13 ms·

I tried going all-in on using iCloud Keychain (correct term?) for my passwords from having previously used LastPass. In short. 1. The experience on Windows is

I tried going all-in on using iCloud Keychain (correct term?) for my passwords from having previously used LastPass. In short. 1. The experience on Windows is terrible. They can claim it's cross-platform but it's truly a sub-par product. 2. On Mac it's tied specifically to Safari. I use Safari a lot but if I'm in a different browser then my passwords are unavailable. 3. The GUI is buried in System Settings. Heaven forbid you need search it's only a simple 37 clicks away! I think those were my big complaints. If you are 100% Mac then it's a good product. Going outside of the walled Apple garden leaves a lot to be desired.

grammers 4y ago
Sounds like vendor lockin is the aim here, not being fully cross-platform without any hassle.
chakintosh 4y ago
> 1. The experience on Windows is terrible. They can claim it's cross-platform but it's truly a sub-par product. Ditto. Why do I have to replace my Windows login password with a "PIN" code that's the same as the iCloud Keychain PIN !? That's super weird!
AdmiralAsshat 4y ago
> If you are 100% Mac then it's a good product. Going outside of the walled Apple garden leaves a lot to be desired. I think Apple would consider this "working as designed."
- lozenge 4y ago
  With passkeys, now every platform can enjoy this level of lock in!
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    I hope not. I'm patiently waiting on 1Password to release their implementation of passkeys so I can have it work on all my devices, Apple or not.
    - stavros 4y ago
      Yep, same with BitWarden. That would be fantastic.
    - stouset 4y ago
      Just use Passkeys. Any account that allows 2FA allows multiple second factors. You should be setting up backup second factors anyway if you don't want to risk getting permanently locked out of all of your accounts. Plus, putting second factors in the same location as your first factor (e.g., 1Password) seems to pretty much defeat the entire purpose of having a second factor. If you're using strong passwords with 1Password, your second factor is basically only defending against a leak of your password database. If you're storing your second factor in that same password database, what are you gaining?
      - withinboredom 4y ago
        passkeys isn't supported on linux desktop, at all. and if you know how to make it work, please let me know. I have to switch to a Windows machine to login with them.
      - cstrahan 4y ago
        Well, with the exception of AWS, unless something has changed recently — they notoriously only support one second factor (i.e. if you use YubiKeys or similar, you can only use one).
        stouset 4y ago
        Yeah, AWS is the only exception I've encountered :) But if you have backup second factors (you have backup second factors, right?) and you're worried about Passkey lock-in for whatever reason… just use that other second factor for AWS or any other account which supports only one.
        JimDabell 4y ago
        You can add multiple MFA devices since November of last year: > Now, you can add multiple MFA devices to AWS account root users and AWS Identity and Access Management (IAM) users in your AWS accounts. This helps you to raise the security bar in your accounts and limit access management to highly privileged principals, such as root users. Previously, you could only have one MFA device associated with root users or IAM users, but now you can associate up to eight MFA devices of the currently supported types with root users and IAM users. — https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/security/you-can-now-assign-multiple-mfa-devices-in-iam/ https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/security/you-can-now-assign-mul...
  - warning26 4y ago
    Yeah, that's why I'd never touch passkeys. It feels like you're basically locking yourself into a weird ecosystem that you'll never be able to escape from.
    - stouset 4y ago
      This is kind of silly. If you're using hardware 2FA, you should absolutely have backups. I've used YubiKeys for years and have one in my laptop, one on a keychain, and one in a safety deposit box. Passkeys are just another instance of this. I have added Passkeys to all of my accounts with 2FA and it's somewhat more convenient (significantly more convenient for mobile devices). But every account also has all my YubiKeys attached as second factors. There is no lock-in. And while it's inconvenient and annoying to have to add multiple keys to every account, that is already the reality if you're responsibly using hardware second factors.
      - devman0 4y ago
        This would be less annoying if we could get actual federated identity that big players would actually accept, as it stands having to fetch a key from a safe deposit box every time I register a new account is a huge amount of friction.
        stouset 4y ago
        It absolutely is. But that’s a separate problem entirely from “will Passkeys lock me in to the Apple ecosystem”, to which the answer is an unqualified no.
        jve 4y ago
        Microsoft is a big player and here you go: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/identity/ad-fs/ad-fs-overview https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/identity/ad... I currently have a Microsoft (Work) account that I'm SSO logged on.
        devman0 4y ago
- asciii 4y ago
  > I think Apple would consider this "working as designed." Incoming iTunes Password Manager, next event :P
- WWLink 4y ago
  > I think Apple would consider this "working as designed." Punishing us geeks who like using multiple different kinds of OS on their phones and computers. :(
- OsintOtter69 4y ago
  [flagged]
Schiendelman 4y ago
On 3, at least: Apple assumes you'll use search on device. If so, it's: 1) Swipe down 2) Type "p" 3) tap autocomplete result in "settings" group.
- airstrike 4y ago
  But if you search on Mac using spotlight you need to type "keychain" smfh my head
sagarkamat 4y ago
Agree on most of this but Keychain Access IS a standalone app on the mac so slightly confused about the comment about it being buried in System settings. Its still a pain to go to the app and copy a password for non-Safari browsers though.
- arrrg 4y ago
  That app is not at all a password manager. It‘s a view and editor for all kinds of stored keys. I don’t think its target audience ever were intended to be some random macOS users. That’s just not the target group. It‘s about power users that need to access or store all kinds of keys.
- leesalminen 4y ago
  I just do cmd+space -> type "pass" -> Return -> fingerprint. That gets me to my iCloud Keychain. I used to use Keychain Access but like the UI of the Passwords tab of Settings more.
  - maccard 4y ago
    I use 1password. cmd + shift + space opens a spotlight-like dialog for 1password. First access requires a fingerprint. It also works on Windows!
X-Istence 4y ago
> I use Safari a lot but if I'm in a different browser then my passwords are unavailable. Chrome used to be tied into Keychain but they went their own way a long time ago, which is a damn shame.
- smaccona 4y ago
  I guess they want compatibility/password sharing between Chrome on Mac, Windows and Linux, which I can understand.
- vanilla_nut 4y ago
  I believe Apple only lets you use certain APIs (like Keychain) if you distribute only through the App Store. That policy has really killed a lot of functionality on macOS. I suspect it will cause fiction on iOS when the EU forces them to allow alternative install sources. Personally, it grates me when Apple cripples functionality this way to try to keep us stuck in their platform. Can't use Firefox with Keychain. You can only view your current Apple Card balance on an iOS device -- not even a macOS device. At the end of the day, I hate being manipulated so much that it actually pushes me away from the platform to see this scummy behavior.
  - smileybarry 4y ago
    > You can only view your current Apple Card balance on an iOS device -- not even a macOS device. That sounds especially annoying. An iPad next to you can auto-config itself as the umpteenth monitor of a Mac, but macOS can't pull Apple Card balance from your nearby iPhone?
    - X-Istence 4y ago
      You can use a standard web browser and login: https://card.apple.com https://card.apple.com
  - someNameIG 4y ago
    Is there a reason Chrome, Edge, and Firefox aren't on the Mac app store? I know the yearly dev account costs can be an issue for small developers but Google, Microsoft, and Mozilla are already paying that as they release apps on the iOS App Store.
whstl 4y ago
There seems to be a Google Chrome extension called "iCloud Passwords" but it only has two stars, so I don't think you'll be positively surprised. Also, on iPhone it's ok-ish but on Mac the experience is a subpar too: Keychain, the app you use to view your passwords, feels like a 90s Visual Basic application. Plus you can't organize your accounts, and even if you prefix them to "sort by name", the special name you give is lost after using it. On the other hand, I already have other Apple cloud stuff and kinda trust them, so I suffer through it. And other password managers aren't anything to write home about either to make me change :/
- notyourwork 4y ago
  +1 to subpar on Mac. iPhone is about the only surface where its seamless/smooth. The rest leaves me constantly frustrated.
- comex 4y ago
  Note that macOS now has three “apps” to view your passwords, three different UIs for the same database. There’s Keychain Access, there’s the Passwords section of System Settings, and there’s the Passwords section of Safari preferences (which is the same UI as the pre-Ventura System Preferences app’s Passwords section). The other two have even less organization functionality than Keychain Access, so this probably doesn’t help you, but the blog post was talking about the System Settings version so I wanted to point it out.
- kccqzy 4y ago
  What's wrong with Keychain Access? It hasn't changed its appearance since more than a decade. That's a good thing for familiarity. Early Mac OS X apps have incredibly good design that doesn't waste space.
  - 9dev 4y ago
    Guess which app is ripe for a Swift UI redesign soon!
  - whstl 4y ago
    But it does waste a lot of space... there's a lot of duplication of keys (which are deduplicated in the iPhone app), and with other information (somehow I have hundreds of "com.apple.cloudd.deviceIdentifier.Production" in there). And I already mentioned organization fails. Plus it's kinda insecure as it enumerates your accounts exhaustively without asking for a password like iPhone/Safari (granted, not a problem specific to this app). And the interface to view the passwords is terrible. Old and familiar is not synonyms with "good". However now that comex pointed me to the Password in the "System Settings" app, I at least can use it and it's fine if Keychain is left as is.
taylorlapeyre 4y ago
Apple makes a iCloud Passwords chrome extension: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/icloud-passwords/pejdijmoenmkgeppbflobdenhhabjlaj https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/icloud-passwords/p...
- hnrodey 4y ago
  Maybe this was it...IIRC the user must also have iCloud For Windows installed? It's been several months since I tried this setup. For my personal user experience it was unacceptable.
- joenathanone 4y ago
  The reviews are brutal.
  - Avery555 4y ago
    [dead]
- larrik 4y ago
  Windows only! It doesn't work on Mac! I honestly didn't know that was possible before that extension.
  - animal_spirits 4y ago
    Chrome on mac should by default be able to work with the Apple password keychain
    - Camillo 4y ago
      Meaning it ought to, but doesn't, right?
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      No, Google has not implemented support for Keychain in Chrome. AFAIK neither has Firefox.
waboremo 4y ago
Funny situation, there's another thread I was replying to someone who wanted to shift back to native apps instead of cross plat electron apps (for performance reasons). Well, Apple Passwords on Windows is a good example of how that turns out in reality. I believe it's using WinUI. While the performance is nice, the experience is entirely unlike what you get on Mac and winds up making you wish you were using another service entirely.
- porcoda 4y ago
  This has been the story of Apple apps outside MacOS forever: they appear to always do the absolute minimum to claim support, and you end up with a super clunky windows app that is terrible. I doubt they’d do much better using electron: I think their development model is that if it isn’t on one of their platforms, they pump out a minimum-effort, low quality app. I’d guess that electron ones would be just as clunky, except with a significantly higher memory and CPU footprint.
  - waboremo 4y ago
    That hasn't really been true. Apple supported iTunes and Safari which were great options on Windows. Not just "I'm already an Apple fan so I have to use it", but actively deciding to use them. The root of the problem for Apple is that they cannot get away with doing what they used to in the past, they already have a plethora of platforms within their own umbrella to support, adding Windows native to the mix seems to result in maybe a handful of developers taking on enormous burdens by trying to catch up to their expected Mac apps. If Apple were to seriously put its weight behind a cross-platform toolkit, this might change, especially as they want their services to grow. It's the very reason why their main service competitors can even compete. But I agree that if they were to suddenly switch to Electron without a care it wouldn't turn out well, but likely have a better end user experience than their current reveals.
    - paulryanrogers 4y ago
      So SwiftUI for Windows?
reaperducer 4y ago
I use Safari a lot but if I'm in a different browser then my passwords are unavailable. No, it's not. I alternate between Safari, Firefox, and Duck. If a password I use in Safari isn't stored in Firefox, I copy it from the Keychain program and paste it into Firefox. Firefox then asks to save it. No problem. The GUI is buried in System Settings. It has its own program. /Applications/Utilities/Keychain Access
- howinteresting 4y ago
  Your workflow is significantly worse than the experience I get with 1password.
- NavinF 4y ago
  > I copy it from the Keychain program and paste it into Firefox Woah that's the same way I used password managers 10 years ago. Even back then it was considered barbaric. I had no idea people still lived like that.
  - reaperducer 4y ago
    I never stated that it was good. The previous commenter said passwords were "unavailable" outside of Safari. I merely demonstrated that his statement was false.
zitterbewegung 4y ago
You can make a shortcut that opens passwords.
Euphorbium 4y ago
2. Dont know what you are talking about, I use brave and get my passwords filled in from keychain. 3. Cmd-space keychain opens up keychain
- hnrodey 4y ago
  Thank you for sharing that. I was not aware. I will try this tonight!
howinteresting 4y ago
It's not just a good product if you're 100% Apple, it's only a good product if you're 100% Apple and are willing to accept a great deal of friction if Apple's direction no longer suits you in the future. It's a version of what some people call "high time preference". Personally, I was taught to care about the future.
- dwaite 4y ago
  They have an export-to-CSV feature. That takes a lot of the worry out of hypothetical futures.
  - howinteresting 4y ago
    Still adds a great deal of friction and makes it harder to, say, experiment with an Android phone or a Linux desktop for a month. Compare that to 1password which just works.
tiffanyh 4y ago
Apple has to tread lightly on not have too robust of capabilities, especially for non-Apple ecosystem, since it might be consider anti-competitive. (e.g. Netscape vs Microsoft Internet Explorer) EDIT: why the downvotes without a reply? If you don't agree, why not just respond why so that a health dialogue can occur.
- sbuk 4y ago
  As stated by another poster, Netscape vs MSFT was about coercing OEMs not to include competing browsers to be pre-installed on new systems. Apple could create and give away a cross platform password manager without much fear of ramifications, unless they exclude all other password managers.
kolanos 4y ago
> 3. The GUI is buried in System Settings. Heaven forbid you need search it's only a simple 37 clicks away! Safari > Preferences > Passwords Would love to have iCloud Keychain in other browsers, though.
spullara 4y ago
You just run the Keychain Access app on a Mac.
robotresearcher 4y ago
> 3. The GUI is buried in System Settings. Heaven forbid you need search it's only a simple 37 clicks away! On Mac, at any time, type: command-space passw <return> On iOS tap <search> on any home screen, type passw, tap suggested result
- arrrg 4y ago
  Is this you arguing that it‘s not buried? Having to access something via a search incantation (or, alternatively, a ton of clicks) is not at all easily accessible. It’s buried alright. Obviously you can find pretty much anything on macOS and iOS via search. That‘s how it‘s should be. But that doesn’t make things accessible or even just visible.
- toxik 4y ago
  No results for “passw”
  - throwaway290 4y ago
    I write "keychain" usually, it appears after "key" already.
    - shagie 4y ago
      I've pinned Keychain Access in my tool bar. Finder, System settings, Keychain - right at the top.
- voytec 4y ago
  Rebuilding Spotlight index...
- kenver 4y ago
  A shortcut helps https://www.icloud.com/shortcuts/71fea01c333341878e4355df52c0fcef https://www.icloud.com/shortcuts/71fea01c333341878e4355df52c...
- mitemte 4y ago
  Better yet, using the Shortcuts app for iOS, create a shortcut that opens a URL with `prefs:root=PASSWORDS` in Safari. For macOS, you can make the same shortcut open `/Library/Apple/System/Library/CoreServices/SafariSupport.bundle/Contents/PreferencePanes/Passwords.prefPane`. A single shortcut can be used to accomplish this, using the OS check and an `if` condition. Then add the shortcut to the home screen as an icon and it’ll also show up in Spotlight search.
michael1999 4y ago
A limited GUI is also available within Safari on desktop. It is a tab under Preferences. It makes working in Chrome bearable. Agree the UI is terrible in iOS.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nailer 4y ago
I was about to say the same thing: Apple has a password manager? I’d consider Apple Passwords to be less than half a password manager.
baby 4y ago
I use chrome to manage passwords on all my devices, it works well except for apps. When I'm trying to get a password for an app in iOS, I just switch to chrome to get the password. Same if my password was from registering from an app and I'm in Chrome. Rinse and repeat and now my passwords are in both password managers. As for TOTP, if I lose my phone I don't know what will happen.
- manigandham 4y ago
  Settings > Passwords > Password Options > AutoFill Passwords + Allow Filling From Chrome Most apps can use passwords from Chrome just fine, and you can also quickly open the native passwords window when encountering a password field using the key icon. For TOTP, use apps like Authy which can be installed and used from multiple devices.
  - gameshot911 4y ago
    Awesome - thanks for sharing!
- notlukesky 4y ago
  [dead]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
darzu 4y ago
My biggest complaint is that it doesn’t keep a history! One misclicked “remember password” at the wrong moment (safari plugin often guesses password fields wrong) and you’ve just locked yourself out of your bank account. Literally happened to me.
JustSomeNobody 4y ago
That's all by design. They want you 100% on Apple products to get the full experience.
- wkat4242 4y ago
  The full experience for their shareholders you mean :P
yamtaddle 4y ago
> 1. The experience on Windows is terrible. They can claim it's cross-platform but it's truly a sub-par product. Like a lot of other Apple stuff, I'm only able to use it because I don't use anything non-Apple for anything "serious" that involves a GUI. Windows is for gaming, Linux is my file storage and docker-service-running server that I only interact with over SSH and Web. Ditto Notes, all their Office-type programs, et c. I'd probably be on a lot more Google shit if I needed more cross-platform access to that stuff. > 2. On Mac it's tied specifically to Safari. I use Safari a lot but if I'm in a different browser then my passwords are unavailable. Yeah, this is super fucking weird. You'd think this would be connected in some fashion to "keychain", but nope. > 3. The GUI is buried in System Settings. Heaven forbid you need search it's only a simple 37 clicks away! IDGAF about clicks because I search my way to everything in Apple's settings—what does bother me is that they've made search worse in the last couple versions of iOS, and that if I type "pass" in search, "Passwords" isn't even visible on the list yet. I can get all the way to "password" and it's still the fourth entry. The fucking name of the screen is "passwords"! I shouldn't have to get farther than "pas" for it to be the first entry on the list, "pass" in the worst-case! Even fully typing "passwords" still leaves it as the second entry (of three) on my device. WTF.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- klodolph 4y ago
  > Yeah, this is super fucking weird. You'd think this would be connected in some fashion to "keychain", but nope. Other browsers used to be able to use it. I do think it’s a really thorny issue—“allow this application to access all saved passwords?” is a pretty damn scary permission to include. Up there with the “allow this application to control your computer” permission that is used for accessibility apps (which apps can abuse to read passwords, if I understand correctly). Apple’s tradition. Make the platform more secure, add an exception for first-party apps, and let the other browsers fuck off.
  - tim333 4y ago
    Something could pop up saying "Fill password for HSBC Bank?" or similar and you click one button.
jrochkind1 4y ago
OP is suggesting it's a terrible UI on iOS and Mac too, and one of their principle complaints is your #3. So OP disagree that it's even a good product if you are 100% Mac, but are suggesting the functionality is all there, it just needs an actually designed UI/UX. And/But your #2 sounds pretty terrible to me too! It does not sound like a good product at all.
maliker 4y ago
I ended up writing an AppleScript to open the Safari passwords dialog because I got sick of hunting for the proper dialog. If you save it as passwords.command and make it executable it'll open the window right up. But yeah, it's a kludge. #!/usr/bin/osascript tell application "Safari" activate end tell tell application "System Events" keystroke "," using {command down} set pass_button to (button "Passwords" of toolbar 1 of window 1 of application process "Safari") click pass_button end tell
hot_gril 4y ago
4. New passwords overwrite old ones. Easy to accidentally lose passwords in slightly odd situations like logging into an account whose password you just reset. But I like it overall. Even though I use multiple browsers, I don't mind treating Keychain as the master DB and occasionally copying passwords out of it. Part of this is because I use Safari exclusively for the extra important things like my bank.
wmeredith 4y ago
> If you are 100% Mac then it's a good product. Going outside of the walled Apple garden leaves a lot to be desired. This has been the Apple way since the 1980's
mcculley 4y ago
> 3. The GUI is buried in System Settings. Heaven forbid you need search it's only a simple 37 clicks away! I just learned that this GUI exists. I have been using /System/Applications/Utilities/Keychain Access.app for years to deal with passwords.
- Mandatum 4y ago
  Me too. Now to try and figure out if I can create a Macro to launch this.
- alexjm 4y ago
  Same. And now I'm trying to figure out if there's any advantage to using the UI in System Settings instead of the app I already know.
dwighttk 4y ago
It's not great, but the app you are looking for on macOS is Keychain Access
ajmurmann 4y ago
"If you are 100% Mac then it's a good product." I use 100% ma except for gaming. However, I use other browsers as well, so the coupling to Safari is a deal breaker.
fitzroy 4y ago
I use this Menubar short cut for Passwords, so it's only 2 clicks and fingerprint away. https://www.icloud.com/shortcuts/22133925f3e34579b22951d65932ae20 https://www.icloud.com/shortcuts/22133925f3e34579b22951d6593...
OsintOtter69 4y ago
Last pass had a major incident recently iirc.
- palata 4y ago
  I moved to Bitwarden right after it, and I can't believe how much better it is in terms of UX \o/. I whish I had made the move years earlier.
  - anurag_baddam 4y ago
    Have there been any known incidents with Bitwarden?
xivzgrev 4y ago
Also, if your phone is stolen / lost and someone can guess your 6 digit passcode, then all your passwords are exposed. That was biggest deal killer for me.
dclowd9901 4y ago
I’m all in for personal web browsing. Safari is a great browser basically 99% of the time and having free synced passwords (and really any critical data!) between my desktop, phone and tablet, I get tremendous value. For work, I use chrome and chrome password management because my company uses gmail.
ikura 4y ago
Don’t use System Settings to find passwords, open Keychain Access instead, it’s much more direct for searching.
ar9av 4y ago
The main limitation of Apple's passwords implementation for me is lack of sharing. For accounts that my wife and I both need access to, we can have them in a shared location in bitwarden, but there's no comparable feature with Apple's. I'll probably even start paying for bitwarden so that I can share with more than one other person when my kids are old enough to need access to them
- followben 4y ago
  Yeah, this is a bugbear. FWIW my wife and I "share" keychain items by airdropping them to one another as required. It works, but nowhere near as nice as having a common record we can both maintain.
  - lampshades 4y ago
    My wife and I do the same and it actually works better than sharing because my wife understands how to do it without me trying to teach her.
- Jnr 4y ago
  I'm using self hosted Vaultwarden (open source implementation of the backend) and the password sharing feature is very nice to have.
divan 4y ago
> > 3. The GUI is buried in System Settings. Heaven forbid you need search it's only a simple 37 clicks away! On iOS you can ask Siri "show my passwords". Doesn't seem to work on MacOS though.
thih9 4y ago
> The GUI is buried in System Settings. Heaven forbid you need search it's only a simple 37 clicks away! I do: Cmd+space > "keychain" > Enter. Still not ideal but it's the fastest method I know. What do you mean, i.e. how do you access the GUI from the system settings? I tried finding keychain there but couldn't figure out where it is.
- aequitas 4y ago
  It's available as "Passwords" in the system settings. I think they added it recently to align it with iOS and iPadOS, where there is no mention of it being Keychain at all.
  - thih9 4y ago
    That's way nicer than what I've been using (i.e. Keychain Access). I'll likely switch to Passwords. Thanks!
AdamN 4y ago
Serious question but what do you use Windows for? I don't know alot of people that use Windows anymore so just wondering is it a work requirement?
- andrewmutz 4y ago
  It's still widely used for gaming
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  Went the other route, sold my iPad and went with a Surface instead... the short of it: It's inelegant, there's bugs, the UI is half-assed and some aspects are straight hostile (default widgets etc.). But it's an actual generic computer. Most task you assume you could do with a computer, there will be a way to do it. It might take some efforts to get to a decent setup, but the walled garden was also a PITA, so all in all, I felt my time is better invested in making windows a nice place than the endless fighting of Apple on iOS. As a halo effect, I'm kinda thinking about moving to Windows on my main computer as well on the next refresh cycle...not fully decided, but that feels like a viable option.

grammers 4y ago

Sounds like vendor lockin is the aim here, not being fully cross-platform without any hassle.

chakintosh 4y ago

> 1. The experience on Windows is terrible. They can claim it's cross-platform but it's truly a sub-par product. Ditto. Why do I have to replace my Windows login password with a "PIN" code that's the same as the iCloud Keychain PIN !? That's super weird!

AdmiralAsshat 4y ago

> If you are 100% Mac then it's a good product. Going outside of the walled Apple garden leaves a lot to be desired. I think Apple would consider this "working as designed."

lozenge 4y ago
With passkeys, now every platform can enjoy this level of lock in!
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  I hope not. I'm patiently waiting on 1Password to release their implementation of passkeys so I can have it work on all my devices, Apple or not.
  - stavros 4y ago
    Yep, same with BitWarden. That would be fantastic.
  - stouset 4y ago
    Just use Passkeys. Any account that allows 2FA allows multiple second factors. You should be setting up backup second factors anyway if you don't want to risk getting permanently locked out of all of your accounts. Plus, putting second factors in the same location as your first factor (e.g., 1Password) seems to pretty much defeat the entire purpose of having a second factor. If you're using strong passwords with 1Password, your second factor is basically only defending against a leak of your password database. If you're storing your second factor in that same password database, what are you gaining?
    - withinboredom 4y ago
      passkeys isn't supported on linux desktop, at all. and if you know how to make it work, please let me know. I have to switch to a Windows machine to login with them.
    - cstrahan 4y ago
      Well, with the exception of AWS, unless something has changed recently — they notoriously only support one second factor (i.e. if you use YubiKeys or similar, you can only use one).
      - stouset 4y ago
        Yeah, AWS is the only exception I've encountered :) But if you have backup second factors (you have backup second factors, right?) and you're worried about Passkey lock-in for whatever reason… just use that other second factor for AWS or any other account which supports only one.
      - JimDabell 4y ago
        You can add multiple MFA devices since November of last year: > Now, you can add multiple MFA devices to AWS account root users and AWS Identity and Access Management (IAM) users in your AWS accounts. This helps you to raise the security bar in your accounts and limit access management to highly privileged principals, such as root users. Previously, you could only have one MFA device associated with root users or IAM users, but now you can associate up to eight MFA devices of the currently supported types with root users and IAM users. — https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/security/you-can-now-assign-multiple-mfa-devices-in-iam/ https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/security/you-can-now-assign-mul...
- warning26 4y ago
  Yeah, that's why I'd never touch passkeys. It feels like you're basically locking yourself into a weird ecosystem that you'll never be able to escape from.
  - stouset 4y ago
    This is kind of silly. If you're using hardware 2FA, you should absolutely have backups. I've used YubiKeys for years and have one in my laptop, one on a keychain, and one in a safety deposit box. Passkeys are just another instance of this. I have added Passkeys to all of my accounts with 2FA and it's somewhat more convenient (significantly more convenient for mobile devices). But every account also has all my YubiKeys attached as second factors. There is no lock-in. And while it's inconvenient and annoying to have to add multiple keys to every account, that is already the reality if you're responsibly using hardware second factors.
    - devman0 4y ago
      This would be less annoying if we could get actual federated identity that big players would actually accept, as it stands having to fetch a key from a safe deposit box every time I register a new account is a huge amount of friction.
      - stouset 4y ago
        It absolutely is. But that’s a separate problem entirely from “will Passkeys lock me in to the Apple ecosystem”, to which the answer is an unqualified no.
      - jve 4y ago
        Microsoft is a big player and here you go: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/identity/ad-fs/ad-fs-overview https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/identity/ad... I currently have a Microsoft (Work) account that I'm SSO logged on.
        devman0 4y ago
asciii 4y ago
> I think Apple would consider this "working as designed." Incoming iTunes Password Manager, next event :P
WWLink 4y ago
> I think Apple would consider this "working as designed." Punishing us geeks who like using multiple different kinds of OS on their phones and computers. :(
OsintOtter69 4y ago
[flagged]

Schiendelman 4y ago

On 3, at least: Apple assumes you'll use search on device. If so, it's: 1) Swipe down 2) Type "p" 3) tap autocomplete result in "settings" group.

airstrike 4y ago
But if you search on Mac using spotlight you need to type "keychain" smfh my head

sagarkamat 4y ago

Agree on most of this but Keychain Access IS a standalone app on the mac so slightly confused about the comment about it being buried in System settings. Its still a pain to go to the app and copy a password for non-Safari browsers though.

arrrg 4y ago
That app is not at all a password manager. It‘s a view and editor for all kinds of stored keys. I don’t think its target audience ever were intended to be some random macOS users. That’s just not the target group. It‘s about power users that need to access or store all kinds of keys.
leesalminen 4y ago
I just do cmd+space -> type "pass" -> Return -> fingerprint. That gets me to my iCloud Keychain. I used to use Keychain Access but like the UI of the Passwords tab of Settings more.
- maccard 4y ago
  I use 1password. cmd + shift + space opens a spotlight-like dialog for 1password. First access requires a fingerprint. It also works on Windows!

X-Istence 4y ago

> I use Safari a lot but if I'm in a different browser then my passwords are unavailable. Chrome used to be tied into Keychain but they went their own way a long time ago, which is a damn shame.

smaccona 4y ago
I guess they want compatibility/password sharing between Chrome on Mac, Windows and Linux, which I can understand.
vanilla_nut 4y ago
I believe Apple only lets you use certain APIs (like Keychain) if you distribute only through the App Store. That policy has really killed a lot of functionality on macOS. I suspect it will cause fiction on iOS when the EU forces them to allow alternative install sources. Personally, it grates me when Apple cripples functionality this way to try to keep us stuck in their platform. Can't use Firefox with Keychain. You can only view your current Apple Card balance on an iOS device -- not even a macOS device. At the end of the day, I hate being manipulated so much that it actually pushes me away from the platform to see this scummy behavior.
- smileybarry 4y ago
  > You can only view your current Apple Card balance on an iOS device -- not even a macOS device. That sounds especially annoying. An iPad next to you can auto-config itself as the umpteenth monitor of a Mac, but macOS can't pull Apple Card balance from your nearby iPhone?
  - X-Istence 4y ago
    You can use a standard web browser and login: https://card.apple.com https://card.apple.com
- someNameIG 4y ago
  Is there a reason Chrome, Edge, and Firefox aren't on the Mac app store? I know the yearly dev account costs can be an issue for small developers but Google, Microsoft, and Mozilla are already paying that as they release apps on the iOS App Store.

whstl 4y ago

There seems to be a Google Chrome extension called "iCloud Passwords" but it only has two stars, so I don't think you'll be positively surprised. Also, on iPhone it's ok-ish but on Mac the experience is a subpar too: Keychain, the app you use to view your passwords, feels like a 90s Visual Basic application. Plus you can't organize your accounts, and even if you prefix them to "sort by name", the special name you give is lost after using it. On the other hand, I already have other Apple cloud stuff and kinda trust them, so I suffer through it. And other password managers aren't anything to write home about either to make me change :/

notyourwork 4y ago
+1 to subpar on Mac. iPhone is about the only surface where its seamless/smooth. The rest leaves me constantly frustrated.
comex 4y ago
Note that macOS now has three “apps” to view your passwords, three different UIs for the same database. There’s Keychain Access, there’s the Passwords section of System Settings, and there’s the Passwords section of Safari preferences (which is the same UI as the pre-Ventura System Preferences app’s Passwords section). The other two have even less organization functionality than Keychain Access, so this probably doesn’t help you, but the blog post was talking about the System Settings version so I wanted to point it out.
kccqzy 4y ago
What's wrong with Keychain Access? It hasn't changed its appearance since more than a decade. That's a good thing for familiarity. Early Mac OS X apps have incredibly good design that doesn't waste space.
- 9dev 4y ago
  Guess which app is ripe for a Swift UI redesign soon!
- whstl 4y ago
  But it does waste a lot of space... there's a lot of duplication of keys (which are deduplicated in the iPhone app), and with other information (somehow I have hundreds of "com.apple.cloudd.deviceIdentifier.Production" in there). And I already mentioned organization fails. Plus it's kinda insecure as it enumerates your accounts exhaustively without asking for a password like iPhone/Safari (granted, not a problem specific to this app). And the interface to view the passwords is terrible. Old and familiar is not synonyms with "good". However now that comex pointed me to the Password in the "System Settings" app, I at least can use it and it's fine if Keychain is left as is.

taylorlapeyre 4y ago

Apple makes a iCloud Passwords chrome extension: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/icloud-passwords/pejdijmoenmkgeppbflobdenhhabjlaj https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/icloud-passwords/p...

hnrodey 4y ago
Maybe this was it...IIRC the user must also have iCloud For Windows installed? It's been several months since I tried this setup. For my personal user experience it was unacceptable.
joenathanone 4y ago
The reviews are brutal.
- Avery555 4y ago
  [dead]
larrik 4y ago
Windows only! It doesn't work on Mac! I honestly didn't know that was possible before that extension.
- animal_spirits 4y ago
  Chrome on mac should by default be able to work with the Apple password keychain
  - Camillo 4y ago
    Meaning it ought to, but doesn't, right?
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    No, Google has not implemented support for Keychain in Chrome. AFAIK neither has Firefox.

waboremo 4y ago

Funny situation, there's another thread I was replying to someone who wanted to shift back to native apps instead of cross plat electron apps (for performance reasons). Well, Apple Passwords on Windows is a good example of how that turns out in reality. I believe it's using WinUI. While the performance is nice, the experience is entirely unlike what you get on Mac and winds up making you wish you were using another service entirely.

porcoda 4y ago
This has been the story of Apple apps outside MacOS forever: they appear to always do the absolute minimum to claim support, and you end up with a super clunky windows app that is terrible. I doubt they’d do much better using electron: I think their development model is that if it isn’t on one of their platforms, they pump out a minimum-effort, low quality app. I’d guess that electron ones would be just as clunky, except with a significantly higher memory and CPU footprint.
- waboremo 4y ago
  That hasn't really been true. Apple supported iTunes and Safari which were great options on Windows. Not just "I'm already an Apple fan so I have to use it", but actively deciding to use them. The root of the problem for Apple is that they cannot get away with doing what they used to in the past, they already have a plethora of platforms within their own umbrella to support, adding Windows native to the mix seems to result in maybe a handful of developers taking on enormous burdens by trying to catch up to their expected Mac apps. If Apple were to seriously put its weight behind a cross-platform toolkit, this might change, especially as they want their services to grow. It's the very reason why their main service competitors can even compete. But I agree that if they were to suddenly switch to Electron without a care it wouldn't turn out well, but likely have a better end user experience than their current reveals.
  - paulryanrogers 4y ago
    So SwiftUI for Windows?

reaperducer 4y ago

I use Safari a lot but if I'm in a different browser then my passwords are unavailable. No, it's not. I alternate between Safari, Firefox, and Duck. If a password I use in Safari isn't stored in Firefox, I copy it from the Keychain program and paste it into Firefox. Firefox then asks to save it. No problem. The GUI is buried in System Settings. It has its own program. /Applications/Utilities/Keychain Access

howinteresting 4y ago
Your workflow is significantly worse than the experience I get with 1password.
NavinF 4y ago
> I copy it from the Keychain program and paste it into Firefox Woah that's the same way I used password managers 10 years ago. Even back then it was considered barbaric. I had no idea people still lived like that.
- reaperducer 4y ago
  I never stated that it was good. The previous commenter said passwords were "unavailable" outside of Safari. I merely demonstrated that his statement was false.

zitterbewegung 4y ago

You can make a shortcut that opens passwords.

Euphorbium 4y ago

2. Dont know what you are talking about, I use brave and get my passwords filled in from keychain. 3. Cmd-space keychain opens up keychain

hnrodey 4y ago
Thank you for sharing that. I was not aware. I will try this tonight!

howinteresting 4y ago

It's not just a good product if you're 100% Apple, it's only a good product if you're 100% Apple and are willing to accept a great deal of friction if Apple's direction no longer suits you in the future. It's a version of what some people call "high time preference". Personally, I was taught to care about the future.

dwaite 4y ago
They have an export-to-CSV feature. That takes a lot of the worry out of hypothetical futures.
- howinteresting 4y ago
  Still adds a great deal of friction and makes it harder to, say, experiment with an Android phone or a Linux desktop for a month. Compare that to 1password which just works.

tiffanyh 4y ago

Apple has to tread lightly on not have too robust of capabilities, especially for non-Apple ecosystem, since it might be consider anti-competitive. (e.g. Netscape vs Microsoft Internet Explorer) EDIT: why the downvotes without a reply? If you don't agree, why not just respond why so that a health dialogue can occur.

sbuk 4y ago
As stated by another poster, Netscape vs MSFT was about coercing OEMs not to include competing browsers to be pre-installed on new systems. Apple could create and give away a cross platform password manager without much fear of ramifications, unless they exclude all other password managers.

kolanos 4y ago

> 3. The GUI is buried in System Settings. Heaven forbid you need search it's only a simple 37 clicks away! Safari > Preferences > Passwords Would love to have iCloud Keychain in other browsers, though.

spullara 4y ago

You just run the Keychain Access app on a Mac.

robotresearcher 4y ago

> 3. The GUI is buried in System Settings. Heaven forbid you need search it's only a simple 37 clicks away! On Mac, at any time, type: command-space passw <return> On iOS tap <search> on any home screen, type passw, tap suggested result

arrrg 4y ago
Is this you arguing that it‘s not buried? Having to access something via a search incantation (or, alternatively, a ton of clicks) is not at all easily accessible. It’s buried alright. Obviously you can find pretty much anything on macOS and iOS via search. That‘s how it‘s should be. But that doesn’t make things accessible or even just visible.
toxik 4y ago
No results for “passw”
- throwaway290 4y ago
  I write "keychain" usually, it appears after "key" already.
  - shagie 4y ago
    I've pinned Keychain Access in my tool bar. Finder, System settings, Keychain - right at the top.
voytec 4y ago
Rebuilding Spotlight index...
kenver 4y ago
A shortcut helps https://www.icloud.com/shortcuts/71fea01c333341878e4355df52c0fcef https://www.icloud.com/shortcuts/71fea01c333341878e4355df52c...
mitemte 4y ago
Better yet, using the Shortcuts app for iOS, create a shortcut that opens a URL with `prefs:root=PASSWORDS` in Safari. For macOS, you can make the same shortcut open `/Library/Apple/System/Library/CoreServices/SafariSupport.bundle/Contents/PreferencePanes/Passwords.prefPane`. A single shortcut can be used to accomplish this, using the OS check and an `if` condition. Then add the shortcut to the home screen as an icon and it’ll also show up in Spotlight search.

michael1999 4y ago

A limited GUI is also available within Safari on desktop. It is a tab under Preferences. It makes working in Chrome bearable. Agree the UI is terrible in iOS.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

nailer 4y ago

I was about to say the same thing: Apple has a password manager? I’d consider Apple Passwords to be less than half a password manager.

baby 4y ago

I use chrome to manage passwords on all my devices, it works well except for apps. When I'm trying to get a password for an app in iOS, I just switch to chrome to get the password. Same if my password was from registering from an app and I'm in Chrome. Rinse and repeat and now my passwords are in both password managers. As for TOTP, if I lose my phone I don't know what will happen.

manigandham 4y ago
Settings > Passwords > Password Options > AutoFill Passwords + Allow Filling From Chrome Most apps can use passwords from Chrome just fine, and you can also quickly open the native passwords window when encountering a password field using the key icon. For TOTP, use apps like Authy which can be installed and used from multiple devices.
- gameshot911 4y ago
  Awesome - thanks for sharing!
notlukesky 4y ago
[dead]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

darzu 4y ago

My biggest complaint is that it doesn’t keep a history! One misclicked “remember password” at the wrong moment (safari plugin often guesses password fields wrong) and you’ve just locked yourself out of your bank account. Literally happened to me.

JustSomeNobody 4y ago

That's all by design. They want you 100% on Apple products to get the full experience.

wkat4242 4y ago
The full experience for their shareholders you mean :P

yamtaddle 4y ago

> 1. The experience on Windows is terrible. They can claim it's cross-platform but it's truly a sub-par product. Like a lot of other Apple stuff, I'm only able to use it because I don't use anything non-Apple for anything "serious" that involves a GUI. Windows is for gaming, Linux is my file storage and docker-service-running server that I only interact with over SSH and Web. Ditto Notes, all their Office-type programs, et c. I'd probably be on a lot more Google shit if I needed more cross-platform access to that stuff. > 2. On Mac it's tied specifically to Safari. I use Safari a lot but if I'm in a different browser then my passwords are unavailable. Yeah, this is super fucking weird. You'd think this would be connected in some fashion to "keychain", but nope. > 3. The GUI is buried in System Settings. Heaven forbid you need search it's only a simple 37 clicks away! IDGAF about clicks because I search my way to everything in Apple's settings—what does bother me is that they've made search worse in the last couple versions of iOS, and that if I type "pass" in search, "Passwords" isn't even visible on the list yet. I can get all the way to "password" and it's still the fourth entry. The fucking name of the screen is "passwords"! I shouldn't have to get farther than "pas" for it to be the first entry on the list, "pass" in the worst-case! Even fully typing "passwords" still leaves it as the second entry (of three) on my device. WTF.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
klodolph 4y ago
> Yeah, this is super fucking weird. You'd think this would be connected in some fashion to "keychain", but nope. Other browsers used to be able to use it. I do think it’s a really thorny issue—“allow this application to access all saved passwords?” is a pretty damn scary permission to include. Up there with the “allow this application to control your computer” permission that is used for accessibility apps (which apps can abuse to read passwords, if I understand correctly). Apple’s tradition. Make the platform more secure, add an exception for first-party apps, and let the other browsers fuck off.
- tim333 4y ago
  Something could pop up saying "Fill password for HSBC Bank?" or similar and you click one button.

jrochkind1 4y ago

OP is suggesting it's a terrible UI on iOS and Mac too, and one of their principle complaints is your #3. So OP disagree that it's even a good product if you are 100% Mac, but are suggesting the functionality is all there, it just needs an actually designed UI/UX. And/But your #2 sounds pretty terrible to me too! It does not sound like a good product at all.

maliker 4y ago

I ended up writing an AppleScript to open the Safari passwords dialog because I got sick of hunting for the proper dialog. If you save it as passwords.command and make it executable it'll open the window right up. But yeah, it's a kludge. #!/usr/bin/osascript tell application "Safari" activate end tell tell application "System Events" keystroke "," using {command down} set pass_button to (button "Passwords" of toolbar 1 of window 1 of application process "Safari") click pass_button end tell

hot_gril 4y ago

4. New passwords overwrite old ones. Easy to accidentally lose passwords in slightly odd situations like logging into an account whose password you just reset. But I like it overall. Even though I use multiple browsers, I don't mind treating Keychain as the master DB and occasionally copying passwords out of it. Part of this is because I use Safari exclusively for the extra important things like my bank.

wmeredith 4y ago

> If you are 100% Mac then it's a good product. Going outside of the walled Apple garden leaves a lot to be desired. This has been the Apple way since the 1980's

mcculley 4y ago

> 3. The GUI is buried in System Settings. Heaven forbid you need search it's only a simple 37 clicks away! I just learned that this GUI exists. I have been using /System/Applications/Utilities/Keychain Access.app for years to deal with passwords.

Mandatum 4y ago
Me too. Now to try and figure out if I can create a Macro to launch this.
alexjm 4y ago
Same. And now I'm trying to figure out if there's any advantage to using the UI in System Settings instead of the app I already know.

dwighttk 4y ago

It's not great, but the app you are looking for on macOS is Keychain Access

ajmurmann 4y ago

"If you are 100% Mac then it's a good product." I use 100% ma except for gaming. However, I use other browsers as well, so the coupling to Safari is a deal breaker.

fitzroy 4y ago

I use this Menubar short cut for Passwords, so it's only 2 clicks and fingerprint away. https://www.icloud.com/shortcuts/22133925f3e34579b22951d65932ae20 https://www.icloud.com/shortcuts/22133925f3e34579b22951d6593...

OsintOtter69 4y ago

Last pass had a major incident recently iirc.

palata 4y ago
I moved to Bitwarden right after it, and I can't believe how much better it is in terms of UX \o/. I whish I had made the move years earlier.
- anurag_baddam 4y ago
  Have there been any known incidents with Bitwarden?

xivzgrev 4y ago

Also, if your phone is stolen / lost and someone can guess your 6 digit passcode, then all your passwords are exposed. That was biggest deal killer for me.

dclowd9901 4y ago

I’m all in for personal web browsing. Safari is a great browser basically 99% of the time and having free synced passwords (and really any critical data!) between my desktop, phone and tablet, I get tremendous value. For work, I use chrome and chrome password management because my company uses gmail.

ikura 4y ago

Don’t use System Settings to find passwords, open Keychain Access instead, it’s much more direct for searching.

ar9av 4y ago

The main limitation of Apple's passwords implementation for me is lack of sharing. For accounts that my wife and I both need access to, we can have them in a shared location in bitwarden, but there's no comparable feature with Apple's. I'll probably even start paying for bitwarden so that I can share with more than one other person when my kids are old enough to need access to them

followben 4y ago
Yeah, this is a bugbear. FWIW my wife and I "share" keychain items by airdropping them to one another as required. It works, but nowhere near as nice as having a common record we can both maintain.
- lampshades 4y ago
  My wife and I do the same and it actually works better than sharing because my wife understands how to do it without me trying to teach her.
Jnr 4y ago
I'm using self hosted Vaultwarden (open source implementation of the backend) and the password sharing feature is very nice to have.

divan 4y ago

> > 3. The GUI is buried in System Settings. Heaven forbid you need search it's only a simple 37 clicks away! On iOS you can ask Siri "show my passwords". Doesn't seem to work on MacOS though.

thih9 4y ago

> The GUI is buried in System Settings. Heaven forbid you need search it's only a simple 37 clicks away! I do: Cmd+space > "keychain" > Enter. Still not ideal but it's the fastest method I know. What do you mean, i.e. how do you access the GUI from the system settings? I tried finding keychain there but couldn't figure out where it is.

aequitas 4y ago
It's available as "Passwords" in the system settings. I think they added it recently to align it with iOS and iPadOS, where there is no mention of it being Keychain at all.
- thih9 4y ago
  That's way nicer than what I've been using (i.e. Keychain Access). I'll likely switch to Passwords. Thanks!

AdamN 4y ago

Serious question but what do you use Windows for? I don't know alot of people that use Windows anymore so just wondering is it a work requirement?

andrewmutz 4y ago
It's still widely used for gaming
makeitdouble 4y ago
Went the other route, sold my iPad and went with a Surface instead... the short of it: It's inelegant, there's bugs, the UI is half-assed and some aspects are straight hostile (default widgets etc.). But it's an actual generic computer. Most task you assume you could do with a computer, there will be a way to do it. It might take some efforts to get to a decent setup, but the walled garden was also a PITA, so all in all, I felt my time is better invested in making windows a nice place than the endless fighting of Apple on iOS. As a halo effect, I'm kinda thinking about moving to Windows on my main computer as well on the next refresh cycle...not fully decided, but that feels like a viable option.