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this seems like a situation where audit logs would make regular tampering extremely obvious? is there just no oversight?

jetrink 4y ago
It also seems like it would come to light as soon as one of the trucks was involved in an accident. Checking the logs against who was operating the vehicle has to be one of the first things done during an investigation, if not by the regulator then by one of the involved insurance companies.
- UncleEntity 4y ago
  During the paper logs era that was the first thing they asked for because if they could prove the truck wasn’t able to be there legally their client wouldn’t have been able to slam in the back of it because they were texting. Not even kidding…
londons_explore 4y ago
The audit logs can never show who was actually behind the wheel. It will always be possible for someone to claim to be driving, while someone else was actually driving. The only fix is to have police on the highway randomly pulling over trucks, and checking that the driving license of the actual driver matches who the computer thinks is the driver. Anyone who is 'accidentally logged in as someone else' gets a warning... And if they are caught again, a lifetime commercial trucking ban.
- londons_explore 4y ago
  To catch the majority of truckers who are flouting the rules, you need to spot check each trucker perhaps 10x in a career. There are 3.5 million truckers in the USA, with typical career lengths of perhaps 30 years. So you need to inspect 3200 trucks/day. If an inspector takes 15 minutes to do an inspection (checking name, as well as visual roadworthiness checks), you need 100 inspectors. Or about 2 per state. As soon as word gets out that flouting these rules is career-ending, then the industry will probably mostly regulate itself. Seems pretty easy to solve this problem...
  - disgruntledphd2 4y ago
    > As soon as word gets out that flouting these rules is career-ending, then the industry will probably mostly regulate itself. Seems pretty easy to solve this problem... This has already happened, there's a reason most trucking companies last less than 18 months.
  - PragmaticPulp 4y ago
    > To catch the majority of truckers who are flouting the rules, you need to spot check each trucker perhaps 10x in a career. Or just check 100% of audit logs against payroll/taxes. Ghost drivers would show up as not being paid. The real drivers would have fewer hours logged than they’re getting paid for. No stops required.
    - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
      Cash throws a wrench into this.
      - pc86 4y ago
        Bitcoin fixes this /s
  - 83 4y ago
    They already have these inspections, though I don't know that they bother checking ELD stuff. Truck weigh stations are on almost every interstate near state lines where they check trucks coming into the state for compliance with weight/lighting/legal cargo/licensing/etc.
    - mistermegabyte 4y ago
      If you get inspected at a weigh station, they for sure are looking at that ELD records. Its probably the first thing they do. They don't automatically inspect you, only if you're overweight or if they see other problems such as vehicle safety issues, placards, etc. Once you are in the inspection process its a certainty that your hours will be looked at as well as every little safety and regulatory requirement.
- PragmaticPulp 4y ago
  > The audit logs can never show who was actually behind the wheel. You would compare the audit logs to the payroll logs. If someone is getting paid for hours that aren’t in the logs, it’s a clear violation. > The only fix is to have police on the highway randomly pulling over trucks, and checking that the driving license of the actual driver matches who the computer thinks is the driver. That wouldn’t even address the problem. The historical logs are being altered, not the current driver. If you pulled them over then the computer would have them shown as the driver. Definitely not that hard. Just audit payroll and driver logs to see if they match. The truck drivers aren’t driving extra hours for free.
  - jaywalk 4y ago
    Long-haul truckers are paid per mile, not per hour.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- disgruntledphd2 4y ago
  > The only fix is to have police on the highway randomly pulling over trucks, and checking that the driving license of the actual driver matches who the computer thinks is the driver. This is super, super common. Interestingly enough, if your federal scores (FMCSA ratings) drop too low, the police are obliged to stop the truck. Needless to say, this is not conducive to a prosperous future in trucking. More generally, this will keep happening until drivers start getting paid for their time at pickup/dropoff. Right now, the suppliers can basically just ignore the driver for as long as they want, as it doesn't cost them anything. The driver, however, is capped at 10 hours driving or 14 hours total, so they have to lie and pretend to sleep when at a destination. Truckers are basically where instant delivery meets the cold, hard realities of physical existence.
  - ok_dad 4y ago
    Can you imagine if software engineers were only paid for coding, and any other time we used to prepare for that task or deploy the code was unpaid? There would be buildings on fire in SF! For truckers, though, if you're not driving you're not being paid. So dumb.
    - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
      Can you imagine if there was some web forum where upper management types were talking about software developers the way we're talking about truckers in here? Federal licensing, lifetime industry ban for your second bug violation, video monitoring and keycard access, etc, etc. Imagine if the stuff that's being floated in here for truckers was instead being floated for us. It'd be like forcing your average CRUD developer to work in a SCIF. There would be an uproar. I hope nobody wonders why educated white collar professionals historically don't do too well at the hands of the lower classes when regimes change.
  - VBprogrammer 4y ago
    I don't know much about the American trucking industry but it seems like this problem is similar in the UK. Except often times, particularly in the South of England the businesses often don't have room for waiting trucks so expect drivers to turn up exactly on schedule with little leeway before and even less after their scheduled deliver slot. This can result in trucks effectively driving in circles to try to arrive at the correct time. If I was a owner of a trucking company I would be livid at the waste of employee, expensive capital asset (the truck), and fuel. I would definitely be tracking this behaviour from clients and factor that into quotes and contracts.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
Or at minimum, regular audits of log times in the driving system compared to compensation payouts. If drivers are only showing 200 hours in the logs but getting paid for 250 hours of driving, you know something has gone wrong.
- sparrish 4y ago
  Truckers get paid by miles, not hours.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Also people seem to be assuming the trucker is an employee of a trucking company. Sometimes, but often not, the trucker is technically a tiny little independent company even if dispatched by a central company and driving a truck painted brightly in that company's colors.
KennyBlanken 4y ago
The industry and drivers love ELDs because most cops can't be bothered. Before they could just say "show me your log" and they read down the page; now they have to fuss with memory cards or figuring out the UI of the control unit and they cannot be bothered. The laziness of the American policeman knows no bounds except when they think someone has drugs or cash on them.
- sumtechguy 4y ago
  When I was making these things in the late 90s that is exactly why the drivers loved them. And my software had an audit trail anyway (as required by the big green book). A fun game I used to play was 'how many log books do you have'. Lowest was 1, the guy was following the rules as best he could. Highest was 6, 1 for himself, 1 for his boss, and 1 for the cops. Not sure what the other 3 were for (he could not explain them).
  - bombcar 4y ago
    The other 3 were for wife and two mistresses; or if he was real spicy for three wives.
    - sumtechguy 4y ago
      considering I was at his wedding reception when I asked I sure hope not!
      - bombcar 4y ago
        I could also see one being for customers
- crote 4y ago
  European ELDs have an integrated printer. It is the driver's responsibility to ensure they have a supply of printer paper, and are able to create a printout on demand. Can't supply a freshly-made printout? Guess you're getting a fine!
morpheuskafka 4y ago
It sounds like the issue is that the software vendors are the ones doing this tampering. They are allowed to self-certify their products and presumably the DOT will treat whatever it shows on their system as valid. The article mentions that the FMCSA is investigating the companies and could eventually remove their certification from the program, making their software unusable.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  >companies and could eventually remove their certification from the program, making their software unusable. Create ELD company Get banned by the feds doing what your customers want you to do. Start shell company. Buy bankrup banned company using shell company. Re-brand your software to be for the shell company. Print money. Repeat. Short of north-korea type enforcement or rich western european attitudes toward complaince with the law (fat fucking chance of that considering who becomes truckers) the problem is probably gonna persist.

jetrink 4y ago

It also seems like it would come to light as soon as one of the trucks was involved in an accident. Checking the logs against who was operating the vehicle has to be one of the first things done during an investigation, if not by the regulator then by one of the involved insurance companies.

UncleEntity 4y ago
During the paper logs era that was the first thing they asked for because if they could prove the truck wasn’t able to be there legally their client wouldn’t have been able to slam in the back of it because they were texting. Not even kidding…

londons_explore 4y ago

The audit logs can never show who was actually behind the wheel. It will always be possible for someone to claim to be driving, while someone else was actually driving. The only fix is to have police on the highway randomly pulling over trucks, and checking that the driving license of the actual driver matches who the computer thinks is the driver. Anyone who is 'accidentally logged in as someone else' gets a warning... And if they are caught again, a lifetime commercial trucking ban.

londons_explore 4y ago
To catch the majority of truckers who are flouting the rules, you need to spot check each trucker perhaps 10x in a career. There are 3.5 million truckers in the USA, with typical career lengths of perhaps 30 years. So you need to inspect 3200 trucks/day. If an inspector takes 15 minutes to do an inspection (checking name, as well as visual roadworthiness checks), you need 100 inspectors. Or about 2 per state. As soon as word gets out that flouting these rules is career-ending, then the industry will probably mostly regulate itself. Seems pretty easy to solve this problem...
- disgruntledphd2 4y ago
  > As soon as word gets out that flouting these rules is career-ending, then the industry will probably mostly regulate itself. Seems pretty easy to solve this problem... This has already happened, there's a reason most trucking companies last less than 18 months.
- PragmaticPulp 4y ago
  > To catch the majority of truckers who are flouting the rules, you need to spot check each trucker perhaps 10x in a career. Or just check 100% of audit logs against payroll/taxes. Ghost drivers would show up as not being paid. The real drivers would have fewer hours logged than they’re getting paid for. No stops required.
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    Cash throws a wrench into this.
    - pc86 4y ago
      Bitcoin fixes this /s
- 83 4y ago
  They already have these inspections, though I don't know that they bother checking ELD stuff. Truck weigh stations are on almost every interstate near state lines where they check trucks coming into the state for compliance with weight/lighting/legal cargo/licensing/etc.
  - mistermegabyte 4y ago
    If you get inspected at a weigh station, they for sure are looking at that ELD records. Its probably the first thing they do. They don't automatically inspect you, only if you're overweight or if they see other problems such as vehicle safety issues, placards, etc. Once you are in the inspection process its a certainty that your hours will be looked at as well as every little safety and regulatory requirement.
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
> The audit logs can never show who was actually behind the wheel. You would compare the audit logs to the payroll logs. If someone is getting paid for hours that aren’t in the logs, it’s a clear violation. > The only fix is to have police on the highway randomly pulling over trucks, and checking that the driving license of the actual driver matches who the computer thinks is the driver. That wouldn’t even address the problem. The historical logs are being altered, not the current driver. If you pulled them over then the computer would have them shown as the driver. Definitely not that hard. Just audit payroll and driver logs to see if they match. The truck drivers aren’t driving extra hours for free.
- jaywalk 4y ago
  Long-haul truckers are paid per mile, not per hour.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
disgruntledphd2 4y ago
> The only fix is to have police on the highway randomly pulling over trucks, and checking that the driving license of the actual driver matches who the computer thinks is the driver. This is super, super common. Interestingly enough, if your federal scores (FMCSA ratings) drop too low, the police are obliged to stop the truck. Needless to say, this is not conducive to a prosperous future in trucking. More generally, this will keep happening until drivers start getting paid for their time at pickup/dropoff. Right now, the suppliers can basically just ignore the driver for as long as they want, as it doesn't cost them anything. The driver, however, is capped at 10 hours driving or 14 hours total, so they have to lie and pretend to sleep when at a destination. Truckers are basically where instant delivery meets the cold, hard realities of physical existence.
- ok_dad 4y ago
  Can you imagine if software engineers were only paid for coding, and any other time we used to prepare for that task or deploy the code was unpaid? There would be buildings on fire in SF! For truckers, though, if you're not driving you're not being paid. So dumb.
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    Can you imagine if there was some web forum where upper management types were talking about software developers the way we're talking about truckers in here? Federal licensing, lifetime industry ban for your second bug violation, video monitoring and keycard access, etc, etc. Imagine if the stuff that's being floated in here for truckers was instead being floated for us. It'd be like forcing your average CRUD developer to work in a SCIF. There would be an uproar. I hope nobody wonders why educated white collar professionals historically don't do too well at the hands of the lower classes when regimes change.
- VBprogrammer 4y ago
  I don't know much about the American trucking industry but it seems like this problem is similar in the UK. Except often times, particularly in the South of England the businesses often don't have room for waiting trucks so expect drivers to turn up exactly on schedule with little leeway before and even less after their scheduled deliver slot. This can result in trucks effectively driving in circles to try to arrive at the correct time. If I was a owner of a trucking company I would be livid at the waste of employee, expensive capital asset (the truck), and fuel. I would definitely be tracking this behaviour from clients and factor that into quotes and contracts.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

Or at minimum, regular audits of log times in the driving system compared to compensation payouts. If drivers are only showing 200 hours in the logs but getting paid for 250 hours of driving, you know something has gone wrong.

sparrish 4y ago
Truckers get paid by miles, not hours.
- bombcar 4y ago
  Also people seem to be assuming the trucker is an employee of a trucking company. Sometimes, but often not, the trucker is technically a tiny little independent company even if dispatched by a central company and driving a truck painted brightly in that company's colors.

KennyBlanken 4y ago

The industry and drivers love ELDs because most cops can't be bothered. Before they could just say "show me your log" and they read down the page; now they have to fuss with memory cards or figuring out the UI of the control unit and they cannot be bothered. The laziness of the American policeman knows no bounds except when they think someone has drugs or cash on them.

sumtechguy 4y ago
When I was making these things in the late 90s that is exactly why the drivers loved them. And my software had an audit trail anyway (as required by the big green book). A fun game I used to play was 'how many log books do you have'. Lowest was 1, the guy was following the rules as best he could. Highest was 6, 1 for himself, 1 for his boss, and 1 for the cops. Not sure what the other 3 were for (he could not explain them).
- bombcar 4y ago
  The other 3 were for wife and two mistresses; or if he was real spicy for three wives.
  - sumtechguy 4y ago
    considering I was at his wedding reception when I asked I sure hope not!
    - bombcar 4y ago
      I could also see one being for customers
crote 4y ago
European ELDs have an integrated printer. It is the driver's responsibility to ensure they have a supply of printer paper, and are able to create a printout on demand. Can't supply a freshly-made printout? Guess you're getting a fine!

morpheuskafka 4y ago

It sounds like the issue is that the software vendors are the ones doing this tampering. They are allowed to self-certify their products and presumably the DOT will treat whatever it shows on their system as valid. The article mentions that the FMCSA is investigating the companies and could eventually remove their certification from the program, making their software unusable.

dsfyu404ed 4y ago
>companies and could eventually remove their certification from the program, making their software unusable. Create ELD company Get banned by the feds doing what your customers want you to do. Start shell company. Buy bankrup banned company using shell company. Re-brand your software to be for the shell company. Print money. Repeat. Short of north-korea type enforcement or rich western european attitudes toward complaince with the law (fat fucking chance of that considering who becomes truckers) the problem is probably gonna persist.