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I'm glad some people have perspective on this issue. I remember MG Siegler's ridiculous article about why he hated Android[1] and just how furiously angry he wa

I'm glad some people have perspective on this issue. I remember MG Siegler's ridiculous article about why he hated Android[1] and just how furiously angry he was that they didn't deliver on some overly ambitious promise to take out the phone carriers. Yet when he (reluctantly) took the time to write about the recent Foxconn issues[2], he tried to deflect blame from Apple because they're simply an easy target considering they're "now arguably the most successful company on the planet." No furious anger, no outrage, just a simple "uh well shit happens, its unfortunate." What kind of hypocrisy must exist inside someone's head to be capable of writing both of those articles? What's worse is that nearly every article MG's written this past week or so has been about just how amazingly-super-awesome it is that Apple made so much money. Apparently it's all great to be the most "successful company on the planet", but heaven forbid anyone dare look at how those profits are earned in a critical light. But but but Mom, Samsung is doing it too!! No one is going to change their manufacturing practices as long as a company like Apple is reaping in some of the largest profits in recorded history using Foxconn style labor as a foundation. [1]: http://parislemon.com/post/15604811641/why-i-hate-android http://parislemon.com/post/15604811641/why-i-hate-android [2]: http://parislemon.com/post/16561630035/this-is-why-we-cant-have-nice-things http://parislemon.com/post/16561630035/this-is-why-we-cant-h...

huxley 15y ago
You had me up until "No one is going to change their manufacturing practices as long as a company like Apple is reaping in some of the largest profits in recorded history using Foxconn style labor as a foundation." You are doing the exact same thing that you accused MG Siegler of doing, you're minimizing an abuse of workers. I like Apple gear a lot and I'm enough of a fan to hate seeing them getting attacked, but I agree that they need to step up and force Foxconn and their other suppliers to provide as safe working conditions and fair employment as they would if they were in Cupertino. However, if Apple fails to, that doesn't give Samsung, Dell or any other manufacturers a free pass to screw Chinese workers.
- oldstrangers 15y ago
  Of course it doesn't give the other manufactures a free pass... I'm simply saying that companies will more often than not try to emulate Apple's practices. Apple is in the best position of any company to fix these problems. So in that respect, applying pressure at the top of the corporate food chain isn't an unreasonable thing to do.
  - beatle 15y ago
    There is NOTHING a foreign-owned company can do to change something that is so fundamental to China's culture and politics. This is the responsibility of Foxconn and the Chinese Government. This is the norm in China because the Chinese government itself encourages, supports and even demands this kind of labor conditions.
    - sambeau 15y ago
      You have to crush some grapes to make some wine? Mr Otis regrets that his company profits from using sweatshops But to trade with these small countries youve got to afford the pay offs Its not HIM exploiting them, its their own governments, running their countries on bribes. And besides, he pays £10 a month to charity and that will apparently save 5 lives. http://www.myspace.com/scroobiuspip/blog/161467332 http://www.myspace.com/scroobiuspip/blog/161467332 Heard here @15:15: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01b8zvx/Poetry_Please_Music_and_Lyrics/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01b8zvx/Poetry_Please_...
      - beatle 15y ago
        Foxconn is exploiting its workers. not Apple.
    - oldstrangers 15y ago
      You surely can't be that naive. There are numerous things a foreign company can do, such as leaving the country entirely. Threaten to withdraw unless China and Foxconn begin to take these issues more seriously. At $13 billion a quarter in profit and $100 billion in cash, it's not like Apple doesn't have a choice as to where their products are made. Another idea is to offer financial incentives for factories that meet strict safety requirements. Offer them better terms, longer contracts, etc.
Niten 15y ago
Even leaving aside completely the issue of working conditions in the factories that produce all these smartphones running any OS, one could make a strong case that Apple is more "evil" than Google on account of its restrictive policies around iOS. Apple wants a future in which we can't do anything with the devices we own which isn't sanctioned by them. No imagination is required to realize how this will be – and in some cases, already has been – abused by Apple themselves and by the governments which hold sufficient power over the company. Moreover, Apple is abusing the legal system of the United States and other countries, trying to eliminate competitors through bogus patent claims and lobbying for legislation that would make jailbreaking illegal, in order to hasten this future. As others have stated here, I don't think there's great utility in arguing over which company is more "evil", except that it does highlight the absurd extent to which the Hacker News community in general defends Apple right or wrong, while freely calling Google and others "evil" for issues as negligible as a transparent terms of service consolidation. It's well past time for us to stop deifying Apple around here. The future of computing is at stake.
- ralfd 15y ago
  It is in human nature to see things in black&white with vilifying and glorification. And we overvalue intent, when there isn't is one. For example, I don't see them trying that hard in fighting against Jailbreaking. Instead Apple dealings with it are rather practical. They never released updates specifically to stop a JB. They never used legal actions against customers and Apple even hired JB-hackers or borrowed nifty ideas from that scene (notifications, home-screen camera access). I also never did get why some (web?)people are frightened by Apps, but a browser only Chromebook is regarded as a cool thing. I see that as more limiting for the future of computing. Speaking of Google, I do find them to be more "evil", or to use a more precise word "threatening" for the computer industry, because they are aiming for ruling the world. They want to achieve dominance. They want to diversify in different markets. This is only possible with defeating competitors. Even if they have to subsidize products heavily or bordering on unfairly leveraging their search monopoly. Apple is harmless, because they are not aiming for a 95% market share. No, they want to make niche products in the premium segment. In 2007 they had the chance to being the new Microsoft if only they had licensed iOS. They didn't do it. Because they wanted to be like the Ford Motor Company instead of being Standard Oil. The result is a company making three desktop models, two laptop models and basically just one iPhone (in two colors). It is possible to co-exist, even thrive, for competitors when Apple is leading. And they are not really that dangerous in peripheral markets. Far from that! Compare Facebook vs G+ and Ping vs Facebook.
Yhippa 15y ago
Here's a hypothetical situation. What if MGS has a large stake relative to his own wealth in Apple stock. Would it be a bad thing for him to continue to write articles assailing Google and pumping Apple? I don't know if he has any inside knowledge or not but could what he writes which influences many readers who could be potential investors be considered illegal? I really have no idea but if anybody does I'd like to hear it. I get really suspicious when I hear guys like Gruber and Siegler have such strong one-sided opinions about things like this when they reach such a wide audience.
- funkah 15y ago
  Gruber has explicitly stated before that he doesn't own AAPL. I remember him saying this on his podcast so I don't have a link. No idea about Siegler, I wish people would stop paying that guy attention.
- oldstrangers 15y ago
  MG has said a few times that he does not own stock in Apple.
- cooldeal 15y ago
  Gruber makes a lot of money from RSS ads($6500/ad), thus the more he plays to his fan base, the more money he makes. http://daringfireball.net/feeds/sponsors/ http://daringfireball.net/feeds/sponsors/
nutanc 15y ago
Absolutely right. The second article is so hypocritical. His point about Apple being targeted as it was the most successful company is absolutely right. Media has to concentrate on number 1 and being number 1 brings responsibilities. People follow you. If you have sweatshops, then every one will try to do the same.Be the number 1 and do the right thing. It's hard. But guess you can try

huxley 15y ago

You had me up until "No one is going to change their manufacturing practices as long as a company like Apple is reaping in some of the largest profits in recorded history using Foxconn style labor as a foundation." You are doing the exact same thing that you accused MG Siegler of doing, you're minimizing an abuse of workers. I like Apple gear a lot and I'm enough of a fan to hate seeing them getting attacked, but I agree that they need to step up and force Foxconn and their other suppliers to provide as safe working conditions and fair employment as they would if they were in Cupertino. However, if Apple fails to, that doesn't give Samsung, Dell or any other manufacturers a free pass to screw Chinese workers.

oldstrangers 15y ago
Of course it doesn't give the other manufactures a free pass... I'm simply saying that companies will more often than not try to emulate Apple's practices. Apple is in the best position of any company to fix these problems. So in that respect, applying pressure at the top of the corporate food chain isn't an unreasonable thing to do.
- beatle 15y ago
  There is NOTHING a foreign-owned company can do to change something that is so fundamental to China's culture and politics. This is the responsibility of Foxconn and the Chinese Government. This is the norm in China because the Chinese government itself encourages, supports and even demands this kind of labor conditions.
  - sambeau 15y ago
    You have to crush some grapes to make some wine? Mr Otis regrets that his company profits from using sweatshops But to trade with these small countries youve got to afford the pay offs Its not HIM exploiting them, its their own governments, running their countries on bribes. And besides, he pays £10 a month to charity and that will apparently save 5 lives. http://www.myspace.com/scroobiuspip/blog/161467332 http://www.myspace.com/scroobiuspip/blog/161467332 Heard here @15:15: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01b8zvx/Poetry_Please_Music_and_Lyrics/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01b8zvx/Poetry_Please_...
    - beatle 15y ago
      Foxconn is exploiting its workers. not Apple.
  - oldstrangers 15y ago
    You surely can't be that naive. There are numerous things a foreign company can do, such as leaving the country entirely. Threaten to withdraw unless China and Foxconn begin to take these issues more seriously. At $13 billion a quarter in profit and $100 billion in cash, it's not like Apple doesn't have a choice as to where their products are made. Another idea is to offer financial incentives for factories that meet strict safety requirements. Offer them better terms, longer contracts, etc.

Niten 15y ago

Even leaving aside completely the issue of working conditions in the factories that produce all these smartphones running any OS, one could make a strong case that Apple is more "evil" than Google on account of its restrictive policies around iOS. Apple wants a future in which we can't do anything with the devices we own which isn't sanctioned by them. No imagination is required to realize how this will be – and in some cases, already has been – abused by Apple themselves and by the governments which hold sufficient power over the company. Moreover, Apple is abusing the legal system of the United States and other countries, trying to eliminate competitors through bogus patent claims and lobbying for legislation that would make jailbreaking illegal, in order to hasten this future. As others have stated here, I don't think there's great utility in arguing over which company is more "evil", except that it does highlight the absurd extent to which the Hacker News community in general defends Apple right or wrong, while freely calling Google and others "evil" for issues as negligible as a transparent terms of service consolidation. It's well past time for us to stop deifying Apple around here. The future of computing is at stake.

ralfd 15y ago
It is in human nature to see things in black&white with vilifying and glorification. And we overvalue intent, when there isn't is one. For example, I don't see them trying that hard in fighting against Jailbreaking. Instead Apple dealings with it are rather practical. They never released updates specifically to stop a JB. They never used legal actions against customers and Apple even hired JB-hackers or borrowed nifty ideas from that scene (notifications, home-screen camera access). I also never did get why some (web?)people are frightened by Apps, but a browser only Chromebook is regarded as a cool thing. I see that as more limiting for the future of computing. Speaking of Google, I do find them to be more "evil", or to use a more precise word "threatening" for the computer industry, because they are aiming for ruling the world. They want to achieve dominance. They want to diversify in different markets. This is only possible with defeating competitors. Even if they have to subsidize products heavily or bordering on unfairly leveraging their search monopoly. Apple is harmless, because they are not aiming for a 95% market share. No, they want to make niche products in the premium segment. In 2007 they had the chance to being the new Microsoft if only they had licensed iOS. They didn't do it. Because they wanted to be like the Ford Motor Company instead of being Standard Oil. The result is a company making three desktop models, two laptop models and basically just one iPhone (in two colors). It is possible to co-exist, even thrive, for competitors when Apple is leading. And they are not really that dangerous in peripheral markets. Far from that! Compare Facebook vs G+ and Ping vs Facebook.

Yhippa 15y ago

Here's a hypothetical situation. What if MGS has a large stake relative to his own wealth in Apple stock. Would it be a bad thing for him to continue to write articles assailing Google and pumping Apple? I don't know if he has any inside knowledge or not but could what he writes which influences many readers who could be potential investors be considered illegal? I really have no idea but if anybody does I'd like to hear it. I get really suspicious when I hear guys like Gruber and Siegler have such strong one-sided opinions about things like this when they reach such a wide audience.

funkah 15y ago
Gruber has explicitly stated before that he doesn't own AAPL. I remember him saying this on his podcast so I don't have a link. No idea about Siegler, I wish people would stop paying that guy attention.
oldstrangers 15y ago
MG has said a few times that he does not own stock in Apple.
cooldeal 15y ago
Gruber makes a lot of money from RSS ads($6500/ad), thus the more he plays to his fan base, the more money he makes. http://daringfireball.net/feeds/sponsors/ http://daringfireball.net/feeds/sponsors/

nutanc 15y ago

Absolutely right. The second article is so hypocritical. His point about Apple being targeted as it was the most successful company is absolutely right. Media has to concentrate on number 1 and being number 1 brings responsibilities. People follow you. If you have sweatshops, then every one will try to do the same.Be the number 1 and do the right thing. It's hard. But guess you can try