8 ms·

Why the Myers-Briggs test is meaningless

49 points by fagnerbrack 4y ago

bearjaws 4y ago
Had a job that wanted me to do a PROCTORED Myers Briggs test as part of the interview process. In addition to a IQ test. Thanked them for their time and moved on... My recruiter didn't understand why I was running for the door.
DJBunnies 4y ago
Meaningless is pretty subjective here, plenty of us derive joy from such things.
giraffe_lady 4y ago
I'm not a fan of it and I definitely hate its popularity in companies, where it truly has no valid use imo. But people do seem to find it useful as a tool for personal introspection, making it similar to tarot, astrology, i ching, etc. Meaningless maybe but not worthless per se.
- runarberg 4y ago
  I think the difference is that tarots and astrology are mainly used recreationaly while personal psychology is used more by professionals claiming benefits then by the general public just having fun. Horoscope authors are more like folk preachers or entertainers than scientists, personality psychologists are still mascaraing as scientists. While plenty of people are being scammed using astrology, way more people are just spending little to no money just having fun. Personality psychology is overwhelmingly businessmen selling snake oil.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    Yes good point.
hackitup7 4y ago
I'm not making the claim that MBTI is useful, but anecdotally people who are familiar with it seem to be able to guess close acquaintances' types with above chance accuracy. Leads me to suspect that it's getting at something, although perhaps in a coarse or low utility way. I've never seen someone guess horoscope signs above chance.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  From my understanding of it and having to take it a couple times at different jobs, it seems like a reasonably coherent categorization system for certain aspects of personality. Where it falls apart is making predictions about how individuals will react to a certain situation or how people will interact with each other. In that I've never seen it do better than just what a socially competent person would accomplish by going with their judgement and intuition, and often worse.
  - klodolph 4y ago
    I think it’s not actually testing personality, but some kind of way that people choose to present themselves. The difference is that personality is supposed to be more stable over time and across different circumstances.
  - codersfocus 4y ago
    http://www.socionics.com/rel/rel.htm http://www.socionics.com/rel/rel.htm This is a link that describes how people will relate with each other, and I’ve found it to be accurate. Note the type encoding system is slightly different from MBTI, for introverts the last letter has to be flipped. I want to point out that MBTI is basically a brochure version of an underlying theory. The value comes from understanding the individual cognitive functions themselves. Once you understand that, you can know the _process_ someone uses to think and make decisions. That gives you a better idea of why they think the way they do, especially if their cfs are different / confusing to you. It’s like being able to boot up someone else’s mental… OS in a VM (taxing and slow, but if you really want to run something, necessary.)
- watwut 4y ago
pclmulqdq 4y ago
I have done the real Myers-Briggs process a few times. It takes a day for a small team, and includes several interviews, the test, and meetings. The test on its own is pretty pseudoscientific (and gameable), but if you know someone well you can usually guess their MBTI type without a test. However, the whole process is not a bad medium for introspecting on whether your process works for the individuals on the team, using the "scientific personality profiles" you just developed to talk about your style. For example, one team I was on adopted a meeting agenda before our weekly meetings (the Amazon "6-pager" idea), ostensibly because of the prevalence of IxxJ personality types on the team, and it helped several people become more open. As I understand it, there are now better personality inventories and processes for this, but Myers-Briggs was the OG.
- jackmott42 4y ago
  The idea that you know something is nonsense, but you make some excuse in your mind for how it is useful nonetheless is such a common, human thing. You see the same "logic" with lie detector tests. "Oh we know it is useless but its still useful because of nonsense games we play with it" Just stop, accept that it is bogus and don't do it.
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    I'm not saying it's useless at all. I'm saying that the online bullshit that everyone thinks when you talk about "the MBTI" is useless. The actual MBTI is useful when used in its intended context, and no more. When people take the test out of context, it becomes no more than a horoscope. For most personality inventories, that context is in terms of determining what makes people comfortable in interpersonal relations. It doesn't predict the kinds of jobs you like (even though people online say it does). It doesn't predict your income earnings potential. It doesn't predict how you will act in any given circumstance. It doesn't predict how you will feel in any given circumstance. Its only value is in helping to determine what kinds of interactions you are most comfortable with. This is the same as other psychology tests, like those online autism, ADD, or psychopathy tests that people are also obsessed with. The paper test literally means nothing on its own. It is used to follow up on a clinical observation. Also, by the way, the Myers-Briggs test itself has had a hard time standing up to scrutiny because the test is very transparent about what it's testing for, so any test-taker can manipulate their answers to get the result they want very easily. Modern personality tests are usually some variant of the "big five" (which is kind of like Myers-Briggs plus one). The tests have gotten better at not convincing you to manipulate the result. A lot of people who are engineers are uncomfortable with this kind of arrangement, but it's how a lot of psychology (and medicine, for that matter) works due to the uncertainty in the testing vehicles, which is substantial.
paiute 4y ago
I find the N types enjoy and find value in MBTI. S types seem to hate it because it's not scientific enough. As an N type I find the big five worthless for helping me understand interactions with others. MBTI wasn't made to be a correlate in your study; I guess it's meaningless.
- czbond 4y ago
  > S types seem to hate it because it's not scientific enough. N types can make the leap. S types (of the many I've known) believe they're intuitive until actually experiencing they may not be, or are too data focused to allow an intuitive leap to be made. And that bothers S more than N. Every ESTJ / ISTJ wants to be an INTJ.
DrThunder 4y ago
I absolutely despise these "personality" tests. I've done the DISC assessment bs at multiple jobs. I'm to the point where I think I'm going to purposely answer "wrong" in the future to get some odd letter and throw the hardcore DISC fans off. We have a few people that continuously walk around talking about whether they're D, or "oh that's such an S thing to do". Yes... all people's personalities fit into some stupid 4 personality acronym.
- Clubber 4y ago
  >We have a few people that continuously walk around talking about whether they're D, or "oh that's such an S thing to do". Yes... all people's personalities fit into some stupid 4 personality acronym. It seems like it's only a stone's throw away from astrology.
  - blitzar 4y ago
    > It seems like it's only a stone's throw away from astrology. That is such a Taurus thing to say.
pxeger1 4y ago
Every time I do this test I get about 50% on three of the four categories, and the random noise in my precise answers means I get a different "personality type" every time.
Overtonwindow 4y ago
Personality tests are just another way to discriminate. They have absolutely no basis in fact in predicting how a person is going to behave or perform in a given situation. Corporations, and society in general, put far too much faith in trying to read the tea leaves of human cognition and behavior through shortcuts.
headstorm 4y ago
25 years ago, a friend quickly learned how to answer an online MBTI so that he could consistently score neutral on all four axes. I think that was the most entertaining approach that I've seen.
czbond 4y ago
I've never understood people outside of a work context. They're just balls of emotion that to me appear to do illogical things for random reasons. In an effort to understand, about 10 years back I dove heavily into the traits of the individual "letters" and the types from MBTI. Even if it isn't perfect, it is a framework for me to arrive at a consistent typing systems for anyone. I can now accurately predict people, what they'll do in most circumstances, and then their likes/dislikes. 16 buckets gives you a small group of permutations to start with - and then to whittle a person into for refinement. The fallacy is to approach the test as an absolute, rather than for proclivities. Each person of a "type" will still have unique differences. Humans really aren't that unique, bell curve and all.... x of 100 groupings helped me understand that.
- polyterative 4y ago
  > Even if it isn't perfect, it is a framework for me to arrive at a consistent typing systems for anyone. I had the same exact experience.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
  > Even if it isn't perfect, it is a framework for me to arrive at a consistent typing systems for anyone It's almost like all models are wrong, but some are useful.
- blitzar 4y ago
  If you use starsigns and the current alignment of the planets you will get similar results.
  - meh8881 4y ago
    Star signs are the belief that you have a label which causes you have traits. A personality framework assigns you a label based on the traits you have. They’re basically the opposite of each other.
    - shahbazac 4y ago
      What a great way to say it!
haunter 4y ago
MBTI is pretty much like astrology/horoscope Also it's funny how if you see someone on Twitter or on dating site putting it up on their profile it's like 90% of a time is an INTP/J
- meh8881 4y ago
  I think there is some irony in claiming a certain behavior seems to be distinct to one personality archetype as evidence that the personality framework is meaningless.
drakonka 4y ago
This reminds me of the "CliftonStrengths" assessment, which I've been trying to get more information on. It's doing the rounds in the indie publishing community right now and people get so excited about how they're "high strategic" or "low intuitive" or whatever, you just hear it everywhere. There's authors buying books, courses, coaching, etc. I _thought_ all of this stuff was disproved a long time ago, but I still haven't figured out if this "Clifton" one is somehow different or if it's just authors falling for people charging a bunch of money to train them on their "strengths" as if they mean anything. I suppose even if they _don't_ mean anything, if they help the person introspect and figure out what works for them it's worth it in some way. It just really grinds my gears to see these "consultants" or "coaches" talk about this stuff as if it is totally evidence-based and backed by science. Unless maybe Clifton is different somehow?
borbulon 4y ago
"Oh Agent Starling, you think you can dissect me with this blunt little tool?" Look, I think they're useful as a general idea, though I'd never use them to tell me anything concrete, even with the caveat that all people in the situation are acting honestly. I'm just most interested in the companies who require the tests as part of their onboarding. If me taking the test is a prerequisite for me working there, what does that say about your organization?
- czbond 4y ago
  Why wouldn't a company want to have a better understanding of who they are hiring? A manager can use them to shape the role, shape the goals, and approach people differently. Example: If you are a xxTJ "thinker judger" I know that you'll be upfront, may use coarse wording, cut to the chase, and may bulldoze people (I am xNTJ). An "xxFP" "Feeler Perceiver" will internalize words and apply emotional meaning, empathize with people easily & understand people, but be put off by "in your face" types.
francisofascii 4y ago
I think understanding personality types is pretty useful, actually. The trouble arises when people don't acknowledge the traits are on a continuum and could change over time. So the letter classification can be misleading. For these to be predictive, I thing they are useful but must be joined with other variables. Air temperature is not meaningless when predicting the weather, but it is not sufficient either.
dynm 4y ago
The four axes of the myers-briggs test are strongly correlated with four axes of the big five test. This presents a serious challenge for anyone who (like this article) claims the myers-briggs test is meaningless while the big five is not meaningless. (I wrote a post making this argument at greater length: https://dynomight.net/in-defense-of-myers-briggs.html https://dynomight.net/in-defense-of-myers-briggs.html )
- czbond 4y ago
  Thanks for linking your post.
paulsutter 4y ago
I’m fascinated by people who work so hard to fight Myers-Briggs. It’s like the observation that atheists take religion too seriously. How is Myers Briggs important enough to attack?
- analog31 4y ago
  Believing that someone can judge your thoughts invokes a strong feeling of revulsion in some people. It's also generally bad news for society.
a13o 4y ago
More than meaningless I think MBTI is dangerous. It creates a false dichotomy between introvert and extrovert and then assigns you to one camp or the other. People then, especially those assigned introvert, limit themselves. Introversion is not a diagnosis. You can be extroverted during meetings and introverted at your desk. If you 'lean introvert', it means you could work on exercising your extrovert muscle. It goes the same for the other way. Learning how to be introverted at the right time is a benefit to all extroverts. The danger with MBTI is in making you think these are medical diagnoses and you're trapped being one thing or the other. I've worked with people who think they are extroverts and read books like "How To Work With Introverts." These people are dangerous. So are employers that want to know your type. They will limit your career growth depending on their prejudices. This is no different than you career suffering because you aren't a Pisces.
- HPsquared 4y ago
  As far as personality tests go it's less dangerous/"offensive" than a lot of others. E.g what if an employee was classified as low agreeableness, high neuroticism, low conscientiousness, etc etc? Liability issues abound if that was used for hiring/promotion purposes. That's not even getting into IQ...
- tohuteohoetuhoe 4y ago
  Although it is true that personalities are not dichotomies, the best (reproducible and meaningful) personality inventory to date is the big 5. Extraversion is one of the inventories. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits Research has suggested that the brains of people identified with higher or lesser degrees of extraversion do function differently. You are correct that behavior does not derive deterministically from personality. Anecdotally, I agree that MTBI has been used as an excuse to refrain from developing beneficial social skills and behaviors.
  - runarberg 4y ago
    > Research has suggested that the brains of people identified with higher or lesser degrees of extraversion do function differently. This is an extremely weak statement. You can find any difference in the brain if you look hard enough. The brain is an extremely dynamic system and our measurements are full of noise. And even you are able to fully account for the noise in measurements you can easily be measuring something different than you think you are. > You are correct that behavior does not derive deterministically from personality. This should be a failing grade of personality psychology. What is the point of measuring personality if you cant find any behavior associated with it? At this point personality psychology is nothing more than metaphysics and has no place in modern science.
anonyfox 4y ago
Currently our HR Director has plans to start using this shit in our company under the cover of "teambuilding events" - anyone has some experiences on how to change her mind? I really don't want to put people into boxes, even worse with arbitrary/wrong labels, and I can't stand pseudoscience any longer (it starts slowly with this crap and ends up with chemtrails or worse)
- Aeolun 4y ago
  I thought it was incredibly enlightening to do this with my team. “What? I was sure you were an extrovert based on how you act!” “Unfortunately I detest talking to you all, it’s just the only way to get anything done.”
dugmartin 4y ago
When I see any "test" that puts people in generic buckets I think of the quote from Robert Benchley (I didn't know the source, just the quote and he seems to be the originator in 1920): "There may be said to be two classes of people in the world; those who constantly divide the people of the world into two classes, and those who do not."
- czbond 4y ago
  But people aren't unique. Their dominant behaviors and dominant social shaping are a distribution. Call it 5 buckets, call it 16 buckets or whatever - but people really aren't that unique on the whole.
slothtrop 4y ago
I think people project more onto it than is generally purported. The only thing MBTI does is reflect preferences, at least preferences people think they have. Anything else explored by the "assessments" like Ti/Fe is bullshit. The test is more redundant than it is meaningless, except to those for whom concepts like being detail-oriented or regimented or introverted are novel.
000ooo000 4y ago
Can't remember where I read it, but I enjoyed this remark on MBTI: "be skeptical of any personnel categorisation system where everyone is a winner". MBTI is just another exercise in extracting money from the gullible.
Aeolun 4y ago
The writer of this article seems to have a pretty big beef with Myers-Briggs. It’s fine. As long as you realize that it’s not binary, and indicates a tendency, not an absolute.
BigCryo 4y ago
This article sounds like just another way to own the cons.. it isn't that what American politics comes down to nowadays.. owning the cons and owning the libs. That's all politics is these days and it has spread out into every possible area of American life including science. Got to own the cons... got to own the libs... Isn't America great?
neotrope 4y ago
MBTI is useful. It's a shortcut to seeing your own blind spots and typing people will likely improve the quality of your interactions (it has for me). I married the exact opposite of my personality and raise two kids that mirror us. I also type people when I first meet them. Some learnings: 1. Seeing MBTI as limiting is itself a limitation. People bring value in different ways and knowing where to look for it can be life changing. 2. Personality is genetic but can vary wildly. MBTI is best seen as a genotype (markers for traits, rather than the expression of traits). Some of its categories aren't very helpful while others can help guide a career. 3. MBTI is more of an ongoing study rather than a test you take. Once developed, it provides a helpful guide to communicating, understanding expectations and compatibility with others. It’s also a helpful mirror to see your own blind spots. 4. Mature individuals can be difficult to type as they present as they choose rather than their defaults.
jakubmazanec 4y ago
Haven't someone already tried to give MBTI to GPT? Ideally repeatedly to do some reliability statistics? :D
satisfice 4y ago
It’s neither meaningless nor dangerous. I’ve been part of a community that has found this helpful for decades. But a key factor with us is that we use it as a preference indicator, not a reality indicator. It has heuristic value as a way of talking about universal human experiences. I want to be thought of as an ENFP, so that’s what I call myself, even though the test thinks I am INFP. The test is not important. But the letters are shorthand for a set of policies by which my behavior can be made sense of. Maybe there is a better way. But, no, it’s not meaningless.
- runarberg 4y ago
  It is meaningless as a science, and meaningless as a utility. It’s only remaining function is entertainment. Or as OP puts it: > The Myers-Briggs is useful for one thing: entertainment. There's absolutely nothing wrong with taking the test as a fun, interesting activity, like a BuzzFeed quiz. However the industry brands it self as a utility based on science, when it is in fact neither. And I take issue with that. At best this is really really expensive entertainment exploited by big business, selling a product based on a lie.
taylodl 4y ago
Myers-Briggs is astrology. If you find that sort of thing fun, then great. Run away from any company demanding you take such a test as part of their interviewing process. It's as useful to the company as informing them of your astrological sign. Outside of entertainment it serves no purpose and using it outside of entertainment is detrimental to all involved. Any company using Myers-Briggs to evaluate their employees or future employees is likely to be using other snake oil methodologies as well and is best to be avoided.

49 points by fagnerbrack 4y ago

Had a job that wanted me to do a PROCTORED Myers Briggs test as part of the interview process. In addition to a IQ test. Thanked them for their time and moved on... My recruiter didn't understand why I was running for the door.

DJBunnies 4y ago

Meaningless is pretty subjective here, plenty of us derive joy from such things.

giraffe_lady 4y ago

I'm not a fan of it and I definitely hate its popularity in companies, where it truly has no valid use imo. But people do seem to find it useful as a tool for personal introspection, making it similar to tarot, astrology, i ching, etc. Meaningless maybe but not worthless per se.

runarberg 4y ago
I think the difference is that tarots and astrology are mainly used recreationaly while personal psychology is used more by professionals claiming benefits then by the general public just having fun. Horoscope authors are more like folk preachers or entertainers than scientists, personality psychologists are still mascaraing as scientists. While plenty of people are being scammed using astrology, way more people are just spending little to no money just having fun. Personality psychology is overwhelmingly businessmen selling snake oil.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  Yes good point.

hackitup7 4y ago

I'm not making the claim that MBTI is useful, but anecdotally people who are familiar with it seem to be able to guess close acquaintances' types with above chance accuracy. Leads me to suspect that it's getting at something, although perhaps in a coarse or low utility way. I've never seen someone guess horoscope signs above chance.

giraffe_lady 4y ago
From my understanding of it and having to take it a couple times at different jobs, it seems like a reasonably coherent categorization system for certain aspects of personality. Where it falls apart is making predictions about how individuals will react to a certain situation or how people will interact with each other. In that I've never seen it do better than just what a socially competent person would accomplish by going with their judgement and intuition, and often worse.
- klodolph 4y ago
  I think it’s not actually testing personality, but some kind of way that people choose to present themselves. The difference is that personality is supposed to be more stable over time and across different circumstances.
- codersfocus 4y ago
  http://www.socionics.com/rel/rel.htm http://www.socionics.com/rel/rel.htm This is a link that describes how people will relate with each other, and I’ve found it to be accurate. Note the type encoding system is slightly different from MBTI, for introverts the last letter has to be flipped. I want to point out that MBTI is basically a brochure version of an underlying theory. The value comes from understanding the individual cognitive functions themselves. Once you understand that, you can know the _process_ someone uses to think and make decisions. That gives you a better idea of why they think the way they do, especially if their cfs are different / confusing to you. It’s like being able to boot up someone else’s mental… OS in a VM (taxing and slow, but if you really want to run something, necessary.)
watwut 4y ago

pclmulqdq 4y ago

I have done the real Myers-Briggs process a few times. It takes a day for a small team, and includes several interviews, the test, and meetings. The test on its own is pretty pseudoscientific (and gameable), but if you know someone well you can usually guess their MBTI type without a test. However, the whole process is not a bad medium for introspecting on whether your process works for the individuals on the team, using the "scientific personality profiles" you just developed to talk about your style. For example, one team I was on adopted a meeting agenda before our weekly meetings (the Amazon "6-pager" idea), ostensibly because of the prevalence of IxxJ personality types on the team, and it helped several people become more open. As I understand it, there are now better personality inventories and processes for this, but Myers-Briggs was the OG.

jackmott42 4y ago
The idea that you know something is nonsense, but you make some excuse in your mind for how it is useful nonetheless is such a common, human thing. You see the same "logic" with lie detector tests. "Oh we know it is useless but its still useful because of nonsense games we play with it" Just stop, accept that it is bogus and don't do it.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  I'm not saying it's useless at all. I'm saying that the online bullshit that everyone thinks when you talk about "the MBTI" is useless. The actual MBTI is useful when used in its intended context, and no more. When people take the test out of context, it becomes no more than a horoscope. For most personality inventories, that context is in terms of determining what makes people comfortable in interpersonal relations. It doesn't predict the kinds of jobs you like (even though people online say it does). It doesn't predict your income earnings potential. It doesn't predict how you will act in any given circumstance. It doesn't predict how you will feel in any given circumstance. Its only value is in helping to determine what kinds of interactions you are most comfortable with. This is the same as other psychology tests, like those online autism, ADD, or psychopathy tests that people are also obsessed with. The paper test literally means nothing on its own. It is used to follow up on a clinical observation. Also, by the way, the Myers-Briggs test itself has had a hard time standing up to scrutiny because the test is very transparent about what it's testing for, so any test-taker can manipulate their answers to get the result they want very easily. Modern personality tests are usually some variant of the "big five" (which is kind of like Myers-Briggs plus one). The tests have gotten better at not convincing you to manipulate the result. A lot of people who are engineers are uncomfortable with this kind of arrangement, but it's how a lot of psychology (and medicine, for that matter) works due to the uncertainty in the testing vehicles, which is substantial.

paiute 4y ago

I find the N types enjoy and find value in MBTI. S types seem to hate it because it's not scientific enough. As an N type I find the big five worthless for helping me understand interactions with others. MBTI wasn't made to be a correlate in your study; I guess it's meaningless.

czbond 4y ago
> S types seem to hate it because it's not scientific enough. N types can make the leap. S types (of the many I've known) believe they're intuitive until actually experiencing they may not be, or are too data focused to allow an intuitive leap to be made. And that bothers S more than N. Every ESTJ / ISTJ wants to be an INTJ.

DrThunder 4y ago

I absolutely despise these "personality" tests. I've done the DISC assessment bs at multiple jobs. I'm to the point where I think I'm going to purposely answer "wrong" in the future to get some odd letter and throw the hardcore DISC fans off. We have a few people that continuously walk around talking about whether they're D, or "oh that's such an S thing to do". Yes... all people's personalities fit into some stupid 4 personality acronym.

Clubber 4y ago
>We have a few people that continuously walk around talking about whether they're D, or "oh that's such an S thing to do". Yes... all people's personalities fit into some stupid 4 personality acronym. It seems like it's only a stone's throw away from astrology.
- blitzar 4y ago
  > It seems like it's only a stone's throw away from astrology. That is such a Taurus thing to say.

pxeger1 4y ago

Every time I do this test I get about 50% on three of the four categories, and the random noise in my precise answers means I get a different "personality type" every time.

Overtonwindow 4y ago

Personality tests are just another way to discriminate. They have absolutely no basis in fact in predicting how a person is going to behave or perform in a given situation. Corporations, and society in general, put far too much faith in trying to read the tea leaves of human cognition and behavior through shortcuts.

headstorm 4y ago

25 years ago, a friend quickly learned how to answer an online MBTI so that he could consistently score neutral on all four axes. I think that was the most entertaining approach that I've seen.

czbond 4y ago

I've never understood people outside of a work context. They're just balls of emotion that to me appear to do illogical things for random reasons. In an effort to understand, about 10 years back I dove heavily into the traits of the individual "letters" and the types from MBTI. Even if it isn't perfect, it is a framework for me to arrive at a consistent typing systems for anyone. I can now accurately predict people, what they'll do in most circumstances, and then their likes/dislikes. 16 buckets gives you a small group of permutations to start with - and then to whittle a person into for refinement. The fallacy is to approach the test as an absolute, rather than for proclivities. Each person of a "type" will still have unique differences. Humans really aren't that unique, bell curve and all.... x of 100 groupings helped me understand that.

polyterative 4y ago
> Even if it isn't perfect, it is a framework for me to arrive at a consistent typing systems for anyone. I had the same exact experience.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
> Even if it isn't perfect, it is a framework for me to arrive at a consistent typing systems for anyone It's almost like all models are wrong, but some are useful.
blitzar 4y ago
If you use starsigns and the current alignment of the planets you will get similar results.
- meh8881 4y ago
  Star signs are the belief that you have a label which causes you have traits. A personality framework assigns you a label based on the traits you have. They’re basically the opposite of each other.
  - shahbazac 4y ago
    What a great way to say it!

haunter 4y ago

MBTI is pretty much like astrology/horoscope Also it's funny how if you see someone on Twitter or on dating site putting it up on their profile it's like 90% of a time is an INTP/J

meh8881 4y ago
I think there is some irony in claiming a certain behavior seems to be distinct to one personality archetype as evidence that the personality framework is meaningless.

drakonka 4y ago

This reminds me of the "CliftonStrengths" assessment, which I've been trying to get more information on. It's doing the rounds in the indie publishing community right now and people get so excited about how they're "high strategic" or "low intuitive" or whatever, you just hear it everywhere. There's authors buying books, courses, coaching, etc. I _thought_ all of this stuff was disproved a long time ago, but I still haven't figured out if this "Clifton" one is somehow different or if it's just authors falling for people charging a bunch of money to train them on their "strengths" as if they mean anything. I suppose even if they _don't_ mean anything, if they help the person introspect and figure out what works for them it's worth it in some way. It just really grinds my gears to see these "consultants" or "coaches" talk about this stuff as if it is totally evidence-based and backed by science. Unless maybe Clifton is different somehow?

borbulon 4y ago

"Oh Agent Starling, you think you can dissect me with this blunt little tool?" Look, I think they're useful as a general idea, though I'd never use them to tell me anything concrete, even with the caveat that all people in the situation are acting honestly. I'm just most interested in the companies who require the tests as part of their onboarding. If me taking the test is a prerequisite for me working there, what does that say about your organization?

czbond 4y ago
Why wouldn't a company want to have a better understanding of who they are hiring? A manager can use them to shape the role, shape the goals, and approach people differently. Example: If you are a xxTJ "thinker judger" I know that you'll be upfront, may use coarse wording, cut to the chase, and may bulldoze people (I am xNTJ). An "xxFP" "Feeler Perceiver" will internalize words and apply emotional meaning, empathize with people easily & understand people, but be put off by "in your face" types.

francisofascii 4y ago

I think understanding personality types is pretty useful, actually. The trouble arises when people don't acknowledge the traits are on a continuum and could change over time. So the letter classification can be misleading. For these to be predictive, I thing they are useful but must be joined with other variables. Air temperature is not meaningless when predicting the weather, but it is not sufficient either.

dynm 4y ago

The four axes of the myers-briggs test are strongly correlated with four axes of the big five test. This presents a serious challenge for anyone who (like this article) claims the myers-briggs test is meaningless while the big five is not meaningless. (I wrote a post making this argument at greater length: https://dynomight.net/in-defense-of-myers-briggs.html https://dynomight.net/in-defense-of-myers-briggs.html )

czbond 4y ago
Thanks for linking your post.

paulsutter 4y ago

I’m fascinated by people who work so hard to fight Myers-Briggs. It’s like the observation that atheists take religion too seriously. How is Myers Briggs important enough to attack?

analog31 4y ago
Believing that someone can judge your thoughts invokes a strong feeling of revulsion in some people. It's also generally bad news for society.

a13o 4y ago

More than meaningless I think MBTI is dangerous. It creates a false dichotomy between introvert and extrovert and then assigns you to one camp or the other. People then, especially those assigned introvert, limit themselves. Introversion is not a diagnosis. You can be extroverted during meetings and introverted at your desk. If you 'lean introvert', it means you could work on exercising your extrovert muscle. It goes the same for the other way. Learning how to be introverted at the right time is a benefit to all extroverts. The danger with MBTI is in making you think these are medical diagnoses and you're trapped being one thing or the other. I've worked with people who think they are extroverts and read books like "How To Work With Introverts." These people are dangerous. So are employers that want to know your type. They will limit your career growth depending on their prejudices. This is no different than you career suffering because you aren't a Pisces.

HPsquared 4y ago
As far as personality tests go it's less dangerous/"offensive" than a lot of others. E.g what if an employee was classified as low agreeableness, high neuroticism, low conscientiousness, etc etc? Liability issues abound if that was used for hiring/promotion purposes. That's not even getting into IQ...
tohuteohoetuhoe 4y ago
Although it is true that personalities are not dichotomies, the best (reproducible and meaningful) personality inventory to date is the big 5. Extraversion is one of the inventories. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits Research has suggested that the brains of people identified with higher or lesser degrees of extraversion do function differently. You are correct that behavior does not derive deterministically from personality. Anecdotally, I agree that MTBI has been used as an excuse to refrain from developing beneficial social skills and behaviors.
- runarberg 4y ago
  > Research has suggested that the brains of people identified with higher or lesser degrees of extraversion do function differently. This is an extremely weak statement. You can find any difference in the brain if you look hard enough. The brain is an extremely dynamic system and our measurements are full of noise. And even you are able to fully account for the noise in measurements you can easily be measuring something different than you think you are. > You are correct that behavior does not derive deterministically from personality. This should be a failing grade of personality psychology. What is the point of measuring personality if you cant find any behavior associated with it? At this point personality psychology is nothing more than metaphysics and has no place in modern science.

anonyfox 4y ago

Currently our HR Director has plans to start using this shit in our company under the cover of "teambuilding events" - anyone has some experiences on how to change her mind? I really don't want to put people into boxes, even worse with arbitrary/wrong labels, and I can't stand pseudoscience any longer (it starts slowly with this crap and ends up with chemtrails or worse)

Aeolun 4y ago
I thought it was incredibly enlightening to do this with my team. “What? I was sure you were an extrovert based on how you act!” “Unfortunately I detest talking to you all, it’s just the only way to get anything done.”

dugmartin 4y ago

When I see any "test" that puts people in generic buckets I think of the quote from Robert Benchley (I didn't know the source, just the quote and he seems to be the originator in 1920): "There may be said to be two classes of people in the world; those who constantly divide the people of the world into two classes, and those who do not."

czbond 4y ago
But people aren't unique. Their dominant behaviors and dominant social shaping are a distribution. Call it 5 buckets, call it 16 buckets or whatever - but people really aren't that unique on the whole.

slothtrop 4y ago

I think people project more onto it than is generally purported. The only thing MBTI does is reflect preferences, at least preferences people think they have. Anything else explored by the "assessments" like Ti/Fe is bullshit. The test is more redundant than it is meaningless, except to those for whom concepts like being detail-oriented or regimented or introverted are novel.

000ooo000 4y ago

Can't remember where I read it, but I enjoyed this remark on MBTI: "be skeptical of any personnel categorisation system where everyone is a winner". MBTI is just another exercise in extracting money from the gullible.

Aeolun 4y ago

The writer of this article seems to have a pretty big beef with Myers-Briggs. It’s fine. As long as you realize that it’s not binary, and indicates a tendency, not an absolute.

BigCryo 4y ago

This article sounds like just another way to own the cons.. it isn't that what American politics comes down to nowadays.. owning the cons and owning the libs. That's all politics is these days and it has spread out into every possible area of American life including science. Got to own the cons... got to own the libs... Isn't America great?

neotrope 4y ago

MBTI is useful. It's a shortcut to seeing your own blind spots and typing people will likely improve the quality of your interactions (it has for me). I married the exact opposite of my personality and raise two kids that mirror us. I also type people when I first meet them. Some learnings: 1. Seeing MBTI as limiting is itself a limitation. People bring value in different ways and knowing where to look for it can be life changing. 2. Personality is genetic but can vary wildly. MBTI is best seen as a genotype (markers for traits, rather than the expression of traits). Some of its categories aren't very helpful while others can help guide a career. 3. MBTI is more of an ongoing study rather than a test you take. Once developed, it provides a helpful guide to communicating, understanding expectations and compatibility with others. It’s also a helpful mirror to see your own blind spots. 4. Mature individuals can be difficult to type as they present as they choose rather than their defaults.

jakubmazanec 4y ago

Haven't someone already tried to give MBTI to GPT? Ideally repeatedly to do some reliability statistics? :D

satisfice 4y ago

It’s neither meaningless nor dangerous. I’ve been part of a community that has found this helpful for decades. But a key factor with us is that we use it as a preference indicator, not a reality indicator. It has heuristic value as a way of talking about universal human experiences. I want to be thought of as an ENFP, so that’s what I call myself, even though the test thinks I am INFP. The test is not important. But the letters are shorthand for a set of policies by which my behavior can be made sense of. Maybe there is a better way. But, no, it’s not meaningless.

runarberg 4y ago
It is meaningless as a science, and meaningless as a utility. It’s only remaining function is entertainment. Or as OP puts it: > The Myers-Briggs is useful for one thing: entertainment. There's absolutely nothing wrong with taking the test as a fun, interesting activity, like a BuzzFeed quiz. However the industry brands it self as a utility based on science, when it is in fact neither. And I take issue with that. At best this is really really expensive entertainment exploited by big business, selling a product based on a lie.

taylodl 4y ago

Myers-Briggs is astrology. If you find that sort of thing fun, then great. Run away from any company demanding you take such a test as part of their interviewing process. It's as useful to the company as informing them of your astrological sign. Outside of entertainment it serves no purpose and using it outside of entertainment is detrimental to all involved. Any company using Myers-Briggs to evaluate their employees or future employees is likely to be using other snake oil methodologies as well and is best to be avoided.