8 ms·

I'm a father of teen kids, teacher and educator. I don't think that there is a single reason here. All mentioned things contribute – social media pressure, clim

I'm a father of teen kids, teacher and educator. I don't think that there is a single reason here. All mentioned things contribute – social media pressure, climate problems, economical crisis etc. But I'd like to add another one – declining quality of education. I see increasing number of teens depressed because they don't have teachers and their education isn't good enough for jobs they'd like to get in future. And at least some of them are certainly right: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32539424 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32539424

Xeoncross 4y ago
Yeah, The US education system seems to have more money than most countries, but we're still 37th in the world for in Math last I checked. Whatever is happening in public schools, you'd do well to increase your child's odds by putting them into something else if you can afford it. Private school, tutoring, homeschooling, college (dual-enrollment), etc..
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  Middle class and above kids still do as well in math in public schools as they do in private schools. The problem is that students from more disadvantaged backgrounds don't do as well, and its not like they can afford private schools anyways.
  - synergy20 4y ago
    I grew up poor, it has nothing to do with private school to me at all, it's all about struggling parents still convinced their kids to do their best, and put education first as a family group effort. most of the poor here still is relatively much better off than those from under-developed countries, plus our school provides free lunch, many programs will waive fees if you're economically disadvantaged, etc. It's not as good as those well-off families but it's really good enough for you to do fine in education. I saw so many economically challenged kids carrying new iphones, dressed well, yet not really into learning at schools, it's certainly not just an economic problem.
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
      > most of the poor here still is relatively much better off than those from under-developed countries Education wise, middle class in a developing or under developed country will still beat poor in a developed country even if the latter have more money than the former. Culture has a lot to do with it, a lot has to do with the latter's parents not teaching current parents the same thing that the former's were taught. Home situation is much of the problem, and you can't just throw money at the problem, unfortunately. European countries might do a better job at this by either (a) having less poor people (immigrants) or (b) putting in more resources to ensure that these kids get more support at home and in school to make up for their disadvantage. But often, you'll find in European countries that they have the same problems with kids from disadvantaged background being behind middle class kids, they just work at solving the problem better than we do in the states.
      - synergy20 4y ago
        I also observed there are many economically disadvantaged parents driving their kids to charter schools for better education, that made a huge difference, as their home campus is filled with lots of students that are not that into education. point is family might be the key for success, more than private-school or giving-more-money,etc.
grog454 4y ago
One of the most important things we can teach kids today is how to teach themselves. I wouldn't have graduated college over a decade ago without Wikipedia and there are far better resources now.
leftareanimals 4y ago
[dead]
falteringfalcon 4y ago
[dead]
lordnacho 4y ago
Did that start in 2010, across several countries?
lsllc 4y ago
I'm not sure you can blame problems such as climate change, economic issues -- every generation had its own existential crisis: WW2, Korea, Vietnam, numerous recessions and until 1990, recent generations lived under the specter of the atom bomb. I think it's social media, that's what's really changed: Every single teenager is now comparing themselves against every other kid in the world instead of just their local peers (and maybe a few grainy MTV stars over 525 scan lines). And of course the "popular" ones they're comparing to are the most successful, most good-looking, most privileged i.e. the most "perfect" ones (because that's how they got to be the most popular). It's a terrible yardstick for anyone to measure themselves against, let along impressionable young minds.
- carimura 4y ago
  this 100x. And in the young brain, every single person looks amazing because that's how everyone is posturing constantly. Image filters can even literally make someone better looking. It's basically an arms race to 0 on who can posture the best.
- TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
  I think social media - which is not so much about media but about performative competition - is just part of the problem. Reality for kids seems so much more competitive and ruthless in every way. And there are so few resources available to them to help them deal with it. At the same time opportunities are shrinking and pressure to perform is increasing. It's not enough to be adequate, you have to be outstanding in looks, talent, ability, work ethic, party ethic, lifestyle, income, and education. But you can't be. Because you're not competing with a small group of relative peers, you're competing with the entire online world. At the same time there's incoming doom in the form of climate change, Covid mismanagement, outrageous and crippling economic inequality, various wars, and now the threat of AI. It would be strange if kids weren't getting depressed under these circumstances.
  - adhesive_wombat 4y ago
    > you're competing with the entire online world. It's actually even worse than that: you're competing separately in each field, in parallel. But you only see the others in the context of that which they are good at, which is why you see them in that space in the first place.
WalterBright 4y ago
There's also been a corresponding dramatic drop in the number of teens who have had any sort of job. Not many things are as fulfilling as doing a job and getting paid for it. I remember when I realized I was making enough money that I could pay all my bills and no longer needed anything from my dad. It felt really good. For me that was the dividing line between being a child and an adult.
- TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
  Kids today can have two or even three jobs and still not earn enough to pay the rent on a place of their own.
  - gspencley 4y ago
    That and there are also fewer jobs available to teens / young adults. The types of jobs that we are making obsolete, whether through automation or regulation, are the types of repetitive, "unskilled" jobs that were previously offered to people just starting out. I'll take a chance on my 16 year-old nephew if I can pay him $5 / hour but if I have to pay him $15 / hour by law I'd rather have someone with more references. I'm also likely to ask that person to take on more responsibility, too, since my overhead just went up and my margins were paper thin to begin with. So now I need someone with additional experience.
    - lordnacho 4y ago
      Or you get an unskilled immigrant who has his back against the wall. I read an article claiming this is where teen jobs went, not sure how well supported it is.
      - voakbasda 4y ago
        It is an well-known secret that the largest and most successful farm in my area extensively uses illegal immigrants for labor. They say that citizens are too unreliable and unproductive for them to be profitable.
sacnoradhq 4y ago
I have potentially a bazillion questions: 0. How do kids socialize without devices these days? 1a-b. Do they meet new people like them and/or unlike them? 2. Do they go outside and explore the world nearby? 3a-b. Do they get in the same or different kinds of trouble as past generations of kids? 4a-d. What are the fundamental social values they share that differ from 1-4 generations ago? 5a-c. Do they have as much curiosity, work ethic, or resiliency to setbacks? Here's my neon fuchsia fanny-pack, old personitis for reference: When I was a kid, I had to wake up at 5:45 am to get ready to walk 1.3 mi (2 km) to a school bus stop when there was a perfectly good school 0.25 mi away. (Supposedly, I was denied a slot due to race-integration busing but I attribute it to paranoid parents rationalizing their lack of resolve.) The bus ride was 90 minutes each way for 3 hours total, depending on traffic. It was a magnet school where there were many kids from broken homes, abuse, poverty, undocumented parents hanging on, and situations adjacent to drug gangs. The non-IEP classroom material was too slow for me and I was often bored. The turnover of teachers was about 50%/year. Many substitute teachers. There were bullies, girls who behaved in age-inappropriate manners, carved graffiti-encased desks, and mountains of scantrons and dittos (spirit duplicator). No school uniforms, but gang colors and teen pregnancy were omnipresent concerns. Hardcover textbooks were worn to where bindings had saggy wrinkles. No computers and no cell phones.
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  I can answer a some those. Have family members who are teachers, friends who work with youth, etc and this whole thing comes up a lot. I've used your numbering system to organize answers. 2. Less than previous generations. There's simply far less places that will let kids just hang out. Until a certain age its likely CPS will be called and police will be involved if your kids are out exploring, and after that age said kids hanging out is deemed antisocial and undesirable... So private security or the police hassle them. 3a-b: some the same, some different. Underage drinking/smoking/fucking is down, illicit drug use is down somewhat, but smoking's been replaced by vapes, and the drugs are different - often pharmaceuticals (real or counterfeit) such as xanax, etc. Actual antisocial behavior is way down, but perceived antisocial behavior is up. Behaviours that previously were deemed largely benign (kids hanging out) are deemed unwanted. As per answer 2. 4a-d: the kids tend to be significantly more "tolerant" than previous generations. Make of that what you will. 5a-c: yes? They are still curious as all fuck, but work ethic is a funny animal. Most traditional avenues for teenagers to "work" (outside of academics) are being closed off due to labour rules, liability, etc. So a lot of younger people try make money online, have some kind of hustle. This ranges across the board of legality, morality, etc. Be it flipping clothes on Depop, dubious schemes involving dropshipping or selling knockoff designer gear online, selling artwork/crafts, trying to become an influencer/streamer/whatever... There's massive pressure to try monetize any hobby. Resilience? Its teenagers. Some are hard as nails, some are drips.
seydor 4y ago
Out of those i m trying to understand climate problems. They dont affect daily life in a visible way. Climate anxiety however has become a thing because of too much media fixation around it. It s so prevalent that some psychologists think it should be classified as a disease
wrp 4y ago
> ...declining quality of education. I'd like to add some nuance to this. While student performance seems to be clearly declining (at least at the college level, which I'm familiar with), I don't know how well we can distinguish the contributions of poor teaching and poor student preparedness. I'll give a concrete example from South Korea. For several years, the English proficiency of incoming university students was so high, there was serious talk of closing English language programs as no longer needed. Within the last few years though, student ability levels have plummeted, requiring drastic dumbing-down of the curriculum at the school where I work. I know many Korean primary, secondary, and college teachers, and I don't think the decline in student achievement is due to their slacking off. It seems to be due to something going on in society outside the schools.
another_story 4y ago
As a longtime educator, I see a lot of experienced teachers leaving. In fact, I'm leaving this year, though I'm unsure if it's permanent. It's a mixture of reasons, from low pay to high demands, but I think a large part is a lack of respect from students, parents and admin. Teachers have been stripped of most of their power to do anything about it. The last year I taught public school a student was verbally abusing others and threatening them in class and I couldn't get him removed. It ruined the class and scared other students, but because he had documented issues they said they couldn't do anything. I teach in overseas private schools now, and the kids are fantastic and the pay is decent, but the job has an increasing amount of non-teaching related stuff which detracts from the what matters, the kids. Also, the syllabus for CS is so outdated, and I find myself apologizing to the kids since I need to to teach it to them for their exams. I teach around the syllabus as best I can, but you still need to get results. TLDR: Experienced teachers leaving, lack of autonomy, curriculum suck
tennisflyi 4y ago
Not sure it's about education. Ladders seem pulled higher and sending your resume to the ether and the dog and pony show that is interviewing...

Xeoncross 4y ago

Yeah, The US education system seems to have more money than most countries, but we're still 37th in the world for in Math last I checked. Whatever is happening in public schools, you'd do well to increase your child's odds by putting them into something else if you can afford it. Private school, tutoring, homeschooling, college (dual-enrollment), etc..

seanmcdirmid 4y ago
Middle class and above kids still do as well in math in public schools as they do in private schools. The problem is that students from more disadvantaged backgrounds don't do as well, and its not like they can afford private schools anyways.
- synergy20 4y ago
  I grew up poor, it has nothing to do with private school to me at all, it's all about struggling parents still convinced their kids to do their best, and put education first as a family group effort. most of the poor here still is relatively much better off than those from under-developed countries, plus our school provides free lunch, many programs will waive fees if you're economically disadvantaged, etc. It's not as good as those well-off families but it's really good enough for you to do fine in education. I saw so many economically challenged kids carrying new iphones, dressed well, yet not really into learning at schools, it's certainly not just an economic problem.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    > most of the poor here still is relatively much better off than those from under-developed countries Education wise, middle class in a developing or under developed country will still beat poor in a developed country even if the latter have more money than the former. Culture has a lot to do with it, a lot has to do with the latter's parents not teaching current parents the same thing that the former's were taught. Home situation is much of the problem, and you can't just throw money at the problem, unfortunately. European countries might do a better job at this by either (a) having less poor people (immigrants) or (b) putting in more resources to ensure that these kids get more support at home and in school to make up for their disadvantage. But often, you'll find in European countries that they have the same problems with kids from disadvantaged background being behind middle class kids, they just work at solving the problem better than we do in the states.
    - synergy20 4y ago
      I also observed there are many economically disadvantaged parents driving their kids to charter schools for better education, that made a huge difference, as their home campus is filled with lots of students that are not that into education. point is family might be the key for success, more than private-school or giving-more-money,etc.

grog454 4y ago

One of the most important things we can teach kids today is how to teach themselves. I wouldn't have graduated college over a decade ago without Wikipedia and there are far better resources now.

leftareanimals 4y ago

[dead]

falteringfalcon 4y ago

[dead]

lordnacho 4y ago

Did that start in 2010, across several countries?

lsllc 4y ago

I'm not sure you can blame problems such as climate change, economic issues -- every generation had its own existential crisis: WW2, Korea, Vietnam, numerous recessions and until 1990, recent generations lived under the specter of the atom bomb. I think it's social media, that's what's really changed: Every single teenager is now comparing themselves against every other kid in the world instead of just their local peers (and maybe a few grainy MTV stars over 525 scan lines). And of course the "popular" ones they're comparing to are the most successful, most good-looking, most privileged i.e. the most "perfect" ones (because that's how they got to be the most popular). It's a terrible yardstick for anyone to measure themselves against, let along impressionable young minds.

carimura 4y ago
this 100x. And in the young brain, every single person looks amazing because that's how everyone is posturing constantly. Image filters can even literally make someone better looking. It's basically an arms race to 0 on who can posture the best.
TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
I think social media - which is not so much about media but about performative competition - is just part of the problem. Reality for kids seems so much more competitive and ruthless in every way. And there are so few resources available to them to help them deal with it. At the same time opportunities are shrinking and pressure to perform is increasing. It's not enough to be adequate, you have to be outstanding in looks, talent, ability, work ethic, party ethic, lifestyle, income, and education. But you can't be. Because you're not competing with a small group of relative peers, you're competing with the entire online world. At the same time there's incoming doom in the form of climate change, Covid mismanagement, outrageous and crippling economic inequality, various wars, and now the threat of AI. It would be strange if kids weren't getting depressed under these circumstances.
- adhesive_wombat 4y ago
  > you're competing with the entire online world. It's actually even worse than that: you're competing separately in each field, in parallel. But you only see the others in the context of that which they are good at, which is why you see them in that space in the first place.

WalterBright 4y ago

There's also been a corresponding dramatic drop in the number of teens who have had any sort of job. Not many things are as fulfilling as doing a job and getting paid for it. I remember when I realized I was making enough money that I could pay all my bills and no longer needed anything from my dad. It felt really good. For me that was the dividing line between being a child and an adult.

TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
Kids today can have two or even three jobs and still not earn enough to pay the rent on a place of their own.
- gspencley 4y ago
  That and there are also fewer jobs available to teens / young adults. The types of jobs that we are making obsolete, whether through automation or regulation, are the types of repetitive, "unskilled" jobs that were previously offered to people just starting out. I'll take a chance on my 16 year-old nephew if I can pay him $5 / hour but if I have to pay him $15 / hour by law I'd rather have someone with more references. I'm also likely to ask that person to take on more responsibility, too, since my overhead just went up and my margins were paper thin to begin with. So now I need someone with additional experience.
  - lordnacho 4y ago
    Or you get an unskilled immigrant who has his back against the wall. I read an article claiming this is where teen jobs went, not sure how well supported it is.
    - voakbasda 4y ago
      It is an well-known secret that the largest and most successful farm in my area extensively uses illegal immigrants for labor. They say that citizens are too unreliable and unproductive for them to be profitable.

sacnoradhq 4y ago

I have potentially a bazillion questions: 0. How do kids socialize without devices these days? 1a-b. Do they meet new people like them and/or unlike them? 2. Do they go outside and explore the world nearby? 3a-b. Do they get in the same or different kinds of trouble as past generations of kids? 4a-d. What are the fundamental social values they share that differ from 1-4 generations ago? 5a-c. Do they have as much curiosity, work ethic, or resiliency to setbacks? Here's my neon fuchsia fanny-pack, old personitis for reference: When I was a kid, I had to wake up at 5:45 am to get ready to walk 1.3 mi (2 km) to a school bus stop when there was a perfectly good school 0.25 mi away. (Supposedly, I was denied a slot due to race-integration busing but I attribute it to paranoid parents rationalizing their lack of resolve.) The bus ride was 90 minutes each way for 3 hours total, depending on traffic. It was a magnet school where there were many kids from broken homes, abuse, poverty, undocumented parents hanging on, and situations adjacent to drug gangs. The non-IEP classroom material was too slow for me and I was often bored. The turnover of teachers was about 50%/year. Many substitute teachers. There were bullies, girls who behaved in age-inappropriate manners, carved graffiti-encased desks, and mountains of scantrons and dittos (spirit duplicator). No school uniforms, but gang colors and teen pregnancy were omnipresent concerns. Hardcover textbooks were worn to where bindings had saggy wrinkles. No computers and no cell phones.

nibbleshifter 4y ago
I can answer a some those. Have family members who are teachers, friends who work with youth, etc and this whole thing comes up a lot. I've used your numbering system to organize answers. 2. Less than previous generations. There's simply far less places that will let kids just hang out. Until a certain age its likely CPS will be called and police will be involved if your kids are out exploring, and after that age said kids hanging out is deemed antisocial and undesirable... So private security or the police hassle them. 3a-b: some the same, some different. Underage drinking/smoking/fucking is down, illicit drug use is down somewhat, but smoking's been replaced by vapes, and the drugs are different - often pharmaceuticals (real or counterfeit) such as xanax, etc. Actual antisocial behavior is way down, but perceived antisocial behavior is up. Behaviours that previously were deemed largely benign (kids hanging out) are deemed unwanted. As per answer 2. 4a-d: the kids tend to be significantly more "tolerant" than previous generations. Make of that what you will. 5a-c: yes? They are still curious as all fuck, but work ethic is a funny animal. Most traditional avenues for teenagers to "work" (outside of academics) are being closed off due to labour rules, liability, etc. So a lot of younger people try make money online, have some kind of hustle. This ranges across the board of legality, morality, etc. Be it flipping clothes on Depop, dubious schemes involving dropshipping or selling knockoff designer gear online, selling artwork/crafts, trying to become an influencer/streamer/whatever... There's massive pressure to try monetize any hobby. Resilience? Its teenagers. Some are hard as nails, some are drips.

seydor 4y ago

Out of those i m trying to understand climate problems. They dont affect daily life in a visible way. Climate anxiety however has become a thing because of too much media fixation around it. It s so prevalent that some psychologists think it should be classified as a disease

wrp 4y ago

> ...declining quality of education. I'd like to add some nuance to this. While student performance seems to be clearly declining (at least at the college level, which I'm familiar with), I don't know how well we can distinguish the contributions of poor teaching and poor student preparedness. I'll give a concrete example from South Korea. For several years, the English proficiency of incoming university students was so high, there was serious talk of closing English language programs as no longer needed. Within the last few years though, student ability levels have plummeted, requiring drastic dumbing-down of the curriculum at the school where I work. I know many Korean primary, secondary, and college teachers, and I don't think the decline in student achievement is due to their slacking off. It seems to be due to something going on in society outside the schools.

another_story 4y ago

As a longtime educator, I see a lot of experienced teachers leaving. In fact, I'm leaving this year, though I'm unsure if it's permanent. It's a mixture of reasons, from low pay to high demands, but I think a large part is a lack of respect from students, parents and admin. Teachers have been stripped of most of their power to do anything about it. The last year I taught public school a student was verbally abusing others and threatening them in class and I couldn't get him removed. It ruined the class and scared other students, but because he had documented issues they said they couldn't do anything. I teach in overseas private schools now, and the kids are fantastic and the pay is decent, but the job has an increasing amount of non-teaching related stuff which detracts from the what matters, the kids. Also, the syllabus for CS is so outdated, and I find myself apologizing to the kids since I need to to teach it to them for their exams. I teach around the syllabus as best I can, but you still need to get results. TLDR: Experienced teachers leaving, lack of autonomy, curriculum suck

tennisflyi 4y ago

Not sure it's about education. Ladders seem pulled higher and sending your resume to the ether and the dog and pony show that is interviewing...