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Video shows ‘ghost co-driver’ added to trucker’s ELD to skirt HOS rules
- Palomides 4y agothis seems like a situation where audit logs would make regular tampering extremely obvious? is there just no oversight?
- jetrink 4y agoIt also seems like it would come to light as soon as one of the trucks was involved in an accident. Checking the logs against who was operating the vehicle has to be one of the first things done during an investigation, if not by the regulator then by one of the involved insurance companies.
- UncleEntity 4y agoDuring the paper logs era that was the first thing they asked for because if they could prove the truck wasn’t able to be there legally their client wouldn’t have been able to slam in the back of it because they were texting. Not even kidding…
- londons_explore 4y agoThe audit logs can never show who was actually behind the wheel. It will always be possible for someone to claim to be driving, while someone else was actually driving. The only fix is to have police on the highway randomly pulling over trucks, and checking that the driving license of the actual driver matches who the computer thinks is the driver. Anyone who is 'accidentally logged in as someone else' gets a warning... And if they are caught again, a lifetime commercial trucking ban.
- londons_explore 4y agoTo catch the majority of truckers who are flouting the rules, you need to spot check each trucker perhaps 10x in a career. There are 3.5 million truckers in the USA, with typical career lengths of perhaps 30 years. So you need to inspect 3200 trucks/day. If an inspector takes 15 minutes to do an inspection (checking name, as well as visual roadworthiness checks), you need 100 inspectors. Or about 2 per state. As soon as word gets out that flouting these rules is career-ending, then the industry will probably mostly regulate itself. Seems pretty easy to solve this problem...
- disgruntledphd2 4y ago> As soon as word gets out that flouting these rules is career-ending, then the industry will probably mostly regulate itself. Seems pretty easy to solve this problem... This has already happened, there's a reason most trucking companies last less than 18 months.
- PragmaticPulp 4y ago> To catch the majority of truckers who are flouting the rules, you need to spot check each trucker perhaps 10x in a career. Or just check 100% of audit logs against payroll/taxes. Ghost drivers would show up as not being paid. The real drivers would have fewer hours logged than they’re getting paid for. No stops required.
- dsfyu404ed 4y agoCash throws a wrench into this.
- pc86 4y agoBitcoin fixes this /s
- 83 4y agoThey already have these inspections, though I don't know that they bother checking ELD stuff. Truck weigh stations are on almost every interstate near state lines where they check trucks coming into the state for compliance with weight/lighting/legal cargo/licensing/etc.
- mistermegabyte 4y agoIf you get inspected at a weigh station, they for sure are looking at that ELD records. Its probably the first thing they do. They don't automatically inspect you, only if you're overweight or if they see other problems such as vehicle safety issues, placards, etc. Once you are in the inspection process its a certainty that your hours will be looked at as well as every little safety and regulatory requirement.
- PragmaticPulp 4y ago> The audit logs can never show who was actually behind the wheel. You would compare the audit logs to the payroll logs. If someone is getting paid for hours that aren’t in the logs, it’s a clear violation. > The only fix is to have police on the highway randomly pulling over trucks, and checking that the driving license of the actual driver matches who the computer thinks is the driver. That wouldn’t even address the problem. The historical logs are being altered, not the current driver. If you pulled them over then the computer would have them shown as the driver. Definitely not that hard. Just audit payroll and driver logs to see if they match. The truck drivers aren’t driving extra hours for free.
- jaywalk 4y agoLong-haul truckers are paid per mile, not per hour.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- disgruntledphd2 4y ago> The only fix is to have police on the highway randomly pulling over trucks, and checking that the driving license of the actual driver matches who the computer thinks is the driver. This is super, super common. Interestingly enough, if your federal scores (FMCSA ratings) drop too low, the police are obliged to stop the truck. Needless to say, this is not conducive to a prosperous future in trucking. More generally, this will keep happening until drivers start getting paid for their time at pickup/dropoff. Right now, the suppliers can basically just ignore the driver for as long as they want, as it doesn't cost them anything. The driver, however, is capped at 10 hours driving or 14 hours total, so they have to lie and pretend to sleep when at a destination. Truckers are basically where instant delivery meets the cold, hard realities of physical existence.
- ok_dad 4y agoCan you imagine if software engineers were only paid for coding, and any other time we used to prepare for that task or deploy the code was unpaid? There would be buildings on fire in SF! For truckers, though, if you're not driving you're not being paid. So dumb.
- dsfyu404ed 4y agoCan you imagine if there was some web forum where upper management types were talking about software developers the way we're talking about truckers in here? Federal licensing, lifetime industry ban for your second bug violation, video monitoring and keycard access, etc, etc. Imagine if the stuff that's being floated in here for truckers was instead being floated for us. It'd be like forcing your average CRUD developer to work in a SCIF. There would be an uproar. I hope nobody wonders why educated white collar professionals historically don't do too well at the hands of the lower classes when regimes change.
- VBprogrammer 4y agoI don't know much about the American trucking industry but it seems like this problem is similar in the UK. Except often times, particularly in the South of England the businesses often don't have room for waiting trucks so expect drivers to turn up exactly on schedule with little leeway before and even less after their scheduled deliver slot. This can result in trucks effectively driving in circles to try to arrive at the correct time. If I was a owner of a trucking company I would be livid at the waste of employee, expensive capital asset (the truck), and fuel. I would definitely be tracking this behaviour from clients and factor that into quotes and contracts.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- PragmaticPulp 4y agoOr at minimum, regular audits of log times in the driving system compared to compensation payouts. If drivers are only showing 200 hours in the logs but getting paid for 250 hours of driving, you know something has gone wrong.
- sparrish 4y agoTruckers get paid by miles, not hours.
- bombcar 4y agoAlso people seem to be assuming the trucker is an employee of a trucking company. Sometimes, but often not, the trucker is technically a tiny little independent company even if dispatched by a central company and driving a truck painted brightly in that company's colors.
- KennyBlanken 4y agoThe industry and drivers love ELDs because most cops can't be bothered. Before they could just say "show me your log" and they read down the page; now they have to fuss with memory cards or figuring out the UI of the control unit and they cannot be bothered. The laziness of the American policeman knows no bounds except when they think someone has drugs or cash on them.
- sumtechguy 4y agoWhen I was making these things in the late 90s that is exactly why the drivers loved them. And my software had an audit trail anyway (as required by the big green book). A fun game I used to play was 'how many log books do you have'. Lowest was 1, the guy was following the rules as best he could. Highest was 6, 1 for himself, 1 for his boss, and 1 for the cops. Not sure what the other 3 were for (he could not explain them).
- bombcar 4y agoThe other 3 were for wife and two mistresses; or if he was real spicy for three wives.
- sumtechguy 4y agoconsidering I was at his wedding reception when I asked I sure hope not!
- bombcar 4y agoI could also see one being for customers
- crote 4y agoEuropean ELDs have an integrated printer. It is the driver's responsibility to ensure they have a supply of printer paper, and are able to create a printout on demand. Can't supply a freshly-made printout? Guess you're getting a fine!
- morpheuskafka 4y agoIt sounds like the issue is that the software vendors are the ones doing this tampering. They are allowed to self-certify their products and presumably the DOT will treat whatever it shows on their system as valid. The article mentions that the FMCSA is investigating the companies and could eventually remove their certification from the program, making their software unusable.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago>companies and could eventually remove their certification from the program, making their software unusable. Create ELD company Get banned by the feds doing what your customers want you to do. Start shell company. Buy bankrup banned company using shell company. Re-brand your software to be for the shell company. Print money. Repeat. Short of north-korea type enforcement or rich western european attitudes toward complaince with the law (fat fucking chance of that considering who becomes truckers) the problem is probably gonna persist.
- mikestew 4y agoThe TL;DR of that acronym soup is a story as old as the paper log books drivers used to use: log books are being faked, only instead of paper the software vendor apparently will fake your software log book for you.
- sokoloff 4y agoThose paper log books were commonly referred to as "comic books" referencing the (lack of) tight coherence the data entered there had with reality.
- bombcar 4y agoAnd there were/are often two or more in the truck. A system that cannot be cheated can also not be corrected, and even then people will discover ways to cheat it if they want to.
- jollyllama 4y agoYep, practices such as this have even been memorialized in song lyrics ex. Six Days on the Road.
- mistermegabyte 4y agoIt all depends on the vendor. The software that our company uses is totally locked down and it would be very difficult or impossible to run a ghost driver on it (I'm a local city driver, BTW, and Hours of Service rules apply to me also). Our software is tied to the time clock so when we physically punch in, the clock starts regardless on if we are logged in to the ELD tablet or not. It's still keeping track though.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- PragmaticPulp 4y agoThis story is difficult to read as an industry outsider. Unless I’ve misread something, it reads like the driver management company is able to edit the logs in the software to alter driver history, allowing them to exceed drive time safety limits. I can’t see any way this could happen without clear intent to break the laws. It’s also strange that it’s being done in a way that is plainly obvious to the trucker.
- gonehome 4y agoI think the truckers often want to drive longer than they’re legally allowed.
- mikeyouse 4y agoYep. Every time a truck is parked, that trucker is away from home and also not making money. They almost universally hate the limits. Of course it's also in the collective best interest to not have massive trucks with tens of thousands of lbs of cargo driven by exhausted drivers.
- gonehome 4y agoYeah, the restrictions make sense for society but the truckers (annd trucking companies) aren’t the ones that want them.
- version_five 4y agoI agree there have to be restrictions, the idea of speed popping truckers driving for days without sleep is not good for anyone. My guess though, call me cynical, is that bigger companies pushed for these rules. They help push our smaller players who are more burdened by paperwork and compliance. The source of most industry regulation like this is a desired barrier to entry.
- markstos 4y agoAren’t truckers often paid by the mile and not the hour, incentivizing minimal rest?
- mkmk 4y agoELD stands for 'Electronic Logging Device'
- BurningFrog 4y agoThe human driver time limits (real as well as regulatory) is why trucking will be enormously improved by self driving trucks, who can drive 24/7
- AlexandrB 4y agoThe cynic in me sees this turning out kind of like precision scheduled railroading, where truckers will either be on call 24/7 for doing the last mile of driving or they'll be in the truck but not getting paid while the AI is driving and will have to take over at the last mile and only get paid for that segment.
- bshipp 4y agoAs a former truck driver, I just can't see the government or insurance companies allowing self-driving 80,000lb trucks on a highway that also contains passenger-carrying automobiles. The liability is tremendous and it will take a decade or more of safe operation before those rules are relaxed. I'd anything, a trucker will end up leading a self-driving convoy of another unit on the interstate, but I'd imagine it's simply easier to add additional trailers like we've done in Ontario. I envision truckers being legally responsible for their AI and it operating the vehicle similar to autopilot in an aircraft. Never autonomous, only a driving aid.
- BurningFrog 4y agoSelf driving highway trucks ending their trip at a collection point where human drivers take over makes a lot of sense. No one would take the job of sitting unpaid in a truck all day, so that will never happen.
- exabrial 4y agoEveryone here is jumping to technical solutions... it's far easier to fix this on the business side: Drivers are paid per mile. There's an incentive to break the law. So... maybe start by outlawing a practice that incentivizes breaking the law and we wouldn't have these issues.
- crote 4y agoThe interesting thing is that a technical solution already exists as has been in use in Europe for decades. Each driver has a single unique physical "driver card" which needs to be inserted into a tamper-proof recording device in the vehicle. Driving hours are recorded both on the driver card, and on the vehicle-bound recording device. Want to use two drivers in a shift? Well, you gotta put it on dual-driver mode and insert both cards. Good luck trying to explain where your ghost driver is when you get pulled over for a random check. It seems ELD Rider is just a random Android app instead. No wonder people are committing fraud with it - there's no way to ensure the accuracy of that!
- exabrial 4y ago> tamper-proof recording device in the vehicle Physical access dominates, every single time.
- TheCapn 4y agoTamper proof seals? In my line of work we use Scale Indicators that are calibrated by Weights & Measures Canada. Once the audit is completed the unit is sealed with a destructible seal and record of inspection is recorded. If that seal is ever tampered with by someone not authorized to do so there are big fines. So yeah, it would be easy for us to snap those seals and drop custom programs into the indicators all day every day. There's also stupid-obvious methods to prevent tampering.
- exabrial 4y agoTamper seals are enh. I uh… well Hey here’s a YouTube video on it: https://youtu.be/xUJtqvYDnkg https://youtu.be/xUJtqvYDnkg And let’s not even discuss software exploits
- noodlesUK 4y agoI feel like this is a situation where the issues are both technical and political. If the system were technically designed correctly, they would need to put down verifiable details for who the other driver who allegedly drove the truck. This would be easily detectable, as a driver can't be in two places at once etc. The other solution as one of the other commenters mentioned is essentially a physical tamper evident key that gets inserted into the recorder. Without a second key, there would be no way to operate the truck. The other issue here is that it seems that the truck companies are given too much latitude to run their own monitoring systems. The monitoring should be done by/through an entity that is incentivised to detect violations rather than cover them up.
- bjt2n3904 4y agoOh HN, how predictable you are. "You know what trucking really needs? Stricter solutions and harsher punishments! DRM in vehicles, so the government can electronically disable a car to prevent truckers from driving beyond the number of hours we agreed on! And lifetime trucking bans for trying to evade it!" You keep going down this route, and you'll suddenly find yourself in a totalitarian society where breathing requires an X.509 cert.
- jiminymcmoogley 4y agoI am generally on team freedom but right now shitty drivers are a bigger threat to that than the breathing police
- celeritascelery 4y agoI thought this story was going to be about someone adding a dummy to the passenger seat to get into the HOV lane…
- xwdv 4y agoWhy are people messing with truckers? Truckers have it very rough right now, they want to drive, just let them work. Without truckers, America grinds to a halt.
- blamazon 4y agoIf by 'mess with' you mean 'regulate', is a kinetic energy based approach to safety a good enough of a reason? My worldview: The average truck in America is perhaps 32 times as heavy as the average automobile. That means they carry 32 times as much energy at the same speeds, and deserve 32 times as much scrutiny for their behavior on public roads. Much the same way I believe car drivers deserve 6-7 times as much scrutiny as bicyclists, and again bicyclists perhaps twice as much scrutiny as pedestrians. Scaling this up, I would invite you to think of a similar scenario with rest rules on plane and train operators being broken, and see how you feel about being a passenger on one of those. Are those rules harassing pilots? Air travel is booming! Pilots want to fly! Let them fly!
- karpierz 4y agoThere's a great book that came out recently covering in detail the various ways that truckers and trucking companies bypass the pervasive surveillance and regulation: Data Driven
- UncleEntity 4y ago> …had no drive time left on his clock and only 12 hours remaining on his 70-hour cycle before he was required by federal law to take a 34-hour reset. Umm, no. They just had to take a 10 hour break and/or wait until midnight to get more driving hours. The only time you have to take a 34 hour break is if you burn out your hours because you either know you’re going to take a break (like going home) or you’re really bad at time management. You can run indefinitely if you manage your hours properly. A couple times I had to perfectly time my start time so I would both run out of hours and get hours back at midnight to make it to the receiver 15 minutes late. Fun all around. —edit— Downvoters, tell me how I’m wrong.
- renewiltord 4y agoThe lack of accidents given widespread book-cooking here implies that the true level of safety is not where the current laws have been placed. Of course, one must account for additional violation if one were to put the safety limits closer to true safety limits, but perhaps the answer is that we're lying to ourselves about what the safety limits should be.
- lazyasciiart 4y agoTrucks make up ~4% of vehicles on the road, 6-7% of vehicle miles driven in the US, and 10% of vehicles involved in fatal accidents. The deaths in those accidents are almost always the occupants of the other vehicle. So it's not at all clear that we are being too restrictive on safety limits here.
- dsfyu404ed 4y agoTrucks weigh a lot. The penalty for fucking around them is stiff. No surprise their involvement leads to more deaths. My understanding is that class 6/7/8 trucks only cause a tiny fraction of the crashes they're involved in. That's why they get so pissy when people who work in offices tell them they're the ones who have to suffer more regulation in the name of safety. Citing states like % of fatal accidents doesn't mean much unless you know the accident has anything to do with something we regulate. No amount of sleep is going to stop someone from texting and driving nor will it change the physics of what happens when a 4k sedan rear ends 80k of truck.
- lazyasciiart 4y agoTheir argument was not that we can't regulate accidents away, but that it doesn't matter if truck drivers ignore regulations because they aren't having enough accidents to worry about. That's not true.
- mrguyorama 4y agoWhat lack of accidents? These truckers crash every day.
- Mandatum 4y agoSeems like WORM drives, and EU/gov-operated cloud logging services should be a good mechanism for this. If you get audited, they check your vehicle against cloud logs - if they aren't present, they request your WORM drive backup (a 3TB drive would last beyond the lifetime of a vehicle). If you can't produce the backup log, your employer is fined.