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Banning TikTok is a completely rational thing to do, given the control that the CCP has over the app. We can't poison our minds with letting China control the a

Banning TikTok is a completely rational thing to do, given the control that the CCP has over the app. We can't poison our minds with letting China control the algorithm and affect hundreds of millions of Americans. We aren't talking about a company motivated by money, it's motivated by power and control. It is 100% a national security threat. We should absolutely ban it, the same way China bans Instagram, Facebook, Google, etc for the same reasons: national security threat. And I personally love TikTok, I'm active on it for a couple of hours a day, but I know that it's a threat.

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s3p 4y ago
Banning TikTok is not the point. The point is about stopping the bill congress is creating to enforce the ban.
nicbou 4y ago
From a European perspective, I don't see TikTok as any different from American platforms. America has been caught spying on other countries and interfering with democracies before.
- abirch 4y ago
  Completely fair. Why not ban both?
  - livelielife 4y ago
    counterpoint: why instead not ban anything? why ban at all? or did you mean why not ban TikTok AND america?? hmmm that's a more interesting proposition
    - abirch 4y ago
      Ban CCP spyware and US spyware. I'm not sure of a country I'd trust with my data, maybe a Swiss company.
      - kvn8888 4y ago
        Ban this, ban that. Lets ban everything I don't like! Lets ban the Statue of David even... It's a slippery slope
        naikrovek 4y ago
        > It's a slippery slope no it's not. there's no such thing as a slippery slope. ban TikTok. it is a threat.
        livelielife 4y ago
        can I ban you? I feel threatened by your idiocy as exposed from your saying clearly false things like "there's no such thing as a slippery slope."
        naikrovek 4y ago
        there isn't. slippery slopes are a mythical problem. the outcome is either the result of a single decision (not a slope) or a result of multiple independent decisions, any one of which could stop the forecasted unintended consequence (not slippery). read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
        ToValueFunfetti 4y ago
        There's a section of that page dedicated to non-fallacious usage. If a decision makes a subsequent decision more likely, the former is a slippery slope to the latter. There is very little risk that I hurt myself doing cocaine responsibly once. The risk in doing cocaine is that if I do it once, I will be inclined to do it again and so on until I'm a broke addict. If slippery slopes were a mythical problem, I could just commit to doing cocaine only once. If you ban alcohol, private citizens will be more likely to decide to start a criminal enterprise to supply it outside of the law. If someone is running a profitable criminal enterprise, they'll be less concerned about breaking the law in general and more likely to branch out to violent crimes. If slippery slopes were a myth, we could institute prohibition without risking a massive expansion of the criminal underworld. I can't find it now, but I saw a comment on HN the other day where a UK citizen expressed how foolish Americans were for disliking their knife laws. Of course they should ban knives in public- knives account for the majority of homicides in their country. No one in the US could be convinced by that argument until effective gun control made it true. Instituting gun control makes it more likely for citizens and politicians to support knife control. (Whether this is worth it is another matter.) Independent decisions are a myth; every decision is made in the context of the ones that came before.
  - adfm 4y ago
    The Streisand effect? TikTok is sketchy AF, but you don’t ban it. Just have your buddies at Raytheon or Teledyne snatch up the old Vine assets and get cheugy with it.
- marvin 4y ago
  The question you should ask, as a fellow European, is whether reducing influence from the US government, a stable but somewhat flawed democracy, is worth the price of losing access to US social media. Think in geopolitical terms, with all this entails of long-term divergence in cultural values, trade and other forms of economic compatibility. And whether this judgement is significantly different from whether reducing influence from the CCP, an obviously totalitarian government that does not balk at overtly undermining of democratic values within your own borders, is worth losing access to TikTok.
  - luispauloml 4y ago
    I am confused by your questions, honestly. Maybe my English skills are lacking, but could you clarify? Here: - Is it worth losing access to US social media to reduce the influence of the US government? - Is it worth losing access to TikTok to reduce the influence of the CCP? Are these the questions your are asking? I really want to understand your comment because I think the same as the parent commenter. And even though I don't understand what you're try saying, it seems like they are important questions I should ask myself.
    - fknorangesite 4y ago
      Yes, that is what they are asking.
    - Initial_BP 4y ago
      I think the previous commenter was implying that one may be worse than the other and trying to get you to reevaluate the idea that you see banning tiktok to be the same as banning US social media because of the differences between the Chinese government and the US government.
      - marvin 4y ago
        Yes. Banning US social media will in my estimation be a net loss for Europe, whereas banning TikTok would be a net win. Subtle US interference and soft power, unpalatable though it may be, is not a real problem for European quality of life even in isolation, certainly not compared to the benefits of cultural exhcange & compatibility, and the following long-term trade and geopolitical cooperation with the US. Whereas interference and soft power from the CCP deliberately undermines multiple core values of our society. It’s pretty damn obvious. I guess to which degree Europe & the EU actually follows democratic values is a separate and very worthwhile discussion; maybe it’s closely related. Certainly looks like that from where I sit, at the northernmost border of the economic block.
- beebmam 4y ago
  There is a big difference. American platforms are not state owned and controlled, they are independently owned and operated by private individuals. TikTok is state owned and state controlled. On top of that, the communist Chinese state has consistently threatened its neighbors with violent annexation. I think it's a dishonest argument to claim that independent American platforms and state-owned Chinese platforms are equivalent.
  - treeman79 4y ago
    US tech companies are not owned by the government, but they are heavily in bed with government.
    - beebmam 4y ago
      When you say "they are heavily in bed with government", can you articulate what you mean? Are you saying that the US government can compel these companies to take certain actions in the same way that the Chinese government can? Like, as in, being able to force the company to give up all of its users' private details? Or being able to force the company to inject malware into their software?
      - kevviiinn 4y ago
        The US government can definitely compel US tech companies to give out information on users, they do regularly.
        beebmam 4y ago
        What evidence do you have for this claim? Are you saying the they can request user data arbitrarily?
        kevviiinn 4y ago
        >But Facebook policy also allows for “emergency requests,” where the tech giant will voluntarily hand over data outside of the legal process when police claim a case involves death or “potential bodily harm.” Increasingly, law enforcement has taken advantage. In 2019, the government made 6,447 such “emergency requests,” compared to 6,000 in 2018 and 3,672 in 2017. Police submitted “preservation requests,” which operate outside of the legal process and preserve user data for 90 days, for more than 110,000 accounts in 2019. https://onezero.medium.com/cops-are-increasingly-requesting-data-from-facebook-and-you-probably-wont-get-notified-if-they-5b7a2297df17 https://onezero.medium.com/cops-are-increasingly-requesting-... I'm surprised you haven't heard of this by now, its been known for years. Of course you can say police will only use it in "real emergencies" but you're not the one defining what a "real emergency" is and cops lie constantly just to get information
- BrandoElFollito 4y ago
  So do I (French). But I realize that we are not really powerful for a country like the US. Even as the EU. If the US withdrew from NATO we would be in theoretical trouble. If US would like to hurt us economically, our retaliation capacities are weak. All in all we unfortunately depend on the US and have to play along.
  - finikytou 4y ago
    we were fine before sarkozy let us back in. actually it has been worse by all accounts after joining back...
  - palata 4y ago
    If only the EU could be more united. But of course that's not in the interest of the US...
    - BrandoElFollito 4y ago
      This is not always a matter of not being united - it can be the sheer difference in power. When Donald Trump decided to punish Iran he forced EU companies to retract from Iran as well (despite having contracts there). If we were to not comply, there would be sanctions against EU companies operating in the US. We asked the EU Commission for help on that but ultimately the EU did not have enough weight. So we got off Iran. Note that I am not addressing the human/ethical aspects of operating in Iran, just the economic imbalance between the US and EU
- gspencley 4y ago
  Then advocate for banning American social media companies in European countries. This type of "whataboutism" keeps coming up every time the news breaks about the USA banning or restricting Chinese tech companies. It misses the point. The point is that EVERY country needs to concern itself with its own national security, local laws and regulations. I wish that every country would embrace freedom, free trade and the open Internet and that we could all just get along ... but those are my personal value judgments being applied. In the current world of foreign relations, countries are going to act according to their own national interests, whatever those happen to be. Each will pretend that it is the one taking the "right" position, and each might behave hypocritically in the moment. The question of who is "right" and who is "wrong" will vary according to your own set of moral principals and beliefs.
  - palata 4y ago
    This is not whataboutism. It is a European saying that from their point of view, the tracking in TikTok is not worse than the tracking by the US Big Data. They are not saying that it should or should not be banned. And I do agree: I don't feel more threatened by TikTok than by Big Data.
- xii23 4y ago
  You don't even need to have an European perspective to realize this. Do you think Facebook, a private company, has any problem with selling (American) data to the CCCP?
  - CodexArcana 4y ago
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- nicbou 4y ago
  Adding to my previous comment: If I lived in the US, I'd be far more afraid of how American companies and government entities use my data. It's a far more real and immediate threat.
  - mikrotikker 4y ago
    Yes it's a fine worry to have on a personal level, but tiktok is a threat at the national level as it threatens the very culture and system of democracy.
epups 4y ago
If I was American, I would be much less concerned with China having my data than my own government, who can act against me at will.
- livelielife 4y ago
  ah, but the data is digital, so both will have it. that way governments may act against you regardless of where you are, best abide by the law, citizen,
- passion__desire 4y ago
  You can be weaponized against your own interests through psychological manipulations. China may not have physical access to do harm to you but they do have digital access and that can do serious damage if you aren't careful.
  - chrisjc 4y ago
    Moreover, it's not just about "me" and "now". In my opionion that's myopic and selfish. It's also about "we" and the future. What "I" do could be used against my family, friends, neighbors, society, etc in the future. We already see something similar happening all the time. Totalitarian dictatorships coercing foreign citizens by threatening the wellbeing of family still in the motherland.
  - Jochim 4y ago
    That's an argument for banning all psychological manipulation. Banning TikTok individually, solves nothing.
- cjdoc29 4y ago
  On a personal level, yes, I'd be much less concerned with China having my data than my own government. On a national scale? Well, I certainly do not want an adversary with an interest in overtaking the U.S. have both data and means to manipulate the opinions of its citizens.
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thiagoharry 4y ago
Ah, the American freedom of thought... Communism not allowed. Any other political party or group is allowed, and could have a platform. There are a lot of foreign media allowed there. Internally even KKK is allowed. But who were really persecuted were groups like the Black Panthers, which until nowadays have members kept as political prisoners.
- thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
  >> Ah, the American freedom of thought... Communism not allowed. Any other political party or group is allowed, and could have a platform. Not true. Communism is allowed: https://www.cpusa.org/ https://www.cpusa.org/ It is just not very popular: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_USA#Best_results_in_major_races https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_USA#Best_resul...
  - Mountain_Skies 4y ago
    Madison Square Garden used to allow Nazi rallies. Now Reddit will have you fired if you make the OK sign because they're too embarrassed to admit they got trolled by 4chan and have no problem destroying the lives of innocents who don't keep up with the latest outrage culture headlines to understand what's suddenly unacceptable common behavior.
    - throwaway29812 4y ago
      > Madison Square Garden used to allow Nazi rallies. Now Reddit will have you fired if you make the OK sign Progress?
  - thiagoharry 4y ago
    Sure, it is very easy and convenient to allow dissent only when it offers no risk. But if there were a chance for them to became popular, then FBI would restart the pogroms from McCarthyist era. There are still Black Panther members jailed and kept in solitary confinement because authorities are afraid that they could talk with other inmates and convince them of their ideology.
tenebrisalietum 4y ago
A couple of hours a day is a lot of time on TikTok. What content have you seen that might be CCP controlled?
- kvn8888 4y ago
  OP is irrational here. You can find videos about 'Uyghur genocide' with that exact search term and countless of Tiananmen square videos. Memes about Tiananmen square were popular on that platform. As well as videos critical of the CCP. Anyone who claims otherwise clearly hasn't used Tiktok. And they'll shift goalposts to fit their narrative
  - wkat4242 4y ago
    Well yeah because this platform is focused on Western markets. TikTok is not available in China itself, there's a different version. There's no point in hiding these things from western users because we already know about them. If they will block them it will only attract more attention (aka Streisand effect)
  - throwaway29812 4y ago
    > OP is irrational here. You can find videos about 'Uyghur genocide' with that exact search term and countless of Tiananmen square videos. Sure, but would you get delivered this content if you didn't search for it? Or if you are in a contested region? https://futurism.com/china-hong-kong-censoring-protests-tiktok https://futurism.com/china-hong-kong-censoring-protests-tikt... Big difference.
    - kvn8888 4y ago
      Yes. I've been delivered John Cena bing chilling memes with slightly racist undertones. I've seen memes about Tiananmen square. Winnie the pooh xi jinping memes. And we're talking about TikTok content in America, not in Hong Kong.
      - throwaway29812 4y ago
kvn8888 4y ago
What? China bans Facebook, Google, and Instagram because of censorship, not because they're "national security threats". And it will absolutely be motivated by money once Bytedance sells the platform. A Chinese company sold Grinder because of privacy concerns. Tiktok will either IPO or be sold off
xster 4y ago
China didn't ban Instagram, Facebook, Google
- throwaway29812 4y ago
  Sorry?
  - tstrimple 4y ago
    China set conditions for those apps to operate within their nation. The companies which own the apps declined to jump through the hoops for the apps which aren't in available China. China didn't specifically ban any of these US apps. TikTok in China operates quite a bit differently than in the US because the US doesn't have laws protecting children from social media abuse the way China does.
johnea 4y ago
Yea, we muricans need to focus on letting fox and myface poison our minds!
ehhthing 4y ago
I'm sorry, but what? You haven't cited anything that shows China cares about using TikTok as a means of influencing foreign countries? You're just spouting rhetoric that is made to fearmonger. China bans western websites because they don't follow China's censorship requirements. Apple services exist in China, why isn't Apple a national security threat? They're the richest tech company on the planet, and based in the US.
- wkat4242 4y ago
  Because Apple sucks up to China. And they're not a security threat to China because they're controlled by their shareholders, not the government. Shareholders who will not want to throw their entire investment into the toilet. Tim Cook just went all the way over there to kiss their feet: https://nypost.com/2023/03/27/tim-cook-touts-apples-symbiotic-relationship-with-china/ https://nypost.com/2023/03/27/tim-cook-touts-apples-symbioti... And he doesn't have a choice. Google took a stand and had to give up its position in the Chinese market. But Apple as a manufacturer will have to give up their entire business if they go against China.
  - Jochim 4y ago
    > And they're not a security threat to China because they're controlled by their shareholders, not the government. Shareholders who will not want to throw their entire investment into the toilet. Bytedance is majority owned by foreign shareholders: > ByteDance says 60% of its shares are owned by non-Chinese investors such as U.S investment firms Carlyle Group and Kohlberg Kravis Roberts and Japan's SoftBank Group. Employees own 20% and its founders the remaining 20%.
- yadaeno 4y ago
  China is preparing a military invasion of a US Ally (Taiwan) within the next 5 years. They absolutely care about influenceing the US public to oppose military support for Taiwan. I would go a step further and say that reclaiming Taiwan and triumphing over the US are among the top goals of the CCP.
  - 4y ago
Mountain_Skies 4y ago
Ah, yes, the typical HN arrogance that the pee-ons must be protected from any thought or concept that doesn't support the poster's beliefs. It's important for Democracy for the voters to have only a restricted view of the world, lest they vote the wrong way, at which point, where would we be?
- throwaway29812 4y ago
  Ignoring that nation states are have organized efforts to degrade other countries over time by these mediums doesn't make it any less true. It just means your head is in the sand.
- dang 4y ago
  "Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community." It's reliably a marker of bad comments and worse threads. Instead, the idea is: if you have a substantive point, make it thoughtfully; if not, please don't comment until you do. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
babypuncher 4y ago
Instead of banning TikTok, why don't we ban the data collection policies that make it a threat? I don't really see a fair way to handle this that doesn't end up also banning Facebook, Instagram, etc. The problem is that these companies are collecting enough sensitive data to pose a huge security risk, but our politicians are acting like it's only a problem when someone else does it.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  > Instead of banning TikTok, why don't we ban the data collection policies that make it a threat? So much this. Everyone's gotten focused on one particular company when this problem is much more widespread than that.
  - throwaway29812 4y ago
    What makes you think a country with a long history of theft and cheating agreements will do anything besides ignore any rules the west attempts to create?
    - JohnFen 4y ago
      That's missing the point. The point is that this is a problem with US (and other) companies just as much with Chinese ones. Any legislative solution should address the underlying issue and attempt to resolve the problem across the entire industry, not just with one single company. If a company (Chinese or otherwise) ignores the law, then it would be appropriate to sanction them.
    - rhamzeh 4y ago
      "a country with a long history of theft and cheating agreements will do anything besides ignore any rules the west attempts to create" - kinda ironic you mention this considering your description fits the US like a glove.
      - throwaway29812 4y ago
timcavel 4y ago
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bt4u 4y ago
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tzs 4y ago
> We should absolutely ban it, the same way China bans Instagram, Facebook, Google, etc for the same reasons: national security threat. China has not banned those. Foreign internet companies can operate in China if they obey the same rules that Chinese internet companies have to obey, such as Chinese censorship requirements and requirements to share data with the government. Most US internet companies aren't willing to meet those requirements, so don't operate there. If the US wants to ban TikTok it should do the same thing here: make privacy and transparency rules that all social media companies that want to operate in the US must follow.
- Calvin02 4y ago
  Great. Let’s copy and paste China’s rules on western social media apps and apply them to Chinese owned social media apps in the US. I wonder how many people in the US will use TikTok if the rules require government censorship and data sharing.
  - anaganisk 4y ago
    That's not what they meant and probably you know that, it's more like coming up with a standard set of rules that applies for all the apps and TikTok can either choose to obey them or exit the US market. Exactly like how American companies exited China. What the government perceives as a threat for apps from other nations must also apply to home grown apps. It's not like US based apps haven't been unethical, or didn't cause a crisis.
- sieabahlpark 4y ago
  [dead]
- antoniuschan99 4y ago
  There’s also forced tech transfer
- bradlys 4y ago
  Transparency law is never going to happen because US companies don’t want to follow such things.
adolph 4y ago
It sounds like you see banning TikTok as rational out of a sense of reciprocity with the application's country or origin. Is that the operating principle?
graboidhunter 4y ago
I oppose banning TikTok. I oppose it even though I dislike the platform. I dislike its data collection. I dislike that the CCP likely can access the data. I dislike that it is a national security threat. I would accept limited bans within specific contexts (e.g., people in sensitive positions with access to sensitive data). At the same time, I crave reform to our privacy laws. We, the people, need better protection against data collection and use by both private and public entities.
tomjen3 4y ago
With the argument, we (speaking as a european) should ban Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and so on. Is that really where you want to go.
finikytou 4y ago
but its ok to have "open"AI steal everything on the open web, use it as a training set and rent it to people so that the guys who answers the questions and built the prior knowledge of the web can be paid less or even removed? hell Id take TikTok anyday vs OpenAI
saturn5k 4y ago
You've just described Facebook, Instagram, Google, Netflix.. Just swap CCP with CIA, NSA, FBI...
rambojohnson 4y ago
paranoid zuckerburg shill.
kornhole 4y ago
If the RESTRICT act passes, TikTok will likely be just the first ICT (Internet Communication Technology) service to be banned. Next on the list may be Russia Today, Rumble, or any other app or site that is not fully US based and controlled. The decisions are at the discretion of the president. Be careful what precedent you set.

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s3p 4y ago

Banning TikTok is not the point. The point is about stopping the bill congress is creating to enforce the ban.

nicbou 4y ago

From a European perspective, I don't see TikTok as any different from American platforms. America has been caught spying on other countries and interfering with democracies before.

abirch 4y ago
Completely fair. Why not ban both?
- livelielife 4y ago
  counterpoint: why instead not ban anything? why ban at all? or did you mean why not ban TikTok AND america?? hmmm that's a more interesting proposition
  - abirch 4y ago
    Ban CCP spyware and US spyware. I'm not sure of a country I'd trust with my data, maybe a Swiss company.
    - kvn8888 4y ago
      Ban this, ban that. Lets ban everything I don't like! Lets ban the Statue of David even... It's a slippery slope
      - naikrovek 4y ago
        > It's a slippery slope no it's not. there's no such thing as a slippery slope. ban TikTok. it is a threat.
        livelielife 4y ago
        can I ban you? I feel threatened by your idiocy as exposed from your saying clearly false things like "there's no such thing as a slippery slope."
        naikrovek 4y ago
        there isn't. slippery slopes are a mythical problem. the outcome is either the result of a single decision (not a slope) or a result of multiple independent decisions, any one of which could stop the forecasted unintended consequence (not slippery). read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
        ToValueFunfetti 4y ago
        There's a section of that page dedicated to non-fallacious usage. If a decision makes a subsequent decision more likely, the former is a slippery slope to the latter. There is very little risk that I hurt myself doing cocaine responsibly once. The risk in doing cocaine is that if I do it once, I will be inclined to do it again and so on until I'm a broke addict. If slippery slopes were a mythical problem, I could just commit to doing cocaine only once. If you ban alcohol, private citizens will be more likely to decide to start a criminal enterprise to supply it outside of the law. If someone is running a profitable criminal enterprise, they'll be less concerned about breaking the law in general and more likely to branch out to violent crimes. If slippery slopes were a myth, we could institute prohibition without risking a massive expansion of the criminal underworld. I can't find it now, but I saw a comment on HN the other day where a UK citizen expressed how foolish Americans were for disliking their knife laws. Of course they should ban knives in public- knives account for the majority of homicides in their country. No one in the US could be convinced by that argument until effective gun control made it true. Instituting gun control makes it more likely for citizens and politicians to support knife control. (Whether this is worth it is another matter.) Independent decisions are a myth; every decision is made in the context of the ones that came before.
- adfm 4y ago
  The Streisand effect? TikTok is sketchy AF, but you don’t ban it. Just have your buddies at Raytheon or Teledyne snatch up the old Vine assets and get cheugy with it.
marvin 4y ago
The question you should ask, as a fellow European, is whether reducing influence from the US government, a stable but somewhat flawed democracy, is worth the price of losing access to US social media. Think in geopolitical terms, with all this entails of long-term divergence in cultural values, trade and other forms of economic compatibility. And whether this judgement is significantly different from whether reducing influence from the CCP, an obviously totalitarian government that does not balk at overtly undermining of democratic values within your own borders, is worth losing access to TikTok.
- luispauloml 4y ago
  I am confused by your questions, honestly. Maybe my English skills are lacking, but could you clarify? Here: - Is it worth losing access to US social media to reduce the influence of the US government? - Is it worth losing access to TikTok to reduce the influence of the CCP? Are these the questions your are asking? I really want to understand your comment because I think the same as the parent commenter. And even though I don't understand what you're try saying, it seems like they are important questions I should ask myself.
  - fknorangesite 4y ago
    Yes, that is what they are asking.
  - Initial_BP 4y ago
    I think the previous commenter was implying that one may be worse than the other and trying to get you to reevaluate the idea that you see banning tiktok to be the same as banning US social media because of the differences between the Chinese government and the US government.
    - marvin 4y ago
      Yes. Banning US social media will in my estimation be a net loss for Europe, whereas banning TikTok would be a net win. Subtle US interference and soft power, unpalatable though it may be, is not a real problem for European quality of life even in isolation, certainly not compared to the benefits of cultural exhcange & compatibility, and the following long-term trade and geopolitical cooperation with the US. Whereas interference and soft power from the CCP deliberately undermines multiple core values of our society. It’s pretty damn obvious. I guess to which degree Europe & the EU actually follows democratic values is a separate and very worthwhile discussion; maybe it’s closely related. Certainly looks like that from where I sit, at the northernmost border of the economic block.
beebmam 4y ago
There is a big difference. American platforms are not state owned and controlled, they are independently owned and operated by private individuals. TikTok is state owned and state controlled. On top of that, the communist Chinese state has consistently threatened its neighbors with violent annexation. I think it's a dishonest argument to claim that independent American platforms and state-owned Chinese platforms are equivalent.
- treeman79 4y ago
  US tech companies are not owned by the government, but they are heavily in bed with government.
  - beebmam 4y ago
    When you say "they are heavily in bed with government", can you articulate what you mean? Are you saying that the US government can compel these companies to take certain actions in the same way that the Chinese government can? Like, as in, being able to force the company to give up all of its users' private details? Or being able to force the company to inject malware into their software?
    - kevviiinn 4y ago
      The US government can definitely compel US tech companies to give out information on users, they do regularly.
      - beebmam 4y ago
        What evidence do you have for this claim? Are you saying the they can request user data arbitrarily?
        kevviiinn 4y ago
        >But Facebook policy also allows for “emergency requests,” where the tech giant will voluntarily hand over data outside of the legal process when police claim a case involves death or “potential bodily harm.” Increasingly, law enforcement has taken advantage. In 2019, the government made 6,447 such “emergency requests,” compared to 6,000 in 2018 and 3,672 in 2017. Police submitted “preservation requests,” which operate outside of the legal process and preserve user data for 90 days, for more than 110,000 accounts in 2019. https://onezero.medium.com/cops-are-increasingly-requesting-data-from-facebook-and-you-probably-wont-get-notified-if-they-5b7a2297df17 https://onezero.medium.com/cops-are-increasingly-requesting-... I'm surprised you haven't heard of this by now, its been known for years. Of course you can say police will only use it in "real emergencies" but you're not the one defining what a "real emergency" is and cops lie constantly just to get information
BrandoElFollito 4y ago
So do I (French). But I realize that we are not really powerful for a country like the US. Even as the EU. If the US withdrew from NATO we would be in theoretical trouble. If US would like to hurt us economically, our retaliation capacities are weak. All in all we unfortunately depend on the US and have to play along.
- finikytou 4y ago
  we were fine before sarkozy let us back in. actually it has been worse by all accounts after joining back...
- palata 4y ago
  If only the EU could be more united. But of course that's not in the interest of the US...
  - BrandoElFollito 4y ago
    This is not always a matter of not being united - it can be the sheer difference in power. When Donald Trump decided to punish Iran he forced EU companies to retract from Iran as well (despite having contracts there). If we were to not comply, there would be sanctions against EU companies operating in the US. We asked the EU Commission for help on that but ultimately the EU did not have enough weight. So we got off Iran. Note that I am not addressing the human/ethical aspects of operating in Iran, just the economic imbalance between the US and EU
gspencley 4y ago
Then advocate for banning American social media companies in European countries. This type of "whataboutism" keeps coming up every time the news breaks about the USA banning or restricting Chinese tech companies. It misses the point. The point is that EVERY country needs to concern itself with its own national security, local laws and regulations. I wish that every country would embrace freedom, free trade and the open Internet and that we could all just get along ... but those are my personal value judgments being applied. In the current world of foreign relations, countries are going to act according to their own national interests, whatever those happen to be. Each will pretend that it is the one taking the "right" position, and each might behave hypocritically in the moment. The question of who is "right" and who is "wrong" will vary according to your own set of moral principals and beliefs.
- palata 4y ago
  This is not whataboutism. It is a European saying that from their point of view, the tracking in TikTok is not worse than the tracking by the US Big Data. They are not saying that it should or should not be banned. And I do agree: I don't feel more threatened by TikTok than by Big Data.
xii23 4y ago
You don't even need to have an European perspective to realize this. Do you think Facebook, a private company, has any problem with selling (American) data to the CCCP?
- CodexArcana 4y ago
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nicbou 4y ago
Adding to my previous comment: If I lived in the US, I'd be far more afraid of how American companies and government entities use my data. It's a far more real and immediate threat.
- mikrotikker 4y ago
  Yes it's a fine worry to have on a personal level, but tiktok is a threat at the national level as it threatens the very culture and system of democracy.

epups 4y ago

If I was American, I would be much less concerned with China having my data than my own government, who can act against me at will.

livelielife 4y ago
ah, but the data is digital, so both will have it. that way governments may act against you regardless of where you are, best abide by the law, citizen,
passion__desire 4y ago
You can be weaponized against your own interests through psychological manipulations. China may not have physical access to do harm to you but they do have digital access and that can do serious damage if you aren't careful.
- chrisjc 4y ago
  Moreover, it's not just about "me" and "now". In my opionion that's myopic and selfish. It's also about "we" and the future. What "I" do could be used against my family, friends, neighbors, society, etc in the future. We already see something similar happening all the time. Totalitarian dictatorships coercing foreign citizens by threatening the wellbeing of family still in the motherland.
- Jochim 4y ago
  That's an argument for banning all psychological manipulation. Banning TikTok individually, solves nothing.
cjdoc29 4y ago
On a personal level, yes, I'd be much less concerned with China having my data than my own government. On a national scale? Well, I certainly do not want an adversary with an interest in overtaking the U.S. have both data and means to manipulate the opinions of its citizens.
- 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

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thiagoharry 4y ago

Ah, the American freedom of thought... Communism not allowed. Any other political party or group is allowed, and could have a platform. There are a lot of foreign media allowed there. Internally even KKK is allowed. But who were really persecuted were groups like the Black Panthers, which until nowadays have members kept as political prisoners.

thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
>> Ah, the American freedom of thought... Communism not allowed. Any other political party or group is allowed, and could have a platform. Not true. Communism is allowed: https://www.cpusa.org/ https://www.cpusa.org/ It is just not very popular: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_USA#Best_results_in_major_races https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_USA#Best_resul...
- Mountain_Skies 4y ago
  Madison Square Garden used to allow Nazi rallies. Now Reddit will have you fired if you make the OK sign because they're too embarrassed to admit they got trolled by 4chan and have no problem destroying the lives of innocents who don't keep up with the latest outrage culture headlines to understand what's suddenly unacceptable common behavior.
  - throwaway29812 4y ago
    > Madison Square Garden used to allow Nazi rallies. Now Reddit will have you fired if you make the OK sign Progress?
- thiagoharry 4y ago
  Sure, it is very easy and convenient to allow dissent only when it offers no risk. But if there were a chance for them to became popular, then FBI would restart the pogroms from McCarthyist era. There are still Black Panther members jailed and kept in solitary confinement because authorities are afraid that they could talk with other inmates and convince them of their ideology.

tenebrisalietum 4y ago

A couple of hours a day is a lot of time on TikTok. What content have you seen that might be CCP controlled?

kvn8888 4y ago
OP is irrational here. You can find videos about 'Uyghur genocide' with that exact search term and countless of Tiananmen square videos. Memes about Tiananmen square were popular on that platform. As well as videos critical of the CCP. Anyone who claims otherwise clearly hasn't used Tiktok. And they'll shift goalposts to fit their narrative
- wkat4242 4y ago
  Well yeah because this platform is focused on Western markets. TikTok is not available in China itself, there's a different version. There's no point in hiding these things from western users because we already know about them. If they will block them it will only attract more attention (aka Streisand effect)
- throwaway29812 4y ago
  > OP is irrational here. You can find videos about 'Uyghur genocide' with that exact search term and countless of Tiananmen square videos. Sure, but would you get delivered this content if you didn't search for it? Or if you are in a contested region? https://futurism.com/china-hong-kong-censoring-protests-tiktok https://futurism.com/china-hong-kong-censoring-protests-tikt... Big difference.
  - kvn8888 4y ago
    Yes. I've been delivered John Cena bing chilling memes with slightly racist undertones. I've seen memes about Tiananmen square. Winnie the pooh xi jinping memes. And we're talking about TikTok content in America, not in Hong Kong.
    - throwaway29812 4y ago

kvn8888 4y ago

What? China bans Facebook, Google, and Instagram because of censorship, not because they're "national security threats". And it will absolutely be motivated by money once Bytedance sells the platform. A Chinese company sold Grinder because of privacy concerns. Tiktok will either IPO or be sold off

xster 4y ago

China didn't ban Instagram, Facebook, Google

throwaway29812 4y ago
Sorry?
- tstrimple 4y ago
  China set conditions for those apps to operate within their nation. The companies which own the apps declined to jump through the hoops for the apps which aren't in available China. China didn't specifically ban any of these US apps. TikTok in China operates quite a bit differently than in the US because the US doesn't have laws protecting children from social media abuse the way China does.

johnea 4y ago

Yea, we muricans need to focus on letting fox and myface poison our minds!

ehhthing 4y ago

I'm sorry, but what? You haven't cited anything that shows China cares about using TikTok as a means of influencing foreign countries? You're just spouting rhetoric that is made to fearmonger. China bans western websites because they don't follow China's censorship requirements. Apple services exist in China, why isn't Apple a national security threat? They're the richest tech company on the planet, and based in the US.

wkat4242 4y ago
Because Apple sucks up to China. And they're not a security threat to China because they're controlled by their shareholders, not the government. Shareholders who will not want to throw their entire investment into the toilet. Tim Cook just went all the way over there to kiss their feet: https://nypost.com/2023/03/27/tim-cook-touts-apples-symbiotic-relationship-with-china/ https://nypost.com/2023/03/27/tim-cook-touts-apples-symbioti... And he doesn't have a choice. Google took a stand and had to give up its position in the Chinese market. But Apple as a manufacturer will have to give up their entire business if they go against China.
- Jochim 4y ago
  > And they're not a security threat to China because they're controlled by their shareholders, not the government. Shareholders who will not want to throw their entire investment into the toilet. Bytedance is majority owned by foreign shareholders: > ByteDance says 60% of its shares are owned by non-Chinese investors such as U.S investment firms Carlyle Group and Kohlberg Kravis Roberts and Japan's SoftBank Group. Employees own 20% and its founders the remaining 20%.
yadaeno 4y ago
China is preparing a military invasion of a US Ally (Taiwan) within the next 5 years. They absolutely care about influenceing the US public to oppose military support for Taiwan. I would go a step further and say that reclaiming Taiwan and triumphing over the US are among the top goals of the CCP.
- 4y ago

Mountain_Skies 4y ago

Ah, yes, the typical HN arrogance that the pee-ons must be protected from any thought or concept that doesn't support the poster's beliefs. It's important for Democracy for the voters to have only a restricted view of the world, lest they vote the wrong way, at which point, where would we be?

throwaway29812 4y ago
Ignoring that nation states are have organized efforts to degrade other countries over time by these mediums doesn't make it any less true. It just means your head is in the sand.
dang 4y ago
"Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community." It's reliably a marker of bad comments and worse threads. Instead, the idea is: if you have a substantive point, make it thoughtfully; if not, please don't comment until you do. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

babypuncher 4y ago

Instead of banning TikTok, why don't we ban the data collection policies that make it a threat? I don't really see a fair way to handle this that doesn't end up also banning Facebook, Instagram, etc. The problem is that these companies are collecting enough sensitive data to pose a huge security risk, but our politicians are acting like it's only a problem when someone else does it.

JohnFen 4y ago
> Instead of banning TikTok, why don't we ban the data collection policies that make it a threat? So much this. Everyone's gotten focused on one particular company when this problem is much more widespread than that.
- throwaway29812 4y ago
  What makes you think a country with a long history of theft and cheating agreements will do anything besides ignore any rules the west attempts to create?
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    That's missing the point. The point is that this is a problem with US (and other) companies just as much with Chinese ones. Any legislative solution should address the underlying issue and attempt to resolve the problem across the entire industry, not just with one single company. If a company (Chinese or otherwise) ignores the law, then it would be appropriate to sanction them.
  - rhamzeh 4y ago
    "a country with a long history of theft and cheating agreements will do anything besides ignore any rules the west attempts to create" - kinda ironic you mention this considering your description fits the US like a glove.
    - throwaway29812 4y ago

timcavel 4y ago

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bt4u 4y ago

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tzs 4y ago

> We should absolutely ban it, the same way China bans Instagram, Facebook, Google, etc for the same reasons: national security threat. China has not banned those. Foreign internet companies can operate in China if they obey the same rules that Chinese internet companies have to obey, such as Chinese censorship requirements and requirements to share data with the government. Most US internet companies aren't willing to meet those requirements, so don't operate there. If the US wants to ban TikTok it should do the same thing here: make privacy and transparency rules that all social media companies that want to operate in the US must follow.

Calvin02 4y ago
Great. Let’s copy and paste China’s rules on western social media apps and apply them to Chinese owned social media apps in the US. I wonder how many people in the US will use TikTok if the rules require government censorship and data sharing.
- anaganisk 4y ago
  That's not what they meant and probably you know that, it's more like coming up with a standard set of rules that applies for all the apps and TikTok can either choose to obey them or exit the US market. Exactly like how American companies exited China. What the government perceives as a threat for apps from other nations must also apply to home grown apps. It's not like US based apps haven't been unethical, or didn't cause a crisis.
sieabahlpark 4y ago
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antoniuschan99 4y ago
There’s also forced tech transfer
bradlys 4y ago
Transparency law is never going to happen because US companies don’t want to follow such things.

adolph 4y ago

It sounds like you see banning TikTok as rational out of a sense of reciprocity with the application's country or origin. Is that the operating principle?

graboidhunter 4y ago

I oppose banning TikTok. I oppose it even though I dislike the platform. I dislike its data collection. I dislike that the CCP likely can access the data. I dislike that it is a national security threat. I would accept limited bans within specific contexts (e.g., people in sensitive positions with access to sensitive data). At the same time, I crave reform to our privacy laws. We, the people, need better protection against data collection and use by both private and public entities.

tomjen3 4y ago

With the argument, we (speaking as a european) should ban Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and so on. Is that really where you want to go.

finikytou 4y ago

but its ok to have "open"AI steal everything on the open web, use it as a training set and rent it to people so that the guys who answers the questions and built the prior knowledge of the web can be paid less or even removed? hell Id take TikTok anyday vs OpenAI

saturn5k 4y ago

You've just described Facebook, Instagram, Google, Netflix.. Just swap CCP with CIA, NSA, FBI...

rambojohnson 4y ago

paranoid zuckerburg shill.

kornhole 4y ago

If the RESTRICT act passes, TikTok will likely be just the first ICT (Internet Communication Technology) service to be banned. Next on the list may be Russia Today, Rumble, or any other app or site that is not fully US based and controlled. The decisions are at the discretion of the president. Be careful what precedent you set.