6 ms·

Interesting. Do you think regular employees don't have employment contracts?

by killingtime74 4y ago

jmclnx 4y ago
Not in my fortune 500 company :) I signed nothing when I was hired.
- jimnotgym 4y ago
  Wow, in what country? Switzerland?
- troad 4y ago
  That would be very uncommon / probably illegal in Europe. If there's one thing Europeans love, it's paperwork!
  - burkaman 4y ago
    It's very uncommon in the US too, and I'm having a hard time believing it could be true at a Fortune 500 company. Big companies go through all kinds of audits and certifications that would definitely require all employees to sign contracts and NDAs.
    - johncessna 4y ago
      Employment contracts, especially for white collar work, are rare in the US. Signing NDAs and acknowledging that you've read the handbook, while common, are not employment contracts.
      - burkaman 4y ago
        Interesting. I've always at least signed an offer letter, which is a contract laying out what the job is, how much I'll be paid, specifying at-will employment, etc. I'm sure European contracts are more involved, but I don't think I would ever take a job without the employer at least agreeing to pay me in writing.
      - lazide 4y ago
        While not employment contracts, they are contracts related to, and typically required for employment.
  - goodlinks 4y ago
    Ive only signed a couple of contacts ever, where the company really wanted it and were not forgetting. I may be wrong but the offer letter is enough to insist your first paycheck and from there on in its obvious the company thinks you are an employee therefor subject to all employment law, most of which is about not changing the staus quo without due process. E.g. In the EU holiday pay cannot be lower than the previous 13 wk average doesnt matter what your contract says. Employment law as far as i have seen in the UK (thanks to the EU) is all you are ever going to get anyway in any tight situation. Anything else in a contract is likely only gling to be an attempt to reduce that liability (which then in turn often invalidates the whole thing anyways).
    - troad 4y ago
      UK law is common law, which is different from the civil law systems practised in continental Europe. Importantly, the theory of contract differs - in the UK anything can be a contract, provided there’s certain elements like an exchange (the legal term is consideration). This isn’t the case on the continent, where contracts must fit into prescribed types. Working without a contract would be so utterly alien to the mindset here on the continent. If you don’t have a work contract, which of the seventy-four different pension schemes do you fall under? How do you register your new job with your mandatory “public” health insurance? What social security ‘status’ is recorded for you in the centralised national register of inhabitants? I mean, I recently needed a notarised copy of my rental contract just to register my change of address with the government, which is mandatory here every time you move. This is not a system that deals well with “yeah, I don’t have any papers for that”.
- nix23 4y ago
  [dead]
- tremon 4y ago
  How did you know that you were hired, and what your pay or hours would be?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- lazide 4y ago
  Not even an NDA? Or to acknowledged receiving an employee manual/whatever? Sounds like someone in HR is going to get fired soon!
- tzs 4y ago
  Employment contracts are not required to be signed, or even in writing. You almost certainly do in fact have an employment contract.
jjallen 4y ago
Pretty much every employee has a contract in Switzerland. It is a document that governs the relationship between employer and employee. Not sure how things would work without one. It’s a very standard practice. Source: I live in and own a company in Switzerland.
- TylerE 4y ago
  Spoiler: It does not work well for the employee, in most cases.
- fweimer 4y ago
  In Germany, there's no requirement for a written employment contract. The contract is formed implicitly if the employee keeps showing up for work, and the employer keeps paying them. Most employers use written contracts to override some legal defaults where this is permitted (e.g., symmetric notice periods instead of the default asymmetry favoring the employee). But the law is written in such a way that you don't necessarily have to do this.
  - config_yml 4y ago
    Same in Switzerland
alistairSH 4y ago
It's probably not so much the existence of a contract, but the contents and specificity of any contract. In the US, most employees below VP or director, will have very generic employment contracts. I've been at my employer for 20+ years and haven't signed a contract since I was hired, even through one merger and several PE acquisitions. I haven't signed anything about my normal salary either - they send me a notice every year when raises are granted and my reading it is treated as acceptance. My bonus is loosely based on company financials, and subject to board and executive approval. As far as I know, the pay-out schedule isn't set in stone either. I have no doubt that if the company failed, I wouldn't see a penny of any unpaid bonus. I'm not sure that's true for executives, who often have individual contracts with more specifics about bonuses, whether they be cash, stock, or something else. Such is life in an at-will state.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  VP at a bank is basically just a checkbox. Depending on the subset of banking you work in basically everyone is a VP because everyone needs that title in order to do their jobs without running afoul of the regulations. These people will have cookie cutter employment contracts if any.
  - alistairSH 4y ago
    Yeah, my comment was based on my experience in the software world. It's definitely true that there area lot of VPs of one variety or another at banks, even for individual contributors. Super weird, but it's been that way forever.
    - btilly 4y ago
      I've been told that the reason is because some subset of CEOs get offended at being shuffled off to a low ranking employee. So they get to meet VPs and are happy, without realizing where said VP really was in the org chart. I don't know how true this is, but i was told it by my brother about 20 years ago, who at the time was a (low ranking) VP at a bank.

Interesting. Do you think regular employees don't have employment contracts?

jmclnx 4y ago

Not in my fortune 500 company :) I signed nothing when I was hired.

jimnotgym 4y ago
Wow, in what country? Switzerland?
troad 4y ago
That would be very uncommon / probably illegal in Europe. If there's one thing Europeans love, it's paperwork!
- burkaman 4y ago
  It's very uncommon in the US too, and I'm having a hard time believing it could be true at a Fortune 500 company. Big companies go through all kinds of audits and certifications that would definitely require all employees to sign contracts and NDAs.
  - johncessna 4y ago
    Employment contracts, especially for white collar work, are rare in the US. Signing NDAs and acknowledging that you've read the handbook, while common, are not employment contracts.
    - burkaman 4y ago
      Interesting. I've always at least signed an offer letter, which is a contract laying out what the job is, how much I'll be paid, specifying at-will employment, etc. I'm sure European contracts are more involved, but I don't think I would ever take a job without the employer at least agreeing to pay me in writing.
    - lazide 4y ago
      While not employment contracts, they are contracts related to, and typically required for employment.
- goodlinks 4y ago
  Ive only signed a couple of contacts ever, where the company really wanted it and were not forgetting. I may be wrong but the offer letter is enough to insist your first paycheck and from there on in its obvious the company thinks you are an employee therefor subject to all employment law, most of which is about not changing the staus quo without due process. E.g. In the EU holiday pay cannot be lower than the previous 13 wk average doesnt matter what your contract says. Employment law as far as i have seen in the UK (thanks to the EU) is all you are ever going to get anyway in any tight situation. Anything else in a contract is likely only gling to be an attempt to reduce that liability (which then in turn often invalidates the whole thing anyways).
  - troad 4y ago
    UK law is common law, which is different from the civil law systems practised in continental Europe. Importantly, the theory of contract differs - in the UK anything can be a contract, provided there’s certain elements like an exchange (the legal term is consideration). This isn’t the case on the continent, where contracts must fit into prescribed types. Working without a contract would be so utterly alien to the mindset here on the continent. If you don’t have a work contract, which of the seventy-four different pension schemes do you fall under? How do you register your new job with your mandatory “public” health insurance? What social security ‘status’ is recorded for you in the centralised national register of inhabitants? I mean, I recently needed a notarised copy of my rental contract just to register my change of address with the government, which is mandatory here every time you move. This is not a system that deals well with “yeah, I don’t have any papers for that”.
nix23 4y ago
[dead]
tremon 4y ago
How did you know that you were hired, and what your pay or hours would be?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
lazide 4y ago
Not even an NDA? Or to acknowledged receiving an employee manual/whatever? Sounds like someone in HR is going to get fired soon!
tzs 4y ago
Employment contracts are not required to be signed, or even in writing. You almost certainly do in fact have an employment contract.

jjallen 4y ago

Pretty much every employee has a contract in Switzerland. It is a document that governs the relationship between employer and employee. Not sure how things would work without one. It’s a very standard practice. Source: I live in and own a company in Switzerland.

TylerE 4y ago
Spoiler: It does not work well for the employee, in most cases.
fweimer 4y ago
In Germany, there's no requirement for a written employment contract. The contract is formed implicitly if the employee keeps showing up for work, and the employer keeps paying them. Most employers use written contracts to override some legal defaults where this is permitted (e.g., symmetric notice periods instead of the default asymmetry favoring the employee). But the law is written in such a way that you don't necessarily have to do this.
- config_yml 4y ago
  Same in Switzerland

alistairSH 4y ago

It's probably not so much the existence of a contract, but the contents and specificity of any contract. In the US, most employees below VP or director, will have very generic employment contracts. I've been at my employer for 20+ years and haven't signed a contract since I was hired, even through one merger and several PE acquisitions. I haven't signed anything about my normal salary either - they send me a notice every year when raises are granted and my reading it is treated as acceptance. My bonus is loosely based on company financials, and subject to board and executive approval. As far as I know, the pay-out schedule isn't set in stone either. I have no doubt that if the company failed, I wouldn't see a penny of any unpaid bonus. I'm not sure that's true for executives, who often have individual contracts with more specifics about bonuses, whether they be cash, stock, or something else. Such is life in an at-will state.

dsfyu404ed 4y ago
VP at a bank is basically just a checkbox. Depending on the subset of banking you work in basically everyone is a VP because everyone needs that title in order to do their jobs without running afoul of the regulations. These people will have cookie cutter employment contracts if any.
- alistairSH 4y ago
  Yeah, my comment was based on my experience in the software world. It's definitely true that there area lot of VPs of one variety or another at banks, even for individual contributors. Super weird, but it's been that way forever.
  - btilly 4y ago
    I've been told that the reason is because some subset of CEOs get offended at being shuffled off to a low ranking employee. So they get to meet VPs and are happy, without realizing where said VP really was in the org chart. I don't know how true this is, but i was told it by my brother about 20 years ago, who at the time was a (low ranking) VP at a bank.