15 ms·

EU countries approve 2035 phaseout of CO2-emitting cars

126 points by frankjr 4y ago

pipo234 4y ago
> The European Commission has pledged, however, to create a legal route for sales of new cars that only run on e-fuels to continue after 2035, after Germany demanded this exemption from the ban. Sigh!
- comandillos 4y ago
  Is either that or Germany letting their automakers that have not been able to adapt to the new EV era just die... and nobody wants to see what is that impact of that over the whole European economy...
  - wongarsu 4y ago
    According to [1] Volkswagen was the third largest producer of EVs in 2022, only behind BYD and Tesla. And BMW and Mercedes Benz both are in the top 10. It's not like German automakers have been sitting on their hands or would just die. The problem is not so much the automakers themselves but their suppliers. Those employ far more people, and EVs just don't need a lot of those parts. 1: https://www.ev-volumes.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/WW-S3-12-2022.png https://www.ev-volumes.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/WW-S3-...
  - izacus 4y ago
    All the big German automakers have launched good EVs by now and they've been successful on the market as well in Europe. Which ones are you talking about?
    - censor_me 4y ago
      [dead]
    - comandillos 4y ago
      They provide good alternatives, indeed, but Tesla is still the most sold brand in Europe, and anyone living in Central Europe cannot deny that Tesla is by far the most dominant EV brand. The reason behind it is that there is pretty much nothing in that price range that offers the same as a Model 3 or Y... However, Tesla has sold more vehicles than the ones they can provide support to, so all their service centers are collapsed due to their dealership policy... The European brands need to be more competitive, and although they are on good track for it, I think they are a bit late to the game. Is either that or people noticing that the after sales support of Tesla is inexistent and they start to value the perks of the legacy automakers.
      - izacus 4y ago
        That's because European brands offer more models so your top graphs are fragmented. This is how market competition looks like - having a choice of models and brands not just a single Tesla 3. On top 10, European brands together vastly outsold Tesla - VAG group for example outsold all Tesla models in EU last year.
  - arlcode 4y ago
    It's not the automakers. Those have long since started to transition to BEVs and do offer some attractive options which are produced at scale and can often be seen on the streets where I am (not near any of the OEM headquarters). They have also mostly stopped R&D on ICE technology The issue is with the suppliers and suppliers of suppliers which are a backbone of German industry and some of which cannot transition away ICE technology. Of course e-fuels are not going to safe them anyway but their lobbying caused this.
    - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
      The automakers did put up initial resistance, some Japanese brands still are. But this particular political compromise is just a libertarian party needing a workaround to avoid to be seen banning something that everyone knows will be obsolete by that time anyway. The EV transition is accelerating, this is just the minimum that could get cross EU support in law today. But individual countries already have their own phase outs.
- quic5 4y ago
  All because of a single German political party that will struggle to get the required 5% next term. Kinda crazy
- go_elmo 4y ago
  Not Germany, but the FDP Party is to blame, representing sub 5% subset of voters.
  - wongarsu 4y ago
    Arguably the represent 11.5%, since that's how many votes they got. But yeah, their current poll results are a lot worse than that.
    - b3orn 4y ago
      They represent much less, they lost a lot of votes in state parliament elections since the federal election, not just in polls.
  - oaiey 4y ago
    Unlimited Speed on Highways = People who drive really fast = People think their time is money = Entrepreneur mindset = FDP key voters. Guess what we Germans are unable to kill either: Adding a generic speed limit so we do not get heart attacks when someone drives 300km behind us. Sucks but is called a compromise. Democracy.
    - samjmck 4y ago
      Genuinely curious: does having no speed limit cause more deaths on the road?
      - mantas 4y ago
        I remember there was a test run Australia and no speed limit didn't increase casualties. Whenever I come over to Germany, driving on autobans feels like a pleasure compared to eastern european highways with a speed limit :/
        defrost 4y ago
        Four dead was the usual number of casualties? https://www.upi.com/Archives/1994/05/24/Four-die-in-Australian-road-rally/8473769752000/ https://www.upi.com/Archives/1994/05/24/Four-die-in-Australi...
- rafale 4y ago
  If they they are carbon neutral or near neutral like lithium batteries, then why not?
  - henearkr 4y ago
    Air pollution, noise pollution, health problems.
  - mr_mitm 4y ago
    We'll be needing any kWh of green electricity we can get, and wasting it on inefficient e-fuels is dumb and wasteful. But I guess everybody has the right to be dumb and wasteful, so here we are.
- unwind 4y ago
  Sounds annoying, but I had to skim through looking for a definition of "e-fuel" since it was not a term I was accustomed to. Found it: E-fuels are produced by synthesising captured CO2 emissions and hydrogen produced using CO2-free electricity. They are considered carbon neutral because the CO2 released when the fuel is combusted is balanced by the CO2 removed from the atmosphere to produce the fuel. And also learnt that they're also called "electrofuels" [1]. That makes it sound less horrible, except that such production doesn't exist yet at a sensible/interesting scale as far as I understand. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrofuel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrofuel
  - rob74 4y ago
    Nevertheless, e-fuel cars are still a step back compared to electric cars: electric cars don't pollute while they're running, but may still generate pollution depending on how the electricity they are charged with was produced, e-fuel cars produce both tailpipe pollution and potentially also electricity generation pollution. But I guess that due to how horrendously expensive e-fuels will be, these vehicles will be so rare that tailpipe pollution won't matter much...
    - cryptonym 4y ago
      e-fuel cars also generate noise, sound pollution. Sad that Germany prevented us from getting rid of that noisy redneck revving his expensive engine in the middle of the city.
      - andrewshadura 4y ago
        All cars generate noise pollution. Most noise in cars is produced by tyres.
        henearkr 4y ago
        Tyres noises are not what spikes my blood pressure in the middle of the night. Those are engine/tailpipe noises.
- New_California 4y ago
  Poland and Hungary were also strictly against the ban on selling gasoline cars. So no, it's not only Germany. Whether EU itself will be still a thing in 12+ years to enforce this bullshit ban is another question.
  - arlcode 4y ago
    What makes you believe it won't be a thing (or a rebranded version of it)? Unless any of the European countries (even the larger ones) wants to be crushed by the economic weight of the US or China they better stick together. Even most Euro-skeptics seems to get it by now. The fact that Russia is removing itself from the game of economics and has voluntarily killed of European dependency on their gas is reducing inner EU conflict.
    - New_California 4y ago
      Not saying it necessarily will fall apart but there is a possibility. UK is already out. Hungary and Poland are very nasty EU members for lack of a better term. The tension is growing. Personally I would much prefer EU to *reset* to bare free-trade, free-movement, no-borders ethos, removing entirety of central regulations and central governance.
    - lakomen 4y ago
      haha this is so naive I don't know what to say, it's almost cute. I can only wish you open eyes and an open mind capable of thinking your own thoughts. I should know better than to comment on something like this, but sometimes I just can't be helped.
  - ihatepython 4y ago
    > Whether EU itself will be still a thing in 12+ years to enforce this bullshit ban is another question. You are correct, the EU is going to break up, definitely before 2035, and probably sooner rather than later. We are at the beginning of a serious financial crisis, this time it's a sovereign debt crisis, caused by going to negative interest rates in 2014 (among other reasons).
helsinkiandrew 4y ago
> EU countries approve 2035 phaseout of CO2-emitting cars That's quite a misleading headline from Reuters - they're not phasing out C02 emitting cars, they're banning sale of new CO2 emitting cars. Existing CO2 cars will continue to be legal, although probably become much more expensive to run than electric cars, and of course could be outlawed by further legislation.
- devoutsalsa 4y ago
  I'm going to miss really simple cars with barely any electronics in them.
  - bruce343434 4y ago
    In theory, electric cars are simpler. Fewer moving parts and all that. But _modern_ cars are full of electronic doodads. Theoretically there is nothing stopping someone from developing a barebones electric car.
    - throw_pm23 4y ago
      Theoretically no, but practically the big manufacturers lobby to label smart electronics as safety features, so if you want to sell a simple car, you face the uphill battle of explaining why it scores low on safety ratings (which are mostly a checkbox-list of smart features).
      - WJW 4y ago
        TBH, things like airbags, power steering and automatic traction control do make the car safer.
    - uc_banana 4y ago
      Once you've used the necessary amounts of up-to-date electronic design techniques and components to build the battery management, motor controller and charging systems in your "barebones" EV, adding some multicolour lighting and a touchscreen is a tiny step. A milkfloat is nearest thing to a "barebones" EV.
HPsquared 4y ago
Technically any car with passengers emits CO2.
- ben_w 4y ago
  Technically humans have radioactive breath, too. It's not generally considered an important factor.
  - HPsquared 4y ago
    Oh indeed, it's just where do you draw the line? If a car has a very small range-extender engine that's only used occasionally, the occupants' exhalations could rival it!
    - regularjack 4y ago
      They drawed the line, the line is electric.
    - ben_w 4y ago
      Hybrid cars are already a thing — and a neat thing at that, I'm glad they exist — but I'm not the one who gets to draw the line, and the people who did, have done so with (hopefully) better forecasts than I have access to.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
black3r 4y ago
> Poland had called the law unrealistic and said it risked increasing car prices. 12 years is enough time to heavily invest in public transport so that most people won't need a car at all, then increased car prices won't matter....
- New_California 4y ago
  But that would be a regress of civilization, not progress! The civilization progress is to have much more private transport and also somewhat more public transport.
  - HPsquared 4y ago
    Some people bemoan cars as a 20th-century anachronism. They forget that trains/trams/buses are from the 19th century and were superseded by cars. The e-scooter for hire is truly a 21st-century innovation, though. That, and the self-driving car.
    - mantas 4y ago
      While private horse transport did exist for hundreds of years before that. Yes, it was slow and going longer distances was expensive. Yet the idea of personal transit is very natural.
- fruit2020 4y ago
  Thx for telling me what I need :) Only the rich will need a car
- spaniard89277 4y ago
  That's impossible to achieve. Not in 12 not in 50. It's not possible to cover with public transport all the places where cars can go. It's not capital nor operationally possible. What we will have is another strong wave of population concentrating in cities. Any economic activity outside of beaten paths will be very expensive. Because we are freaking retarded with housing in the west, people will lose the freedom private cars can give (because for most modal income people in europe, electric cars are simply not feasible), prices will increase even more. This happening while we have to deal with ageing and climate change, thus modal incomes will become efectively poor. Millions of rent slaves who have no savings and purchasing power, nor ability to scape because they can't move to live elsewhere where prices are lower, and commute to their job. Of course a combination of market + planning could, potentially solve this (kind of). But it's not going to happen because in Europe pensioners and near-to-be-pensioners rule everything, and they are so selfish and so short-sighted that they will dry public budgets until they collapse the system. The future of Europe is basically set in stone. France and Spain are very clear examples of what's ahead for everyone else. France on how a good chunk of the population is completely stupid and blind to the problem, and Spain on how politicians are willing to sacrifice a country to please pensioners. It's sad, but it is what it is.
abdellah123 4y ago
This is utterly nonesense. Do you produce electricity without CO2 emissions? And what about those batteries?! Last week, the battery for my cordless vaccum cleaner went flat. And to my surprise it costs half the price of the vaccum cleaner. But a bigger surprise was that they stopped making it ... even in China! So I need to actually "buy" a new vaccum cleaner. But this time I learnt the lesson, and I like cords now ! Back to the point on electric cars, electricity pollutes, battery production (mining the materials) and lifespan (throwing old batteries) pollutes the environment. So I don't see any point in that ...
- helsinkiandrew 4y ago
  Yes electric cars produce C02 but its less (arguably 1/6) than petroleum cars. Electric cars are actually driving the research into recycling batteries.
- oaiey 4y ago
  Who said that batteries are the only way of energy storage. Hydrogen is discussed because of that. And yes, energy production also need to switch to reach CO2 emission goals.
  - abdellah123 4y ago
    in its e2e cycle, does it not pollute the environment in any way?
    - oaiey 4y ago
      in theory it extract O2 from the air and produces H2O (otherwise known as water). But the devil is in the details. Also, green energy is mostly photovoltaic/wind ... so panel/wing environment costs and transport costs factor in.
  - guardian5x 4y ago
    It's more efficient to charge a battery and drive with an electric motor than use electricity to create hydrogen and use that to drive a car. Hydrogen might become useful for things like planes, where electric isn't good enough yet.
suddenclarity 4y ago
Meanwhile government employees here have to drive their private cars during the winter because the electric cars supplied by the employer can't handle the cold. I'm curious how planned the date is with respect to the consequences. This will shake everything from mechanics to handling crisis such as weather catastrophes or war as in Ukraine. Will we have enough batteries? Will we become dependent on China? Will the average Joe afford a car or will it become a privilege for rich people? Where will we get the power from when we barely can supply existing infrastructure and companies are denied permission to expand? Will we have hundreds of thousands of charging stations on the streets? Lots of questions I'd love to see the answers to.
- LeonidasXIV 4y ago
  Or maybe we should replace individual mobility with useful public transport, as electric vehicles are not a general solution due to all the issues you're pointing out and many more.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    There is already massive work planned on that axis across the EU, with multi-billion investments in various important (at the EU and local levels) transit projects. https://cinea.ec.europa.eu/news-events/news/transport-infrastructure-eu-invests-eur-54-billion-support-key-projects-across-continent-2022-06-29_en https://cinea.ec.europa.eu/news-events/news/transport-infras... https://transport.ec.europa.eu/transport-themes/infrastructure-and-investment_en https://transport.ec.europa.eu/transport-themes/infrastructu...
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    This can be done, but it will take decades and major construction activity. Which may be constrained by the fact that steel and concrete production is CO2-heavy too. (And not just that, AFAIK the Netherlands put very strict limits on construction activity because of nitrogen emissions from the construction vehicles.) In the West, a lot of the middle class settlements have spread thin and wide, making public transport inefficient. Redensification is possible, but complicated - it involves a lot of people moving and at least some of them losing their gardens. Meanwhile, construction of new railways or upgrades of existing tracks (including light rail) meets heavy NIMBY opposition on every step, even in countries where rail is widely used for commute (such as in Czechia). In contemporary developed civilization, it is much easier to ban than to build.
lnsru 4y ago
You'll own nothing. And you'll be happy! <- welcome to the new world. All cheap Dacias (cheap European car brand) will be gone. So the mobility for lower income people. With automotive industry gone European de-industrialization will be already far far ahead. And afterwards Europe will loose all the significance in the world.
- sofixa 4y ago
  EVs are still vehicles that are owned. Regarding Dacia, they have an EV, the Spring, which starts at 20k euros (without counting in a 5k "eco bonus", so around 15k), meanwhile their cheapest other car is the smaller Sandero at 12k. 12k/15k isn't a massive difference over the lifetime of a vehicle.
  - lnsru 4y ago
    I see Sandero at 11300€ and Spring 22750€. “Eco Bonus” is 4500€ and is being phased out. Personally I will have luxury car afterwards too. But I know enough less fortunate people still driving VW Golfs from 2002, 2005. They will have hard time. They are not interested in crazy expensive cars with 120 km winter range.
    - regularjack 4y ago
      The fact that all new cars will be electric doesn't magically prevent 2002 Golfs from functioning.
      - HPsquared 4y ago
        If anything, it'll turn them into valuable collectors' items.
      - lnsru 4y ago
        The problem is that Germany isn’t California. There is winter and roads are covered in salt. And old cars rust through and are not road worthy after few welding sessions anymore.
jaclaz 4y ago
I may be wrong, but 2035 is very near and the phaseout seems (to me) like very difficult to achieve. The only zero emissions are EV's and - besides Norway - they represent today only a very small percentage of vehicles, there are of course no problems (besides possibly the scarcity of some materials) in increasing the production of EV's, but the issue (as I see it) will come when plenty of vehicles on the road will be all electric, the need to adapt the current electric grid and adding the needed recharge points (be them private or public) seems like not having been taken into consideration or plans for it are way too optimistic. Poland calling it unrealistic seems appropriate. There are, besides the risk of having too expensive new cars, a lot of other possible downsides, influencing the market of used cars, and creating a "recharging divide" among different countries but also among different cities/locations in a same country.
- johanvts 4y ago
  It’s going to be hard to do, but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done. Ambitious goals like these that actually direct society towards improvements are exactly what we need to tackle climate change, not more foot dragging and excuses.
- csomar 4y ago
  It's not difficult to achieve. It's Europe's only solution now. This is not about CO2-emission, it's about politics. Europe used to control a good part of the world fuel and also had a pipeline to Russia. They no longer have a pipeline and also lost lots of their control on their colonial countries. They have no choice but to find alternative energy sources. Look at what's happening politics-wise in the middle-east.
  - jaclaz 4y ago
    >It's not difficult to achieve. I believe it is extremely difficult to achieve in practice, it being Europe's only solution doesn't make it easier.
dvh 4y ago
I my EU country (Slovakia) 40% of people live in flats. In my suburb lives 25000 (95% in flats) and there is 1 charging station for 3 cars on the entire suburb. There is 0 chance to meet the goal by 2035. In 2035, if a pro-russian party SMER promise withdrawal from EU and allows gas cars again they will have landslide victory and can start importing cheap Russian gas.
- sofixa 4y ago
  Flats doesn't mean there's no parking, the cars still have to park somewhere, either parking garages or lots. From what I've seen most Eastern European countries have parking lots on old buildings, and often underground parking garages on new ones. In both cases adding chargers is possible with the right incentives and subsidies.
  - jaclaz 4y ago
    >In both cases adding chargers is possible with the right incentives and subsidies. Incentives/subsidies may take care of the economical aspect, but the big one is the technical aspect, installing a charging point is the less relevant issue. When you add a charging point you add (considering contemporaneity and what not) at least 1/5 or 1/4 of the nominal charging power, i.e. every 50 kW recharging point you are going to need at least 10 kW more. When you multiply these by a "functional" (as in there are enough charging points for all the cars around[1]) number of charging points the amount of (added) electricity needed is impressive. Besides producing it (with some zero emission method) you need to transport and distribute it, and level peaks. [1] I have no idea of what the "enough" ratio should be but likely it is in the 1:50 - 1:100 ratio, 1 charging point every 100 cars imply 15 cars charged in 24 hours (24/7), which sounds to me very optimistic
  - krzyk 4y ago
    > From what I've seen most Eastern European countries have parking lots on old buildings, and often underground parking garages on new ones. Underground parking on new ones - correct. Parking lots on old buildings - kind of, old buildings were built at the time when fewer people could afford cards -> much less parking spaces than cars.
whitehexagon 4y ago
I switched to off-grid solar last year, and one thing that became instantly clear is that I'll never have enough panels for an electric car, crikey, even running the oven can be a challenge. I really wonder how Europe is gonna manage the extra grid demand given decades of under investment in energy production. More cables to countries still investing in nuclear?
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  Buying more fossil fuels
- wilgertvelinga 4y ago
  It has all been calculated: https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/themes/themes/science-and-technology/22012-researchers-agree-the-world-can-reach-a-100-renewable-energy-system-by-or-before-2050.html https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/themes/themes/science-and-techn...
  - whitehexagon 4y ago
    I dont read news sites (apart from HN of course), but from the link title I get the gist. Sure it's possible to build massive renewable systems across Europe, but these large projects require governmental commitments that exceed elected time frames. For example one of the first things we need if we are to phase out CO2 driving is a decent inter-European rail system. Even going capital to capital can be hard. And since we are running full speed into AI unemployment, let's make that rail system for free, and save some universal benefit payments. I think the free train trials in various countries this year already proved very popular.
    - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
      The EU is in the process of expanding the cross country links via rail. Historically they've been country-centric networks. See https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/europe/europe-trains-eu-rail-projects-sleeper-b2276469.html https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/europe/europe-trains-eu... "10 new rail projects that could revolutionise travelling across Europe by train"
ar9av 4y ago
The charging issue and grid use is a massively overblown problem. You only need to charge your car for a few hours every 300 miles. Nowhere near everyone is always charging all the time. Renewables and stored heat batteries will cover night/low wind loads. Geothermal in the north. Public transit options will continue to improve, electrified bikes make them an even more viable alternative. We’re a clever group of people. The oil drilling to gas available on every fourth corner in the country system is vastly more complex than installing chargers on light poles.
- midasuni 4y ago
  In the U.K. the average car does less than 30 miles a day. Charging overnight would require a draw off less than 1kW. Clearly my house can do that as my kettle is currently boiling and drawing 3kW alone. My shower this morning was nearer 10kW.
  - uc_banana 4y ago
    >Clearly my house can do that as my kettle is currently boiling and drawing 3kW alone. Indeed. When people's kettle usage was much more synchronised (ie, when TV advert breaks were a shared experience by most people), they had to build a power station just to cover this scenario (Dinorwic pumped storage). "Power station" is also quite generous, as it is only storage, and therefore is a net loss to the power grid. Even the most optimistic person has to admit that there's a limit to what can be done spread the additional load of 40 million EVs each needing to charge ~10kWh per day without grid upgrades and investment.
    - midasuni 4y ago
      Except the grid can cope with peak usage into peoples housing when the ovens are on etc. Sure you may need some more power stations, but the actual capacity for the wires, substations etc can cope with the kettle at half time of the fa cup final situation, and thus can cope with charging 30 million vehicles.
      - 4y ago
naranha 4y ago
I got down-voted heavily on reddit for this idea, but I still think it's genius: Everybody gets a card with their yearly CO2 budget stored on it. For filling up your car at a gas station, but also for consuming electricity, taking a plane or buying stuff (except low CO2 food) a corresponding amount will be withdrawn from your card. The card is credited weekly, so you can't overspend too much of it. Your saved credits will decline slowly over time. Of course all has to be balanced considering socio-economic factors. The great thing is you can sell your credits to rich people, so it would even reward you for staying at home giving you sort of a minimal income.
- jamil7 4y ago
  Apart from causing all kinds of undesirable side effects and incentives, isn’t this more effectively done with a carbon tax?
  - naranha 4y ago
    Not really, rich people don't care about carbon taxes.
    - jamil7 4y ago
      > rich people don't care about carbon taxes So? What does it have to do with rich people. Tax carbon emissions used to produce goods and services rather than some complicated per person credit system.
- numbers_guy 4y ago
  That would be nice and fair, but that would actually hurt rich people so it would not be implemented. Only laws that affect the poor get implemented.
  - jaclaz 4y ago
    Naah, rich people will buy other (poor) people's allowance.
yosito 4y ago
Some context for Americans as a dual US/EU citizen: for many people, especially near cities, electric cars are already far more practical in the EU than gas cars. And they're far cheaper and more available than they are in the US. A lot of cities in the EU, even in Eastern Europe, have car sharing services that are 100% electric cars. Anytime I need a car in Europe, I just use an app and walk a couple minutes to the nearest electric car. They're pre-charged, have a range of 3-400 km, and are far faster and easier to drive than gas cars. When I spent some time in the US recently, and had to rent a gas car, I felt like I was using ancient technology. It was so sluggish and inconvenient and more expensive. I say this because most Americans have the impression that the US on the cutting edge with technology, but in terms of electric cars, the US is really far behind.
- soco 4y ago
  The local garbage trucks are also all electric, while the public transport was already (let's say 90%).
- jaclaz 4y ago
  You are describing EU as if it was all the same. What you describe may exist (now) in a selected subset of EU cities, but it is not at all common nor ubiquitous all over EU. Please, list the cities you went to that offer these services, very likely they are a handful (i.e. not "a lot") and only in a few countries of EU.
  - yosito 4y ago
    Fair enough. I'm describing Budapest. I'm sure not every EU city is up to Hungary's high standards. ;)
    - jaclaz 4y ago
      You just did it again. How is the situation in Hungary, outside Budapest?
      - 4y ago
jamil7 4y ago
Unsurprising to see Germany creating escape hatches for itself with “e-fuels”.
belorn 4y ago
"The European Commission has pledged, however, to create a legal route for sales of new cars that only run on e-fuels to continue after 2035, after Germany demanded this exemption from the ban." How would someone build an engine that explicitly only run on ethanol and which would reject any mixture which contains gasoline, such as E85.
- HPsquared 4y ago
  The same way they control other emissions: locked-down software in the engine control system. Possible, though often illegal, to circumvent. Edit: the software can detect if the engine is running on ethanol or gasoline (or mixed) by looking at the air/fuel ratio, which is set using the oxygen sensor in the exhaust. It's called flex-fuel. Quite simple for the software to only allow operation on pure ethanol.
credit_guy 4y ago
I like the compromise. Plug-in hybrids with reasonable range (let's say 40 miles) achieve 99% emissions reductions. But don't have to lug around 1000 pounds of battery. Allowing for plug-in hybrids outright would have been a good idea. Allowing only e-fuels is a second best.
- enigma20 4y ago
  Problem is that companies are buying those for tax advantage, and never charge, so CO2 emissions are higher - additional weight of the battery. There was report somewhere, that often such vehicles are never charged.
nradov 4y ago
I guarantee that a significant percentage of the new cars sold in the EU in 2036 will still emit CO2. Reducing CO2 emissions is absolutely something we should do, but the 2035 deadline is totally arbitrary and disconnected from objective reality in terms of manufacturing capacity and charging infrastructure. I predict that as the deadline approaches many exceptions will be granted for plug-in hybrid vehicles and rural areas with limited infrastructure.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  I could also bet that 2035 will set all time historical record on new vehicle "sales".
elforce002 4y ago
Interesting. Will this be replicated in Africa, Asia, LATAM or even the US? The EU as a whole is wealthy enough to test this premise (full electric) and let the rest of the world know the results of this. I'm wondering what would citizens from each EU country say about this?
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  >the US Speaking as an American: Likely only the cities, the coastal ones at that. The rest of the country is far more concerned with practical matters that, for now, can only be satisfied with the energy densities only found in fossil fuels and combustion engines. The reasons for this stem from lack of EV infrastructure to low population densities to trans-continental travel ranges to simple lack of political will and more.
  - elforce002 4y ago
    Thanks for the insights. I don't think I'll see any way these policies being implemented in Asia, Latam, and Africa. These continents need to go from developing economies to developed economies and that could be achieved using fossil fuels (just like the US and the EU did last century). This means no food insecurity, good electrical services, efficient logistics, etc... things the EU and the US are used to by now.
  - throwaway93783 4y ago
    [dead]
Kharvok 4y ago
Electric cars are still far too small for taller than average families to drive. Until there's a viable SUV alternative for 4 6ft+ adults to fit comfortably I don't think electric will take off in the US.
lakomen 4y ago
I don't know... on one hand I welcome a more quiet street and without the gas smell. on the other hand I can't tell if it's really better for our habitat and actually less CO2 producing, because you need to produce those batteries and you have to "load" them, transport them, and what is more efficient than direct conversion vs remotely generated power that needs to be transported to a vehicle. I think it's mostly a lie, a feel good lie that don't help anyone except those wanting to wrestle power from established companies. A paranoid guy might even say it's a plot to destroy Germany's car industry.
- stephen_g 4y ago
  The reduction in localised air- position is huge, yes - real world studies show impressive improvements even with a small displacement of internal combustion cars [1]. As for the other but, no, it’s not worse overall. With a somewhat clean grid, it does take something like 20,000km before you’ve paid back the carbon cost of building the car, but after that, it’s far better. This should improve, too, as things like green steelmaking start to come online. 1. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0048969723003765?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00489...
- guepe 4y ago
  Even on grid using a ton of coal, ev more than compensate extra co2 generated during battery production. On the not so green us grid (average of us), ev save 50% co2 over their lifetime. But the grid is greening and so they are saving more and more. In france it's a factor 5. ICE as the dominant form of locomotion is dead. People don't know it yet. Of course some will be used for specialty work, but they will become a rarity in our lifetime.
- anonyfox 4y ago
  First and foremost, the german car industry already shifted towards producing EVs, and really don't want to see those investments dwindle now, the plan is set and clear, execution and changing production lines just takes a while to execute and they're in the midst of it. No conspiracy needed here, its simply false to assume that a "plot". Secondly, the _real_ solution is to get people to use public transport and build up those capabilities (depends on demand to verify investments). In most places of europe, you can get to nearly any destination you want without a car at all, and we need only carsharing pools in case you really need it. So the optimal transition is public transport/scaling that up, and only have EVs as a fallback for edge cases or special circumstances. Replacing every single individual ICE with an EV is still harmful for the planet, even though its at least not CO2.
dark-star 4y ago
Unless I can get 700+ km out of a (fully charged) EV I'm not getting rid of my cumbustion car. I mean I am okay with a small compromise (currently I can get up to 900km from a single tank), but having to charge 2 or 3 times (especially in winter), each 2+ hours, for a longer cross-country holiday is a no-go for me. I hope they will keep exceptions for e-fuels, or cars used by companies. EVs are just too inconvenient (unless you live and work in a big city and own a house)

126 points by frankjr 4y ago

> The European Commission has pledged, however, to create a legal route for sales of new cars that only run on e-fuels to continue after 2035, after Germany demanded this exemption from the ban. Sigh!

comandillos 4y ago
Is either that or Germany letting their automakers that have not been able to adapt to the new EV era just die... and nobody wants to see what is that impact of that over the whole European economy...
- wongarsu 4y ago
  According to [1] Volkswagen was the third largest producer of EVs in 2022, only behind BYD and Tesla. And BMW and Mercedes Benz both are in the top 10. It's not like German automakers have been sitting on their hands or would just die. The problem is not so much the automakers themselves but their suppliers. Those employ far more people, and EVs just don't need a lot of those parts. 1: https://www.ev-volumes.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/WW-S3-12-2022.png https://www.ev-volumes.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/WW-S3-...
- izacus 4y ago
  All the big German automakers have launched good EVs by now and they've been successful on the market as well in Europe. Which ones are you talking about?
  - censor_me 4y ago
    [dead]
  - comandillos 4y ago
    They provide good alternatives, indeed, but Tesla is still the most sold brand in Europe, and anyone living in Central Europe cannot deny that Tesla is by far the most dominant EV brand. The reason behind it is that there is pretty much nothing in that price range that offers the same as a Model 3 or Y... However, Tesla has sold more vehicles than the ones they can provide support to, so all their service centers are collapsed due to their dealership policy... The European brands need to be more competitive, and although they are on good track for it, I think they are a bit late to the game. Is either that or people noticing that the after sales support of Tesla is inexistent and they start to value the perks of the legacy automakers.
    - izacus 4y ago
      That's because European brands offer more models so your top graphs are fragmented. This is how market competition looks like - having a choice of models and brands not just a single Tesla 3. On top 10, European brands together vastly outsold Tesla - VAG group for example outsold all Tesla models in EU last year.
- arlcode 4y ago
  It's not the automakers. Those have long since started to transition to BEVs and do offer some attractive options which are produced at scale and can often be seen on the streets where I am (not near any of the OEM headquarters). They have also mostly stopped R&D on ICE technology The issue is with the suppliers and suppliers of suppliers which are a backbone of German industry and some of which cannot transition away ICE technology. Of course e-fuels are not going to safe them anyway but their lobbying caused this.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    The automakers did put up initial resistance, some Japanese brands still are. But this particular political compromise is just a libertarian party needing a workaround to avoid to be seen banning something that everyone knows will be obsolete by that time anyway. The EV transition is accelerating, this is just the minimum that could get cross EU support in law today. But individual countries already have their own phase outs.
quic5 4y ago
All because of a single German political party that will struggle to get the required 5% next term. Kinda crazy
go_elmo 4y ago
Not Germany, but the FDP Party is to blame, representing sub 5% subset of voters.
- wongarsu 4y ago
  Arguably the represent 11.5%, since that's how many votes they got. But yeah, their current poll results are a lot worse than that.
  - b3orn 4y ago
    They represent much less, they lost a lot of votes in state parliament elections since the federal election, not just in polls.
- oaiey 4y ago
  Unlimited Speed on Highways = People who drive really fast = People think their time is money = Entrepreneur mindset = FDP key voters. Guess what we Germans are unable to kill either: Adding a generic speed limit so we do not get heart attacks when someone drives 300km behind us. Sucks but is called a compromise. Democracy.
  - samjmck 4y ago
    Genuinely curious: does having no speed limit cause more deaths on the road?
    - mantas 4y ago
      I remember there was a test run Australia and no speed limit didn't increase casualties. Whenever I come over to Germany, driving on autobans feels like a pleasure compared to eastern european highways with a speed limit :/
      - defrost 4y ago
        Four dead was the usual number of casualties? https://www.upi.com/Archives/1994/05/24/Four-die-in-Australian-road-rally/8473769752000/ https://www.upi.com/Archives/1994/05/24/Four-die-in-Australi...
rafale 4y ago
If they they are carbon neutral or near neutral like lithium batteries, then why not?
- henearkr 4y ago
  Air pollution, noise pollution, health problems.
- mr_mitm 4y ago
  We'll be needing any kWh of green electricity we can get, and wasting it on inefficient e-fuels is dumb and wasteful. But I guess everybody has the right to be dumb and wasteful, so here we are.
unwind 4y ago
Sounds annoying, but I had to skim through looking for a definition of "e-fuel" since it was not a term I was accustomed to. Found it: E-fuels are produced by synthesising captured CO2 emissions and hydrogen produced using CO2-free electricity. They are considered carbon neutral because the CO2 released when the fuel is combusted is balanced by the CO2 removed from the atmosphere to produce the fuel. And also learnt that they're also called "electrofuels" [1]. That makes it sound less horrible, except that such production doesn't exist yet at a sensible/interesting scale as far as I understand. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrofuel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrofuel
- rob74 4y ago
  Nevertheless, e-fuel cars are still a step back compared to electric cars: electric cars don't pollute while they're running, but may still generate pollution depending on how the electricity they are charged with was produced, e-fuel cars produce both tailpipe pollution and potentially also electricity generation pollution. But I guess that due to how horrendously expensive e-fuels will be, these vehicles will be so rare that tailpipe pollution won't matter much...
  - cryptonym 4y ago
    e-fuel cars also generate noise, sound pollution. Sad that Germany prevented us from getting rid of that noisy redneck revving his expensive engine in the middle of the city.
    - andrewshadura 4y ago
      All cars generate noise pollution. Most noise in cars is produced by tyres.
      - henearkr 4y ago
        Tyres noises are not what spikes my blood pressure in the middle of the night. Those are engine/tailpipe noises.
New_California 4y ago
Poland and Hungary were also strictly against the ban on selling gasoline cars. So no, it's not only Germany. Whether EU itself will be still a thing in 12+ years to enforce this bullshit ban is another question.
- arlcode 4y ago
  What makes you believe it won't be a thing (or a rebranded version of it)? Unless any of the European countries (even the larger ones) wants to be crushed by the economic weight of the US or China they better stick together. Even most Euro-skeptics seems to get it by now. The fact that Russia is removing itself from the game of economics and has voluntarily killed of European dependency on their gas is reducing inner EU conflict.
  - New_California 4y ago
    Not saying it necessarily will fall apart but there is a possibility. UK is already out. Hungary and Poland are very nasty EU members for lack of a better term. The tension is growing. Personally I would much prefer EU to *reset* to bare free-trade, free-movement, no-borders ethos, removing entirety of central regulations and central governance.
  - lakomen 4y ago
    haha this is so naive I don't know what to say, it's almost cute. I can only wish you open eyes and an open mind capable of thinking your own thoughts. I should know better than to comment on something like this, but sometimes I just can't be helped.
- ihatepython 4y ago
  > Whether EU itself will be still a thing in 12+ years to enforce this bullshit ban is another question. You are correct, the EU is going to break up, definitely before 2035, and probably sooner rather than later. We are at the beginning of a serious financial crisis, this time it's a sovereign debt crisis, caused by going to negative interest rates in 2014 (among other reasons).

helsinkiandrew 4y ago

> EU countries approve 2035 phaseout of CO2-emitting cars That's quite a misleading headline from Reuters - they're not phasing out C02 emitting cars, they're banning sale of new CO2 emitting cars. Existing CO2 cars will continue to be legal, although probably become much more expensive to run than electric cars, and of course could be outlawed by further legislation.

devoutsalsa 4y ago
I'm going to miss really simple cars with barely any electronics in them.
- bruce343434 4y ago
  In theory, electric cars are simpler. Fewer moving parts and all that. But _modern_ cars are full of electronic doodads. Theoretically there is nothing stopping someone from developing a barebones electric car.
  - throw_pm23 4y ago
    Theoretically no, but practically the big manufacturers lobby to label smart electronics as safety features, so if you want to sell a simple car, you face the uphill battle of explaining why it scores low on safety ratings (which are mostly a checkbox-list of smart features).
    - WJW 4y ago
      TBH, things like airbags, power steering and automatic traction control do make the car safer.
  - uc_banana 4y ago
    Once you've used the necessary amounts of up-to-date electronic design techniques and components to build the battery management, motor controller and charging systems in your "barebones" EV, adding some multicolour lighting and a touchscreen is a tiny step. A milkfloat is nearest thing to a "barebones" EV.

HPsquared 4y ago

Technically any car with passengers emits CO2.

ben_w 4y ago
Technically humans have radioactive breath, too. It's not generally considered an important factor.
- HPsquared 4y ago
  Oh indeed, it's just where do you draw the line? If a car has a very small range-extender engine that's only used occasionally, the occupants' exhalations could rival it!
  - regularjack 4y ago
    They drawed the line, the line is electric.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    Hybrid cars are already a thing — and a neat thing at that, I'm glad they exist — but I'm not the one who gets to draw the line, and the people who did, have done so with (hopefully) better forecasts than I have access to.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

black3r 4y ago

> Poland had called the law unrealistic and said it risked increasing car prices. 12 years is enough time to heavily invest in public transport so that most people won't need a car at all, then increased car prices won't matter....

New_California 4y ago
But that would be a regress of civilization, not progress! The civilization progress is to have much more private transport and also somewhat more public transport.
- HPsquared 4y ago
  Some people bemoan cars as a 20th-century anachronism. They forget that trains/trams/buses are from the 19th century and were superseded by cars. The e-scooter for hire is truly a 21st-century innovation, though. That, and the self-driving car.
  - mantas 4y ago
    While private horse transport did exist for hundreds of years before that. Yes, it was slow and going longer distances was expensive. Yet the idea of personal transit is very natural.
fruit2020 4y ago
Thx for telling me what I need :) Only the rich will need a car
spaniard89277 4y ago
That's impossible to achieve. Not in 12 not in 50. It's not possible to cover with public transport all the places where cars can go. It's not capital nor operationally possible. What we will have is another strong wave of population concentrating in cities. Any economic activity outside of beaten paths will be very expensive. Because we are freaking retarded with housing in the west, people will lose the freedom private cars can give (because for most modal income people in europe, electric cars are simply not feasible), prices will increase even more. This happening while we have to deal with ageing and climate change, thus modal incomes will become efectively poor. Millions of rent slaves who have no savings and purchasing power, nor ability to scape because they can't move to live elsewhere where prices are lower, and commute to their job. Of course a combination of market + planning could, potentially solve this (kind of). But it's not going to happen because in Europe pensioners and near-to-be-pensioners rule everything, and they are so selfish and so short-sighted that they will dry public budgets until they collapse the system. The future of Europe is basically set in stone. France and Spain are very clear examples of what's ahead for everyone else. France on how a good chunk of the population is completely stupid and blind to the problem, and Spain on how politicians are willing to sacrifice a country to please pensioners. It's sad, but it is what it is.

abdellah123 4y ago

This is utterly nonesense. Do you produce electricity without CO2 emissions? And what about those batteries?! Last week, the battery for my cordless vaccum cleaner went flat. And to my surprise it costs half the price of the vaccum cleaner. But a bigger surprise was that they stopped making it ... even in China! So I need to actually "buy" a new vaccum cleaner. But this time I learnt the lesson, and I like cords now ! Back to the point on electric cars, electricity pollutes, battery production (mining the materials) and lifespan (throwing old batteries) pollutes the environment. So I don't see any point in that ...

helsinkiandrew 4y ago
Yes electric cars produce C02 but its less (arguably 1/6) than petroleum cars. Electric cars are actually driving the research into recycling batteries.
oaiey 4y ago
Who said that batteries are the only way of energy storage. Hydrogen is discussed because of that. And yes, energy production also need to switch to reach CO2 emission goals.
- abdellah123 4y ago
  in its e2e cycle, does it not pollute the environment in any way?
  - oaiey 4y ago
    in theory it extract O2 from the air and produces H2O (otherwise known as water). But the devil is in the details. Also, green energy is mostly photovoltaic/wind ... so panel/wing environment costs and transport costs factor in.
- guardian5x 4y ago
  It's more efficient to charge a battery and drive with an electric motor than use electricity to create hydrogen and use that to drive a car. Hydrogen might become useful for things like planes, where electric isn't good enough yet.

suddenclarity 4y ago

Meanwhile government employees here have to drive their private cars during the winter because the electric cars supplied by the employer can't handle the cold. I'm curious how planned the date is with respect to the consequences. This will shake everything from mechanics to handling crisis such as weather catastrophes or war as in Ukraine. Will we have enough batteries? Will we become dependent on China? Will the average Joe afford a car or will it become a privilege for rich people? Where will we get the power from when we barely can supply existing infrastructure and companies are denied permission to expand? Will we have hundreds of thousands of charging stations on the streets? Lots of questions I'd love to see the answers to.

LeonidasXIV 4y ago
Or maybe we should replace individual mobility with useful public transport, as electric vehicles are not a general solution due to all the issues you're pointing out and many more.
- sofixa 4y ago
  There is already massive work planned on that axis across the EU, with multi-billion investments in various important (at the EU and local levels) transit projects. https://cinea.ec.europa.eu/news-events/news/transport-infrastructure-eu-invests-eur-54-billion-support-key-projects-across-continent-2022-06-29_en https://cinea.ec.europa.eu/news-events/news/transport-infras... https://transport.ec.europa.eu/transport-themes/infrastructure-and-investment_en https://transport.ec.europa.eu/transport-themes/infrastructu...
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  This can be done, but it will take decades and major construction activity. Which may be constrained by the fact that steel and concrete production is CO2-heavy too. (And not just that, AFAIK the Netherlands put very strict limits on construction activity because of nitrogen emissions from the construction vehicles.) In the West, a lot of the middle class settlements have spread thin and wide, making public transport inefficient. Redensification is possible, but complicated - it involves a lot of people moving and at least some of them losing their gardens. Meanwhile, construction of new railways or upgrades of existing tracks (including light rail) meets heavy NIMBY opposition on every step, even in countries where rail is widely used for commute (such as in Czechia). In contemporary developed civilization, it is much easier to ban than to build.

lnsru 4y ago

You'll own nothing. And you'll be happy! <- welcome to the new world. All cheap Dacias (cheap European car brand) will be gone. So the mobility for lower income people. With automotive industry gone European de-industrialization will be already far far ahead. And afterwards Europe will loose all the significance in the world.

sofixa 4y ago
EVs are still vehicles that are owned. Regarding Dacia, they have an EV, the Spring, which starts at 20k euros (without counting in a 5k "eco bonus", so around 15k), meanwhile their cheapest other car is the smaller Sandero at 12k. 12k/15k isn't a massive difference over the lifetime of a vehicle.
- lnsru 4y ago
  I see Sandero at 11300€ and Spring 22750€. “Eco Bonus” is 4500€ and is being phased out. Personally I will have luxury car afterwards too. But I know enough less fortunate people still driving VW Golfs from 2002, 2005. They will have hard time. They are not interested in crazy expensive cars with 120 km winter range.
  - regularjack 4y ago
    The fact that all new cars will be electric doesn't magically prevent 2002 Golfs from functioning.
    - HPsquared 4y ago
      If anything, it'll turn them into valuable collectors' items.
    - lnsru 4y ago
      The problem is that Germany isn’t California. There is winter and roads are covered in salt. And old cars rust through and are not road worthy after few welding sessions anymore.

jaclaz 4y ago

I may be wrong, but 2035 is very near and the phaseout seems (to me) like very difficult to achieve. The only zero emissions are EV's and - besides Norway - they represent today only a very small percentage of vehicles, there are of course no problems (besides possibly the scarcity of some materials) in increasing the production of EV's, but the issue (as I see it) will come when plenty of vehicles on the road will be all electric, the need to adapt the current electric grid and adding the needed recharge points (be them private or public) seems like not having been taken into consideration or plans for it are way too optimistic. Poland calling it unrealistic seems appropriate. There are, besides the risk of having too expensive new cars, a lot of other possible downsides, influencing the market of used cars, and creating a "recharging divide" among different countries but also among different cities/locations in a same country.

johanvts 4y ago
It’s going to be hard to do, but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done. Ambitious goals like these that actually direct society towards improvements are exactly what we need to tackle climate change, not more foot dragging and excuses.
csomar 4y ago
It's not difficult to achieve. It's Europe's only solution now. This is not about CO2-emission, it's about politics. Europe used to control a good part of the world fuel and also had a pipeline to Russia. They no longer have a pipeline and also lost lots of their control on their colonial countries. They have no choice but to find alternative energy sources. Look at what's happening politics-wise in the middle-east.
- jaclaz 4y ago
  >It's not difficult to achieve. I believe it is extremely difficult to achieve in practice, it being Europe's only solution doesn't make it easier.

dvh 4y ago

I my EU country (Slovakia) 40% of people live in flats. In my suburb lives 25000 (95% in flats) and there is 1 charging station for 3 cars on the entire suburb. There is 0 chance to meet the goal by 2035. In 2035, if a pro-russian party SMER promise withdrawal from EU and allows gas cars again they will have landslide victory and can start importing cheap Russian gas.

sofixa 4y ago
Flats doesn't mean there's no parking, the cars still have to park somewhere, either parking garages or lots. From what I've seen most Eastern European countries have parking lots on old buildings, and often underground parking garages on new ones. In both cases adding chargers is possible with the right incentives and subsidies.
- jaclaz 4y ago
  >In both cases adding chargers is possible with the right incentives and subsidies. Incentives/subsidies may take care of the economical aspect, but the big one is the technical aspect, installing a charging point is the less relevant issue. When you add a charging point you add (considering contemporaneity and what not) at least 1/5 or 1/4 of the nominal charging power, i.e. every 50 kW recharging point you are going to need at least 10 kW more. When you multiply these by a "functional" (as in there are enough charging points for all the cars around[1]) number of charging points the amount of (added) electricity needed is impressive. Besides producing it (with some zero emission method) you need to transport and distribute it, and level peaks. [1] I have no idea of what the "enough" ratio should be but likely it is in the 1:50 - 1:100 ratio, 1 charging point every 100 cars imply 15 cars charged in 24 hours (24/7), which sounds to me very optimistic
- krzyk 4y ago
  > From what I've seen most Eastern European countries have parking lots on old buildings, and often underground parking garages on new ones. Underground parking on new ones - correct. Parking lots on old buildings - kind of, old buildings were built at the time when fewer people could afford cards -> much less parking spaces than cars.

whitehexagon 4y ago

I switched to off-grid solar last year, and one thing that became instantly clear is that I'll never have enough panels for an electric car, crikey, even running the oven can be a challenge. I really wonder how Europe is gonna manage the extra grid demand given decades of under investment in energy production. More cables to countries still investing in nuclear?

nonethewiser 4y ago
Buying more fossil fuels
wilgertvelinga 4y ago
It has all been calculated: https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/themes/themes/science-and-technology/22012-researchers-agree-the-world-can-reach-a-100-renewable-energy-system-by-or-before-2050.html https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/themes/themes/science-and-techn...
- whitehexagon 4y ago
  I dont read news sites (apart from HN of course), but from the link title I get the gist. Sure it's possible to build massive renewable systems across Europe, but these large projects require governmental commitments that exceed elected time frames. For example one of the first things we need if we are to phase out CO2 driving is a decent inter-European rail system. Even going capital to capital can be hard. And since we are running full speed into AI unemployment, let's make that rail system for free, and save some universal benefit payments. I think the free train trials in various countries this year already proved very popular.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    The EU is in the process of expanding the cross country links via rail. Historically they've been country-centric networks. See https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/europe/europe-trains-eu-rail-projects-sleeper-b2276469.html https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/europe/europe-trains-eu... "10 new rail projects that could revolutionise travelling across Europe by train"

ar9av 4y ago

The charging issue and grid use is a massively overblown problem. You only need to charge your car for a few hours every 300 miles. Nowhere near everyone is always charging all the time. Renewables and stored heat batteries will cover night/low wind loads. Geothermal in the north. Public transit options will continue to improve, electrified bikes make them an even more viable alternative. We’re a clever group of people. The oil drilling to gas available on every fourth corner in the country system is vastly more complex than installing chargers on light poles.

midasuni 4y ago
In the U.K. the average car does less than 30 miles a day. Charging overnight would require a draw off less than 1kW. Clearly my house can do that as my kettle is currently boiling and drawing 3kW alone. My shower this morning was nearer 10kW.
- uc_banana 4y ago
  >Clearly my house can do that as my kettle is currently boiling and drawing 3kW alone. Indeed. When people's kettle usage was much more synchronised (ie, when TV advert breaks were a shared experience by most people), they had to build a power station just to cover this scenario (Dinorwic pumped storage). "Power station" is also quite generous, as it is only storage, and therefore is a net loss to the power grid. Even the most optimistic person has to admit that there's a limit to what can be done spread the additional load of 40 million EVs each needing to charge ~10kWh per day without grid upgrades and investment.
  - midasuni 4y ago
    Except the grid can cope with peak usage into peoples housing when the ovens are on etc. Sure you may need some more power stations, but the actual capacity for the wires, substations etc can cope with the kettle at half time of the fa cup final situation, and thus can cope with charging 30 million vehicles.
    - 4y ago

naranha 4y ago

I got down-voted heavily on reddit for this idea, but I still think it's genius: Everybody gets a card with their yearly CO2 budget stored on it. For filling up your car at a gas station, but also for consuming electricity, taking a plane or buying stuff (except low CO2 food) a corresponding amount will be withdrawn from your card. The card is credited weekly, so you can't overspend too much of it. Your saved credits will decline slowly over time. Of course all has to be balanced considering socio-economic factors. The great thing is you can sell your credits to rich people, so it would even reward you for staying at home giving you sort of a minimal income.

jamil7 4y ago
Apart from causing all kinds of undesirable side effects and incentives, isn’t this more effectively done with a carbon tax?
- naranha 4y ago
  Not really, rich people don't care about carbon taxes.
  - jamil7 4y ago
    > rich people don't care about carbon taxes So? What does it have to do with rich people. Tax carbon emissions used to produce goods and services rather than some complicated per person credit system.
numbers_guy 4y ago
That would be nice and fair, but that would actually hurt rich people so it would not be implemented. Only laws that affect the poor get implemented.
- jaclaz 4y ago
  Naah, rich people will buy other (poor) people's allowance.

yosito 4y ago

Some context for Americans as a dual US/EU citizen: for many people, especially near cities, electric cars are already far more practical in the EU than gas cars. And they're far cheaper and more available than they are in the US. A lot of cities in the EU, even in Eastern Europe, have car sharing services that are 100% electric cars. Anytime I need a car in Europe, I just use an app and walk a couple minutes to the nearest electric car. They're pre-charged, have a range of 3-400 km, and are far faster and easier to drive than gas cars. When I spent some time in the US recently, and had to rent a gas car, I felt like I was using ancient technology. It was so sluggish and inconvenient and more expensive. I say this because most Americans have the impression that the US on the cutting edge with technology, but in terms of electric cars, the US is really far behind.

soco 4y ago
The local garbage trucks are also all electric, while the public transport was already (let's say 90%).
jaclaz 4y ago
You are describing EU as if it was all the same. What you describe may exist (now) in a selected subset of EU cities, but it is not at all common nor ubiquitous all over EU. Please, list the cities you went to that offer these services, very likely they are a handful (i.e. not "a lot") and only in a few countries of EU.
- yosito 4y ago
  Fair enough. I'm describing Budapest. I'm sure not every EU city is up to Hungary's high standards. ;)
  - jaclaz 4y ago
    You just did it again. How is the situation in Hungary, outside Budapest?
    - 4y ago

jamil7 4y ago

Unsurprising to see Germany creating escape hatches for itself with “e-fuels”.

belorn 4y ago

"The European Commission has pledged, however, to create a legal route for sales of new cars that only run on e-fuels to continue after 2035, after Germany demanded this exemption from the ban." How would someone build an engine that explicitly only run on ethanol and which would reject any mixture which contains gasoline, such as E85.

HPsquared 4y ago
The same way they control other emissions: locked-down software in the engine control system. Possible, though often illegal, to circumvent. Edit: the software can detect if the engine is running on ethanol or gasoline (or mixed) by looking at the air/fuel ratio, which is set using the oxygen sensor in the exhaust. It's called flex-fuel. Quite simple for the software to only allow operation on pure ethanol.

credit_guy 4y ago

I like the compromise. Plug-in hybrids with reasonable range (let's say 40 miles) achieve 99% emissions reductions. But don't have to lug around 1000 pounds of battery. Allowing for plug-in hybrids outright would have been a good idea. Allowing only e-fuels is a second best.

enigma20 4y ago
Problem is that companies are buying those for tax advantage, and never charge, so CO2 emissions are higher - additional weight of the battery. There was report somewhere, that often such vehicles are never charged.

nradov 4y ago

I guarantee that a significant percentage of the new cars sold in the EU in 2036 will still emit CO2. Reducing CO2 emissions is absolutely something we should do, but the 2035 deadline is totally arbitrary and disconnected from objective reality in terms of manufacturing capacity and charging infrastructure. I predict that as the deadline approaches many exceptions will be granted for plug-in hybrid vehicles and rural areas with limited infrastructure.

Ekaros 4y ago
I could also bet that 2035 will set all time historical record on new vehicle "sales".

elforce002 4y ago

Interesting. Will this be replicated in Africa, Asia, LATAM or even the US? The EU as a whole is wealthy enough to test this premise (full electric) and let the rest of the world know the results of this. I'm wondering what would citizens from each EU country say about this?

Dalewyn 4y ago
>the US Speaking as an American: Likely only the cities, the coastal ones at that. The rest of the country is far more concerned with practical matters that, for now, can only be satisfied with the energy densities only found in fossil fuels and combustion engines. The reasons for this stem from lack of EV infrastructure to low population densities to trans-continental travel ranges to simple lack of political will and more.
- elforce002 4y ago
  Thanks for the insights. I don't think I'll see any way these policies being implemented in Asia, Latam, and Africa. These continents need to go from developing economies to developed economies and that could be achieved using fossil fuels (just like the US and the EU did last century). This means no food insecurity, good electrical services, efficient logistics, etc... things the EU and the US are used to by now.
- throwaway93783 4y ago
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Kharvok 4y ago

Electric cars are still far too small for taller than average families to drive. Until there's a viable SUV alternative for 4 6ft+ adults to fit comfortably I don't think electric will take off in the US.

lakomen 4y ago

I don't know... on one hand I welcome a more quiet street and without the gas smell. on the other hand I can't tell if it's really better for our habitat and actually less CO2 producing, because you need to produce those batteries and you have to "load" them, transport them, and what is more efficient than direct conversion vs remotely generated power that needs to be transported to a vehicle. I think it's mostly a lie, a feel good lie that don't help anyone except those wanting to wrestle power from established companies. A paranoid guy might even say it's a plot to destroy Germany's car industry.

stephen_g 4y ago
The reduction in localised air- position is huge, yes - real world studies show impressive improvements even with a small displacement of internal combustion cars [1]. As for the other but, no, it’s not worse overall. With a somewhat clean grid, it does take something like 20,000km before you’ve paid back the carbon cost of building the car, but after that, it’s far better. This should improve, too, as things like green steelmaking start to come online. 1. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0048969723003765?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00489...
guepe 4y ago
Even on grid using a ton of coal, ev more than compensate extra co2 generated during battery production. On the not so green us grid (average of us), ev save 50% co2 over their lifetime. But the grid is greening and so they are saving more and more. In france it's a factor 5. ICE as the dominant form of locomotion is dead. People don't know it yet. Of course some will be used for specialty work, but they will become a rarity in our lifetime.
anonyfox 4y ago
First and foremost, the german car industry already shifted towards producing EVs, and really don't want to see those investments dwindle now, the plan is set and clear, execution and changing production lines just takes a while to execute and they're in the midst of it. No conspiracy needed here, its simply false to assume that a "plot". Secondly, the _real_ solution is to get people to use public transport and build up those capabilities (depends on demand to verify investments). In most places of europe, you can get to nearly any destination you want without a car at all, and we need only carsharing pools in case you really need it. So the optimal transition is public transport/scaling that up, and only have EVs as a fallback for edge cases or special circumstances. Replacing every single individual ICE with an EV is still harmful for the planet, even though its at least not CO2.

dark-star 4y ago

Unless I can get 700+ km out of a (fully charged) EV I'm not getting rid of my cumbustion car. I mean I am okay with a small compromise (currently I can get up to 900km from a single tank), but having to charge 2 or 3 times (especially in winter), each 2+ hours, for a longer cross-country holiday is a no-go for me. I hope they will keep exceptions for e-fuels, or cars used by companies. EVs are just too inconvenient (unless you live and work in a big city and own a house)