4 ms·

but only in certain professions - you try getting a builder/electrician/plumber to do unpaid overtime! why programmers are suckers for this is a bit of a myster

but only in certain professions - you try getting a builder/electrician/plumber to do unpaid overtime! why programmers are suckers for this is a bit of a mystery.

sokoloff 4y ago
I’ve done a fair bit of not-specifically-compensated overtime over my career. In my 20s and early 30s, if I didn’t have anything going on socially or sports on a given evening, I was pretty likely going to write code (for enjoyment). Sometimes that was for me, but often it was for the company. Doing what I enjoy is why I was a sucker in your estimation.
- zabzonk 4y ago
  yes, i certainly used the university that i worked for facilities when i was starting out, but only for my own projects (arguably bad, i might admit) - i never did or have done any work for my employers that i wasn't compensated for, and i can't imagine why anyone would.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  I don't think you're a sucker, and I have any number of things you could work on for me, for free.
- jakelazaroff 4y ago
  I mean, yes? You could have built side projects, contributed to open source, freelanced, etc. There are a ton of ways to do what you enjoy without allowing someone to profit off your unpaid labor.
sage76 4y ago
Where I live, programmers tend to be book smart and very arrogant about it. Plenty of people from my college and department genuinely think they are smarter than everyone else. This blinds them to the kind of street smarts required to understand even basic ideas of how to not get exploited, the utility of unions, power dynamics between employers and employees.
- yieldcrv 4y ago
  > the utility of unions I admit this was a blindspot for me, and it was mostly a representation problem. simply put, all the examples I had were blue collar jobs, paying a cut of their lesser (but union inflated) salary to a union organization they had issues with. I saw high profile futility. Union tried to negotiate something expensive, the company collapsed and laid off the entire town. People marching in a circle for 3 months in one city, against a multinational corporation that shouldn't really need to care. The people forming unions making demands that didn't seem ambitious enough. I felt I was optimizing my salary, based on the current reality. But I've come to a different view, mostly that others in the working class are pitted against each other. Like, other workers are dismissive to highly compensated employees because of the numbers involved. But this is only beneficial to the executives, board and owners. I'm dismayed at how this sounds like a marxist handbook, instead of looking at how other developed nations do it. I've been inspired by codetermination in Germany, where the unions has like half of the board seats by law. Its like that perspective is completely missing in the US, in favor of false dilemmas trying to avoid marxist leanings. I think more education on this topic is beneficial. People react to what they see.
  - whitemary 4y ago
    > I'm dismayed at how this sounds like a marxist handbook, instead of looking at how other developed nations do it. I've been inspired by codetermination in Germany, where the unions has like half of the board seats by law. Guess who's to thank for that German policy...it begins with an 'M' and ends with 'ists.'
    - yieldcrv 4y ago
      Its nice to see compromise actually work amongst coalition parties competing amongst like 7 other parties with representation. Even though that is not possible in the US, I think there is room for inspiration from a working system which can reach consensus. If there was more knowledge of that, plenty of people and representatives in the US would say "huh, that's actually a good idea". Worker board representation so to have influence on decisions that affect workers, not just the trendiest companies giving some shares out willy nilly.
SteveGerencser 4y ago
Because the barrier to entry in programming is zero. Or near enough to it. Code on your free time, learn php on your free time. Suddenly you are WordPress developer. Learning a trade can require very expensive tools, often time as an apprentice or journeyman, and learning at the very first stage of your career that your labor has value and you need to charge for that. I can hire a programmer from anywhere in the world and often incredibly cheaply. I can't do that with a tradesman, they actually have to be local, often have more work than they can ever get done, and know that I can't outsource the construction project to someone 1,000 miles away.
- dilyevsky 4y ago
  > I can hire a programmer from anywhere in the world and often incredibly cheaply This has been tried many times with quite predictable results and you’re incorrect that you can’t hire tradesmen from far away - happens all the time.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    Anytime I have a plumbing job, I can’t get a plumber to drive more than 10 miles to come do it.
    - dilyevsky 4y ago
      Small jobs sure, i had arborist crew come out all the way from Fresno, it's not uncommon to see texans building homes in NorCal, etc
- Aeolun 4y ago
  > Because the barrier to entry in programming is zero. Sure, a 10000 hour moat is not a moat at all.
  - throw10920 4y ago
    Barrier to entry. Not to mastery. You can write useful scripts with 100 hours of experience or less for some specific problems.
astrange 4y ago
Programmers are salaried/equity holding exempt employees so it's not unpaid.
- zabzonk 4y ago
  on the contrary, most programmers i've worked with have been contractors/consultants, paid by the hour.
  - astrange 4y ago
    Self employed contractors or working for a consulting firm? Cause I'd think the first would have pricing power over their own time.
- bluefirebrand 4y ago
  Your salary is still on a contract for a certain number of hours per week. Any hours past that are unpaid in that regard and effectively reduce your salary.
  - lunaticlabs 4y ago
    It's like that in the USA, where I used to live. I live in Germany now, and I am a salaried employee. The law here doesn't generally allow any non-remunerated work beyond 10%-15%, and your daily work hour average over a 6 month period cannot exceed 8 hours. Anything above that, and they have to pay my hourly rate times a multiplier depending on how far over or if they are weekend/nighttime hours. I believe they're also required to pay for "on-call" hours, whether you are actually called in or not, at a lesser rate. All of this is statutory, not specific to my contract. Not surprisingly, I'm no longer on the pager duty rotation.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    I don't think that's true? I've never seen a Tech contract that specifies the Baseline hours.
    - 4y ago
s1artibartfast 4y ago
Aren't programmers predominantly salaried positions? I haven't met many hourly programmers that do a lot of overtime for free.
- zabzonk 4y ago
  > Aren't programmers predominantly salaried positions? an interesting question. i am now retired, but annecdotaly at the last two investment banks i worked for: equity trading: 5 permanent staff, 6 contractors back office: 1 permanent staff, 5 contractors so mostly non-salaried
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    Hourly contractors or salaried contractors?
_trampeltier 4y ago
Latelty we had a discusion about that too. There was a story from a hairdresser women who worked for 20 years and never git a raise in her salary. She worked for almost nothing. But I think person like this hairdresser are gulty too. Because they all work for this low salary, of course the boss would be stupid to pay more. All, every single person, who work overtime for free is kind of guilty.
seanmcdirmid 4y ago
Blue collar work has to be compensated with overtime. Many electricians/builders/plumbers are independent contractors, so they either get paid for job or by the hour or whatever, they make their own rules. Programming is considered white collar work for some reason, we are generally considered to be salaried employees, unless they are contracting.

but only in certain professions - you try getting a builder/electrician/plumber to do unpaid overtime! why programmers are suckers for this is a bit of a mystery.

sokoloff 4y ago

I’ve done a fair bit of not-specifically-compensated overtime over my career. In my 20s and early 30s, if I didn’t have anything going on socially or sports on a given evening, I was pretty likely going to write code (for enjoyment). Sometimes that was for me, but often it was for the company. Doing what I enjoy is why I was a sucker in your estimation.

zabzonk 4y ago
yes, i certainly used the university that i worked for facilities when i was starting out, but only for my own projects (arguably bad, i might admit) - i never did or have done any work for my employers that i wasn't compensated for, and i can't imagine why anyone would.
pessimizer 4y ago
I don't think you're a sucker, and I have any number of things you could work on for me, for free.
jakelazaroff 4y ago
I mean, yes? You could have built side projects, contributed to open source, freelanced, etc. There are a ton of ways to do what you enjoy without allowing someone to profit off your unpaid labor.

sage76 4y ago

Where I live, programmers tend to be book smart and very arrogant about it. Plenty of people from my college and department genuinely think they are smarter than everyone else. This blinds them to the kind of street smarts required to understand even basic ideas of how to not get exploited, the utility of unions, power dynamics between employers and employees.

yieldcrv 4y ago
> the utility of unions I admit this was a blindspot for me, and it was mostly a representation problem. simply put, all the examples I had were blue collar jobs, paying a cut of their lesser (but union inflated) salary to a union organization they had issues with. I saw high profile futility. Union tried to negotiate something expensive, the company collapsed and laid off the entire town. People marching in a circle for 3 months in one city, against a multinational corporation that shouldn't really need to care. The people forming unions making demands that didn't seem ambitious enough. I felt I was optimizing my salary, based on the current reality. But I've come to a different view, mostly that others in the working class are pitted against each other. Like, other workers are dismissive to highly compensated employees because of the numbers involved. But this is only beneficial to the executives, board and owners. I'm dismayed at how this sounds like a marxist handbook, instead of looking at how other developed nations do it. I've been inspired by codetermination in Germany, where the unions has like half of the board seats by law. Its like that perspective is completely missing in the US, in favor of false dilemmas trying to avoid marxist leanings. I think more education on this topic is beneficial. People react to what they see.
- whitemary 4y ago
  > I'm dismayed at how this sounds like a marxist handbook, instead of looking at how other developed nations do it. I've been inspired by codetermination in Germany, where the unions has like half of the board seats by law. Guess who's to thank for that German policy...it begins with an 'M' and ends with 'ists.'
  - yieldcrv 4y ago
    Its nice to see compromise actually work amongst coalition parties competing amongst like 7 other parties with representation. Even though that is not possible in the US, I think there is room for inspiration from a working system which can reach consensus. If there was more knowledge of that, plenty of people and representatives in the US would say "huh, that's actually a good idea". Worker board representation so to have influence on decisions that affect workers, not just the trendiest companies giving some shares out willy nilly.

SteveGerencser 4y ago

Because the barrier to entry in programming is zero. Or near enough to it. Code on your free time, learn php on your free time. Suddenly you are WordPress developer. Learning a trade can require very expensive tools, often time as an apprentice or journeyman, and learning at the very first stage of your career that your labor has value and you need to charge for that. I can hire a programmer from anywhere in the world and often incredibly cheaply. I can't do that with a tradesman, they actually have to be local, often have more work than they can ever get done, and know that I can't outsource the construction project to someone 1,000 miles away.

dilyevsky 4y ago
> I can hire a programmer from anywhere in the world and often incredibly cheaply This has been tried many times with quite predictable results and you’re incorrect that you can’t hire tradesmen from far away - happens all the time.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  Anytime I have a plumbing job, I can’t get a plumber to drive more than 10 miles to come do it.
  - dilyevsky 4y ago
    Small jobs sure, i had arborist crew come out all the way from Fresno, it's not uncommon to see texans building homes in NorCal, etc
Aeolun 4y ago
> Because the barrier to entry in programming is zero. Sure, a 10000 hour moat is not a moat at all.
- throw10920 4y ago
  Barrier to entry. Not to mastery. You can write useful scripts with 100 hours of experience or less for some specific problems.

astrange 4y ago

Programmers are salaried/equity holding exempt employees so it's not unpaid.

zabzonk 4y ago
on the contrary, most programmers i've worked with have been contractors/consultants, paid by the hour.
- astrange 4y ago
  Self employed contractors or working for a consulting firm? Cause I'd think the first would have pricing power over their own time.
bluefirebrand 4y ago
Your salary is still on a contract for a certain number of hours per week. Any hours past that are unpaid in that regard and effectively reduce your salary.
- lunaticlabs 4y ago
  It's like that in the USA, where I used to live. I live in Germany now, and I am a salaried employee. The law here doesn't generally allow any non-remunerated work beyond 10%-15%, and your daily work hour average over a 6 month period cannot exceed 8 hours. Anything above that, and they have to pay my hourly rate times a multiplier depending on how far over or if they are weekend/nighttime hours. I believe they're also required to pay for "on-call" hours, whether you are actually called in or not, at a lesser rate. All of this is statutory, not specific to my contract. Not surprisingly, I'm no longer on the pager duty rotation.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  I don't think that's true? I've never seen a Tech contract that specifies the Baseline hours.
  - 4y ago

s1artibartfast 4y ago

Aren't programmers predominantly salaried positions? I haven't met many hourly programmers that do a lot of overtime for free.

zabzonk 4y ago
> Aren't programmers predominantly salaried positions? an interesting question. i am now retired, but annecdotaly at the last two investment banks i worked for: equity trading: 5 permanent staff, 6 contractors back office: 1 permanent staff, 5 contractors so mostly non-salaried
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  Hourly contractors or salaried contractors?

_trampeltier 4y ago

Latelty we had a discusion about that too. There was a story from a hairdresser women who worked for 20 years and never git a raise in her salary. She worked for almost nothing. But I think person like this hairdresser are gulty too. Because they all work for this low salary, of course the boss would be stupid to pay more. All, every single person, who work overtime for free is kind of guilty.

seanmcdirmid 4y ago

Blue collar work has to be compensated with overtime. Many electricians/builders/plumbers are independent contractors, so they either get paid for job or by the hour or whatever, they make their own rules. Programming is considered white collar work for some reason, we are generally considered to be salaried employees, unless they are contracting.