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Universal education in the US is almost entirely about entry into the professional-managerial class and vanishingly involved in actual training or education. F

Universal education in the US is almost entirely about entry into the professional-managerial class and vanishingly involved in actual training or education. For most people, there are no other straightforward paths to this class of society, so even if this price tag puts the student in debt for much of their life, it is still rational to pay this price. A poor middle class person is marginally better-off than a poor working class person in the US.

nradov 4y ago
There is a fairly straightforward path for a poor working class person to get some experience in the skilled trades and then start their own contracting business. This will usually leave them better off than your ”poor middle class person". Enlisting in the military is also a straightforward path into the middle class, and outside of combat arms it's not even particularly dangerous. With the current level of elite overproduction, a college degree is hardly a guarantee of entry into the professional-managerial class. It's just an opportunity to compete for entry, nothing more. (Education does have other benefits beyond class mobility and career training.)
- lordnacho 4y ago
  Starting your own business is a big risk. This is also merely a chance to compete for entry. Joining the military is not only a physical risk, you are also joining an organization with a pyramidal structure: you may not get that promotion. Getting educated seems like the easiest thing to do, because it's a continuation of what most kids have done. Maybe it suffers from the same pyramid issue, but it's not obvious to all the kids.
  - nradov 4y ago
    What's your point? There are no guarantees in life. Those other paths are no more risky or less straightforward than going to college and then trying to get a professional-managerial corporate job. Starting a small contracting business is hardly a big risk. Capital requirements are fairly low to start picking up small jobs. In my area the ones who show up on time and do quality work are constantly busy. When those businesses fail it's usually because the owner had some kind of personal problem (substance abuse), or because they gamble on real estate development and overextend their credit. As for the military, anyone who stays in 20 years and follows orders without screwing up too badly will earn promotion to at least E-6. They can also take college courses along the way, and will get pretty good retirement benefits. Adults have a moral responsibility to tell kids that there are options other than going to college. Make it obvious. There's certainly nothing wrong with going to college for many kids, but it shouldn't be the default path just because they don't know what else to do.
  - csa 4y ago
    > Joining the military is not only a physical risk, you are also joining an organization with a pyramidal structure: you may not get that promotion. It’s not that hard to get promoted to a level that can get one to a decent early retirement (e7 or o5). - Be moderately intelligent. Not genius level, just enough to past the various tests in your MOS and rank. If one is on the threshold for not being able to do this intellectually, it will usually be apparent early in one’s career. - Be fit. Some people get lazy on this point, some get injured, but it’s usually an issue of personal motivation (or lack thereof). - Minimize fuck ups — drugs, DUIs, run ins with the law, etc. Sometimes these are overlooked, sometimes not. Better not to risk it. - Make sure to make time to go to all the right “charm schools”. Sounds silly, but sometimes you have to fight for it. > Maybe it suffers from the same pyramid issue, but it's not obvious to all the kids. I very much agree with this. There is a very distinct socio-economic pyramid in the US, and most people don’t really understand what they need to do to move up the ladder. It’s not as easy as going to an elite school. There is way more to it, and I think that surprises a lot of people when they are middle-aged and realize that they didn’t really understand the rules of the game.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
pc86 4y ago
Maybe, but it's arguably easier to become a comfortable working class person in the US (plumber, electrician, etc.) than it is to become a comfortable professional/managerial class person if you're walking away from school a quarter million or $300k in debt and your first ~decade of work you're looking at making $50-60k/yr.

nradov 4y ago

There is a fairly straightforward path for a poor working class person to get some experience in the skilled trades and then start their own contracting business. This will usually leave them better off than your ”poor middle class person". Enlisting in the military is also a straightforward path into the middle class, and outside of combat arms it's not even particularly dangerous. With the current level of elite overproduction, a college degree is hardly a guarantee of entry into the professional-managerial class. It's just an opportunity to compete for entry, nothing more. (Education does have other benefits beyond class mobility and career training.)

lordnacho 4y ago
Starting your own business is a big risk. This is also merely a chance to compete for entry. Joining the military is not only a physical risk, you are also joining an organization with a pyramidal structure: you may not get that promotion. Getting educated seems like the easiest thing to do, because it's a continuation of what most kids have done. Maybe it suffers from the same pyramid issue, but it's not obvious to all the kids.
- nradov 4y ago
  What's your point? There are no guarantees in life. Those other paths are no more risky or less straightforward than going to college and then trying to get a professional-managerial corporate job. Starting a small contracting business is hardly a big risk. Capital requirements are fairly low to start picking up small jobs. In my area the ones who show up on time and do quality work are constantly busy. When those businesses fail it's usually because the owner had some kind of personal problem (substance abuse), or because they gamble on real estate development and overextend their credit. As for the military, anyone who stays in 20 years and follows orders without screwing up too badly will earn promotion to at least E-6. They can also take college courses along the way, and will get pretty good retirement benefits. Adults have a moral responsibility to tell kids that there are options other than going to college. Make it obvious. There's certainly nothing wrong with going to college for many kids, but it shouldn't be the default path just because they don't know what else to do.
- csa 4y ago
  > Joining the military is not only a physical risk, you are also joining an organization with a pyramidal structure: you may not get that promotion. It’s not that hard to get promoted to a level that can get one to a decent early retirement (e7 or o5). - Be moderately intelligent. Not genius level, just enough to past the various tests in your MOS and rank. If one is on the threshold for not being able to do this intellectually, it will usually be apparent early in one’s career. - Be fit. Some people get lazy on this point, some get injured, but it’s usually an issue of personal motivation (or lack thereof). - Minimize fuck ups — drugs, DUIs, run ins with the law, etc. Sometimes these are overlooked, sometimes not. Better not to risk it. - Make sure to make time to go to all the right “charm schools”. Sounds silly, but sometimes you have to fight for it. > Maybe it suffers from the same pyramid issue, but it's not obvious to all the kids. I very much agree with this. There is a very distinct socio-economic pyramid in the US, and most people don’t really understand what they need to do to move up the ladder. It’s not as easy as going to an elite school. There is way more to it, and I think that surprises a lot of people when they are middle-aged and realize that they didn’t really understand the rules of the game.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

pc86 4y ago

Maybe, but it's arguably easier to become a comfortable working class person in the US (plumber, electrician, etc.) than it is to become a comfortable professional/managerial class person if you're walking away from school a quarter million or $300k in debt and your first ~decade of work you're looking at making $50-60k/yr.