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I unschool my 5 kids. This is how much it costs
- prteja11 4y agoPrevious Discussion from yesterday (Mar 22): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35265299 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35265299
- tpmx 4y agoI wouldn't recommend this unless the previous public school experience was hellish for the kid. Honestly, home-schooling is such a weird, american idea. Like all things american, it's spreading though.
- enlyth 4y agoAgreed, the most valuable skill learned in school is how to socialize.
- wincy 4y agoRight, like I learned how to get kicked onto the ground at recess and to make sure not to get up until they were good and done kicking or I’d get a black eye. Or my wife learned to get back rubs from her male teacher in middle school. All very important parts of the socialization process.
- alex_lav 4y agoIt's definitely feeling in this thread like learning to "socialize" is A.) Always positive, and B.) a fixed, shared experience We must force kids through
- throwanem 4y agoNow that's something I would expect to see a European call an American idea. Go figure, I suppose.
- wincy 4y agoRight. Based on how awful my school experience was, and my wife’s, even though she could be working and commanding a similar salary to mine, we’re home schooling both of our kids. Our older daughter is the most popular kid in the neighborhood. Everyone wants to play with her. Because she’s home school, she went over and helped a little girl who was just adopted and hasn’t started school yet feel right at home the other day. Our other daughter is physically disabled and could hold her breath and die at any moment. If she was forced to go to a public school I have no doubt she’d be in the emergency room or worse within the course of a week.
- margorczynski 4y agoFor some it is a hellhole that pushes them to commit suicide or at least attempt it. Thankfully that is not my experience but we shouldn't ignore the bad examples of "socializing" in school and potential solutions to it.
- kayodelycaon 4y agoConsidering I was bullied by children, teachers, and staff until I was suicidal most of fourth grade, I have my doubts. I was moved to a different school but it couldn’t undo the damaged that caused. I didn’t learn how to socialize until my second year of college. It wasn’t until my thirties that much of the psychological damage was revealed and addressed.
- gambiting 4y agoI'm sorry to hear that, but that's just an anecdote. I've never been bullied, only attended public schools, and the idea of home schooling a kid is just beyond weird. It's not even legal where I'm from(Poland) and I believe for very good reasons.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- Syonyk 4y ago> ...how to socialize. Ah, yes. The "Socialization" argument brought up every time people mention homeschooling, as though there aren't homeschool coops and plenty of other ways to interact with people of a wide variety of ages, instead of just your own age. And if you drill down, it usually ends up being some version of "Well, I had to deal with the fact that other kids are little shits for 12+ years, so everyone else should have to as well." In my experience, homeschooled kids are "a bit weird" as kids, but tend to interact smoothly with a far wider variety of ages, and they tend to not stand out as anything different as adults - except perhaps a lot more interested in longer form learning. If I run into someone who's got an oddly wide range of skills, odds are good they were homeschooled.
- hackerlight 4y agoIf you homeschool then your kids can have friends with people older and younger than them and aren't subject to bullying. Isn't that more healthy than having your kid only exposed to people of exactly the same age and maturity level, and potentially develop issues from bullying?
- pacomerh 4y agoFor some reason people think homeschooling means never seeing and socializing with other kids, which is definitely not the case. I feel like people think it's a pandemic type situation. It's not as simple as go to school and learn to socialize period. Not all kids are the same, not all families are the same, for some it works for some others it's a ridiculous idea.
- overboard2 4y agohttps://youtu.be/4LpY3FKyYbA https://youtu.be/4LpY3FKyYbA
- gautamdivgi 4y agoElementary school is generally a great time for kids to make friends and generally goof off. I have a 2nd grader and 6th graders. Both really happy and it’s public school. 6th grader will head to jr high (we do k-6 elementary) so have to see how that goes. I don’t have complaints against public schools. Both my kids look forward to going.
- sneak 4y agoHome schooling isn't weird; it was the default for most of human history.
- vel0city 4y agoIndoor plumbing wasn't the norm for most of human history. I'd still think it weird if people started digging latrines in their backyards.
- Bouncingsoul1 4y agoyeah... and also for the most part is was default to not be able to read and write. Rising literacy levels can be directly linked to the funding of schools in the 18-20th century.
- misssocrates 4y agoIsn't the industrial state school model outdated by at least 50 years? What can't you learn with books, Khan Academy, Youtube, ChatGPT? Socialization you can get anywhere. From her list: Forest School, Badminton, Swimming, Football, Gymnastics, Annual membership to Paradise Park, Annual membership to Drusillas Park
- yamazakiwi 4y agoWhat can I learn at an industrialized school that I couldn't otherwise? I definitely would have never learned about that 9/11 suicide compilation video a kid at school showed me.
- HideousKojima 4y agoYes, better to leave your child's education to the state, the state would never think to damage family cohesion or try to undermine any ideas that pose a threat to its power.
- Apocryphon 4y agoIn school I also learned that peace is an unnatural state for human society. And that war is a constant threat to our relationship with others. So, to achieve peace, we have to create it ourselves. Crying about it won't bring it about, or make it last. Each one of us must go and seek it out.
- warbeforepeace 4y ago[flagged]
- alex_lav 4y agoWhat's weird about it?
- Amezarak 4y agoI don't have strong feelings on the subject, but I find it bizarre that you'd find what most people traditionally did for almost all of human history up to a little more than the last century a "weird, American idea." And you get most of the rest by counting "just a few kids from the local area" rather than a mass state-sponsored institution.
- jojobas 4y agoUnschooling is not home-schooling. Homeschooling typically means one of the parents or somebody in a pool of families follows some kind of curriculum still, unschooling expects kids to learn from... something.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- freehorse 4y agoHonestly, all this sounds such an american, middle class thing: the public X is shit, and everything is up to the individual. I am not saying public education is great where I grew up, and I can definitely imagine doing what I wanted being better in many ways (anyway this is how it turned out to be in last classes in practice more or less), what I cannot imagine is my working class parents handling that situation, esp with like 5 kids, as they worked jobs that involved being in their workplace for 8 hours per day, and they could not get away with working for 1-3 hours on a laptop here and there and wherever the kids' activities were supposed to be. But that is also not taking into account other things, like providing intellectual stimulation/mentors in areas where the parents are not experts/educated, which sometimes is not trivial. And while schools are indeed a hit and miss in this stuff, ime private tutoring is usually not a better choice (and adds up in the bill essentially). This could be solved in different ways granted a wide and strong social circle/community, but that is probably not what all this is about in the land of individualism.
- pictur 4y agoToo experimental. It is a subject whose outcome will probably be very uncertain.
- Syonyk 4y agoI could say the same thing about "Let's put EduTech in front of students, as pushed by for-profit companies, with one tablet per child sort of programs." Except, unfortunately, it's not very experimental at this point. It's well demonstrated that it doesn't do a damned thing for educational outcomes - but it is, at least, very profitable for the EdTech companies who, when pinned down on it not working, assure you that if you buy the next version, they'll fix it. We know that the current public school approaches aren't working very well for vast numbers of students. So, yes, I'll take "experimental by parents who care."
- withinboredom 4y agoSeems like an American problem. As an American expat, with a son in a local public school, I feel qualified to say that. Where I live, homeschooling is illegal. Everyone goes to whichever school they want to though. There are literally 6! elementary schools within walking distance of my house, and I live in the suburbs. The playgrounds are open and the kids play after schools and on the weekends, so they have friends in-and-out of their classes. But yeah, I agree the American schooling system has failed. Probably before I was even born.
- chomp 4y ago£1382 plus missed opportunity cost depending on the job that affords them to work for X hours per day (while the kids are being unschooled?), plus cost of risk that the kids are shouldering from risk of negative impact them due to unschooling. The price tag looks attractive but the externalities weigh heavily.
- nichohel 4y agoLet's not forget the potentially large offsetting negative impacts from schooling! Violence, abusive peers and teachers, disinterested teachers and systems leading to wasted years and loss for love of learning, I could go on. And I don't think you mean "externalities" though you might.
- Syonyk 4y ago> ...loss for love of learning... I'm still quite irritated, decades later, that the end result of my high school Honors English program was to take entire groups of people who clearly loved reading, and teach them to hate books. I kept in touch with a range of them, and almost none of us read a book for fun, for a decade after high school - because HS Honors English taught us that we couldn't properly understand a book unless we sliced it into tiny pieces, analyzed all the literary metaphors, and generally we weren't any good at that anyway, only the English Teacher could properly appreciate the book. And don't you dare read ahead of the assigned section! I don't remember the plots of stuff I read, but I remember that grass was green to symbolize new life, rebirth, hope, etc. And I learned to bullshit. It was miserable. And after four years, nobody touched books again outside requirements. It was awful.
- anotheruser13 4y agoI had a high school teacher who did that with Shakespeare. More's the pity. Fortunately, it didn't decrease the enjoyment and entertainment I get from reading for pleasure, just the books that were part of the curriculum.
- withinboredom 4y ago
- 908B64B197 4y agoHow will the kids be able to navigate modern life without anti-racist math [0] ? [0] https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11/1_STRIDE1.pdf https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11...
- user-the-name 4y agoDid you actually read that?
- burnished 4y agoI vouched for you, reasonable question, I got a few pages in and expected something reasonable. The first example set of white supremacy in math read as extremely tenuous by linking pedagogical techniques to overt white supremicist philosophy. An example that stuck out to me because I also think there are better ways was the teaching of maths as a linear sequence - seems much more clearly the result of an education pipeline focused on producing physicists and engineers than white supremacy. Readers wondering how else you would do it; more like a tree structure, some pre-reqs make sense but there is an astounding volume of useful introductory math that is approachable once you have mastered arithmetic and are comfortable performing algebra. Logic, digital logic, linear algebra, probability, statistics (we can call that three things though given that two sets of two examples are closely related). Loads of stuff
- hkon 4y agoWould love to see homeschooling becoming a trend.
- gautamdivgi 4y agoWhy would you have that happen? Serious question. Isn’t that putting kids in an echo chamber and restricting their access to friends?
- eloff 4y agoThat’s not necessary. There’s no reason you can’t socialize your kids via the usual extracurricular sports and activities that they’re going to do anyway.
- alex_lav 4y agoAre public schools always better than an echo chamber? Does homeschooling always result in an echo chamber? Do kids always have friends in public schools? There seem to be quite a few assumptions in your thinking.
- bcrosby95 4y ago> always Nothing ever always' anything. Thinking in terms of always or never is pointless.
- alex_lav 4y agoExactly! So with that in mind, rereading the post I responded to: > Why would you have that happen? Serious question. Isn’t that putting kids in an echo chamber and restricting their access to friends? The answer is obvious.
- gautamdivgi 4y agoNot sure why you were downvoted. You’re kind of right about the assumption. Most folks who I know opt for homeschooling did so for religious reasons. I’m unsure if there are others. So, yes there’s assumptions built in. It’s just that I’m trying to get past them.
- blowski 4y agoMy son is 9 and attends a standard British primary school. Today, he was explaining that two of his friends are arguing a lot because they can’t agree on rules to a game. He’s trying to stay friends with both of them, and has figured out that getting involved in the argument makes this harder. These are the essential lessons home-schooled kids typically miss.
- itronitron 4y agoAre his friends learning the lesson as well? Because they are also in school.
- nraf 4y agoI'm glad your child is learning valuable social lessons. If anything, I learned how to appease people to fit in and make them like me at school. It wasn't until the last 2-3 years (I'm in my thirties now) after on a startup for the past 7 years that I started to better understand, explore and comprehend my personal psychology. It was until these last couple years that I learned that it’s not job to fix problems between people and that often it just makes things worse.
- withinboredom 4y agoSounds like you are human. Hello human. Men don’t really get the ability to (truly) grasp abstract ideas until the late twenties. Women get that ability earlier. In our thirties (all humans) learn to apply that abstract thinking to ourselves. In our forties, our heart finally stops growing and we become a full adult. Never discount your past, no matter how terrible and/or great it was. It’s part of who you are, part of what makes you, you. Embrace it, learn from it, and look forward. Yes, that is easier said than done.
- ZephyrBlu 4y ago> Men don’t really get the ability to (truly) grasp abstract ideas until the late twenties. Women get that ability earlier ??? What does that even mean in practical terms?
- foolinaround 4y agohttps://archive.ph/M7VAc https://archive.ph/M7VAc
- millzlane 4y agoAs someone who was homeschooled for a year by a private company, it works when it's one on one everyday and the teacher isn't someone who thinks unschooling (Taking kids away from some sort of educational framework) is a good idea.
- bitshiftfaced 4y agoI know that I could figure out what they mean by "unschooling" by clicking around and searching. It's just that it feels a bit annoying to read an article about it, have it mentioned several times, but not be told what it's supposed to mean. I take it it's supposed to be a cool way of saying homeschool.
- regus 4y agoIn a previous thread the author mentioned that it is homeschooling without a set curriculum.
- dbcurtis 4y agoThat’s one definition. I like “study what you want but you must study something.”. I have also seen what I call “raised by wolves” labeled as unschooling. We homeschooled, but it was somewhere between “school at home” and unschooling. It was structured, there was a core, but kid could follow there interests, assuming core was being served.
- bmj 4y agoThis is absolutely correct. There really is no single definition of unschooling and even homeschooling. I know families that say they "homeschool" their kids, yet those kids attend an "academy" three days a week that provides the curriculum, teaching, and homework. The parents really just make sure the kids do their work. This is very distinct from what my wife and I did -- pulling together a curriculum ourselves, and doing 75% of the teaching.
- ldehaan 4y agoits another way to say homeschooling, but with an emphasis on what the kid wants to do and not on a govt provided curriculum.
- luizcdc 4y agoYou could say it's homeschooling without the pressure to follow some arbitrary curriculum.
- gambiting 4y agoI've read this and I still have no idea what unschooling is. Does the author mean that they literally pulled their kids out of school and instead they just do open university courses? That's mad. Like actually 100% mad. In fact I don't think that should even be legal.
- jojobas 4y agoThere's a good reason it's illegal in many countries.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- crtasm 4y agoWhat is that reason?
- HideousKojima 4y agoAt least in Germany, literally Hitler, not even joking. The Nazis outlawed homeschooling in 1938 and neither East nor West Germany ever repealed the law, it's still the one on the books: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2008/feb/24/schools.uk https://www.theguardian.com/education/2008/feb/24/schools.uk
- itronitron 4y agoThe author is only listing those items that have costs so there might be other educational activities that the children are pursuing. Also curious to know if open university courses are not considered to be educational for teens.
- czbond 4y agoI'd suggest unschooling is good if the parents are regimented, habitual, and knowledgeable or willing to put in all the work. Teachers learn how to alter teaching styles to a child, and to repeat information often. Parents have none of this training. I see enough "hippy, uneducated types" unschool and it becomes dramatically less effective for the child. The child becomes unable to deal with routines, may be less social [depending on outside activities], very weak in the areas their parents are weak in, and often behind a grade level or two. While yes, they may be a more "creative, free spirit" at times - that only gets you so far.
- thenerdhead 4y agoThere's always an obsession with how much something costs. You could do this cheaper. It would be much more beneficial to learn about "how" you unschool, not just a receipt of extra curriculars or supplemental materials. How much is it costing you to teach english, history, math, etc? What curriculum are you using if any? How far is your kid's natural curiosity going compared to a public standard? At least that would make this more interesting to read.
- yieldcrv 4y agoHere, I would question this more if it was 1 or 2 children, instead of 5. I've come around on this. I've seen a variety of schooling concepts and the ones with the most group autonomy had the most motivated children. And they integrated and socialized just fine after the high school equivalent. A significant factor in my changing thoughts comes from recognizing that socializing can be done in extracurricular activities and in your community. What grade schools aim to prepare you for isn't necessarily relevant. ie. colleges and corporations. Even the good ones are only preparing you for that, and you also don't need grade school to be eligible for those things, or other things.
- stranded22 4y agoSomeone from my work fell down the rabbit hole of homeschooling - her spelling and grammar was poor and she was (is) into 'alternative' therapies etc. Each to their own but I do feel that children need to be around their peers and learning a set curriculum. By taking her 12 year old out of school, she has removed many career roles from him and limited his future (she'd argue that she's freed him, no doubt). By all means home school but there should be a basic set of facts taught - not that antibacterial oils kill viruses (for example - a real home work she set)
- foogazi 4y ago> Each to their own but I do feel that children need to be around their peers and learning a set curriculum which one ?
- wink 4y agoI had a teacher one year in elementary school whose use of my native language was kinda bad, my mom was kinda furious that people were taken for these positions (I guess math would've been fine, but not the native language). So not sure your point holds, except for homeschooled kids if the parents can't spell they're stuck with those teachers for longer than a year. FWIW, I don't have a bone to pick with the public school system in general, although I didn't enjoy it very much in the last few years. The thing is that I doubt homeschooling (if it was allowed here) would have improved a lot.
- kthejoker2 4y agoThis comment section is 99% preconceived biases and notions about homeschooling and nothing to do with the article. Can dang or someone just preemptively run the article through a "pro" / "con" ChatGPT prompt on the overall topic and then delete comments not directly related to the article. To avoid hypocrisy: this is a ridiculous amount of money to spend on books and crafts a month. Do they not have libraries?
- secstate 4y agoHard agree. Might as well just call this "Ask HN: What are your opinions of homeschooled kids" and be done with it.
- satisfice 4y agoUnschooling costs literally nothing. This person is talking about homeschooling-lite. We unschooled our son from the age of 12. This is how you do it: don’t do anything other than what you normally do as a family to live your lives. My son eventually wrote a novel, got married. And is our live-in computer builder and handyman. He, his wife, and my wife run an eBay-based jewelry store. Anyway, unschooling is absence of any organized intervention in some else’s education. I have unschooled myself since the age of 16, and I make a good enough living.