliberately applying for this job because it interested them. That's what I get from the OP. It's not about looking for someone who's pretending they've found their life's passion. It's about preferring people who (hopefully honestly) indicate this would be something they'd want to do because of some fit between them and the job. That's not a burdensome, not cultish requirement. As an aside, I saw a cool job not long ago where they wanted your application email to have the subject line "$demonym reporting for duty", where $demonym is the cutesy name, like metamate that employees were supposed to call themselves. That is cultish, and puts me off applying way more than being asked for an sentence on why I'm a fit for the job.
    - haasted 4y ago
      Couldn't it be a simple test of whether the applicant had read the posting thoroughly? It's a quick filter to remove anyone who didn't manage to fulfill this no-effort criteria in their application. A lot of applicants simply send their resumes to any position that is vaguely relevant, without diving into the details of the role. A little bit like Van Halen's "Brown M&M clause": https://effectiviology.com/brown-mms/ https://effectiviology.com/brown-mms/
      - version_five 4y ago
        Yes, they definitely helps. I posted some jobs on linkedin and got absolutely garbage applicants. So the next time I wrote "do not apply on LinkedIn, email cv to xxxx". It was unbelievable to see how I had exactly the same wave of useless applications come in via LinkedIn's automated process, which I got to summarily ignore, and got a way higher average quality sent by email.
    - surgical_fire 4y ago
      > they were deliberately applying for this job because it interested them If they sent the CV, they did deliberate apply for the job. I always hated writing cover letters, always felt like the employer wanted me to do some groveling before I earned the right to be graced with an interview. Good thing now I have ChatGPT for the rescue.
- gymbeaux 4y ago
  I never made the connection before, but yes online dating apps are a LOT like interviewing for software jobs. In both cases, I am/was "rejected" a lot, but in both cases, wherever/whoever I ended up with, was very happy with me. I think most likely the conclusion to be drawn is that humans suck at evaluating other humans.
  - camgunz 4y ago
    > I think most likely the conclusion to be drawn is that humans suck at evaluating other humans. In these circumstances definitely. It's a tall ask to accurately evaluate someone romantically or professionally based on a profile/resume and a few hours of face time. I think unions have a good method of doing this actually: people no one wants to work with wash out.
  - ryandrake 4y ago
    The job market works exactly like the dating market would if there were 1,000 available men for every 1 available woman. In other words… like online dating.
- pasquinelli 4y ago
  i think the real move is to situate yourself in a relationship with the prospective employer where the resume and cover letter and interview and all are formalities done after you've already got the job, but that's a tough thing to just do in a hurry, like, say, if you just got shit-canned. maybe you'll do better with a cover letter, but it's still a cold-calling sales job, with success rates to match.
- sharas- 4y ago
  Most jobs out there are straight up boring. Due to the way simplistifi'er managers are structuring the system. It selects for accountable people, not responsible people. Even if the domain has something interesting in it. The filtering starts with HR functionary demanding a love letter to enter the managers' dollhouse. https://bitslap.it/blog/posts/playground-it.html#part-i---managers-dollhouse https://bitslap.it/blog/posts/playground-it.html#part-i---ma...
- sys_64738 4y ago
  If you get hundreds of applications then they're scanned into a database and ones with the buzzwords are deleted. A cover letter isn't even consumed by anybody other than the trash as the hiring manager isn't opening the mail. That doesn't happen anymore.
- analognoise 4y ago
  The only times I've ever sent a cover letter I was told "What cover letter?" The automatic system separated it and nobody looked at it.
jensneuse 4y ago
I understand where you're coming from, but see it differently. This really is a filter. We don't want job applications from people who are looking for a job. We're looking for people who actually want to do work at WunderGraph. We're the first to build a Backend for Frontend Framework, unifying the ideas of API Gateway, BFF and package manager. Our long term goal is to build the GitHub for APIs, a collaborative platform to enable true collaboration between API producers and API consumers. Either you're excited about this as much as we are, or you just send a CV. We're not offering you a job. We offer you the opportunity to work together with a smart bunch of people on a very hard problem. It's simply not enough to say "hi". It's fine if your focus is your private life and you really just need a paycheck. A lot of corporates will fight for you. On our end, we need to filter out people who really just want to fill a role to make ends meet. It's really not about loving what we do. That misses the point. It's about transparency of our goals align.
- jacobriis 4y ago
  Couldn’t tell if this is satire. Love it.
  - musicale 4y ago
    The era of AI-written recruitment pitches has begun.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      "begun the era of AI-written recruitment pitches has" FTFY
      - SgtBastard 4y ago
        You were supposed to bring balance to the market, not destroy it!
        musicale 4y ago
smsm42 4y ago
Not a bad analogy btw. Love at the first sight is very rare. What you could expect is a certain amount of interest - which could develop if all goes well. But expecting people to be madly in love with your company after reading a website is a bit megalomanic - or just selecting for people who are really good at faking.
- nitwit005 4y ago
  I definitely read that as someone who wants people to praise them.
Brian_K_White 4y ago
They didn't say anything remotely ike that. Hyperbole is not an argument.
ajsnigrutin 4y ago
Yep, especially since the answer the the first question ("1. Why do you want to take this role?") is usually: "you have work to do, and have the money, I can do the work, and want the money"
- Ekaros 4y ago
  If I truly loved your vision or product or something or believed in it, I probably would start my own competition. If I want to invest in it why not go all in. But I don't. So it is a transaction and you are one in hundreds of options I have over years. And you should also treat it like that.
  - Leherenn 4y ago
    Isn't there some healthy middle ground? I find some domains more interesting than others, I prefer some technical aspects over others. Some projects make more sense to me, or at least make me feel better. Not enough to start my own company, but enough that the options leaning towards those will have the nod. You can be engaged without dedicating your life to it.
    - Ekaros 4y ago
      I think it is more question that if a startup ask for passion and believe in their marketing. And one really had that, would it not be better to drive it yourself? For those with not that strong convictions. Picking up reasonably interesting roles and fields where they have some skill coverage is entirely reasonable way to do things. Go for roles and companies you can be content with.
      - em-bee 4y ago
        not everyone who believes in a business has the resources or the will, or even the skill to do that. also, if i believe in a business, that doesn't mean it makes sense to compete with them. to give an example, i really love what valve is doing for gaming on linux. i would love to work for them. are you suggesting that i should start my own gaming company? if i really like a company, i want to see that company succeed, not start another. also, for myself, i really don't want to work for a company whose business i don't believe in. i would, if it was the only option, but if i have a choice then i prefer to work for a company whose business goals and practices i can agree with. with startups in particular, there is also the issue that, if i don't believe in their business, that means i won't believe that they will be successful and then it doesn't make sense to work there.
Yoric 4y ago
Fun fact: I'm currently through an interview process that has lasted 11 weeks so far, including 12 discussions, 1 system design, 2 coding, 3 behavioral. The employer has informed me several times that they intend to make an offer and that my salary expectations are within their range... but they've been postponing the offer for 3 weeks now and clarified yesterday that they want me to profess that I'm more interested in them than in any other offer I have or might receive before they make an offer. FWIW, it's a fairly large tech company that pretty much everyone on HN has heard of.
- Uptrenda 4y ago
  This sounds sketchy and unprofessional. I'm surprised you said yes to that many interviews...
  - Yoric 4y ago
    This is 2023, the market is weird. I don't quite feel like playing diva :)
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- andrewstuart 4y ago
  You have the right to confirm likely salary offer after interview number two. Unfortunately there’s a really strange thing that happens in very long interview processes, is the employer starts to think something is wrong because the process has taken so long, despite the process being driven by them. Anyhow, to your situation…. It is now an employers market and some of them need to feel loved. So you should effusively tell them that you love the company and love the job.
  - Yoric 4y ago
    Well, I pretty much told them that 2 weeks ago. If they want more than that... I'm not sure what else I can do. Right now, I'm actually starting to ponder whether I should tell them "no", because it starts to feel like a red flag.
pasquinelli 4y ago
yeah, and back when it was a tight labor market, when employers were supposedly dying for anyone they could use, i don't recall the opposite attitude prevailing. of course, i'm not really in that scene anymore, so i could've missed it.

leipert 4y ago

I get your point. But when you go through hundreds of applications for a single role, the ones with a cover letter do stand out. Not that I would only hire if you had a cover letter, but it still stands out. One hand folks complain about automatic scanning and rejection based on just the CVs and here we are complaining about the one instrument, a job seeker has, to express interest in the company. To go with your date analogy, a cover letter might not need to be a love declaration, but maybe a message that looked at the other’s profile rather than just “what’s up”.

ehutch79 4y ago
It’s not the cover letter that’s really the problem here. It’s the cult like exuberance that seems to be demands by GP and sibling comments.
- version_five 4y ago
  I didn't see any cult like exuberance. I used to hire and the "cover letter" criteria I had was basically looking for some hint they were deliberately applying for this job because it interested them. That's what I get from the OP. It's not about looking for someone who's pretending they've found their life's passion. It's about preferring people who (hopefully honestly) indicate this would be something they'd want to do because of some fit between them and the job. That's not a burdensome, not cultish requirement. As an aside, I saw a cool job not long ago where they wanted your application email to have the subject line "$demonym reporting for duty", where $demonym is the cutesy name, like metamate that employees were supposed to call themselves. That is cultish, and puts me off applying way more than being asked for an sentence on why I'm a fit for the job.
  - haasted 4y ago
    Couldn't it be a simple test of whether the applicant had read the posting thoroughly? It's a quick filter to remove anyone who didn't manage to fulfill this no-effort criteria in their application. A lot of applicants simply send their resumes to any position that is vaguely relevant, without diving into the details of the role. A little bit like Van Halen's "Brown M&M clause": https://effectiviology.com/brown-mms/ https://effectiviology.com/brown-mms/
    - version_five 4y ago
      Yes, they definitely helps. I posted some jobs on linkedin and got absolutely garbage applicants. So the next time I wrote "do not apply on LinkedIn, email cv to xxxx". It was unbelievable to see how I had exactly the same wave of useless applications come in via LinkedIn's automated process, which I got to summarily ignore, and got a way higher average quality sent by email.
  - surgical_fire 4y ago
    > they were deliberately applying for this job because it interested them If they sent the CV, they did deliberate apply for the job. I always hated writing cover letters, always felt like the employer wanted me to do some groveling before I earned the right to be graced with an interview. Good thing now I have ChatGPT for the rescue.
gymbeaux 4y ago
I never made the connection before, but yes online dating apps are a LOT like interviewing for software jobs. In both cases, I am/was "rejected" a lot, but in both cases, wherever/whoever I ended up with, was very happy with me. I think most likely the conclusion to be drawn is that humans suck at evaluating other humans.
- camgunz 4y ago
  > I think most likely the conclusion to be drawn is that humans suck at evaluating other humans. In these circumstances definitely. It's a tall ask to accurately evaluate someone romantically or professionally based on a profile/resume and a few hours of face time. I think unions have a good method of doing this actually: people no one wants to work with wash out.
- ryandrake 4y ago
  The job market works exactly like the dating market would if there were 1,000 available men for every 1 available woman. In other words… like online dating.
pasquinelli 4y ago
i think the real move is to situate yourself in a relationship with the prospective employer where the resume and cover letter and interview and all are formalities done after you've already got the job, but that's a tough thing to just do in a hurry, like, say, if you just got shit-canned. maybe you'll do better with a cover letter, but it's still a cold-calling sales job, with success rates to match.
sharas- 4y ago
Most jobs out there are straight up boring. Due to the way simplistifi'er managers are structuring the system. It selects for accountable people, not responsible people. Even if the domain has something interesting in it. The filtering starts with HR functionary demanding a love letter to enter the managers' dollhouse. https://bitslap.it/blog/posts/playground-it.html#part-i---managers-dollhouse https://bitslap.it/blog/posts/playground-it.html#part-i---ma...
sys_64738 4y ago
If you get hundreds of applications then they're scanned into a database and ones with the buzzwords are deleted. A cover letter isn't even consumed by anybody other than the trash as the hiring manager isn't opening the mail. That doesn't happen anymore.
analognoise 4y ago
The only times I've ever sent a cover letter I was told "What cover letter?" The automatic system separated it and nobody looked at it.

jensneuse 4y ago

I understand where you're coming from, but see it differently. This really is a filter. We don't want job applications from people who are looking for a job. We're looking for people who actually want to do work at WunderGraph. We're the first to build a Backend for Frontend Framework, unifying the ideas of API Gateway, BFF and package manager. Our long term goal is to build the GitHub for APIs, a collaborative platform to enable true collaboration between API producers and API consumers. Either you're excited about this as much as we are, or you just send a CV. We're not offering you a job. We offer you the opportunity to work together with a smart bunch of people on a very hard problem. It's simply not enough to say "hi". It's fine if your focus is your private life and you really just need a paycheck. A lot of corporates will fight for you. On our end, we need to filter out people who really just want to fill a role to make ends meet. It's really not about loving what we do. That misses the point. It's about transparency of our goals align.

jacobriis 4y ago
Couldn’t tell if this is satire. Love it.
- musicale 4y ago
  The era of AI-written recruitment pitches has begun.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    "begun the era of AI-written recruitment pitches has" FTFY
    - SgtBastard 4y ago
      You were supposed to bring balance to the market, not destroy it!
      - musicale 4y ago

smsm42 4y ago

Not a bad analogy btw. Love at the first sight is very rare. What you could expect is a certain amount of interest - which could develop if all goes well. But expecting people to be madly in love with your company after reading a website is a bit megalomanic - or just selecting for people who are really good at faking.

nitwit005 4y ago
I definitely read that as someone who wants people to praise them.

Brian_K_White 4y ago

They didn't say anything remotely ike that. Hyperbole is not an argument.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago

Yep, especially since the answer the the first question ("1. Why do you want to take this role?") is usually: "you have work to do, and have the money, I can do the work, and want the money"

Ekaros 4y ago
If I truly loved your vision or product or something or believed in it, I probably would start my own competition. If I want to invest in it why not go all in. But I don't. So it is a transaction and you are one in hundreds of options I have over years. And you should also treat it like that.
- Leherenn 4y ago
  Isn't there some healthy middle ground? I find some domains more interesting than others, I prefer some technical aspects over others. Some projects make more sense to me, or at least make me feel better. Not enough to start my own company, but enough that the options leaning towards those will have the nod. You can be engaged without dedicating your life to it.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    I think it is more question that if a startup ask for passion and believe in their marketing. And one really had that, would it not be better to drive it yourself? For those with not that strong convictions. Picking up reasonably interesting roles and fields where they have some skill coverage is entirely reasonable way to do things. Go for roles and companies you can be content with.
    - em-bee 4y ago
      not everyone who believes in a business has the resources or the will, or even the skill to do that. also, if i believe in a business, that doesn't mean it makes sense to compete with them. to give an example, i really love what valve is doing for gaming on linux. i would love to work for them. are you suggesting that i should start my own gaming company? if i really like a company, i want to see that company succeed, not start another. also, for myself, i really don't want to work for a company whose business i don't believe in. i would, if it was the only option, but if i have a choice then i prefer to work for a company whose business goals and practices i can agree with. with startups in particular, there is also the issue that, if i don't believe in their business, that means i won't believe that they will be successful and then it doesn't make sense to work there.

Yoric 4y ago

Fun fact: I'm currently through an interview process that has lasted 11 weeks so far, including 12 discussions, 1 system design, 2 coding, 3 behavioral. The employer has informed me several times that they intend to make an offer and that my salary expectations are within their range... but they've been postponing the offer for 3 weeks now and clarified yesterday that they want me to profess that I'm more interested in them than in any other offer I have or might receive before they make an offer. FWIW, it's a fairly large tech company that pretty much everyone on HN has heard of.

Uptrenda 4y ago
This sounds sketchy and unprofessional. I'm surprised you said yes to that many interviews...
- Yoric 4y ago
  This is 2023, the market is weird. I don't quite feel like playing diva :)
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
andrewstuart 4y ago
You have the right to confirm likely salary offer after interview number two. Unfortunately there’s a really strange thing that happens in very long interview processes, is the employer starts to think something is wrong because the process has taken so long, despite the process being driven by them. Anyhow, to your situation…. It is now an employers market and some of them need to feel loved. So you should effusively tell them that you love the company and love the job.
- Yoric 4y ago
  Well, I pretty much told them that 2 weeks ago. If they want more than that... I'm not sure what else I can do. Right now, I'm actually starting to ponder whether I should tell them "no", because it starts to feel like a red flag.

pasquinelli 4y ago

yeah, and back when it was a tight labor market, when employers were supposedly dying for anyone they could use, i don't recall the opposite attitude prevailing. of course, i'm not really in that scene anymore, so i could've missed it.